Character specific Counter Pick Stages for and against Falco

Ok, so I need info ASAP on Counter Pick stages and I don't feel like waiting for the match-up thread to hit every character so this thread is for what stages to CP for certain chars. Keep in mind this will likely not be a full-proof Char CP list and you should use some judgment based on your opponent's style of play, but this will hopefully account for the obvious char stat advantages and disadvantages.
Let's also take a look at what each char is likely to CP against Falco so that we can know what to be prepared for and also what stage to ban to hurt their play the most.

Please contribute what you think should be CP'ed or what will likely be CP'ed against Falco if you have ample prior experience with that character or good factual character stats to back up why you think so. Please no "CP this stage because I always play my friend's "character" and he sucks at it".

Char.
Counter picks in order from best CP option to worst CP option (it should still be good since it's a CP)
Opponent's likely CP's in order from Falco's worst stage to best stage
stages that might belong in this list but have not yet been thoroughly confirmed

Bowser
-JJapes, FD
-Norfair

C. Falcon
-JJapes, FD
-BF, Luigi's Mansion, Delfino

Diddy Kong
-JJapes, BF
-FD

Donkey Kong
-FD, JJapes
-Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar, Corneria, JJapes

Falco ... ... ...
-
-

Fox
-FD, JJapes
-

Ganondorf
-JJapes, FD
-

Ice Climbers
-Rainbow
-

Ike
-JJapes, FD
-Lylat, Green Greens

Jigglypuff
-, JJapes
-Delfino, Halberd, Rainbow

King Dedede
-JJapes, FD
-Delfino

Kirby
-
-Rainbow, Delfino, Halberd

Link
-JJapes
-

Lucario
-Green Greens Smashville
-Frigate Orpheon, Luigi's Mansion

Lucas
-JJapes
-Norfair, Brinstar

Luigi
-JJapes
-Rainbow Cruise, BF

Mario
-
-

Marth
-JJapes, FD
-, BF

Meta Knight
-JJapes, FD
-Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, Halber, Lylat

Mr. Game & Watch
-JJapes
-Rainbow Cruise, Frigate

Ness
-JJapes, FD
-

Olimar
-JJapes, FD, Frigate
-Norfair

Peach
-JJapes
-

Pikachu
-JJapes
-

Pit
-JJapes, Yoshi's Island
-Norfair, Delfino, Halberd, Lylat

Pokemon Trainer
-JJapes, FD
-

R.O.B.
-Green Greens
-Frigate, Delfino Plaza, Port Town, Halberd, Lylat

Samus
-JJapes
-Lylat, Delfino, Norfair, BF

Sheik
-JJapes, FD
-

Snake
-JJapes, FD, Luigi's Mansion
-Brinstar, Luigi's Mansion

Sonic
-JJapes
-Frigate

Toon Link
-JJapes, Green Greens
-Lylat

Wario
-JJapes FD
-Brinstar, BF, Corneria

Wolf
-FD, JJapes
-Brinstar, Pirate Ship, Norfair

Yoshi
-JJapes FD, BF
-

Zelda
-JJapes
-

Zero Suit Samus
-
-

I put JJapes first on all Chain grabbable characters who can normally survive after the Dair spike ending. Chars like Fox and Wolf I put FD first because the CG to Dair spike at the end is a guaranteed kill with proper edge-hog usage, while at JJapes they can possibly jump out of the water.
Lucario I put on Green Greens since it has the same staggered stage height as JJapes to help our SHDL and the blast zones are close which means Lucario will die earlier so that the aura boost doesn't help him too much.
I also put ROB on Green Greens since the CG into the water at JJapes won't work, Green Greens gives Falco good laser opportunity and ROB's awesome recovery is made somewhat obsolete since there isn't much space between the stage and the blastzone.

Just remember that Greens Greens is banned in a few tournaments, but I like your idea of it being a nice counterpick against ROB and Lucario. Also you should remove Jjapes from ROB's stage list.

Against Pit I would also recommend yoshi's island because the shy guys stop arrow spam, ban Halberd and Delfino. Also ban these stages against MK because both of these characters just love attacking from underneath.

