Match-Up Discussion #34! Ness

Ness​

Go ^_^

Oh for the love of ****ing god. Just put it at 8-2 and close the **** topic. We know it's impossible for Ness, and Im pretty sure some idiot Ness user will come and say the matchup is even.

GAH!

Thanks for contributing.

Saving all the **** Matchups for the end I see? We all know that Marth can release grab Ness and immediately KO with a dsmash, or basically anything afterwards if you want. However, if you wanna play "fair", you can just zone him with fairs and tilts. Shield PK Fire, and if you happen to get hit with it you can DI out of it. I cannot stand when Ness uses PK Fire and runs in to grab, when you can simply just dolphin slash or DI out. Ness has the strongest back throw in the game, or close to it, so watch out for that. His smashes are all unsafe, so if you play defensive, theres nothing can can really do. Play your normal game and space wisely, shield his pk fire, it is EASILY your game. Ness has nothing on Marth.

Marth vs Ness = 80:20 Marth

If you lose this one you suck, end of story.

Please don't factor in the death grab until your final ratio, we all know about it.

Some Ness' are good at not getting grabbed.

Steel2nd said:

Thanks for contributing.

Click to expand...

Fine.

Marth is hell. He outranges Ness on the ground and in the air. He ***** his recovery, and can CG Ness with grab release for 20% ish if your a noob. Or 15% max if you Super grab break (spinning the control stick and flicking the C-stick)

After the CG is an instant Dsmash. Ness has NOTHING for him him this fight. No projectile to be absorbed, not a simple character, but Marth. ****ing Marth.

Oh I think the matchup is 9-1 for Ness though. Marth sucks.

You can't simply not factor something so significant into your ratio. The deathgrab is here, and its here to stay. Ness is unsafe at all times, and has to focus his entire playstyle on not getting grabbed. And chances are you will grab him at least once. And when you do, he's dead.

Aside from that, you outrange him, his projectiles are slow and easy to get around, and thats really there is to it...

85:15

Marth can infinite side B while in PK fire. Seriously, Ness has nothing on Marth.

BengalsRZ said:

You can't simply not factor something so significant into your ratio. The deathgrab is here, and its here to stay. Ness is unsafe at all times, and has to focus his entire playstyle on not getting grabbed. And chances are you will grab him at least once. And when you do, he's dead.

Aside from that, you outrange him, his projectiles are slow and easy to get around, and thats really there is to it...

85:15

Click to expand...

Did you read what i said?

"Please don't factor in the death grab until your final ratio, we all know about it.

Some Ness' are good at not getting grabbed."

All you have to do is watch out of Ness's PK fire and you're good. I would just say, just Nair, Fair, the whole way, always be in the air.

Steel2nd said:

Please don't factor in the death grab until your final ratio, we all know about it.

Some Ness' are good at not getting grabbed.

Click to expand...

Its still like 75:25 (or 80:20) Marth without the deathgrab lol. Too easy to gimp, light, you can still use the release grab to get a safe ko move, dsmash or dolphin slash.

Steel2nd said:

Did you read what i said?

"Please don't factor in the death grab until your final ratio, we all know about it.

Some Ness' are good at not getting grabbed."

Click to expand...

Ah my bad, I misread your post.

Well yeah, ness is still a bad character.

Just go over Ness' options instead of saying "just grab him" is all i'm asking. This will be the same case for lucas.

zelda_master_timmy said:

Its still like 75:25 (or 80:20) Marth without the deathgrab lol. Too easy to gimp, light, you can still use the release grab to get a safe ko move, dsmash or dolphin slash.

Click to expand...

Actually Ness heavier than Marth by alot, and gimping a good Ness is hard. Oh, and you guys are on crack. 95-5 for Ness. He owns Marth that badly.

Okay aside from joking, the Chaingrab is not that bad. It's the downsmash that comes after. Ness is easily tazered by Marth in the air (ness forté) and is ***** on the ground. Marth is exceptional at getting a KO on Ness in the air.

Without the CG+Grab release 7-3. With it. 85-15 or 8-2.

Ness isn't much of a problem except for his fair that messes me up sometimes cause of the extra sparklies. Other than that he gets pwned. 80:20.

70:30 Marth without infinite.

Marth outranges ness in all aspects minus pk fire and thunder(lol). If you get caught in pk fire, as it's already been said spam dancing blades and you'll do more damage than you take. Swat pk thunders when being edgeguarded and when gimping. Gimping is heaven, just don't be stupid and get hit by pk thunder2.

Also, don't GO for the chain grab. Grab when you get the chance, don't blindly charge in. That's playing stupid. Ness KNOWS you want that grab and will deliberately make it difficult to grab them. You will get owned if you do that. You can with this without the grab release, so use the grab release when you get the chance, not as a primary concern.

