Match-up discussion #20: Fox

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 8, 2008

k, we'll do fox now

believe it or not but Wolf is faster than Fox in battle...lol
Most foxes don't spam their blasters but use them to force an approach, which doesn't work vs your shine. What's even better is, that Foxs approching options are pretty much non existent aka zone him off the stage. Fox is easily finished and pressured to the Edge by you.
As long as you don't let him get close, it's fine. If he gets close enough, be prepaired for some dair -> grab combo stuff which works at any %. Foxs usmash is an amazing finisher but he can't set it up too well...fortunately

Don't let him get close and you should win this 60:40 Wolfs favour

And since somebody has to do it...:Can't let you do that, Starfox!

Zhamy · Oct 8, 2008

No.

In Fox's favor, 60:40.

You want to talk camping, then Wolf is much worse off than Fox is. Wolf will have to do the majority of the approaching, if you want to talk shine/blaster.

Fox ***** Wolf with DI chase/combo simply because of weight and gimps Wolf's recovery ridiculously. Wolf has no reliable setups on Fox and doesn't have any manner of easily gimping Fox, so it's all up to dealing more damage. Wolf can use his shine as a "GTFO" spacer, but the pressure is still on Wolf to get ahead.

Retort, please.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 8, 2008

lawl

Fox has to approach. Period. He can't Shine Wolfs blaster back, since it hasn't enough range. Hoe the **** is Fox supposed to ever land one of these "****" combos? He has to get in close. Most of Wolfs attacks are faster than Foxs and have three times as much range. Good luck landing a dair there. Also as a Fox player you shouldn't talk about gimping ;P

Sesshomuronay · Oct 8, 2008

LOL why the hell would wolf need to approach? Fox has a pretty bad laser and wolfs just kicks arse! Plus fox cant reflect it because it most likely wont reach wolf from where he fired the shot at and it leaves fox wide open. Wolf has faster attacks like b-air and has an overall advantage imo.

60/40 Wolfs favor.

§witch · Oct 8, 2008

Same reversed dude, wolf reflecting fox's won't reach either. Fox's faster firing rate allows him to shoot hit you, and still get his sheild up to block your laser. Fox's out of sheild game is amazing, which is needed vs wolf. Fox combo/gimps wolf to hell and back, and doesn't have trouble KOing.

Ishiey · Oct 8, 2008

Fox's usmash gives me nightmares. I'm not even joking.

Anyways, the air. Wolf > Fox in horizontal air movement, abuse it. Fox can 'combo' well, and dair to utilt, while I don't think its guaranteed, works well enough, and utilt can rack up a good deal of damage on wolf. Dril to shine offstage sucks for wolf, and Fox (according to a bunch of morons IMO) has the better recovery. I'd say they're about even recovery-wise, but he has better distance on both of his recovery moves. Shine a lot of his close quarters stuff. Chances are wolf will have to approach, so be prepared or else fox can just spam blaster for a while. Fox has killing options out of shield, and be prepared for mixups against good players, they can fake a dair, airdodge instead, and then punish you if you drop your shield. Always keep an eye open, fox is very underrated by most people.

A6M Zero · Oct 8, 2008

50/50

Assuming the players are equally skilled...

This match often comes down to the Fox players style, as some Fox players tend to do a lot better with most Wolfs than others. A Fox player who is patient and more conservatice in my experience fairs better than one who plays a very fast, open style.

One the one hand, Wolf is the "dominant" competitor in this match, and the majority of every game will be Wolf controlling, Fox evading and looking for the punishes. This tends to force a lot more Risk than reward for the Fox player.

On the other hand, the only real source of damage Wolf is able to get on Fox (in particular, not a shot at Wolfs style) is through his smashes, and Fox won't be within hittability by many other attacks. This tends to give Fox a lot more surviveabilty through Wolf's diminished attacks than he'd normally get. This gives Fox a lot more time to try and get enough punishes he needs for a usmash.

Overall, neither character is forced to approach one another, although Fox will feel more pressure throughout the match. Two equally skilled players will probably find themselves playing a race. Wolf needs to beat down Fox before Fox can force enough mistakes in close quarters to start his combinations. Fox needs to manage his position on the stage well enough to survive the smashes while he's at higher percentages, and play like he's weathering a storm.

Fox's ease of gimping Wolf gives him the extra advantage that I think really makes this match a true skill toss-up.

§witch · Oct 8, 2008

Fox has fair recovery, his recovery is far superior to woof's.

Ishiey · Oct 8, 2008

^ forgot about that ._.

JCav · Oct 8, 2008

id say 50:50

fox can u tilt alone wolf pretty badly and fox doesnt have the mobility of wolf but fox has killing power...