Ban Lylat Cruise against Toon Link, he'll simply outcamp you because your lasers will be hindered by the tilting stage, not to mention your recovery will be messed up here. As for a CP... I would probably recommend Jjapes because TL's camping game is hindered by the stage layout, whereas falco's laser game is boosted.

Against DK the best CP would be FD, a chaingrab to spike should result in DK being too low to recover from the dair.

That's all I have to add for now, will add more when I have time

Let me say this in the DK match up.
Dk's likey CP's or maybe its just me would be
Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, and Corneria. But that last one is more of a personally pick

DK ***** on Brinstar
Ban the Pirate Ship vs Wolf

I haven't played Falco for long enough to contribute much here, but I know that if it's not banned at a tourney DO NOT play on Norfair. No room to chaingrab, impossible to laser spam, and your ability to punish an approach gets destroyed.

Vlade said:

Just remember that Greens Greens is banned in a few tournaments, but I like your idea of it being a nice counterpick against ROB and Lucario. Also you should remove Jjapes from ROB's stage list.

Against Pit I would also recommend yoshi's island because the shy guys stop arrow spam, ban Halberd and Delfino. Also ban these stages against MK because both of these characters just love attacking from underneath.

Ban Lylat Cruise against Toon Link, he'll simply outcamp you because your lasers will be hindered by the tilting stage, not to mention your recovery will be messed up here. As for a CP... I would probably recommend Jjapes because TL's camping game is hindered by the stage layout, whereas falco's laser game is boosted.

Against DK the best CP would be FD, a chaingrab to spike should result in DK being too low to recover from the dair.

That's all I have to add for now, will add more when I have time

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Put Halberd, Delfino, and Rainbow on the list for MK, Pit, D3, Jiggs, ROB and Kirby since they can all abuse their awesome multiple jumps on Rainbow, and can attack from below stage on halberd and Delfino. I also added Lylat to a few of these since their recovery doesn't get screwed up like Falco's does ( a plus for them and a minus for Falco)
I put Delfino as ROB's first CP since there are wall that come in where he can Dtilt lock you infinitely until they disappear (which could mean death if he times it perfectly) You can also LL ROB inifinitely but the Dtilt lock is much easier to set up.
Put Yoshi's Island in white since the slanted ground will hurt falco's laser game and not hurt pit's arrows, the shy guys also hurt Falco's lasers and are not even in the way very often
Followed your TL advice.
In my experience DK can recover from the CG > Dair spike, but I added it anyways for now.

KoSa! said:

Let me say this in the DK match up.
Dk's likey CP's or maybe its just me would be
Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, and Corneria. But that last one is more of a personally pick

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Made Luigi's Mansion DK's best CP since it interrupts lasers and has quite a large blastzone that allows you to destroy falco's awful recovery. Also added Corneria. JJapes I am unsure about since the DK I played at a tourney also told me I just CP'ed for him, but then my lasers ended up completely destroying him, and he had to resort to risky things like using UpB under the platforms to move around. Right now I'm thinking it's a better CP for falco than against, but DK's seem to like it. (which means they will have some experience on it, expect them to be able to jump out of the water)

Gheb_01 said:

DK ***** on Brinstar
Ban the Pirate Ship vs Wolf

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Brinstar is currently DK's 2nd best CP since the lava will actually help falco's recovery rather than let him fall to his death, still is generally against Falco though.
Put Pirate ship in white because reasons were not provided.

8AngeL8 said:

I haven't played Falco for long enough to contribute much here, but I know that if it's not banned at a tourney DO NOT play on Norfair. No room to chaingrab, impossible to laser spam, and your ability to punish an approach gets destroyed.

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Indeed Norfair is a bad Falco stage, but I haven't thought of any characters that really gain an advantage form it yet, so maybe at the end I'll go around and tack Norfair on to the last spot of most Chars' CP against Falco

If you think any of the multiple entries should be rearranged just post why you think so (because it's supposed to move from most extreme to least extreme (and we're basically saying to ban the first anti-falco CP)).

