Match-Up Discussion #32! Squirtle, Ivysaur, Zard

Pokemon Trainer​

Go ^_^

Here is a debate EL and I had with PT boards back in early July..

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180620

Good stuff starts on page 4

I've played like one good PT, ever. I'll leave this one to you guys xD

Charizard is a pretty decent opponent. Charizard has some good quick tilts. Space at tipper range in front of him with fairs. Stay airborne to avoid his dtilt and sometimes his ftilt. Charizard isnt too fast and he isnt as heavy as he looks. Him being so big you can use your nair as a safe kill move when needed. Charizard also has his flamethrower which can be annoying, however you can get a free dolphin slash if you shield it. Watch our of his fair as it may gimp you and never go directly above Charizard, obvious reasons. Stay away, play patient, camp a little, and one third of this fight is over.

Ivysaur...fair grab ledge ko. Ok...im making it sound easier then it might be but yeah...it happens. Ivysaur has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Ivysaur has a strong fsmash, however you shouldnt get hit with any of his smashes if you space correctly. Bullet seed can be DI'd out of, or possibly dolphin slashed? (I need to test it). Razor leaf, jab or PS. Ivysaur has a strong uair, watch out for it and dont make your air dodges predictable. Dtilt is a wonder in this matchup, use it wisely. Otherwise there isnt much Ivysaur can do when you space and play correctly. Remember f-air, grab ledge, win ^_^.

Squirtle squirt!! Squirtle has speed, however does not have fast enough moves to beat any of yours. Squirtle can do some 'wavedashing' like stuff with his shell. I dont know the actual term, hydroplanning or whatever. But he starts rolling around in his shell and can up smash out of it, which has very good knockback. Its very similar to Sheik's dash attack cancel, except can be used at anytime. Squirtle has Water gun as well which can be used to edgeguard, stay low and sweetspot the ledge. Squirtle is release grabbed, very similar to Metaknight, except you can go across the stage. This leads to a free dair, so yeah...pretty much ****. His main KO moves are his down throw and up smash, so watch out for those. Otherwise, grab release, dtilt/fair zone, and shield his up smashes...then up b out of your shield...just play right lol.

When Pokemon Trainer is switching pokes, you can charge a shield breaker and hit them when they come out of their pokeball.

Charizard vs Marth = 60:40 Marth
Squirtle vs Marth = 65:35 Marth
Ivysaur vs Marth = 70:30 Marth

Idk PT....

All I know is that you can grab release squirrtle, but.... is it the air grab release or the ground one that you have to use though?

Gimping Ivysaur is easier than gimping Olimar.

And Charizards, side B is ridiculous.

Ummmm...... I'll leave this one to you guys.

As if squirtle wasn't easy enough for Marth, you have a grab release death combo on him which ends with a spike.

Steel2nd said:

As if squirtle wasn't easy enough for Marth, you have a grab release death combo on him which ends with a spike.

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Oh yeah XD, forgot about that lol.

Steel2nd said:

As if squirtle wasn't easy enough for Marth, you have a grab release death combo on him which ends with a spike.

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how do you do that ?

Yuck.

That thread was filled with idiocy. Marth, broken? lol.

Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with the analysis that you and EL came up with. The only thing that has really changed since then is squirtle's options out of a shellshift, which don't affect the matchup very much (/at all) anyway. Success with each of those relies on you missing with a laggy attack, which is unlikely to say the least.

In an attempt to keep this post productive I suppose I'll mention a few points related to the other pokemon.

Regarding Ivysuar:
Vinewhip and bair can keep marth out of the air to a certain extent, but options on the ground still favour marth. What you do think about this? Should he try and keep his approach grounded?

Ivysuar is gimp city, as always. Gimping marth is an interesting case. If ivysaur uses vine whip shortly after running off the stage he/she/it will shoot upwards and tether the edge roughly two ivysaurs above the stage. From here ivysaur will sit for about half a second before falling to her proper place below the stage. The result is that you can effectively extend your invincibility frames by that half second simply by snapping to the ledge as soon as you pass the lip of the stage.

This has limited usefulness against marth thanks to his dancing blade. Momentum stalling sure is nifty. Regardless, its a way to stretch that edgehog for as long as possible.

Other options include dropping down below the stage and using vinewhip at its maxium distance. If marth is too low/far away to recover above the stage his only option is to drop to ivy's level and either DB>DS or simply dolphin slash, right? I wonder if snapping up just before both of those would give ivysaur enough invincibility frames to survive his recovery?