Collective of Bears · Oct 8, 2008

Let the stupid quotes roll!

"Can't let you do that, Star Fox!"
"What the heck!?"
"You're good, but I'm better!"

Now that that's out of my system... I'd say 50:50 or 55:45 in Fox's favor.

-Mars- · Oct 8, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
lawl

Fox has to approach. Period. He can't Shine Wolfs blaster back, since it hasn't enough range. Hoe the **** is Fox supposed to ever land one of these "****" combos? He has to get in close. Most of Wolfs attacks are faster than Foxs and have three times as much range. Good luck landing a dair there. Also as a Fox player you shouldn't talk about gimping ;P

Wow, this gave me a pretty good chuckle. Where should I begin?

You can not make the argument about approaches, both characters have a shine. Either your both gonna sit there in your shine or your both going to approach and play the game the way it's supposed to be played.

Now for approach options let's see........Wolf has bair and a lagless fair, while Fox has fair(I believe it has more priority than Wolfs bair), nair and land behind your shield, dashing into a shield, and even SH uairs and bairs. I think they're pretty even in approaches, I think Foxs speed might give him a slight edge, but it's pretty even.

I don't know where people get the idea that Wolf is faster in battle than Fox............because of his lagless fair and bair? He is a lot faster than Fox in falling speed and Horizontal air speed, but his advantage ends there. Utilt is going to outspeed about anything you have besides your Jab, and it outprioritizes that. Wolfs dsmash may come out a lil faster than Foxs' usmash, but it's minimal at best. Fox can dash into a shield and then has so many options against Wolf. Utit, usmash, dsmash, nair......he's really gonna outspeed Wolf on the ground which is where Fox is going to be playing the majority of the match.

Wolf does out range Fox and it's probably the reason why most of you think he has the advantage. Fsmash is quick and has a lot of range, bair has good range but thats it. I really don't think fsmash is that great, your just asking to get shield grabbed.

Fox combos the h*** out of Wolf. He falls so fast, all we need is one utilt and your down 50%. Dair isn't that hard to land, shine stall mindgames easily lead to a dair or one mistake by you and one dair later it's another 30%. Once we get to 70%, dair starts to combo into dsmash and this is a nightmare for Wolf. His recovery is so pathetic, dsmash by the edge at 70% will lead into an easy edgeguard. At 105%, dair combos into usmash or we could just use it out of shield and you die. Fox will be killing Wolf easily in this match, much easier than you can kill Fox.

I'm gonna say 55-45 Fox, i'll add some more stuff later if any of you Wolf mains have anything worth responding to.

ElPadrino · Oct 8, 2008

[QUOTE="Marsulas]I'm gonna say 55-45 Fox, i'll add some more stuff later if any of you Wolf mains have anything worth responding to.[/QUOTE]

I do.

[QUOTE="Marsulas]

Now for approach options let's see........Wolf has bair and a lagless fair, while Fox has fair(I believe it has more priority than Wolfs bair), nair and land behind your shield, dashing into a shield, and even SH uairs and bairs. I think they're pretty even in approaches, I think Foxs speed might give him a slight edge, but it's pretty even[/QUOTE]

Fox's Fair is easily shieldgrabbed, also due to Wolf's exelent horizontal air movement he can DI out of the final hit, punishing Fox's lag badly

[QUOTE="Marsulas]I don't know where people get the idea that Wolf is faster in battle than Fox............because of his lagless fair and bair? He is a lot faster than Fox in falling speed and Horizontal air speed, but his advantage ends there. Utilt is going to outspeed about anything you have besides your Jab, and it outprioritizes that. Wolfs dsmash may come out a lil faster than Foxs' usmash, but it's minimal at best. Fox can dash into a shield and then has so many options against Wolf. Utit, usmash, dsmash, nair......he's really gonna outspeed Wolf on the ground which is where Fox is going to be playing the majority of the match. [/QUOTE]

Heh, where to begin?

Firstly U-tilt does not outprioritizes Wolfs jab, iirc they clank (or share hits I can't remember)

Second. Wolf's D-smash comes very quickly, and has more range that Fox's Up-Smash.

Third. Fox outspeeds Wolf in the ground on dashing/walking speed not on attacks, I'm pretty sure Wolf has faster attacks than Fox. Plus Wolf having a better aerial game.

[QUOTE="Marsulas]Wolf does out range Fox and it's probably the reason why most of you think he has the advantage. Fsmash is quick and has a lot of range, bair has good range but thats it. I really don't think fsmash is that great, your just asking to get shield grabbed.
[/QUOTE]

Again, where to begin?