Good work so far guys, keep it coming

Reasons, why you should avoid Pirate Ship vs Wolf:

Lots of platforms + uneven ground = extremely limited CG options
Lots of remote platforms = very limited laser spam
Water = limited spikes
Rather Small stage = Dsmash slaughters Falco

Pit, good against Falco at Delfino, Halberd, and Lylat? I really should learn to adapt to those stages quickly.


But I really have thought about Norfair being good for Pit.

-Small Platforms weaken Falco's Chaingrabbing ability

-Pit's Controllable arrows are good there. Shooting one under or above Falco's Reflector will hit him, and not the reflector.

-Angel Ring could be useful here due to the small platforms, and if used on ground, can be used to Slide down that platform and to the next one below, but I really don't use it much.

-Pit can freely glide/fly around the stage at will. Can be used for stalls or camping. He can glide under the stage should the Lava pool below isnt high enough.

-If the lava below is high enough, the lava will send Pit back up if Falco spikes him, negating Spiking. This includes Pit's D-tilt spike having that disadvantage, but Pit doesn't land much D-tilt spikes in actual matches anyways.

-Pit can use Mirror Shield to block the Lavafalls that come at the left or right of the stage, though Falco can just shoot him with a blaster. I suppose it's not a good thing.

-Pit has many options to avoid the Hazards of the level. Mirror Shielding the Lava blasts that come from behind and the Lavafalls as mentioned above, Up-B above the Large Lava Wave to avoid damage.

-Pit can "hop" platforms by going under them, and using Up-B close to the platform to quickly grab on to it. In addition, Pit can do damage by delivering U-airs right under the platforms. He can use these platforms for multiple purposes to his advantage and can be for stalling and camping as well.

What do you think?

I also want to add that as far as neutrals go, a lot of people I practice against complain about Battlefield when I play Falco. You can camp a side, and force them to approach with the platforms. If they come from straight above, uair -> bair. If they come straight on, AAA -> reflector -> illusion to reset on the other side. From diagonal, SH nair seems to work wonders.

It's probably not Falco's BEST stage, but it's definitely not a bad one for him either.

I have finished going over all the all the other character boards and putting any stages they have as CP's against Falco in either white or red.
The exception to this is when I see JJapes for a character that Falco can CG, I just laughed at those.

J4pu said:

I have finished going over all the all the other character boards and putting any stages they have as CP's against Falco in either white or red.
The exception to this is when I see JJapes for a character that Falco can CG, I just laughed at those.

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And that CG makes me an angry (or frightened) angel should I ever get caught in it, and it happens to me a lot.
Thankfully Norfair is Not Fair... For Falco that is.

i'm gonna use this thread to ask a noobish question: on delfino when you phantasm to grab the ledge how do you avoid falco going through it and falling to his death which happens 2/3 of the time for me?

sandwhale said:

i'm gonna use this thread to ask a noobish question: on delfino when you phantasm to grab the ledge how do you avoid falco going through it and falling to his death which happens 2/3 of the time for me?

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You just have to know the right height to do it at. If you're falling through the platforms, you're doing it just a tad too high, I think. As it is, you're phantasming high enough that the game thinks you're on top of the platform and doesn't sweetspot you, but then you're partially through it so it just lets you fall to your doom. You need to be either high enough so that NO part of falco is below (or inside?) the stage, OR low enough so that you sweetspot. I can't get you any more specific info than that, sadly - don't know what part of falco needs to be even with the platform to get it. Probably you want the platform at head height or so for optimal sweetspotting, but don't quote me on that, play around and see.

It used to be a big problem for me too, but recently I've gotten a hang of it and don't mind playing on Delfino anymore.

ftl said:

You just have to know the right height to do it at. If you're falling through the platforms, you're doing it just a tad too high, I think. As it is, you're phantasming high enough that the game thinks you're on top of the platform and doesn't sweetspot you, but then you're partially through it so it just lets you fall to your doom. You need to be either high enough so that NO part of falco is below (or inside?) the stage, OR low enough so that you sweetspot. I can't get you any more specific info than that, sadly - don't know what part of falco needs to be even with the platform to get it. Probably you want the platform at head height or so for optimal sweetspotting, but don't quote me on that, play around and see.

