Match-Up Week #12 : Game & Watch

Blad01 · Oct 7, 2008

Week #12 : Game & Watch

One of the best characters in the game. Awesome priority, a bucket that can absorb your lasers, scaring smashes... Often considered as one of our hardest match-ups. How is actually this match-up ? And how could we beat these G&W ?
Discuss !

BleachigoZX · Oct 7, 2008

Well I don't have much to say, but Feed the Bucket ONLY WHEN YOUR CLOSE.
It Gives you enough time to get a free hit in.

Don't use Smashes unless it's a guaranteed hit because if you miss, He'll smash.
Out Space his turtles, with Lasers, whenever possible.
Light Pillar is always good.
Jab-combo is god.
DLX'ing early in the match can lead into a grab if GW isn't watching his DI, which can lead to another DLX, i think.

Thats i all could come up with.

8AngeL8 · Oct 8, 2008

The only way I've found to play this matchup unless you're just better than your opponent is to be a completely gay campy falco. Wait for him to approach, and either shield grab, reflector, or bair/nair as the situation requires. Get your hit in, then illusion away, because you CANNOT stand up to GaW up close.

Upkick is less viable in this match because it requires you to be right next to GaW, which is a terrible place to be. He also has totally broken vertical priority and hitboxes that will destroy you. I try to use bair as my kill move even though it will require higher percentages. Fortunately, GaW is pretty light so you shouldn't have to go much above 100%.

Make sure you either go all out with lasers, or not at all. I sometimes just let him fill the bucket in order to get all the extra damage from lasers. Quite a few GaW players are very predictable with their bucket, so you can just reflect it right back in their face and turn your biggest disadvantage into a strength. If they're more advanced, they'll surprise you with the bucket, so be extremely cautious and keep your spacing.

ftl · Oct 8, 2008

Wait, you can reflector the bucket? Is that true? That's good to know if it is, I'd never thought about that. Or was that just bad choice of words on your part?

8AngeL8 · Oct 8, 2008

Oh, wait, sorry, just tested it out. You can't actually reflect it back on him, but you can cancel it out even a bit after the animation starts. Still, it's better than just eating the whole thing. Haha, I just assumed you could reflector it but I've always dodged rather than try, now that I think about it.

sandwhale · Oct 8, 2008

i'm not ok with going all out with lasers or not at all. i find shooting unpredictably at mid range is the best solution so that he won't always know when to bucket and if he does you can still punish him.

Yojimbo · Oct 8, 2008

I try to not use lasers at all, or only when he's trying an aeriel approach. The G&W's I've faced predict that I'm going to use a lot of lasers and that I won't switch up my game, which is incorrect. I would not approach G&W unless buffered by a laser, and you can only do that safely twice if he buckets and predicts it.

Tech out of all downthrows. Otherwise you'll get dsmashed.

Spacing is key here since he'll have his way with Falco at close range, so whiffing smashes at close range will mean bad results for the Falco player. Just make your lasers unpredictable and approach with them when needed, or just camp to your hearts content. I prefer the first option and it has worked out for me.

czdadegrees · Oct 8, 2008

just lost against game and watch but before i played him i read this so the match wasn't pawnage it was good the NAIR/bair works unpredictable laser tactics work also and using the forward smash will work and Dair

GenesisJLS · Oct 8, 2008

Game & Watch
Pros
Back Air, just eats shields energy.
Front Air, similar to back air.
Bucket, absorbs your short hop laser and he in could use against you.
Down air, out priorities your up aerial.
Zero lag time between his moves especially smash attacks.

Cons
Horrible up B, little to none horizontal recovery.
Lackluster projectile

Falco
Pros
Can chain grab spike to easy 50+ damage possibly could double spike for easy gimp
Jab combo to shine works really well. 12-20 damage
Great down air to quick back air for 15-20 damage

Cons
Lasers don't work because of bucket
Really have to watch where you tech. Tech towards him he uses down smash, Tech away from him he uses sliding up smash.
Up Aerial never works.

Match up 65:35 towards Game & Watch, worst Falco match theoretically in the game.

ftl · Oct 8, 2008

Wait is his up-b really that bad? I'ts got enough of a hitbox that it's hard to spike him out of it, at least. He can get out of the chaingrab relatively early compared to the heavies. He's no DDD.

Phantasming back to the stage is hard against him. Aerials and fsmash all kill the phantasm. Against some characters, you can get an illusion in even if they're trying to guard you by timing it right. G&W is pretty hard to do that against.

cutter · Oct 8, 2008

You can't reflect a bucket. It has transcendental priority just like Falco's lasers and shine.