Bair doesn't just "have good range and that's it", it has great speed, great damage almost no lag whatsoever as well as having very decent knockback when used fresh (wich will not happen most of the time, unless used after being KOed)

I can't believe you dare call our F-Smash easily shieldgrabable (not saying tha it isn't), when Fox's has as much lag and comes out slower. If you played any good Wolves recently you should know we use F-Smash strictly for punishing, and being deployed on frame 5 and having that much range makes it one of the best punishers in the game.

[QUOTE="Marsulas]Fox combos the h*** out of Wolf. He falls so fast, all we need is one utilt and your down 50%. Dair isn't that hard to land, shine stall mindgames easily lead to a dair or one mistake by you and one dair later it's another 30%. Once we get to 70%, dair starts to combo into dsmash and this is a nightmare for Wolf. His recovery is so pathetic, dsmash by the edge at 70% will lead into an easy edgeguard. At 105%, dair combos into usmash or we could just use it out of shield and you die. Fox will be killing Wolf easily in this match, much easier than you can kill Fox
[/QUOTE]

You're comparing as if playing against a noobish Wolf, we don't fall prey to those so easily.
While I do agree on Fox's Up Special being better than Wolf's, he in no way has better options when returning into the stage (that if we don't get gimped, there lies our problem).

Also you have to be kidding me on Fox killing Wolf way easier than Wolf killing fox.
For starters Wolf is heavier than Fox, his downsmash is an excelent kill move, as good as Fox's Up-Smash but easier to hit with, our blaser can gimpy certain recoveries sometimes, as opposed to Fox's, Bair will interrupt FireFox (I might be wrong here, feel free to correct me) which is more predictable than Wolfs, and lastly we have 2 Meteor Smashes (Dair and sweespotted side-b on certain circumstances), both of them incredibly handy that gives us an opportunity to get more early kills.

So, squeeeeze me. :rolleyes:

Sesshomuronay · Oct 8, 2008

I still think its wolfs favor, I dont really see how fox has any advantages over wolf.

-Mars- · Oct 8, 2008

ElPadrino said:
I do.

Fox's Fair is easily shieldgrabbed, also due to Wolf's exelent horizontal air movement he can DI out of the final hit, punishing Fox's lag badly

You don't know the mechanics of the move at all, I can approach and due to the boost you receive from using it directly after a jump, land away from you with no danger of being punished. Fair has no lag whatsoever if used properly and you being able to DI out of the final hit matters little.

Heh, where to begin?

Firstly U-tilt does not outprioritizes Wolfs jab, iirc they clank (or share hits I can't remember)

Second. Wolf's D-smash comes very quickly, and has more range that Fox's Up-Smash.

Third. Fox outspeeds Wolf in the ground on dashing/walking speed not on attacks, I'm pretty sure Wolf has faster attacks than Fox. Plus Wolf having a better aerial game.

Utilt comes faster than dsmash, you still have no answer for the utilt. In fact, like I mentioned before utilt outspeeds everything but your jab so you don't have faster attacks than Fox.

Again, where to begin?

Bair doesn't just "have good range and that's it", it has great speed, great damage almost no lag whatsoever as well as having very decent knockback when used fresh (wich will not happen most of the time, unless used after being KOed)

I can't believe you dare call our F-Smash easily shieldgrabable (not saying tha it isn't), when Fox's has as much lag and comes out slower. If you played any good Wolves recently you should know we use F-Smash strictly for punishing, and being deployed on frame 5 and having that much range makes it one of the best punishers in the game.

No Fox is going to be using fsmash, just like yours it's strictly used as a punisher and Fox has better options even for that. Fsmash should almost never be used. Sure fsmash is a good punisher, but if your going to strictly use it for that, your range advantage is lessened even more.

You're comparing as if playing against a noobish Wolf, we don't fall prey to those so easily.
While I do agree on Fox's Up Special being better than Wolf's, he in no way has better options when returning into the stage (that if we don't get gimped, there lies our problem).

Also you have to be kidding me on Fox killing Wolf way easier than Wolf killing fox.
For starters Wolf is heavier than Fox, his downsmash is an excelent kill move, as good as Fox's Up-Smash but easier to hit with, our blaser can gimpy certain recoveries sometimes, as opposed to Fox's, Bair will interrupt FireFox (I might be wrong here, feel free to correct me) which is more predictable than Wolfs, and lastly we have 2 Meteor Smashes (Dair and sweespotted side-b on certain circumstances), both of them incredibly handy that gives us an opportunity to get more early kills.

So, squeeeeze me.

