Match-Up Discussion #18: Toon Link

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 6, 2008

It's Toon Link time...

He's annoying, that's for sure but most ppl say the same about Wolf ...
He has a good collection of projectiles but Shine is a good friend here. His bair is as good as Wolfs but his overall aerial game is a bit better, since he has more options, with the boomerand and the bombs. Wolf however wins on the ground, where his speed and range give Toon Link troubles. Toon Link has troubles finishing but has an awesome recovery...

Lots of stuff to say here, I find it a very interesting match-up

50:50 I guess...

Discuss

Sesshomuronay · Oct 6, 2008

Gah I hate toom link. Something about him just pisses me off, well anyways its pretty even and more of a battle of skill than character matchupedness. 50:50 imo.

Ishiey · Oct 6, 2008

There are few matchups I hate more than this one. His bair is REALLY annoying, but as you said, if used properly, shine will be invaluable in this matchup. Shine his projectiles and all of his close quarter moves (IMO his range isn't too great on most moves), shine his QD arrows, watch out for z dropped bombs, all that stuff. People should try rolling out of reflector, it might be useful in this matchup but I haven't tried it before so I wouldn't know. His recovery is pretty good too, decent horizontal movement and a tether recovery help a lot here. I'd go with slight advantage for TL, but I'm not sure, don't have too much experience in this matchup.

Collective of Bears · Oct 6, 2008

I think it's 55:45, Toon Link with the advantage. Wolf outclasses Toon on the ground, but Toon rules the air. Shining is a good way to handle things, and so is your Blaster. I don't recommend Spiking here, since TL's Uair outranges Wolf's Dair Spike.

Sosuke · Oct 6, 2008

The radius of Toon Link's bombs explosion can hit you if the throws a bomb in front of Wolf when hes using reflector. So just try to avoid bomb instead of using reflector.

Watch out for Toon Link's Zair, as it leads to many things.

Bair screws you over don't get behind him.

Reflect his boomerang if you can, very crucial.

If you get offstage, get back on as soon as you can.

The thread Toon Links were discussing Wolf in:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182154

VietGeek · Oct 6, 2008

Toon Link will have an easier time at lower percents racking damage than Wolf, but will have trouble killing due to Wolf's weight. Gimps are necessary.

Wolf on the other hand can rack damage up well, as well as have little trouble killing with Dsmash and such. However, Toon Link has the superior range game due to Zair, and has a better recovery. You'll likely be focusing on straight on kills rather than gimps most of the time.

I'd say 60:40 Wolf or 55:45 Wolf. The two have certain traits that force them to be at an equilibrium with one another.

Ishiey · Oct 6, 2008

VietGeek, I just want to say I love your avatar.

What are some common follow-ups from zair? And if TL can glide toss, any common follow-ups from that?

JCav · Oct 6, 2008

id say 50:50

sure tls projectile game beats out wolf but wolf can ko tl fairly easy.

idk, ive never had trouble here so id say its even

VietGeek · Oct 6, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
VietGeek, I just want to say I love your avatar.

What are some common follow-ups from zair? And if TL can glide toss, any common follow-ups from that?

Common follow-ups:

Nair
Usmash
bomb/boomerang
another Zair, lol
bomb -> Usmash or Nair/Fair (if you DI up, Fair becomes more viable)

A lot of stuff. But most of it only works at lower percents. At higher percents, you can DI down and shield or something and punish. A good Toon Link will try to not get too aggro against Wolf since Wolf's punishment game is excellent.

Toon Link cannot glidetoss, he can jump cancel toss, but it's usually used in retreat or to get rid of lag from throwing it from a normal dash. The only follow-up I can think of is Nair, since he can't slide too far in unless he wants to get hit by the explosion too.

Zair and Toon Link's ability to harass Wolf offstage is what makes this match near even. I am happy with 50:50, 55:45/60:40 Wolf. I however cannot see Toon Link having too much of an advantage. Wolf has Fsmash, phantasm, and reflector if he really needs to reset the situation. Toon Link works a lot off momentum, but if you stop that, it's hard to continue on, but Wolf I feel can start up momentum quite well.

Thanks for the avatar comment, I worked 10 minutes on it. ^_^

Ris747 · Oct 6, 2008

From my experience whilst fighting Toon Link I think that Wolf has the slight advantage here. My friend always uses Toon Link, and I play with him pretty much exclusively. I have found that your range can pretty much shut him down and keep the b-airs flying and you can keep him out, just don't try to spike him, you'll get hit by his uair. Also, my friend doesn't use the bombs alot, so I don't worry about them too much, though I'm sure that if he used them more it would be a harder match. But Wolf's range wins this for me 60:40, Wolf's favor I say!

ElPadrino · Oct 6, 2008

@Sasukebowser:
The match up thread on the TL forums is ridiculous.

As for the actual matchup, TL has the air for himself, Wolf dominates the ground.

I think this matchup is more about who has the best skill and who plays smarter, I mean if toon link plays a ground game the matchup would go as far as 70:30 Wolf, and if Wolf want to play all Aerial it would be the same but in TL favor.

So I say 50:50.

VietGeek · Oct 6, 2008

ElPadrino said:
@Sasukebowser:
The match up thread on the TL forums is ridiculous.

This is what happens when you're left to discuss an oddity such as Wolf by your lonesome with a bunch of others that have never seen Wolves in their life, 'cuz they're endangered and stuff.

The collaboration we have now would help work out the kinks in our discussion thread too.

Sosuke · Oct 6, 2008

Is that referring to me Viet? >_>;

You guys are welcome to go in there and point out mistakes, I'd be better for the general discussion for these two characters anyway.

