Match-Up discussion #21: Zelda / Sheik

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 9, 2008

We're doing Zelda AND Sheik...

Zelda:

Not too difficult. She's nasty, since she outcamps you - no joke, she really does. Her neutral B and dins fire beat your reflector + blaster for some stupid reason. She's also strong on the ground and hard to approach which limits your options. However, she's easily finished and can't rack up as much dmg as you can. Play carefully here and not overly agressive, since her smashes OoS are rapesome.

55:45 Zelda's favour

Sheik:

She's worse for you than Zelda. Her ftilt lock means 100% dmg, which sucks but it's not easy for her to pull off, if you manage to outspace her. Sheik also can easy capitalice from your mistakes so don't do anything fancy or risky unless you want to get beaten up big time.
She has finishing issues, so she'll most likely transform to Zelda at ~100%. Make use of your superior range and don't give her many chances to attack and you can beat her - Omniswell showed us how it wors, when he defeated Ankoku's Sheik.

60:40 Sheik

Overall:

Sheik will do the damage, Zelda will finish - as usual actually, however Zelda adds almost nothin Sheik can't do so it's 60:40 ind their favour overall...

Discuss

Tristan_win · Oct 9, 2008

Well for starts if you Di correctly Sheik should never be able to get a Wolf to 100% from a tilt lock, there's plenty of ways to get around it before it get's anywhere near that high.

Second din fire sucks as does her reflector just don't spam your laser at her and dodge her din because of Zelda fat she wont be able to set up anything if you do dodge or even shield it.

Third, I love the fear you have in your post but overall the match up is still pretty even. It might be in sheik and Zelda favor but even so Wolf is good enough to easily win the match if like you said you space well enough.

Ishiey · Oct 9, 2008

Yeah, the DI for ftilt lock is towards sheik, then once you're on the ground behind her, run for it. Din's fire sucks for sure, but I keep falling prey to her neutral B for some reason. Zelda's smashes own wolf reeeeally badly, along with anything else that involves glowy magic. Slight advantage for the pair.

Tristan_win · Oct 9, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
Yeah, the DI for ftilt lock is towards sheik, then once you're on the ground behind her, run for it. Din's fire sucks for sure, but I keep falling prey to her neutral B for some reason. Zelda's smashes own wolf reeeeally badly, along with anything else that involves glowy magic. Slight advantage for the pair.

I laugh at the advise to just Di toward sheik and run.

Unfortunate for the Wolf forum I'm too cut throat to tell you how to really get out of the tilt lock. You will all just have to wait until Anokoku shows up or someone else who has a better written example about how to escape then what ishieymoro said.

Matador · Oct 9, 2008

Tristan_win said:
I laugh at the advise to just Di toward sheik and run.

Unfortunate for the Wolf forum I'm too cut throat to tell you how to really get out of the tilt lock. You will all just have to wait until Anokoku shows up or someone else who has a better written example about how to escape then what ishieymoro said.

Lmao. <3 TW
How does Shiek do in gimping Wolf if you can get him offstage?

Collective of Bears · Oct 9, 2008

Matador said:
Lmao. <3 TW
How does Shiek do in gimping Wolf if you can get him offstage?

Fair, I'd say.

I'm going with 55:55 for both in the opposition's favor.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

Sheik can fair to ftilt, dash attack to ftilt (sometimes), jab ftilt, dtilt dtilt ftilt, and especially against Wolf, ftilt out of shield.

I'm not really good with ftilt but Ryoko is and he told me that if ftilt is decayed enough then it combos into Sheik's tipper usmash at a KO %, which is in fact stronger than Zelda's usmash.

If Wolf gets hit by an aerial by Sheik while trying to recover he's kind of screwed.

I wouldn't look to me for an ideal Sheik since I just do stuff and play relatively unsafe, but then again there aren't many Sheiks to begin with, let alone high level Sheiks like RyokoYaksa (who's more a Zelda main than a Sheik main), but I believe that in a proper game, Sheik should have somewhere between a 60-40 and a 65-35 matchup against Wolf. Same when adding Transform into the mix.