BTW, Bucket hits on frame 2 (first part of it).

Neb · Oct 8, 2008

G&W's recovery is actually really good.
The only flaw in Upb is its low horizontal return, that's why most G&W's save their SJ and DI to the stages ribs, then return with its sweet-spot.

8AngeL8 · Oct 8, 2008

cutter said:
You can't reflect a bucket. It has transcendental priority just like Falco's lasers and shine.

BTW, Bucket hits on frame 2 (first part of it).

Yeah, I was wrong about that. I tested it out, and you actually CAN cancel the bucket if your reflector hits just as it's coming out. You can start to see the animation, and his bucket is empty afterwards. The timing is probably too precise to be practical, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

A2ZOMG · Oct 9, 2008

ftl said:
Wait is his up-b really that bad? I'ts got enough of a hitbox that it's hard to spike him out of it, at least. He can get out of the chaingrab relatively early compared to the heavies. He's no DDD.

G&W has one of the best Up-Bs in Brawl, maybe after characters like ROB and MK.

In the words of Teh_Spammerer: "When he Up-Bs, omg, he turns into Peach except without the landing lag, and he's almost impossible to edgeguard when he's coming from below."

Falco I think however is able to D-air G&W's Up-B after his 5 invulnerable attack frames end, because I think like in Melee, Falco has invincible feet when D-airing. I don't recommend it though since it's hard to time and the hitbox of the Up-B has very high priority.

Anyhow, G&W outcamps Falco in this matchup thanks to not really being affected by lasers, and he doesn't have trouble punishing Falco's recovery thanks to high priority lingering hitboxes on his F-air, B-air, and D-air.

AH-86 · Oct 9, 2008

OK, I haven't read all the posts, But you should really try not to be predictable. As we know, his smashes are painful and (if they aren't overused) they can kill as low as 80%.

THINGS TO DO WHEN YOU ARE ON THE GROUND!

-His bucket catch the laser so, the golden rule is not to spam lasers. Being spontaneous is a must
-The TURTLE the most annoying b-aerial that is 2-d fellow has. if he doesnt space it (like marth's f-aerial), roll towards him and CG smash, jab-grab, U-smash, D-smash, you name it. Anything to rack up damage!
-The F-aerial: Don't go it (is like don't follow the light) let it come to you. Shield (or power shield it for a better response) and grab, U-smash, D-smash, again anything you need to do depending on the situation.
-Be aware of all his smashes especially d-smash can be easily spammed and if you fall into his range falco is good as gone. As I stated before his smashes are painful and (if they aren't overused) they can kill as low as 80%.

THINGS TO DO WHEN YOU ARE IN THE AIR

-If you try to spike him. His Up-b, can stage spike (when you are below FD, Smash Ville, etc) Falco almost every time.
-Same with his n-air.
-Falco's N-air is the best tool to fight this guy. Try to use it wisely. Find a space and do it.
-When you recover, the side-b can be overtaken (sometimes) by his F-smash. Play mind games when you recover.

This is the small things that I can write (>_<)

sandwhale · Oct 9, 2008

most of it has already been so after all i've seen here i'm gonna with the 60:40 for GaW simply because his bucket does not make you lose ALL match control it only forces you to play a more risky, closer range game. you can cg him from 0 to ~50% and when at close range falco does not get ***** but is simply at a disadvantage

Timcanpy · Oct 9, 2008

Im a diddy mainer, but i use GaW vs Falco, i tested a lot of things in this matchup, and, GaW can escape from falco CG at 35% with his UpB, not 50% like some falco mainers here are saying.

B-Mon · Oct 9, 2008

GenesisJLS said:
Game & Watch
Pros
Back Air, just eats shields energy.
Front Air, similar to back air.
Bucket, absorbs your short hop laser and he in could use against you.
Down air, out priorities your up aerial.
Zero lag time between his moves especially smash attacks.

Cons
Horrible up B, little to none horizontal recovery.
Lackluster projectile

Falco
Pros
Can chain grab spike to easy 50+ damage possibly could double spike for easy gimp
Jab combo to shine works really well. 12-20 damage
Great down air to quick back air for 15-20 damage

Cons
Lasers don't work because of bucket
Really have to watch where you tech. Tech towards him he uses down smash, Tech away from him he uses sliding up smash.
Up Aerial never works.

Match up 65:35 towards Game & Watch, worst Falco match theoretically in the game.