80:20 with grab release.

(Even though I talk mostly about Ness here I am not trying to convey the impression that Ness does well against Marth; it's just that the other points are more commonly known.)

Ness can actually fight Marth while he isn't being grabbed. His forward air outranges Marth's and Ness has better aerial mobility in general. Ness can gimp Marth's recovery better than most characters. Dolphin slash can be gimped easily by using the tail of pk thunder to stop it midway and then stage spiking (so stalling with the first hit of dancing blade is not useful against Ness... in fact it just gives him more time to do this). Pk thunder can also interfere with Shieldbreaker recovery, either getting free damage or forcing him to recover lower by hitting it part way through with the tail.

Ness will usually get a couple of hits against Marth in the air with pk thunder every time because Marth has a hard time attacking the head of pk thunder while avoiding the tail as he falls (but he falls faster than pk thunder brings him back up so this won't go on for long).

Marth has numerous advantages over Ness of course but I don't really want to get into details about that because we're all familiar with the big ones; one of the most important is that Marth's aerials tend to come out faster than Ness's. Also be careful before you mindlessly counter pk fire because if Ness is out of range of counter he can just keep using pk fire... pk fire isn't that good anyway though; it's not something Ness will actually be using to approach (as some of you seem to think).

About the chaingrab, it's more than just taking a lot of damage and possibly dying if you slip up; it actually changes how Ness has to play in general (for the worse). Ness will want to stay relatively near the edge of the stage, for example, which isn't the best place to be against Marth, and it also changes the risk : reward ratio on some things. For example, there are usually a lot of situations in which pk thunder 2 has a favourable risk : reward ratio, but not so much against Marth (except for certain situations where Marth is in the air and doesn't have his double jump). The chaingrab is actually pretty difficult to do if Ness struggles optimally by the way so I wouldn't expect to win the match up just based on that.

I'd say it's 70-30 Marth wins (including the chaingrab; without chaingrab it's a lot less bad... like 55-45 Marth wins).

Steel2nd said:

Please don't factor in the death grab until your final ratio, we all know about it.

Some Ness' are good at not getting grabbed.

Click to expand...

This.

Anyway, a saving grace for Ness would be that he's not particularly bad at making an aerial wall himself. His fair is good as it lingers out, Bair can kill and has got knockback if sweetspotted, his Dair is deadly, so juggling him can be risky.

He can however juggle you if you're high up with PK Thunder. Mind you it probably won't be killing anyone, but it will lead to some extra damage if anything.

Ness isn't too bad on the ground either since his attacks are slow or anything, and his yo-yo can be deceptive, and has good range on both U and D smashes.

Also, really all Ness needs to do is rack up enough damage on Marth then land a Bthrow and he gets a stock off. Ness has no issues killing people.

This is balanced off by his tricky recovery that in theory is easily gimped. If he's forced to recovery low, yes, he will be quite easy to gimp. If he recovers high, he can stall a bit with Down+B and he has a little more options. If you knock the thunder bolt out of PK Thunder, he's screwed, but this is easier said than done sometimes. Unlike Lucas, he's forced to recover this way or by his second jump. This means you can edgehog him somewhat easily.

His best option from the ledge is ledgehop Fair, which can be shielded and DS'd out of. His other options of course aren't as stellar, but everyone knows they have their time and place.

PKT2 is deadly if it hits, but if the Ness tries to use on you on the stage, either Counter correctly or shield it and deathgrab him...lol. If it hits, it can kill pretty early.

PK Fire locks can be deadly, but just Smash DI the other way and airdodge/double jump/fair him away or Dolphin Slash out (if you're at Battlefield's middle or something). If you do get locked in, he can "combo" it to basically anything, bat, grabs, a lot of stuff.

The death grab is what shifts this match so much in Marth's favor. I would assume this match would otherwise be 6:4 or 65:35, but it shifts to something much worst since all Marth really has to do is get Ness to mid percent by attacks and smart rushdown (since any earlier and deathgrabbing would be too easily broken out and the Ness might do a jump break by out-tempo-ing you, then land a grab and rack up enough to kill with Dsmash.

So yeah...80:20 Marth sounds good. Since at highest play the odds are so against Ness it's basically unwinnable to a reasonable extent.

But...we need to discuss this further with the Ness users.

6-4 without the grab? 65-35 at the very least. WITHOUT the grab.

PS: The CG isn't that bad. It's the downsmash at the end of it.

I think it's 55-45 without chaingrab, but that isn't a real match up anyway. The real match up includes the chaingrab and I think it's 70-30 (see also my post above).

VietGeek said:

PKT2 is deadly if it hits, but if the Ness tries to use on you on the stage, either Counter correctly or shield it and deathgrab him...lol. If it hits, it can kill pretty early.

Click to expand...