Meh. Conjecture.

I agree with the numbers for charizard as well. Something to note, though: At 0% charizard can chain a bthrow to a fthrow, which is excellent at getting opponents off the stage for an early gimp. Both marth and charizard have a number of options in this situation, so I don't think it changes the matchup in a significant way. Still, watch out for it next time you play PT.

Well there are some things to think about. Have fun.

IMO Squirtle 30/70
Ivysaur 35/65 - 40/60
Charizard 40/60

I don't feel like discussing this, this was done already. Lol.

Squirtle: 80:20

Ivysaur: 65:35. Marth

Charizard: 60:40 Marth

I edited my first post, added squirtle and match ratios.

Squirtle's shellshift tricksies:

He can cancel his pivot into an up smash, down smash, fsmash or grab. All of these travel at a high speed and slide roughly half of Final Destination. He can also use the up smash slide (hydroplane) without the pivot. If a PT player finds himself stuck using squirtle against marth, expect sudden death slides out of his dash. Chances are they will be pretty desperate to get you away asap.

Squirtle can also cancel the pivot into any of his normal attacks, but the distance is only = to his normal pivot distance. It's not to shabby .

zelda_master_timmy said:

When Pokemon Trainer is switching pokes, you can charge a shield breaker and hit them when they come out of their pokeball.

Click to expand...

Just a totally random note. If you're on castle seige and they pk switch during the changing scene animation, the pokemon won't come out until it's at the next stage. Don't mistime your shield breaker =b lol.

zelda_master_timmy said:

Squirtle vs Marth = 65:35 Marth

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Granted hydro-planning is annoying(and the long range he gets on his sliding grab from it), I don't think it's good enough. Squirtle's advantages are hydro-planning, 1 frame jab, and I suppose gimping via watergun(which isn't as good as F.L.U.U.D.). His best option to get in is hydro-planning, but he'll end up getting in a lot further than he wants and it's an easy shield-grab--->death combo. PK boards agree squirtle is the worst match-up vs. marth

Zelda, no way that Squirtle does better here than Ivy. You only said what Marth has to do to win, you didn't mention any sort of advantage. It's like me saying that to have an advatage against MK, just dodge all of his attacks.

Ivy does much better in the match than squirtle. Onxy's ratios were pretty accurate, maybe a little more on Squirtle.

Onxy said:

Zelda, no way that Squirtle does better here than Ivy. You only said what Marth has to do to win, you didn't mention any sort of advantage. It's like me saying that to have an advatage against MK, just dodge all of his attacks.

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haha déjà vu, eh?

Anyway, 65:35 is too generous for squirtle. He's completely outclassed. I'm interested to see if the Ivy matchup ends up at 65:35 or 40:60.

Onxy said:

Zelda, no way that Squirtle does better here than Ivy. You only said what Marth has to do to win, you didn't mention any sort of advantage. It's like me saying that to have an advatage against MK, just dodge all of his attacks.

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I always had a easier time with Ivysaur, I was going by what I faced. But yeah, I can see how Ivysaur does better. Both are Marths favor anyway.

zelda_master_timmy said:

I always had a easier time with Ivysaur, I was going by what I faced. But yeah, I can see how Ivysaur does better. Both are Marths favor anyway.

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Most people suck with Ivysaur, so that's maybe a reason. Lol.

Edit: The part when I said people suck with Ivy needs more emphasis. Many people suck with her BBBAAAADDD, soo bad that it's embarrassing. If I ddn't use Ivy, I would think Ivy is bad too.

Onxy said:

Most people suck with Ivysaur, so that's maybe a reason. Lol.

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Possibly, I guess Ivysaur's stronger smashes and aerials mixed with projectiles make him better then Ivysaur, for Marth anyway. Even if you can easily perfect shield the leaves. Ivysaurs jab seems useful if Marth gets too close, and he has good grab range as well. Mixing razor leaf, and grabs can be annoying.

Charizard's attacks all have a lot of ending lag. Play it safe and punish when necessary. Don't underestimate Ivysaur, it has a plethora of amazing moves. Again, play it safe until it gets near the edge. Spam aerials after it's in air so that it has to air dodge to not die. Once it gets low enough a simple aerial is enough for the KO. If that. Squirtle is really no problem, just try to avoid his juggling tactics, and don't go in for the edge guard when he's close enough to use his Up-B.

