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Match-Up Week #1 : MetaKnight

Blad01

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[This is a character we have already discuted in the "Official Match-up Discussion". But i want to create a thread for more accuracy and simplicity]

Week #1 :
MetaKnight

(Discussion : #2 to #27)


  • Behaviour : A MK is going to try to combo you in the air and finish you with a Suttle Loop most of the time.
  • His scaring moves :
    - B move : You can use Lasers and Reflector to easily beat this scaring Mach Tornado.
    - Down Smash : Be aware of this Smash ! It's very dangerous OoS (Out Of Shield), maybe more than your own D-Smash. Spotdodge it, then grab/down-samsh, or shield it, and follow by a Shine / Ftilt out of shield.
    - Shuttle Loop : Try to anticipate when he's going to do a Shuttle Loop to achieve you and AirDodge. Also, don't try to edgeguard when MK is below you (below the stage), or he will Shuttle Loop in your face. There is a discussion about who wins the priority when Falco Dairs, though.
  • How to win ?
    - Phantasm is your friend, to go back to stage, and to rack up damages (See "Immediate Airial Phantasm").
    - SHL and SHDL must be perfectly timed (with the Zero Lag Laser) to shoot MK effectively.
    - Chaingrab (to spike if you want :)).
    - Bair seems a great aerial move against a MK
    - U-Smash kills him at 105% + on FD.
    - Predict MK's Spotdodge + DSmash is a key in this match-up.
  • Counterpick :
  • Video example : Sethlon vs Stiltz R1
  • Match-Up (Average) : 45/55.
Feel free to add new informations to this match-up. :)
 

M@v

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Chaingrab is your best friend here. Falco is the only one that got a CG on MK >:D.
Dont risk too much, play very safe. Spam away, and just be cautious about your moves, because MK can punish you hard offstage, especially since recovery is your weakness.
 

sandwhale

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too lazy to post anything constructive so i'll just wait for someone to post something smart, quote it, and then write "this ^"
 

8AngeL8

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Spam lasers at every possible opportunity, shield grab like it's going out of style, and gatling combo him when he gets lag after his B-moves. Upkick OOS and bair are okay killing moves against him, but unfortunately the best option. One of the most useful things I ever learned was that Falco's nair will cancel the glide attack after shuttle loop. If MK uses shuttle loop, follow him up. He can either take a hit or use the attack and end up in fall special, at which point you get a free hit, anyway.
 

Hype

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I heard that MK can break out of the CG after 2 throws by DIing away and using Uair. His Uair comes out of Frame two. If this infact does work its difficult, I was trying it against my friends falco and it must take frame perferction.
 

Blad01

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Bumped for re-discussion !

MetaKnight being the best character in the game, we NEED to discuss in depth this match-up.

I will begin with some informations :
  • Dair clashes with MK's Up B. That means you can spike him if you anticipate him.
  • Boost Smash kills him at 109% if fresh.
  • Our Reflector beats his ground options ?
 

pure_awesome

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Using reflector on the ground is a bad idea. MK is fast enough that he can just take a reflector to the face and still punish with a running grab, dash attack, whorenado, sliding dsmash, what have you. And if he actually shields the reflector, it's an even worse situation.
 

Gmoney_

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I might give some info as well. Spam lasers when he is far, I think most to anyone knows this. Keep your distance from him. At earlier % don't try for the CG that badly, he'll keep himself spaced where he can easily damage you and you don't. Watch ou for his recovery, you can try use Dair for it.

I don't know this for sure, but I think Nair clashes with his glide attack so you could try this. If you're close, you can easily Dsmash him OoS if he tries to Dsmash you. Be quick though, if you mess up, you'll get one. Try always to recover with phantasm, but be aware for his nado and Nair.

This could get you an early kill but is risky. When you CG > spike him off stage, try follow up with footstool and be rdy to edge hog. Most to all MKs won't dodge or Shuttle Loop if they're that low so it could work.

Hope this info kinda helps

~Gmoney
 

OverLade

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The hardest part of this matchup is killing MK, and doing it before he can raise your damage.

Falco has no good approaches on MK. MK's Nair OOS and Up B OOS shut down any SHdairs/nairs/bairs and his Ftilt shuts down conventional ground approaches.

Side B and lasers are the way to go. Get in dash attacks when possible. Metaknight's sidesteps can be read to kill, but a MK probably wont sidestep much in this matchup. There's no need to at close range. If MK is dair camping or using Glide attack etc try to punish that with a kill move. If he uses nado, running and punishing is sometimes smarter than shooting a laser at it, though if you shoot a laser, he'll usually sideB right after on accident (because ppl mash B for nado and hold side to direct it) and you can punish that.

Eitherway, the frustrating part is getting the kill. Doing the damage is easier.
 

8AngeL8

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DON'T GET GRABBED! If MK can grab you, he can Fthrow and force you off stage, which can easily result in a gimp. Falco gets owned off stage by Falco, so do absolutely everything in your power to stay on it.

While on stage, I've found bair and nair to be pretty good damage builders against MK's who like to play an aerial game. Unfortunately, Bair is one of your most reliable kill moves. If you've been using it, make sure to play a great laser game to get your bair back to normal.

Nair clanks with the glide attack after shuttle loop, it's actually pretty useful up high, since it'll clank and MK will be in his fall, while you won't and can reach the ground first, then punish with whatever you want.
 

Teran

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One thing I always find myself doing against MK is limiting my IAP use a lot. MK can punish you badly for it if it becomes predictable or you screw up the spacing. I'm saying it shouldn't be used but his plethora of lightning quick attacks will make you suffer for it.