Monsieur Game and Watch has super armor on his UpB up until he closes his mouth. After the apex of the jump he then gets to slowly parachute in either direction. I believe his recovery is "Teh sex".

He can Bucket and/or duck the lasers, outprioritize the phantasm, kill Falco really early if a smash connects, and own him on most other things.

I main Falco and I love playing with the Monsieur, but the only thing to do against him is predict his minimal-lag moves, space him with the little range that Falco contains and use lasers mostly when aerial.

GaW will tear your **** with his Bair, Dair, Fair, Nair; Mess you up with Uairs, D-tilts, Chairs, Flags, Helmets, Matches, and Dual-Hammers.

I really think Falco doesn't have much of a bright side on this one

.

Oh and the Oil can' be reflected, but it does cancel out the hitbox and becomes yours. Same effect as Ness' PK Flash, Zelda's Din's Fire, and Lucas' PK Freeze aswell.

Neb · Oct 9, 2008

B-Mon said:
Monsieur Game and Watch has super armor on his UpB up until he closes his mouth. After the apex of the jump he then gets to slowly parachute in either direction. I believe his recovery is "Teh sex".

No, he has invincibility frames, not SA.

Vlade · Oct 10, 2008

Difficulty: 7:3 or 65:45 (either way its a big disadvantage to falco)

What to expect:

Bair... Super-range, super-priority, super shield pressure. Seriously, this move ***** and will take the piss out of you. It pokes your shield and if you do shield it, there's no point in shield-grabbing because GW will just Upb as soon as he lands. Be cautious of the landing hitbox this move has. GW's best approach move, normally RAR'ed.
In the Air GW is a moving body of priority. His fair will kill you if it hits early and fresh, the dair spikes at the start, the nair juggles, the uair defies gravity and refreshes GW's other moves and the bair just ***** as I've already said.
The Dthrow techchase. If you can't tech GW's Dthrow, chances are you may eat an usmash in the face, or a dtilt if the GW prefers a low-risk, low reward. He shouldnt be able to hit you with a Dsmash (which by the way is insanely godly) as long as you buffer a roll. If you do get faceplanted, just keep things unpredictable.
GW's smashes are insanely powerful. Fsmash and Usmash will have no trouble killing at 100%. The Dsmash has a sweetspot and what I call a 'sourspot'. The sweetspot sends you straight up into the air, killing you off the top, while the sourspot will send you horizontally and down, making recovery a difficult job. A bit of start-up lag with these moves, but not much cooldown time.
The Bucket. Steals away your laser game, and if you're dumb enough to put 3 lasers in there you will die at 65% without DI. Otherwise it deals a huge 25% damage. So basically you can say goodbye to your playstyle if you're a camper.
His edgeguarding game is incredible. On-stage he can either use chef (neutralB) or Dtilt, off-stage he can fair or slowfall dair to send you back out.

The Strategy:

For almost all of my matches I commence with lasers. Against GW, don't do it. He'll have his bucket ready. The only time you should ever use your lasers is when he won't be able to get his bucket out in time. So often I use IAP to start the match against GW, or empty shorthops to keep him guessing. GW can be CG'ed to around 30% so make the most of that. He'll survive the spike because of his insane recovery but you can continue falling and follow-up with a bair to possibly stage-spike. Now if GW doesnt put out his bucket at the start of the match (smart GW players) he will approach with a RAR'ed bair. If he does then I would recommend using the shine's range to defend - make sure you hit with it because if you don't then you'll be eating a smash. Oh and by the way don't ever be more than a shorthop's distance above GW, he'll just Upb and combo you out of it with nairs or fairs. Our best approach move in this match-up is probably to autocancel a nair into a jab, then grab.

In what I call the 'mid-stock' GW will be mixing it up with bairs, Dthrow techchases and nairs. GW will always be chasing you wherever you go in the air with his upb. At this point you should practically live in your shield. Dsmash out of shield when necessary, but remember that there isn't any point in shield-grabbing coz GW will just Upb IAP is also a good move to use in an unpredictable manner, otherwise GW will just punish with a Dtilt. Remember that GW is light so if you get the chance to spike, do so. Remember that GW will out-range and outprioritize you in almost every way, so you must capitalise on your opportunities. If you get sent off the stage, chances are you'll die unless you can be unpredictable with your sweetspotting/return to stage. He will put out a bair or dtilt when you're phantasming, or use a weak fair if you resort to your upb.