Because they'll have to use Squirtle once, or switch to Ivysaur (allowing you a free tippered Neutral B or F-Smash), one stock will be very easy in this match. Ivysaur is also pretty simple as long as you don't act foolishly and edgeguard efficiently. The only character that will cause you a reasonable amount of difficulty is Charizard. However, as I said earilier, his attacks have a lot of lag and are easy to punish.

As Charizard is the only remotely difficult character to face in this match-up and Squirtle and Ivysaur should be beaten fairly easy, I would give this match-up a 60 - 40, but it really depends on which character(s) the opponent is best with. I think it can really range between 70 - 30 to 60 - 40.

Ill put a ratio for each pokemon, and I guess we can just average it out for the overall ratio.

My take on it:

Squirtle: 75:25
Ivysaur: 65:35
Charizard: 60:40

thanks for the link s2.

squirtle gets nasty stuff done to him whenever marth grabs him, but i'm not sure if the grab release chain is a true infinite. regardless, marth can use fsmash/usmash/some aerials out of grab release, so it isn't good regardless.

don't completely discount squirtle because he is outranged and gets ugly grab stuff done to him. shellshifting adds a unique dimension to his approach and defensive options. shellshifting allows squirtle to quickly get inside of marth's zoning to shieldgrab, f/utilt, or jab. it also allows squirtle to quickly slide a ridiculous range with any of his three smashes, meaning he definitely has good kill options. and his dthrow kills at about 120-130% and has enough knockback for a pokemon switch at about 80%, so its a good option if pt switches to squirtle when marth is at high damage.

water gun also forces marth to recover directly below the stage, and at that point squirtle can just time the edgehog to gimp marth.

it's certainly a disadvantage, but squirtle isn't totally helpless. marth has poor grab range, and squirtle can space his aerials by full hopping and attacking as soon as he jumps, and then di'ing backward.

ivysaur outranges marth with bair. ftilt does 14% max and has deceptive range, even slightly better than ivy's dtilt. razor leaf is a decent projectile. it's not amazing for camping since marth can cancel it out with his sword, but it forces an approach and is exceptional for helping ivysaur approach. bair only does 4% but has very little landing lag, so it can be linked into a tilt, leaf, or another aerial to zone and rack up damage. bair is just the move that creates openings for ivysaur and keeps him safe. marth's smash attacks aren't very safe, and ivysaur can easily punish with bullet seed or fsmash for good damage or a kill. fsmash has a horizontal knockback trajectory, which is bad for marth. on stage, ivysaur and marth are fairly close to even, i'd believe.

everyone knows that ivysaur is weak sauce and gimpable, so we don't have to go into that. just beware of the fact that razor leaf can hit you and that ivysaur can stall a bit with dair. ivysaur can also gimp marth though. bair outranges marth's dancing blade and fair. if marth isn't too far below the stage, ivysaur can bair marth at least twice per jump and then tether the edge. ivysaur can then instantaneously grab onto the edge himself for the invincibility frames whenever marth dolphin slashes. so basically marth is going to want to recover as far below as possible...however. ivysaur can run off stage and tether the instant it leaves the ground. when it does so, it tethers and its body is a good distance above the edge. for comparison, ivysaur hovers at about the top of marth's standing height. it's enough to keep ivysaur out of marth's dolphin slash hitbox most of the time. unless marth slashes early and lands on stage. at that point, ivysaur can ledge hop dair or nair.

charizard has a nice defensive game. flamethrower works like bowser's breath and shuts down marth's ground approaches. however, it has quicker start up and cool down time. rock smash is also a great spacer and does very nice damage. it can be used in a variety of situations, even as a sort of counter since the rock is almost instantaneous. some frame data here would be appreciated.

charizard's jabs have great range and are a good OoS option. they are zard's best move at quickly getting an aggressive player away from him, and can jab cancel into a dtilt, which has good range (although slightly smaller than marth's dtilt) and will kill marth at 110-120% when sweetspotted (which is zard's entire head). zard's ftilt has more range but has some cool down lag. regardless, it is still a decent spacer. it also kills around dtilt's kill percentage, and has similar range to marth's ftilt. zard's utilt has great range and can both link into utilt/uair at low percents and kill marth off the top at low to mid 100s. 130-140%, maybe.

remember, flamethrower is very effective at neutralizing marth's ground approach and forcing marth to go to the air. at that point, zard can use a shield canceled dash to punish with a grab, jabs, or even fly. or dash backward sh bair/flamethrower/rock smash.