I have no input on the solo Zelda matchup.

snadmonkey · Oct 9, 2008

how the hell does zelda have an advantage against wolf. She has an almost non existant air game compared to wolf, easy to edge gaurd, even for wolf. most or her moves are very laggy and easily punishable, you can smash di out of her 2 glowing smashes. The one thing that truely makes things hellacious against zelda is her very strong/fast downsmash. Fortunently wolf has a good one to, stay medium range and poke away, when she makes her move punish.

Sheik met, wolf can escape the ftilt lock, which way you di depends on ur precent most of the time. The big thing to know about sheik is that she has one of the weakest DI's in the game, and wolf has one of the highest. Stay in the air and abuse ur superier DI. Avoid Bf, platforms to perfect for Usmash from sheik. A decent wolf should be use to people trying to gimp him and should be able to avoid low precent gimps from sheik. At medium precents sheik's tilt combos can rack up good damage, but that is the only thing sheik really has going for her, make sure to edge hog if she's far enough out, forces her to up b over ledge and it has alot of landing lag, stand(not ledge attack or jump) and grab or fsmash etc. Save ur downsmash, and ko sheik at 70%.

Wolf > Zelda easily
Wolf = Sheik

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Oct 9, 2008

Tristan_win said:
Well for starts if you Di correctly Sheik should never be able to get a Wolf to 100% from a tilt lock, there's plenty of ways to get around it before it get's anywhere near that high.

Second din fire sucks as does her reflector just don't spam your laser at her and dodge her din because of Zelda fat she wont be able to set up anything if you do dodge or even shield it.

Third, I love the fear you have in your post but overall the match up is still pretty even. It might be in sheik and Zelda favor but even so Wolf is good enough to easily win the match if like you said you space well enough.

you are right about DI and din's ... but it's not really enough to change the matchups. I still agree with his numbers

55:45 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
60:40... MAYBE 65:35 Zelda/Sheik

Ishiey · Oct 9, 2008

Then someone mind correcting me? For the ftilt lock, DI towards sheik and down, this is to get on the ground and behind sheik so you can dodge because it takes longer for sheik to turn around. Once you are on the ground, you can shield the turnaround ftilt or spotdodge it or roll away, and this is where I'm not sure what the best option is.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

Sheik's Up+B does not have a lot of landing lag at the correct heights, especially compared to Melee Sheik. The ftilt lock is entirely inescapable if started at around 40%.

snadmonkey · Oct 9, 2008

I said medium precent didn't I. The up b has plenty enough lag to stand and grab, especially since you can see it coming a mile ahead of time. Wolf can escape the ftilt lock eventually, and avoid the upsmash if di'n appropiately or jumping.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 9, 2008

I actually feel that its pretty even. 50:50 for both zelda and shiek.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

If you're ftilting before 40% then it's not a real ftilt lock. It'd be like saying in Melee Fox can escape Peach's chaingrab at low %. Well obviously because it doesn't start until 20%!

DI is a funny thing, but the choices are DI toward and get usmashed or DI away and get nair'd into Transform.

SwastikaPyle · Oct 9, 2008

I don't know crap about the Sheik matchup but Zelda most definitely does NOT have an advantage against Wolf. His laser is much faster then Din's, has no stun time, she usually can't reflect it back (due to it's short length). His bair is fantastic at beating Zelda's air game.

If she's far away and spamming Dins, just hold down+b until she approaches. Throw in a laser right as she casts and you'll still have time for any defensive options.