It used to be a big problem for me too, but recently I've gotten a hang of it and don't mind playing on Delfino anymore.

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this is correct

thanks that helped

Ok so I made some additions, tell me what you think:
I added FD in blue to many characters that have average recovery and don't really gain much from FD's flatness; I added FD in white as a CP Diddy may have against Falco since the banana locks are kind of brutal once they start; I added FD in white as a CP for Falco against MK, Yoshi, and Wario since I'm not sure who it helps more falco get's a big flat stage for lasering but they get to make use of their above average recoveries (and yes Yoshi has a very good recovery when used correctly)
I added BF in white for Falco against Diddy since bananas will get stuck on platforms, but Falco can still use lasers and CG to his full advantage.
I added JJapes in blue against some non-chaingrabbable chars like Samus and Luigi since they gain nothing from the stage and also their ability to kill off the top which is a large part of their kills, gets messed up, we also get the benefit of perfect platform for lasering. I added JJapes in white for Falco CP against Zelda and Jiggs because their killing ability off the top is hurt but they dont get completely destroyed by the stage: Zelda has lightning kicks for side kills though so I'm not sure about that, and Jiggs can DownB above water and then fall into it to wake-up, jiggs can also fly under the stages pretty well to avoid lasers, but this risks getting hit by the Klap-trap or w/e that creature from Donkey Kong is called.
I added Brinstar in red as a CP for Snake against Falco since I've heard they like it and I know we don't.
I added Luigi's Mansion in white as a CP for and against Snake since I know they can control the house pretty well, but I believe our lasers will destroy their camping style in that confined flat layout, our CG should still work and both of our Upward kills will be taken out of the picture, I'm really thinking it's a better CP for Falco but I've seen snakes pick it before (not against Falco though)
I added Rainbow Cruise in white for Falco's CP against IC because I hate IC's and I couldn't think of anything else

Please comment on what you think about the stages listed in white since they are temporary and we should figure out where they should really be placed.

I think it depends on the way the user uses falco. If he's into aerial attacks, a stage with platforms. Visa-versa

If you have your chain grab, you can kill with it at rediculously low percentages (36%-50% easy) on Castle Siege. The second iteration, you chaingrab until you're off the screen, and time another grab and do a forward through. Or fshash.

As for Delphino, I usually don't try to sweetspot the ledge, but when I do I seem to nail it. *shrug* I guess it's kind of like driving a stick... gotta 'feel' it.

Delfino is bad because some characters can play like a shark on under the platforms so you just have to wait it out until the stage changes
then some characters like ROB and Fox have pretty easy infinite locks they can set up on some parts where there are walls
Yes CG off the side of a stage is possible in Delfino and Castle seige but anybody who knows what they are doing would stay off the ground in castle until it changes and stay in the middle of the stage at the delfino parts until their percent is over 35
The CG off the side of the stage is more of a strategy for D3's CG than it is for Falco's

Yoshi's Island is a pretty good Counter pick against Sonic. The Platform ruins his Homing Attack for the most part and can screw up any of his Up-B -> Dair approaches

against lucas ban norfair/brinstar
because: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199159&page=2

The only stage I ban, in a tourney that allows bans for a set is Lylat cruise. It's the worst, those shifting ledges screw me up so bad. I can't see what is so wrong with Norfair I usually do fairly well the platforms help me and you don't chain grab across a whole stage a walking chain grab doesn't really go that far.

norfair and brinstar added for Lucas CP agaisnt Falco

I just thought I'd mention that Olimar does very well on Norfair, while falco certainly does not. There are multiple ledges for olimar to grab onto with his tether, so we can't get early gimps against him. However a stage that Olimar does very poorly on is Frigate Orpheon, but I'm not really sure if falco does very well on this stage either. Olimar does not do very well because there is only one edge to grab onto - but I still think that FD or JJapes are probably the best choices against an olimar.

Olimar gets Norfair
Falco has Frigate in white (a weak cp is what white means atm)

I think that Lylat should be added as a counterpick AGAINST Falco for every char. That is probably his absolute worst stage.

Can someone get a Mod to close this? there is a newer and updated version of this thread that is stickied