zard's grabs do a great job of damaging and killing marth. both fthrow and bthrow put charizard in a good position to follow up. at 0%, charizard can chain 2-3 fthrow/bthrows and take marth off stage early. dthrow kills marth at the edge at around 130%. uthrow can be used at low percents to utilt or uair.

one thing i'm noticing as i compare move-by-move is that marth very slightly has more range than charizard does, and the difference seems to be equivalent to marth's sweetspot, so keep in mind that if your spacing isn't absolutely flawless, zard is on par with you. in addition, charizard has the largest non tether grab range in brawl. again, if marth does not keep very close to sweetspot range, charizard will be in range to grab you. you will need IMPECCABLE spacing. zard has his tilts, grab, flamethrower, and RAWK SMASSHSHHHHHH to match you on the ground.

in the air, charizard's bair is very quick and has range equal to marth's fair. it is easy to sweetspot and deals nice damage and has very good ko potential. spaced rock smash is also very nice, as the rock comes out surprisingly quickly, especially for an attack of its magnitude. attacking and breaking the rock before charizard headbutts still leaves the knockback of the huge boulder there and the rock shards will still spread, so be aware of that.

off stage, charizard can gimp marth pretty well. knockback fair is practically instant death, however, the hitbox is about half of the actual flame breath. regardless, it's something marth definitely has to be aware of because it is practically a ko from around 70% on up. rock smash can also be used to gimp due to its range. charizard's bair is an excellent attack off stage. it has great ko potential off stage, is quick, and has good range. finally, flamethrower punishes marths who dolphin slash early to prevent edge hugs. and of course, as anyone can, a timed edge hug can gimp marth.

**** i always write a lot.

75:25 squirtle sounds right to me. a GOOD ivysaur will be incredibly annoying to marth and should be 6:4 marth at worst. charizard seems to hover around the same ratio. an average is an accurate way of analyzing pt as a whole. for example, using steel2nd's ratios, the pt matchup should be between 6:4 and 65:35. squirtle is almost entirely negligable because it can either come in at the end of pt's stock or come in at the end of marth's stock and use any quick attack with good knockback (throws, fair, dair, uair, smash attacks) to switch again to ivysaur.

Marth has poor grab range?

3rd best in the game, sir.

And i agree squirtle isn't COMPLETELY helpless, so 70:30 probably.

Ivy's ftilt and fsmash outrange Marth but the fsmash is very telegraphed and the ftilt is easily DI'd out of. Not very viable options when Marth is zoning ivy.

Zard's flamethrower does not shut down Marth's ground game at all. If it gets shielded Zard is easily up b'd.. same if Marth just DI's up.

Marth also outranges Zard's rock smash.

Steel2nd said:

Marth has poor grab range?

3rd best in the game, sir.

And i agree squirtle isn't COMPLETELY helpless, so 70:30 probably.

Ivy's ftilt and fsmash outrange Marth but the fsmash is very telegraphed and the ftilt is easily DI'd out of. Not very viable options when Marth is zoning ivy.

Ivy's Fsmash is about as telegraphed as Marth's Fsmash. That's not Ivy's most used kill move either, so it shouldn't be anyway.

The Ftilt can be DI'ed out of easily if you expect it for some reason. The second you DI inward for a second, you're not going any where.

Zard's flamethrower does not shut down Marth's ground game at all. If it gets shielded Zard is easily up b'd.. same if Marth just DI's up.

Marth also outranges Zard's rock smash

What doesn't out range it?
.

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.................10 characters.

I mentioned the fsmash because he did. And Marth's fsmash comes out in.. 12 frames? I don't see how it is telegraphed.

I know it's a quick move, but Ivy's is also pretty quick actually. It's actually faster than G&W's Fsmash. IDK how many frames it is, we have no such data as far as I know. Speed isn't always mean that it's not telegraphed really.

Suppose, but there really won't be much fsmash in the match up anyway.

So can we agree on:

Squirtle: 75:25
Ivy: 65:35
Zard: 60:40
PT: 65:35ish?