Sometime ago I saw a nice dthrow > footstool > laserlock combo which worked well. GW can be infinitely laserlocked so be sure to make the most of those chances (not that there are many, if any in a match). Also remember that shooting random lasers high above GW can lure GW to use his bucket. Punish the trememendous lag on this move with a DLX or a Dsmash (if you're close). Also look out for bair/dair kill opportunities. GW is light so boosted half-charged usmash kills very nicely at 95%.

STAGES

Counterpicks:

Jungle Japes - Ease up on the lasers in this match-up, but we can still dair GW into the water after our CG to possibly kill. Phantasms are also very difficult to punish on this stage so use that to your advantage.
Final Destination/Smashville - Nice and flat for the CG, but remember to moderate laser usage.

Ban These Stages!

Battlefield - GW will combo you severely on this stage, it's his best starter stage. The platforms give GW way more advantages than falco.
Rainbow Cruise - The only time you'll really get a chance to CG is on the starting boat. Otherwise you'll be chasing GW with your poor aerial mobility, being juggled by nair or sent out with fair or bair. Just remember that there are more opportunities to spike on this stage than others, but only if you're ahead of GW in the 'side-scrolling action'./

sandwhale · Oct 10, 2008

Timcanpy said:
Im a diddy mainer, but i use GaW vs Falco, i tested a lot of things in this matchup, and, GaW can escape from falco CG at 35% with his UpB, not 50% like some falco mainers here are saying.

yes but once you got him to~35% you can then d-air him which brings him to about 50%

Blad01 · Oct 10, 2008

sandwhale said:
yes but once you got him to~35% you can then d-air him which brings him to about 50%

Moreover, you can follow with a laser-lock.

That could bring 10-15%.

B-Mon · Oct 12, 2008

Neb said:
No, he has invincibility frames, not SA.

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks for correcting me.

chaos_ · Oct 12, 2008

i think spam lasers up close and if he tries bucket punish him

zrky · Nov 1, 2008

if he fills his bucket from the lasers, then Falco could jump and do a D-air (before he throws the bucket), and cause him to lose his bucket, so you can keep on raising the damage. if hes about to do a smash, then use the reflector, or shield(DUH!)

Blad01 · Dec 26, 2008

Bump, because i think now this is more a 60:40 G&W.

Seriously, all his moves are telegraphed, he's light, we still have the chaingrab... Use random lasers, so he can't fill his Bucket OR Spam lasers, and once his bucket is filled, spam and camp like there were no tomorrow

If you're winning, he can't do that much...

Moreover, i recently played a G&W, and we're about even. So maybe i'm a little biased but ><

8AngeL8 · Dec 26, 2008

I think 6/4 GaW might even be pushing it. 55/45 maybe. GaW is really good, but it's pretty easy to see what's coming 90% of the time. Falco just needs to learn to space himself out, and he can handle the fight, no problem. The bucket isn't even a big deal in this match, now that we've learned a bit more. Honestly, the bucket is really bad for GaW because it can be baited and punished, and Falco's lasers don't even hurt that bad when thrown back out.

Falco has to play a very patient game, keeping himself spaced until GaW makes a mistake. He doesn't need to slip up too many times, GaW dies EARLY, even with bucket braking.

XxBlackxX · Dec 26, 2008

i think it's about 50:50 really if both players know this matchup very well.
think about it, GnW may have a lot of range and priority in the air but yes, like angel said he's attacks are telegraphed and it takes a really good GnW player to be unpredictable with him. the bucket is not as bad as we all once thought it was. baiting the bucket and punishing works wonders on inexperienced GnW players. falco, for the most part, can still play a campy laser game, but as long as they're not mindlessly spammed. when you close range laser, he can either shield, jump, take the hit, or bucket and let you punish him. spacing and avoid fighting him in the air too much are the key in this matchup. with all that, the matchup would be about 45:55 in GnW's favor, however, the CG's imo bring the matchup back to 50:50. GnW already dies pretty early, so racking up damage to about 50% is very useful. GnW's recover is pretty good so he won't die from the spike, and i do not recommend chasing after him offstage. keep up with the patient game, and i think this matchup is pretty even.

Teran · Dec 26, 2008

I wouldn't say it was completely even, I'd go 55/45 G&W since on paper, G&W still has the tools to make Falco's life difficult, and shut down certain parts of his game.

Luckily for higher level players, we also have brains, meaning that his on paper advantage can be nullified somewhat. His aerials are evil, but if a G&W is jumping at you with his back turned, it's pretty obvious what's coming. As everyone here as repeated before, his moves are very telegraphed, meaning we can avoid pretty much everything he throws at us with decent spacing.