Captain Sa10 · Oct 6, 2008

In my opinion, this matchup is about 50/50

For one, TL can definetly out camp you, let alone out spam you, so dont expect to win in that fight. Im pretty sure Wolf's aerial game is well more rounded then TL's, and can be extremely effective if combined with proper spacing since TL's aerials have a bit more reach(fair, nair, and bair). You can sheild>reflector TL's Dair and the next follow up after the sheild hit with a reflector. When it comes to the grounded game you have to watch your self since his D-smash and f-smash are just as deadly as yours, same with some of his tilts like U-tilt. If anything, look for those well placed spot-dodges and punish him for it afterwards. D-tilt is also going to come into heavy play as well. Recovery wise, you have to watch yourself. When he goes for the dair, try and stall it or if your fast enough, semi-scar back to the stage ASAP, for not only a quick dodge, but a kill as well (i've dont it to many TL's that go straight for the Bair>bair>Dair combo, so not only do I recover but they punish themselves horribly afterwards).

Sosuke · Oct 6, 2008

(just to make it clear, Toon Link can't kill for crap)

Captain Sa10 · Oct 6, 2008

sasukebowser said:
(just to make it clear, Toon Link can't kill for crap)

True, but still, you can take out someone who's never played a good TL probably just as easy as wolf players could.

Darth JoBak · Oct 7, 2008

just to restate it for all, shine shine shine!

I have a bunch of experience vs TL and in the air the shine is your friend, you can even use it to turn around for a bair if you are falling from high enough off the ground

tyler___ · Oct 8, 2008

Toon Link is fairly light and can be KOd at a pretty low percentage. His bair is good but I'm not sure I'd classify his air game as better than Wolf's. Lcanceled Fairs and bairs can definitely swing with his. Shine as usual against all his projectiles and that's all I can say

45:55 Wolf's favor.

Sosuke · Oct 8, 2008

tyler___ said:
Lcanceled

this just needed to be quoted.

1337_w01f · Oct 9, 2008

no way in hell is toon links air game better than wolfs lool. wolfs bair has bigger range than toon links bair and priority-wise they are both similar so wolf wins in the bair area, wolfs fair has enormous priority as well as good kill potential specially for a light char lyk toon link, the only thing i wuld b worried bout when vsing toon link r his zair and his dair other than that wolf has more range and more priority than toon link in general so 60:40 for me wolf favor

Wayland · Oct 9, 2008

1337_w01f said:
no way in hell is toon links air game better than wolfs lool. wolfs bair has bigger range than toon links bair and priority-wise they are both similar so wolf wins in the bair area, wolfs fair has enormous priority as well as good kill potential specially for a light char lyk toon link, the only thing i wuld b worried bout when vsing toon link r his zair and his dair other than that wolf has more range and more priority than toon link in general so 60:40 for me wolf favor

It's not all about range and priority. Toon Link's Bair is a superb combo set up, and his projectiles give him even more options in the air. TL also has excellent aerial mobility. He owns the skies in this matchup. Wolf's got a good aerial game, but in general, I feel like his aerials in this match up are better off used to improve his solid ground game, with shffing and stuff.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

Fighting Tink in the air isn't reccomended...Wolf doesn't win in the air

alejo_ · Oct 10, 2008

i have lots of problems with this match up, mainly because of toon link dair. Makes it harder for me to take it into the air successfully

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 10, 2008

Just airdodge or shield it, if you think he uses it. Predicting moves is a major part of the battle

1337_w01f · Oct 11, 2008

tru toon link has decent combo set ups but ultimately a set up is useless if its stopped, a decent wolf can usually stop a toon link bair combo pretty easy and projectiles arent that much of an issue if u have decent timing with your shine, im only really worried bout toon links zair and dair which can pretty much destroy w/e air game wolf has lol

Shady Penguin · Oct 11, 2008

I'd have to agree with 50:50 or the match-up slightly being in Wolf's favor.

The KO situation is too much against TL for him to have the advantage.

Darth JoBak · Oct 15, 2008

^agree, weight advantage matters here

advantage wolf, 60/55:40/45

my opinion after three straight hours of playing a good TL is that my opinion shouldnt count on this because I got in his head and he couldnt get me out

Ragenzen_Zaruko · Feb 18, 2010

I have extreme experience between Toon Link and Wolf. His range is **** when you're in mid-air (but fighting him in mid-air is my misfortune for being hit up by his U-smash). I'd probably say your best bet when fighting him is to shine his range. If you get the chance to grab him, make sure you always throw down, that way you can either set up a f-smash or, if he techs (there's always a chance that he can), d-smash. Like I said before, being in air with him completely wrecks Wolf. Toon Link's range can go through/over/under your blaster, so it's pretty limited/useless at times.

This is a pretty good match-up as long as you stay out of the air. I'd say this is 55-45 Toon Link's favor.

Seagull Joe · Feb 18, 2010

Ragenzen_Zaruko said:
I have extreme experience between Toon Link and Wolf. His range is **** when you're in mid-air (but fighting him in mid-air is my misfortune for being hit up by his U-smash). I'd probably say your best bet when fighting him is to shine his range. If you get the chance to grab him, make sure you always throw down, that way you can either set up a f-smash or, if he techs (there's always a chance that he can), d-smash. Like I said before, being in air with him completely wrecks Wolf. Toon Link's range can go through/over/under your blaster, so it's pretty limited/useless at times.

This is a pretty good match-up as long as you stay out of the air. I'd say this is 55-45 Toon Link's favor.

Wolf's favor dude. You don't know the match up. Go read the match up thread stickied for why if you really want to know. We just finished discussing TL.

Ishiey · Feb 18, 2010

Yeah, I think I'm going to lock these old matchup threads whenever someone bumps them, because they're... pretty old... >_>

Match-Up Discussion #18: Toon Link

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