Foxs' recovery is a lot better than Wolfs........it's not even debateable. If Wolf uses his upb, he's as good as dead so he's limited to only using sideb, which is very predictable. He has no other means of recovering, sometimes he can mix it up with an upb onto the stage, but that's it. Upb has pretty sad distance as well, ledge scarring and those weird tricks you guys do with sideb are a nice mixup but even those are easily punishable.

Fox has a plethora of options he can use. Most of the time, we don't even need to use a recovery move, because of the fair recovery, our specials also greatly outrange yours. FireFox sweetspots the ledge and goes further, how on Earth do you think FireWolf is better? Fox can also mix in shine stalls to even further our unpredictability......the offstage game is completely in Foxs' favor in this matchup.

Sure, Wolfs' dsmash is great, but due to how fast it is, it's gonna be one of your primary ground moves and will be decayed. Foxs' usmash won't be decayed(laser refreshing) and thus kill earlier than Wolfs' dsmash. Also, it is in no way easier to hit with, we can use usmash out of a dash, thus making it one of the greatest punishers in the game. Lol, we can shinestall, your blaster is no problem for us off the stage. Anything pretty much will hit us out of FireFOx, you not knowing that shows how little you know about Fox and your spikes have NO effect on this match.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 8, 2008

Lol wolfs Up-B is at least faster than fox's. Plus side-B has not 1, not 2 but 3 ways of cancelling it! If you do it one way you can get a ton of horizontal distance. Plus not all wolves spam d-smash, some save it for being used as a kill move. Plus wolf's f-smash is one of the best punishers in the game which is still better than whatever you said about the running up-smash.

ElPadrino · Oct 8, 2008

Marsulas said:
further, how on Earth do you think FireWolf is better?

ElPadrino said:
While I do agree on Fox's Up Special being better than Wolf's...

Read carefully next time please.

*sigh*

I could go on and respond to those comments YET AGAIN, but it's pointless, because you will find responses for them as well.

This is why I hate matchups threads, the person mianing the character will be always on his/her favor, even if uncounsiously; therefore losing objectivity.

I'm gonna go ahead and excuse myself from this argument, believe watever you want to believe, in the end the one who's right will be proven on the matches.

All I'm gonna say is that I believe the matchup is 60:40 Wolf's favor.

-Mars- · Oct 8, 2008

ElPadrino said:
Read carefully next time please.

*sigh*

I could go on and respond to those comments YET AGAIN, but it's pointless, because you will find responses for them as well.

This is why I hate matchups threads, the person mianing the character will be always on his/her favor, even if uncounsiously; therefore losing objectivity.

I'm gonna go ahead and excuse myself from this argument, believe watever you want to believe, in the end the one who's right will be proven on the matches.

All I'm gonna say is that I believe the matchup is 60:40 Wolf's favor.

It's pretty sad when you argue once, are refuted, then refuse to respond to my points.

No, I am an objective Fox player, if a matchup is clearly in the opponents favor, I will agree to it such as: Marth, G&W, MK, Falco, Kirby, etc........this matchup is not an automatic decision so it should be debated.

Excuse yourself from the argument, I don't care........your points were refuted and you left.......nice.

tyler___ · Oct 9, 2008

Alright this is kinda pissing me off. Wolf does NOT have a terrible recovery. It may be hard to control but it is NOT bad, and you can get used to the hard to control part and make it not as hard to control.. It comes out faster than Fox's and has pretty comperable range and has like the same **** movement. We have a spike which will work for Fox's 2-second-to-activate recovery.

So please stop this 'ooh wulf has uber bad recuvvery mann' stuff.

ElPadrino · Oct 9, 2008

marsulas said:
It's pretty sad when you argue once, are refuted, then refuse to respond to my points.

No, I am an objective Fox player, if a matchup is clearly in the opponents favor, I will agree to it such as: Marth, G&W, MK, Falco, Kirby, etc........this matchup is not an automatic decision so it should be debated.

Excuse yourself from the argument, I don't care........your points were refuted and you left.......nice.

Umm no, I'm not "running away" from the argument, I'm just leaving it at that.

You refutes were flimsy and lacking of proper evidence, me saying "omfgz liek no fox sucks woof is betah" on your refutes is gonna cause nothing but pointless arguments.

So please stop with this badass, condescending attitude; it's doing no good to anyone.

As for Wolf's recovery, it's not that predictable on the right hands.

Wolf Flash is great for recovering horizontally, and it's the edgehoggers nightmare. If you're consistent in cancelling the Flash on the last possible frame you're gonna get a ridiculously good horizontal recovery, but that is really hard.