So he has a bucket, but he can be punished badly for abusing it. He can be baited and punished too. Just remember, don't mindlessly spam, or as others have said just put him off by firing away into his unholy device and go for the usual wall of Falco lasers, but just be wary that his oil slick will kill you at 60%.

We actually rack up damage far better than G&W with our CG and lasers, and even better for Falco is that G&W is a complete featherweight, so if you get off a boost smash at even the early 100%s, he'll be hard pressed to survive. His smashes, however, are laggy and easy to avoid. Just space carefully and there's no reason why you shouldn't be victorious.

Blad01 · Dec 26, 2008

I would call it 60:40. You seem to forget that his Dair is really hard to punish, if not unpunishable, and that he's one of the few that can actually juggle falco (his Nair beat our Dair from what i've seen).

Royale · Dec 26, 2008

G&W's dair can be punishable if he misses, i always shield then immediately grab. GW can also juggle falco quite easily with his neutral A if we get too close. And his utilt as well. I'd have to agree with Angel and Black though. Close combat just isnt gonna happen with Falco vs GW. Playing it safe with campy lasers sounds alot better. I actually used shine on G&W if he kept approaching with his bair. Sometimes i'd also use it in the air as well, just to keep him away from me.

I usually dont use shine with the bucket, since usually i get bucket'd at point blank range, i always power shield it. It can wear on the shield extremely quickly so make sure you know your shield is ready to take the hit.

Dont forget that if G&W recovers high with his up+b he cannot air dodge while he is in para shoot. If your quick enough you can get in a free bair or even a kill if hes at 100% +. Just be mindful that he can perform lagless aerials out of his para shoot.

I think stages also play a key roll in this. So keep in mind which ones you pick. Since our usmash doesnt work as well on G&W, i wouldnt pick stages like Corneria or Halbard. G&W can easily kill off the top with his Usmash.

That and dont get grabbed by G&W either. While i could dodge roll out of his dthrow>dsmash on my Wolf, Dedede -- i could not do it on my falco. I got to the roll animation but the dsmash DI still connected.

XxBlackxX · Dec 26, 2008

Blad01 said:
I would call it 60:40. You seem to forget that his Dair is really hard to punish, if not unpunishable, and that he's one of the few that can actually juggle falco (his Nair beat our Dair from what i've seen).

yes i have already taken into account that GnW will beat falco out in the air. however, falco's ground, camp, and spacing options, along with the general "predictability" of GnW, means that a smart falco will avoid fighting in the air as much as he can. falco can still rack up damage easier. but im willing to concede it's 45:55 if you provide further details. 40:60, though, is way too much. in no way is this matchup a "clear advantage" to anyone.

EDIT: yes, teching out of dthrow is very important. if you don't, he gets a smash in.

A2ZOMG · Dec 26, 2008

The matchup is probably closer on FD and maybe Smashville, but other stages? Pretty clearly in G&W's favor if you ask me.

Roderick · Dec 26, 2008

Falco already has problem KOing, but GaW now has this move to stop the momentum of where he is flying to. I'd say 75-25. Something like this.

Teran · Dec 26, 2008

Yeah, and Captain Falcon vs Falco is 99/1 Captain Falcon.
-____-
That's the momentum cancelling trick right? He still dies relatively early ya know.

A2ZOMG · Dec 26, 2008

Falco is very weak at scoring KOs however.

If you don't hit G&W near the blastzone, he's going to live.

Okay like srsly, take MK's D-smash (2nd hit). It kills Snake at the center at 130%. However, G&W can survive at over 140% with Bucket Braking if I recall.

Teran · Dec 26, 2008

SHSL --> Boost Smash?

A2ZOMG · Dec 26, 2008

If he's shieldcamping, you're not landing an Up-smash on him any time soon at kill percents lol.

Teran · Dec 26, 2008

I don't like all this hypothetical talk. If I'm perfectly spaced from his turtle, shoot him with my lasers before he pulls out his shield or bucket, always land a CG to spike off the edge and perfectly bair gimp for every kill, then it's 99/1 Falco, because G&W can't counter that if I get it perfect. The point is, neither player is perfect, and G&W is predictable, so being technically able to take out Falco easily doesn't make it happen IRL. Rant over.
I mean no harm

∫unk · Dec 26, 2008

A2Z doesn't hypothesize he's got a pretty legit GW and plays some of the best Falcos

He's got theory and experience to back it up

Good GWs aren't as predictable but they're still one of the easier characters to predict

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