Zelda's smash attacks are her main strengths, but Wolf has ways around them. This match is at least 60:40 in Wolf's favor.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Oct 9, 2008

Swastika is wrong... if the zelda is dumb enough to spam din's when it's not safe she deserves to lose... that doesn't make Wolf favoured... that makes zelda an idiot.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

Then Wolf is favored because Zelda is an idiot.

snadmonkey · Oct 9, 2008

I dislike when non wolf mains come to these char matchup discussions. They never seem to understand wolf and mislabel and understand him. I don't know how a Zelda could even come close to be even with a proper aerial wolf.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

I am a Sheik main who regularly plays with Omniswell. I should hope this qualifies me to know enough about both characters to not misunderstand Wolf.

snadmonkey · Oct 9, 2008

I was referring the people talking about zelda beating out wolf, saying zelda loses cause he's an idiot. But whatever, my second is sheik, so I'm pretty qualified to talk about this one as well.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Oct 9, 2008

snadmonkey said:
I dislike when non wolf mains come to these char matchup discussions. They never seem to understand wolf and mislabel and understand him. I don't know how a Zelda could even come close to be even with a proper aerial wolf.

I dislike when people say they have an advatage against zelda because they have never played a good zelda. We are so few after all. Wolf mains, on the other hand are more common. it's more likely a zelda would have a good grasp on the mathcup than a wolf... and I'll bet you've NEVER played a good zelda/sheik

snadmonkey · Oct 9, 2008

Unfortunently, ur very mistaken sonic. Very few chars I haven't played top versions of, but this is irrelevant. continue to believe what you wish about wolf. I doubt u've truely played a good wolf.

Zankoku · Oct 9, 2008

I doubt any of you are actually good so shut up and let's get back to talking about Wolf, Zelda, and Sheik.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Oct 9, 2008

point is that the match up discussions where only one side gives input are just not as good.

choknater · Oct 9, 2008

Sheik.... BRUTALIZES Wolf...

90:10 cuz he has a laser. (As opposed to Sheik's 100:0 on Ganondorf.)

I consider this Sheik's third best matchup after Ganon and Ness.

Brutal...

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Oct 9, 2008

heh... really? my sheik brutalizes G-Dorf hardcore... but I use zelda for ness since he's not good againts her and I prefer Zelda's playstyle.

Wolf is definitely not a bad matchup for sheik... but 90:10.... really? seems generous to me.

RyokoYaksa · Oct 9, 2008

The only real challenge Wolf has for Sheik is not getting to 40% then get hit with an ftilt lock -> Usmash death. Considering Sheik does have other things to do, this isn't a difficult thing. Also, whatever escape mechanisms you think exist for a proper % tilt lock, Sheik has more control over them than you do.

Unless I really messed up my ftilt -> Usmash KO chance somehow, this match doesn't necessitate Zelda at all.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 10, 2008

If the ftilt lock is escapable at 40% how should Sheik have a 9:1 advantage (lol choknater...) or have a free usmash death. Please guys, make sense!

B!ggad · Oct 10, 2008

Ftilt lock STARTS at 40%. Sheik is then able to ftilt Wolf to high enough percents to kill him with an upsmash.
I don't think it's 90:10 either, though.

TheWildcard · Oct 10, 2008

shiek ***** wolf 65:35 wolf ***** zelda 65:35 imo.

Shiek has so many ways to get wolf to 40% then to get him in a tilt lock, (dash attack to ftilt [sometimes] fair to even dtilt or jab to ftilt, shiek can even ftilt out of shield as fast as her grab) ftilt and its not as easy as DI twords her ankoku catches me in reverse ftilts when i try to di around him, if you get titled at 40% your most likley in alot of pain unless the shiek messed up.

i think alot of wolves have not played good shieks or smart shieks or defensive shieks, in order for wolf to win this he has to play really safe, spaced, advoid or shutdown all of shiek approaches such as fair or ftilt. jabs can lead up to 40% rather quickly. (wow wounds like every wolf matchup :laugh:

)

against zelda you just have to get behind her and laser spam her and bait her smashes, most shieks only use zelda for KO's which means one smash your dead (most likley). and depending on the situation this can be rather difficult to advoid.

shiek is hard but not impossible, zelda is easy but not a fur sure win.

castorpollux · Oct 10, 2008

its funny how wolf doesn't have a good match up on ANYBODY. I really believe that generally, people from the other character boards are just biased. Or.... there are just sooo many bad wolfs, that it makes him seem worse than he really is.