Just some comments:

Ness will only use pk thunder 2 against you in the air, never against your shield, and Counter doesn't work against moves with invincibility (Counter won't even have an attacking animation, although it will activate); the first half of the distance of pk thunder 2 has invincibility. If you aren't caught in the tail (in which case you are dead), your best bet is to air dodge, although Ness can make it difficult to know when to air dodge.

As I said above though pk thunder 2 isn't as good in this match up because the risk : reward ratio is somewhat skewed because of the chaingrab, but if Marth is in the air and doesn't have his double jump, it's still really safe and good.

pk thunder 2 has very little ending lag by the way... it only seems to have a lot if it hits your shield because the move keeps going on, but it can't hit you.

Another fact about counter if it isn't known: countering the tail of pk thunder doesn't stop pk thunder, and you will still be hit by the head (the most damaging part).

***

By the way I'm not planning on arguing over 70-30 versus 80-20... they are pretty close. Make sure you know the match up though.

Ness' Fair doesn't outrange Marth's.

Marth outranges all of Ness' moves except his b moves and maybe the dash attack.

I'd say without the chaingrab its 65:35

With, it's something like 75:25, but I'd stray toward 70:30 as the overall matchup because the CG isn't going to be used at the beginning of every stock.

Ness's forward air certainly seems to beat Marth's, and since Marth's comes out faster I'm not sure what that perception could be other than range (and I'm not talking about poor spacing here). I haven't actually done any detailed testing on this though... it's not exactly easy to do by yourself either. So although I could be wrong it doesn't seem like it. I suppose the fact that Ness's stays out a lot longer could also be part of the perception, but I don't think it's the whole story. I can't do any pixel perfect testing by myself though.

I personally have faced quite a bit of Marths in my tourney play, I believe the match is about 55-45 or 60-40 Marth. Ness is able to out range Marth in the air with an F air, by retreating it. The best Marth that I faced was Bum, Bum is one of the best DKs and he does play pretty much every character. It was a five dollar money match if you want to know

As for the chain grab Marth has, Not only are some Ness' good at not getting grabbed, Ness can also just camp toward the edge of the stage and PK thunder properly. Ness is pretty much forced to camp and play really safe if the live in fear of it.

As for the Infinite dancing blades out of PK fire why doesn't Ness just PK fire again? If you stay in there you will just be taking at minumum about 11% over and over with move stagnation...

Dancing blade is really effective however Ness' shield covers him for quite a bit of time...

The key to Ness winning the match is turning the shield pressure on Marth. Out space Marth, punish all you can. F air and retreat it constantly this way Marth has intense trouble landing his Forward air.

The key to Marth winning this match is to punish Ness' laggy attacks with your forward air. Keep Ness off stage make him lose that double jump once he does, make sure he's at a distance not to recover with PKT.

Release to downsmash is way more scary than the chain grab. 60-40 or 55-45.... If you don't play Ness in person then, you are probably basing your match ups off of the chain grab... Ness is bad on wifi, don't use wifi to determine any of your match ups.

Personally you can put what you want, it is your match up discussion...

I'm including the release to down smash when I say "chaingrab" by the way since it's part of a chain of grabs.

I can see it being a bit better than 70-30 (for Ness)... maybe 65-35. I don't think it's as good as 60-40 though. Definitely not as one sided as some people say though.

This match up is pretty stage dependent by the way. On Yoshi's Island, it's around 55-45 because Ness slides too far to be regrabbed and I think too far for down smash as well, so you barely need to worry about being grabbed at all and can play completely normally and Ness has an okay match up against Marth without having to worry about being grabbed. (It's a bit of a guessing game which way to DI though since you don't want to be hit by tipper forward smash.)

Marth should always recover from above the stage. Otherwise he's screwed.

Can I say the equivalent of Giygas?

Giygas: Marth, it hurts!

Giygas: Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,Marth,

Giygas: I feel... Happy.

To clear up any confusion, Ness's fair beats Marth's fair. At max range, both trade hits (this results in Ness losing). However, a rising fair cannot be punished by any attack save for counter, dolphin slash (why would you do this, I dunno), and maybe dair (haven't tested this completely to be sure). This is because a rising fair creates hitboxes far above Ness (and slightly further), therefore giving it more range.

Since Marth is going to play with the CG (some might not, though), Ness's ground game really has little value.

Dancing blade is not as useful as some of you may think. If you aren't fast enough, it can be shielded and a grab is ensured after. If not, DI back and the last hit can be avoided. I'm sure you have less punishable moves that you can use.

PKT can cause real problems if you don't know how to handle it. Since Marth lacks a dair that doesn't lag and his counter is set off by the tail, you going to get messed up hard without a double jump. Of course it won't happen the entire match. The thing is that it can set up a PKT2 if handled incorrectly.