As for FireWolf, it is terrible when used diagonally, it's best when used vertically, and surprisingly decent when used horizontally, he goes a little forward after ending the move if used horizontally, as opposed to the diagonal one were he stops abruptly and falls straight down.

The one thing that screws Wolf recovery besides good edgeguarders like ROB or DDD are stage lips; take for example FD, you will have to use FireWolf exactly below the edge since if you go too far you'll end up stuck on the lip, and if you do it too soon you'll end up not grabbing the edge due to Wolf horrible ledge sweetspot.

castorpollux · Oct 9, 2008

Let's compare metagames instead of the scrubby wolfs you fox players think you can gimp. Germ > any fox player I can think of. Hence wolf > fox. The End.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 9, 2008

Yea Wolf Is Sheer Ownage!!!

Lol I can guess the results of this thread now...

Heroes_Never_Die · Oct 9, 2008

I'd say it's 50:50 or very close, since neither side has anything that sticks out as a great advantage over the other.

KramerDsmash · Oct 9, 2008

Padrino you don't have to excuse yourself from the conversation. We should excuse Marsulas because he is embarrassing himself.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

marsulas said:
Wow, this gave me a pretty good chuckle. Where should I begin?

You can not make the argument about approaches, both characters have a shine. Either your both gonna sit there in your shine or your both going to approach and play the game the way it's supposed to be played.

That's exactly what Wolf wants to.

Now for approach options let's see........Wolf has bair and a lagless fair, while Fox has fair(I believe it has more priority than Wolfs bair), nair and land behind your shield, dashing into a shield, and even SH uairs and bairs. I think they're pretty even in approaches, I think Foxs speed might give him a slight edge, but it's pretty even.

*facepalm*

Foxs fair has certainly not the same poriority as Wolfs bair -_- (and lol I'm not even talking about the lack of range - one Shieldgrab = 11% dmg)

I don't know where people get the idea that Wolf is faster in battle than Fox............because of his lagless fair and bair?

And the fsmash and the dsmash and the nair and the uair and ...

He is a lot faster than Fox in falling speed and Horizontal air speed, but his advantage ends there.

Fox falls faster than Wolf -_-

Utilt is going to outspeed about anything you have besides your Jab, and it outprioritizes that.

Bair, 0 lag fair and Shine would like to have a word with you

Wolfs dsmash may come out a lil faster than Foxs' usmash, but it's minimal at best.

Yeah, I covered that in teh OP

Fox can dash into a shield and then has so many options against Wolf.

If you consider getting shieldgrabbed an option, I agree...

Utit, usmash, dsmash, nair......he's really gonna outspeed Wolf on the ground which is where Fox is going to be playing the majority of the match.

Please check the frame rates, before you make false claims. Wolfs Jabs, his bair and 0 lag fair are all faster, have more priority and much more range

Wolf does out range Fox and it's probably the reason why most of you think he has the advantage.

Read the OP

Fsmash is quick and has a lot of range, bair has good range but thats it. I really don't think fsmash is that great, your just asking to get shield grabbed.

Again you didn't prove Foxs strenght but merely the fact, that you know nothing of Wolf.

1.) ftilt has the same range as Marths fsmash. Retain
2.) dtilt has more range than any move of fox except blaster
3.) Wolf uses fsmash only, when he hits the opponent for sure aka punishing

Fox combos the h*** out of Wolf. He falls so fast, all we need is one utilt and your down 50%.

No he doesn't. Fox has to get in range, something you didn't respond to in your entire post.

Dair isn't that hard to land, shine stall mindgames easily lead to a dair or one mistake by you and one dair later it's another 30%.

Yeah, a Wolf player falls for these pathetic mindgames every single time. Not to mention the fact, that mindgames = player skill and has thus nothing to do with the match-up itself

Once we get to 70%, dair starts to combo into dsmash and this is a nightmare for Wolf.

lol yeah. Fox is a stock down, once Wolf has 70%. And you still ignore the fact, that Fox can't get in range

His recovery is so pathetic, dsmash by the edge at 70% will lead into an easy edgeguard.

"Foxs recovery is so pathetic, one dtilt/dthrow at the edge at 50% will lead to an easy edgeguard lololololololololol"

C WHAT I DID THAR???!!!11!?!

At 105%, dair combos into usmash or we could just use it out of shield and you die.

Fox dies at ~90% by a fresh dsmash

Fox will be killing Wolf easily in this match, much easier than you can kill Fox.

Since I have profen you wrong many times: NO!!!

I'm gonna say 55-45 Fox, i'll add some more stuff later if any of you Wolf mains have anything worth responding to.