I'd say PT as a whole is 65-35, that is about the middle of the three, and I don't know this matchup, so I won't post my opinion.

s2 are you referring to marth's standing grab or dash grab or pivot grab? according to this thread...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196207

ivysaur and charizard's standing grabs both have more reach, and marth's is equal to squirtle's. all three have a longer dash grab and pivot grab. idk if the thread is wrong, but marth isn't anywhere near the top 3 in that thread's lists.

marth is going to have a difficult time zoning ivysaur due to the fact that bair just has more range than anything marth has and creates openings for other attacks. ftilt can be di'd, but at that point ivysaur can dash grab, razor leaf, bair, vine whip if marth jumps, or simply reset it's spacing.

marth's sword goes through rock smash and can hit zard if it is poorly spaced. i'll give you that. rock smash isn't completely useless in the matchup though. it decimates shields, for example. charizard just can't rock smash to directly counter marth's attacks.

shield to up b is the only thing marth can really do against the flamethrower, and marth will likely have to predict it because flamethrower comes out fairly quickly. if charizard catches marth a shielding marth in it, zard should obviously cancel it immediately and perhaps escape the dolphin slash. the flamethrower also has more range than the dolphin slash, although i'm not quite sure of how much range the slash has. a picture would be nice, because depending on how zard catches marth in the flame, marth may be out of range for the slash or have to di toward zard to get it off, thus taking more damage in the process. and obviously, flamethrower will poke through marth's shield if it isn't healthy.

if marth is caught without a shield, charizard can angle the flamethrower up, hold it there for a second or two, and then cancel it early to a shield to prevent getting slashed.

if marth can shield on reaction to charizard's flamethrower, then this is a problem. but unless the flamethrower is getting predictable, i don't really see that happening. flamethrower isn't charizard's ONLY option here. predicting the flamethrower and not getting it can be an opening for zard to dash and shieldgrab or something.

but anyway, flamethrower outranges marth's options on the ground. marth does have ways to get out of it but i think it'd be more effective for marth to approach aerially. correct me if i'm wrong.

When I say top 3 i mean non-tether ranged grabs. In which case, he is among the top 3 ranked.

Non-tethers:

0.8 blocks = 1
-Charizard
0.6 blocks = 2
-Bowser
-Donkey Kong
-King Dedede
-Zelda
0.5 blocks = 3
-Peach
-Diddy Kong
-R.O.B.
-Kirby
-Squirtle
-Jigglypuff
-Marth

Ivy has range, but in the end it's Marth's speed and pressure game which is why he loses. Same thing with charizard.

No, if the flame catches marth right at the tip then Marth can't retaliate. He'd simply have to jump over it if Zard is slow on stopping the attack or just wait it out and then reset his zoning. If he is caught anywhere near the middle of it I'm pretty sure DS will hit it. Zard can't react fast enough once Marth shields it, DS comes out too fast.

Oh god, I remember that discussion.


I was the one who asked for Emblem Lord's opinion.


*sigh* good times.



But yeah, Marth is one of PT's difficult matchups, which is saying alot.

I love how we are so close to the end of these, then we can have all of them done and not be at like #10 still... And are we the farthest boards on these to actually have a thread for all of them?

well you proved me wrong there, although all three pokemon have better grab ranges, including squirtle when he shellshifts.

myeah, no way zard can cancel his flame and shield in 5 frames. regardless, i'm going to repeat myself and say that it's still a good option for charzy. he just can't spam it and get predictable or use it as his main option because marth can get out if he shields it.

i'll just give up and conclude.

7:3 squirtle?
6:4 ivysaur?
6:4 charizard?

the reason i put ivysaur on zard's level is that it does a better job of controlling marth's spacing than zard does.

and solid you guys are by far the furthest with these discussions. pt is only on 11. i'm a little lazy. :D

I completely agree, flame thrower is a very good option for Zard.

I would give ivy 6:4, but its the recovery that makes me want to put it down to 65:35.

well, marth can be gimped just as well at high level play, it's just not quite as easy. good di up to the corner helps ivy out immensely.

EDIT

regardless...i think we can come to a consensus that pt overall is somewhere between 65:35 and 60:40. the big picture is that pt is only soft countered. correct?

dooble edeet

i've posted in dangr's chart thread with

squirtle<<marth
ivysaur<marth
charizard<marth
pt<marth

Me and Steel did this months back. Nothing has really changed since then.

myeah, it's the same ratios as before.

nice to see you again EL.

nice sig too lol

The recovery is bad for Ivy, but Ivy is simply stronger in some areas than Charizard -such has keeping Marth off of you with spacing, with the use of quick long range moves also. IDK, it's a 4/6 for Ivy IMO, but you can make it what you want

5 points isn't much of a difference, it's still a slight advantage marth.