I can't give an accurate score for the matchup. Marth can do terrible things to Ness (the CG forces him towards the edge, which is not a favorable position on some stages). Ness isn't defenseless, however. The matchup is also stage-dependent, so even more skewed results.

Gaussis said:

To clear up any confusion, Ness's fair beats Marth's fair. At max range, both trade hits (this results in Ness losing).

Click to expand...

No it doesn't I just tested it, Marth's Fair out ranges it. I don't know where your getting this from.

Gaussis said:

However, a rising fair cannot be punished by any attack save for counter, dolphin slash (why would you do this, I dunno), and maybe dair (haven't tested this completely to be sure). This is because a rising fair creates hitboxes far above Ness (and slightly further), therefore giving it more range..

Click to expand...

Ness's Rising Fair is out ranged by marth's Fair. Dolphin slash out of shield punishes everything that doesn't have equal or more range then G&W Bair (assuming perfect spacing). If by "why would you do this" your saying dolphin slash is a bad idea you are very mistaken.

Gaussis said:

Dancing blade is not as useful as some of you may think. If you aren't fast enough, it can be shielded and a grab is ensured after. If not, DI back and the last hit can be avoided. I'm sure you have less punishable moves that you can use.

Click to expand...

Dancing blades primary use is for punishing with its 4 frame starting so you wont be shielding most of the time. People rarely able (if able) to smash DI out of the standard red blade. In the event that you are shielding, people can slow it down for shield pressure, cancel in between any of the 4 hits and follow up with shield breaker or grab or another dancing blade. Infact, EL has an entire essay on the wonders of this move.

plus CG.

80-20.

It's a blow out.

Ness' Fair does out range Marth's F air, Ness just has to retreat it for it to out range it.

It's not like it matters. It'll do a small amount of damage.

It's pretty clear that range is not what makes a character beat another character. Well wait. In brawl you either have a projectile or broken range and you're top tier lol.

This is clearly a disadvantageous matchup for Ness. If it wasn't for the cg it'd still be bad. Not like 80-20 bad but still bad. like 65 - 35 bad.

If the death grab played a major factor in matchups......

LOL at IC......

Don't factor it in to much

75:25

Hype said:

No it doesn't I just tested it, Marth's Fair out ranges it. I don't know where your getting this from.

I would like to hear on how you tested this.

Ness's Rising Fair is out ranged by marth's Fair. Dolphin slash out of shield punishes everything that doesn't have equal or more range then G&W Bair (assuming perfect spacing). If by "why would you do this" your saying dolphin slash is a bad idea you are very mistaken.

I assume you tested this with both characters on equal level. I should have elaborated. My bad. The rising aerial must be used under Marth for best effect because what happens is that Ness's fair shifts upwards a great deal and Marth being a tall character doesn't help him. Doing this in front of him is entirely pointless (1-2%). Since Marth would be higher in the air than usual, dolphin slash would only put you at an unnecessary risk.

Dancing blades primary use is for punishing with its 4 frame starting so you wont be shielding most of the time. People rarely able (if able) to smash DI out of the standard red blade. In the event that you are shielding, people can slow it down for shield pressure, cancel in between any of the 4 hits and follow up with shield breaker or grab or another dancing blade. Infact, EL has an entire essay on the wonders of this move.

I'm not saying that it is a bad move. It is just something you probably wouldn't bother against Ness. If you stop in the middle of it, expect an usmash out of shield. If you get too close, shield grab.

plus CG.

80-20.

It's a blow out.
Not if you play it safe.

Click to expand...

10 Bold responses.

thesage said:

It's not like it matters. It'll do a small amount of damage.

Click to expand...

Pretty much what he said.

Ness' fair can beat Marth's but that doesn't really make the match any better for him. Ness still has no answers for Marth's ground game.

I'll put it at 75:25.

k?

Yeah, sounds good with me Steel, I'd put it at 80-20 but it's NBD. Let's get another one started!

Sounds good to me. Just don't get PK cannonballed while trying to edgeguard and you'll be alright.

75:25 sounds about right ness falls short in a lot of aspects against marth not to mention grab release

Before anyone asks, I did not read this whole topic. I only read some of it. So this match up is obviously bad on Ness' part but not impossible. So instead of making myself look more like a moron, I'll ask you people this.

1. Have you fought a good Ness?
2. Does this Ness main have a name that is recognized by many?
3. Are you recognized by many as Marth main?
4. What were his strengths and weaknesses?
5. What was your strengths and weaknesses?
6. Did you use your deathgrab in order to win?

Questions one and two, though may not seem relevant, they are. Anyone can whoop a n00b.

Do you really have to play a good Ness to know that it isn't that hard to grab Ness? I can consign that it can be fairly hard, but you will grab him. And I'm recognized as a Marth main. Not a good one though, tbh I am quite bad.