I'm curious about your response -_-

_X_ · Oct 9, 2008

Let's just say 50/50

Wolf has priority and range but Fox has combos and moar speed. Wolf's recovery isn't great and he's heavy but not heavy enough to get past upsmash at reasonable percent.

Wolf's Lazorz hurt Fox's approach, which is lackluster to begin with, but should seriously trouble Fox. Wolf's Down-smash is epic but it's somewhat hard to set up.

Stages are pretty impotent in this match up considering;

Wolf kills horizontally (down smash + F-smash etc)

Fox kills vertically (Upsmash ftw)

Exceptions to these are Fox's down smash being easily combo from dair at some-what low percentages (killing vertically)and Wolf's F-air and upsmash do the trick horizontally.

It's anyone's game imo.

Duo55 · Oct 9, 2008

§witch said:
Same reversed dude, wolf reflecting fox's won't reach either. Fox's faster firing rate allows him to shoot hit you, and still get his sheild up to block your laser. Fox's out of sheild game is amazing, which is needed vs wolf. Fox combo/gimps wolf to hell and back, and doesn't have trouble KOing.

Umm, no. Wolfs reflector restores range, and increaces velocity. Its far superior to Foxs in terms of offensive use and defensive use. The I frames you get from wolfs reflector are actually quite useful, combine that with the decent range it has, and you got a really effective approach counter (something 90% of wolves fail to apply correctly), and if they were close enough to wolf when the reflector was engauged, then it true combos with the F-smash. Fox Reflector is great for mind games, and gimping, but when it comes to using the actual "reflecting" part of the reflector, wolf wins the war by miles. Wolf can out camp fox. No doubt about it.

marsulas said:
Foxs' recovery is a lot better than Wolfs........it's not even debateable. If Wolf uses his upb, he's as good as dead so he's limited to only using sideb, which is very predictable. He has no other means of recovering, sometimes he can mix it up with an upb onto the stage, but that's it. Upb has pretty sad distance as well, ledge scarring and those weird tricks you guys do with sideb are a nice mixup but even those are easily punishable.

Uh, yeah.... maybe if your fighting a retard, the side B is easy to punish... (don't get me wrong... the wolf community is... lacking when it comes to ppl who actually know wolfs characer) but besides that fact, if wolf is played correctly his side B will most likely not be punished, because it won't be used for anything but recovery. And its an extremely useful move at what it does. (good luck shining it btw)

Fox has a plethora of options he can use. Most of the time, we don't even need to use a recovery move, because of the fair recovery, our specials also greatly outrange yours. FireFox sweetspots the ledge and goes further, how on Earth do you think FireWolf is better? Fox can also mix in shine stalls to even further our unpredictability......the offstage game is completely in Foxs' favor in this matchup

I'll agree with this.

Sure, Wolfs' dsmash is great, but due to how fast it is, it's gonna be one of your primary ground moves and will be decayed. Foxs' usmash won't be decayed(laser refreshing) and thus kill earlier than Wolfs' dsmash. Also, it is in no way easier to hit with, we can use usmash out of a dash, thus making it one of the greatest punishers in the game. Lol, we can shinestall, your blaster is no problem for us off the stage. Anything pretty much will hit us out of FireFOx, you not knowing that shows how little you know about Fox and your spikes have NO effect on this match.

Thats the thing about the D-smash... wolves don't care if it gets decayed to hell, the use it as a means to get Fox off of them, so they can go back to the dominating spaced arieals, and laser spam. Thats it. Heres a little fun fact for the fox players as well. Wolfs undeminished U-smash kills Fox only 10% (two laser shots) more damage than Fox undeminished U-smash on wolf. If Wolf spaces properly with lagless aireals, and lasers, and use D-smash, grabs, and reflector to stop approaches, things get complicated for Fox... Wolf 55/45 Fox

Sesshomuronay said:
Lol wolfs Up-B is at least faster than fox's. Plus side-B has not 1, not 2 but 3 ways of cancelling it! If you do it one way you can get a ton of horizontal distance. Plus not all wolves spam d-smash, some save it for being used as a kill move. Plus wolf's f-smash is one of the best punishers in the game which is still better than whatever you said about the running up-smash.

Wolfs up-b sucks. End of descusion. Wolf can cancel side-b ? So can fox, and nobody cares. That technique is rarely of any use.

Ishiey · Oct 9, 2008

Marsulas, just take a break with the attitude, there's no need for that, especially when part of what you're saying is wrong/objective.

I don't have much fox experience, but I doubt I'm pulling stuff out of my *** when I say wolf has the advantage in the air. Does fox have any answer to well spaced bairs and fairs?