ArcPoint · Oct 10, 2008

Or Wolf is just a relatively bad character, and all the characters have some sort of gay chaingrab/infinite/free 40-60% on Wolf.

And Omniswell pretty much summed it up in my opinion...

choknater · Oct 10, 2008

*shrug* wolf is a space animal, it's destiny for space animals: play perfect, play fast, or be *****

sheik is 90:10 on wolf (i give him that 10 cuz he has a blaster)

Brinzy · Oct 10, 2008

snadmonkey said:
I dislike when non wolf mains come to these char matchup discussions. They never seem to understand wolf and mislabel and understand him. I don't know how a Zelda could even come close to be even with a proper aerial wolf.

I dislike when people think that they can DI Zelda's smash attacks each and every single time, when they think that they can bait someone a million times over, when they think that they're never going to get fair/bair'd and die at a mid-low%, and when they think that the Zelda won't know her **** but the Wolf will.

TheWildcard · Oct 10, 2008

Successor of Raphael said:
I dislike when people think that they can DI Zelda's smash attacks each and every single time, when they think that they can bait someone a million times over, when they think that they're never going to get fair/bair'd and die at a mid-low%, and when they think that the Zelda won't know her **** but the Wolf will.

Yea i agree with you. no one can be PERFECT or have perfect mindgames or reading ability. In smash there is more than just matchups ive seen yoshis beat Mk's before and ive seen Links beat Mk's. perople have tricks they can come out of no where and **** you for a stock or 2. like i said in my earlier post zelda only needs 1 hit to kill you if he/she uses shiek. how long can you go without getting hit? and DI'ing perfectly?

zelda fsmash and usmash > wolf bair and fair (depending on where the wolf comes from)

choknater said:
*shrug* wolf is a space animal, it's destiny for space animals: play perfect, play fast, or be *****

sheik is 90:10 on wolf (i give him that 10 cuz he has a blaster)

if shiek plays perfect, and can read the wolf like a book i can agree with you, but no one plays perfect which means level and mistakes have to taken into play.

any level thats ok or even good for wolf and ok for shiek makes it a 65:35 shiek if it a bad level for wolf 70:30 shiek and if the level is bad for wolf and good for shiek 90:10

its like playing rainbow cruise mk vs IC's or vs snake Mk should always win.

ArcPoint said:
Or Wolf is just a relatively bad character, and all the characters have some sort of gay chaingrab/infinite/free 40-60% on Wolf.

And Omniswell pretty much summed it up in my opinion...

listen to this person.

Wolf gets combo'd by everyone until at least 40% i believe 3/4ths of the cast can wall infinate him, and wolf dies so early.

Lord Yawgmoth · Oct 10, 2008

Omniswell said:
listen to this person.

Listen to them both.

: P I do agree with Omniswell about the matchups. Sheik has an advantage on wolf, and wolf has an advantage on Zelda. Sorry that I just hopped in here, but I've been keeping track of this thread because we are also doing the wolf matchup on the Zelda boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=29 pages 29 to 32.

If anyone wants to share their wisdom there, it would be much appreciated.

(don't mind the last few posts about game and watch <.< )

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 10, 2008

Kay, so Sheik > Wolf > Zelda???

TheWildcard · Oct 10, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
Kay, so Sheik > Wolf > Zelda???

that sums it up a little bit

i wouldnt call wolf a "counter" to zelda but if the person only goes zelda its hard for her imo.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 10, 2008

OK, I'd like to hear some stuff from Zelda players. Most of what I heard comes from Sheik players and it seems pretty obvious that it's either 65:35 or 60:40 (depending on the stage I guess...), except choknater but who cares...

TheWildcard · Oct 10, 2008

choknater for top tier

Match-Up discussion #21: Zelda / Sheik

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