EDIT: and we've been over this on the boards, wolf should only use dsmash for killing. Against a good wolf, it will most likely be fresh.

Duo55 · Oct 9, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
That's exactly what Wolf wants to.

*facepalm*

Foxs fair has certainly not the same poriority as Wolfs bair -_- (and lol I'm not even talking about the lack of range - one Shieldgrab = 11% dmg)

And the fsmash and the dsmash and the nair and the uair and ...

Fox falls faster than Wolf -_-

Bair, 0 lag fair and Shine would like to have a word with you

Yeah, I covered that in teh OP

If you consider getting shieldgrabbed an option, I agree...

Please check the frame rates, before you make false claims. Wolfs Jabs, his bair and 0 lag fair are all faster, have more priority and much more range

Read the OP

Again you didn't prove Foxs strenght but merely the fact, that you know nothing of Wolf.

1.) ftilt has the same range as Marths fsmash. Retain
2.) dtilt has more range than any move of fox except blaster
3.) Wolf uses fsmash only, when he hits the opponent for sure aka punishing

No he doesn't. Fox has to get in range, something you didn't respond to in your entire post.

Yeah, a Wolf player falls for these pathetic mindgames every single time. Not to mention the fact, that mindgames = player skill and has thus nothing to do with the match-up itself

lol yeah. Fox is a stock down, once Wolf has 70%. And you still ignore the fact, that Fox can't get in range

"Foxs recovery is so pathetic, one dtilt/dthrow at the edge at 50% will lead to an easy edgeguard lololololololololol"

C WHAT I DID THAR???!!!11!?!

Fox dies at ~90% by a fresh dsmash

Since I have profen you wrong many times: NO!!!

I'm curious about your response -_-

All your post are assuming that you can predict Fox perfectly every time. Get off your high horse. And calling the shine stall a pethetic mind game? Better players than you have fallen/ still falling for it today. Fact is, wolf has a slight advantage, but hes in no position to get confortable, thinking like yours is going to cause you to lose the match, due to underestimation.

Duo55 · Oct 9, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
Marsulas, just take a break with the attitude, there's no need for that, especially when part of what you're saying is wrong/objective.

I don't have much fox experience, but I doubt I'm pulling stuff out of my *** when I say wolf has the advantage in the air. Does fox have any answer to well spaced bairs and fairs?

EDIT: and we've been over this on the boards, wolf should only use dsmash for killing. Against a good wolf, it will most likely be fresh.

Srry for the double post, but you can say "save d-smash for killing" all you want, but if a good wolf goes up against a good Fox, you'll have no chioce but to spam it, either that or get tech chased up one side of the stage, and down the other.

Fenrir VII · Oct 9, 2008

Duo makes the best points in the thread so far...

As for recovery, You cannot equate the two... it's impossible. Fox has better edgeguarding options than Wolf and a better recovery... so he should get back on the stage more often.

A Fox drop off, second jump, Dair or nair but outprioritize and hit Wolf's side b, dair slowly spikes him and leads to a shine spike. This also is a (mostly) fail-safe as normal side b, several of the cancels, and upB all come ROUGHLY the same timing.. of course they are quite different, but are such that both nair and bair will hit either of them. if you delay and upB to avoid the aerial, Fox can get on the ledge faster than you can...and you die.

Fox should never try to shine spike the sideB... he has two VERY good lasting aerials that hit it out and lead to better edgeguarding options themselves. If either hit, especially Dair, Wolf is usually put into a position in which he has to use his upB, which is an auto shine spike... you can shine spike THROUGH it quite easily...often even after the upB hits Fox, so yeah..

You can say "Wolf edgeguards fox at 50% to death" or whatever, but his lack of lasting aerials like that...Fox's MUCH improved second jump with fair...shine stalling off the stage and a more adaptable timing of recovery (Firefox is slow, yes, but can be used when an illusion is expected to really screw things up) give Fox a HUGE advantage here. If wolf guesses and edge guard wrong and goes for ANYTHING off-stage, he's at huge risk of death here...

I know the shine spike isn't amazing as Fox... it won't hit sideB most of the time... but Fox's lasting aerials give him the upper hand against both Wolf and Falco off stage.

I'll comment on the rest of the match later... I'm pretty busy... so yeah...I just wanted to clarify all that.

You keep talking about Fox's approach, but I can say basically the same about Wolf's approach here... Most of what Wolf has will get hit by a shield usmash if timed correctly.

Fox's fair is lagless and cannot be shield grabbed. DI doesn't matter here. Fox's pwg is quite good against a shield as it is unpunishable out of shield or dodge... And also, you have nothing that hits out of shield, assuming Fox lands behind you.

Yes, if Fox runs in and SH dairs, you can get a shield grab, but a delayed nair there is a different story as it lands behind the shield if the Fox player wants... Fox can then shield before anything you can do out of shield connects.

Also, Fox's running shield game is only punishable by a grab, and that even can be dodged... if you don't grab, Fox gets a free grab at least.

I realize I'm talking mindgames here, and that's a huge no no in matchup discussion, apparently, but I certainly believe it's applicable to show you that Fox can approach and has options here.. Everything Fox has is based on what his opponent does, but he also has options for everything you can do..

I say it's a straight 5-5 match, personally...

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

Duo55 said:
Srry for the double post, but you can say "save d-smash for killing" all you want, but if a good wolf goes up against a good Fox, you'll have no chioce but to spam it, either that or get tech chased up one side of the stage, and down the other.

Sorry but this is complete BS. No Wolf will ever have to spam dsmash.
Obviously, you do not know very much about Wolf, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.
You ignore many facts: Wolf is faster in battle, Wolf KOs Fox earlier, Wolf wins in range, Wolf wins in priority, Wolf wins in the air and on the ground.

Seriously 60:40 isn't too much asked and since when does that imply anything else than a slight advantage?

Ishiey · Oct 9, 2008

This might sound stupid, but what's pwg? Anyways, I'm pretty convinced that this matchup will fall down to how the players handle eachother's mindgames... Aerials that don't last long are a slight disadvantage in general, but that doesn't mean they can't be used effectively offstage, they just need stricter timing. For wolf, I'd think that rising reflector when recovering would be helpful, reflector offstage on fastfallers is a passable edgeguarding technique, which might make fox thing twice about harassing wolf offstage.

§witch · Oct 9, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
Sorry but this is complete BS. No Wolf will ever have to spam dsmash.
Obviously, you do not know very much about Wolf, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.
You ignore many facts:

Wolf is faster in battle
Not one bit, fox's attacks come out wicked fast as well, most of them will trade off.

Wolf KOs Fox earlier
......................................No, just no.

Wolf wins in range
Yes.

Wolf wins in priority
If by priority you mean "bair."

Wolf wins in the air
Fox doesn't need to be in the air for any prolonged period of time. And his nair clanks with bair.

and on the ground.
Quite possibly.

Seriously 60:40 isn't too much asked and since when does that imply anything else than a slight advantage?

Comments in red.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

awesome comments "no", "yes", "no u", "no just no". You pwned me ...

Fenrir VII · Oct 9, 2008

You didn't respond to me yet... : /

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

Forgive me...

Fenrir VII said:
As for recovery, You cannot equate the two... it's impossible. Fox has better edgeguarding options than Wolf and a better recovery... so he should get back on the stage more often.

No. It depends too much on the situations. There are angles, where Wolf can't make it back. There are angles, where Fox can't make it back. Wolf can recover from angles, that Fox could never hope to and vice versa. Edgeguarding...Wolf has a spike. And dropping from the ledge -> Shine -> djump -> dair -> UpB is almost guaranteed to spike Fox. I'm not questioning Foxs KO ability in the first place ... neither in battle nor at edgeguarding...

You keep talking about Fox's approach, but I can say basically the same about Wolf's approach here... Most of what Wolf has will get hit by a shield usmash if timed correctly.

Not really. A perfectly spaced bair with DI away from Fox is hard to punish, at least not with grabs. Even usmash is very unlikely to hit and if it does hit ... it's not fresh anymore when he needs it. Besides, since when does Wolf have to approach?

Fox's fair is lagless and cannot be shield grabbed. DI doesn't matter here. Fox's pwg is quite good against a shield as it is unpunishable out of shield or dodge... And also, you have nothing that hits out of shield, assuming Fox lands behind you.

Fsmash would like to have a word with you

Yes, if Fox runs in and SH dairs, you can get a shield grab, but a delayed nair there is a different story as it lands behind the shield if the Fox player wants... Fox can then shield before anything you can do out of shield connects.

And what's the point of doing this?

Also, Fox's running shield game is only punishable by a grab, and that even can be dodged... if you don't grab, Fox gets a free grab at least.

Ok, so fox game consists only of running shields, which are unpunishable? Now I understand why fox goes even with MK and beats Snake 70:30

§witch · Oct 9, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
awesome comments "no", "yes", "no u", "no just no". You pwned me ...

Yep, ignoring my points makes you look REALLY intelligent.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

what points? you said fox is faster, "no just no", "yes", something about bair...

Turbo Ether · Oct 9, 2008

This is why I stay away from matchup threads now. The misinformation and bias is astounding.

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