Whatever you do, don't try and force the grab at all, as MKs will have in mind that the CG is your best friend for adding precious % points. Be cautious and campy with lasers, and just hope that MK provides an opening for a grab or gatling combo or whatever form of punishment that suits the situation. Since MK is the one that has to chase Falco down, Falco is in a better position to set the pace of the match with his excellent projectile.

Oh and don't get knocked off stage, easier said than done but seriously, this is MK, arguably the best at gimping in the game, against Falco, who isn't known for his brilliant recovery, so there's no reason why you shouldn't expect him to take off a stock at even low percents when he knocks you offstage.
 

towelie892

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Nair clanks with the glide attack after shuttle loop, it's actually pretty useful up high, since it'll clank and MK will be in his fall, while you won't and can reach the ground first, then punish with whatever you want.
Never thought of that before...good idea, I'll have to try it sometime.

I'm afraid I know very little about fighting Meta Knights (my only MK-playing friend is decent at best), so I'll just agree with everything posted so far:laugh:
 

Denzi

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I heard that MK can break out of the CG after 2 throws by DIing away and using Uair. His Uair comes out of Frame two. If this infact does work its difficult, I was trying it against my friends falco and it must take frame perferction.
I don't think it's possible. I was testing it with my friend and was never able to do it. I'd think that even if he got the Uair out, you should still be able to hold on to him w/ Grab Armor.
I'm afraid I know very little about fighting Meta Knights (my only MK-playing friend is decent at best), so I'll just agree with everything posted so far:laugh:
^Same goes for me. And I agree with everything posted so far :laugh:

As far as recovery goes, I'd think that vertically your best chance of getting back is getting lucky and landing either a rising Dair or a Footstool jump, both of which put good distance b/t you and MK. Horizontally, your best bet is to just hope the MK screws up and attacks you during your invincibility frames of side B (which apparently do exist). If he's on the edge of the stage, you could throw him off with a canceled Phantasm and grab the ledge.
 

8AngeL8

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MK can't break out of the chaingrab if you do it perfectly with the walking one. I don't know for sure if you're doing the dash in between grabs, but if you walk and get it perfect he takes the whole thing.
 

Conviction

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I think SHL is better than SHDL in this match-up because you want to keep alot of mobility in this match-up. SHDL is should only be used to stop Glide approaches. But so far every post seems useful
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I think MK has a 60:40 matchup, and his aerial/gimping prowess can mess up Falco big time. MK's aerials come out so fast and Bair and Fair do good damage. Dair is a great move for MK when you are offstage, as it can send you off at weird angles and kill you early. His Ftilt is also really good, and he can mindgame you with it by deciding to cancel it early sometimes. Use Laser and CG for damage, and keep your kill moves fresh, because outright killing him (or potentially spiking him) are really the only ways to kill MK with any character because his recovery is so good.

Reflector is good here because it outranges I think all of his ground moves and can trip him and set up for a gatling combo.

MK can gimp you very easily, so try your best to STAY ON STAGE!. that's vital in this matchup as he could most likely gimp you from 0 if you make the mistake of getting offstage early.

MK can get quick kills with his gimps, as well as his DSmash and Up-B near the edge. Both characters here are light, so you can kill him off the top fairly easily as well with Usmash.


Corneria can be a pretty good CP, because the ceiling is low and MK doesn't have any good upwards kill moves. If you do pick this as your CP, stay away from under the fin, where he can kill you really early off the side, and he has a Dtilt infinite against the fin as well. Don't let him lure you over there and stay on the other side of the stage.

Of course if Japes isn't banned in your area, and the MK doesn't ban it, play him there.


Ban Luigi's Mansion or RC against MK, whichever you are less comfortable on in general. Probably ban Luigi's since your lasers get blocked by pillars. But which stage to ban depends more on personal preference here.
 

Teran

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Reflector is good here because it outranges I think all of his ground moves and can trip him and set up for a gatling combo.
I disagree. Don't take it personally, I just think the reflector has far too much cooldown time for it to be useful even if it connects against MK. If he shields or you mistime it, expect a fair bit of punishment.


Corneria can be a pretty good CP, because the ceiling is low and MK doesn't have any good upwards kill moves. If you do pick this as your CP, stay away from under the fin, where he can kill you really early off the side, and he has a Dtilt infinite against the fin as well. Don't let him lure you over there and stay on the other side of the stage.
You're a brave soul, I really find MK beastly on Corneria, even with the low ceiling.

Ban Luigi's Mansion or RC against MK, whichever you are less comfortable on in general. Probably ban Luigi's since your lasers get blocked by pillars. But which stage to ban depends more on personal preference here.
There has been a neat laserlock trick discovered on Luigi's and overall there's been a fair bit of strategy development on that stage that has made Luigi's not nearly as bad as we once thought. I'd ban RC.

Just my opinion :)
 

XxBlackxX

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Meta Knight can suck it. <_<

MK + Ledgestall = Win
not really...we've discussed falco options when dealing with planking in another thread. im pretty sure it was called the metaknight forum.

and on the topic of stages, ban RC definitely, though mansion is still a bad stage, RC is worse imo. i really wouldn't take it to corneria either.

stages i would chose are: FD, japes
neutrals i wouldn't chose: battlefield, yoshi's island
stages i wouldn't chose: frigate orpheon, norfair
 

sMexy-Blu

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not really...we've discussed falco options when dealing with planking in another thread. im pretty sure it was called the metaknight forum.

and on the topic of stages, ban RC definitely, though mansion is still a bad stage, RC is worse imo. i really wouldn't take it to corneria either.

stages i would chose are: FD, japes
neutrals i wouldn't chose: battlefield, yoshi's island
stages i wouldn't chose: frigate orpheon, norfair
One day I was playing online w/ a friend Wi.fi and he couterpicked me w/ RC and worst of all he was MK ... He was losing pretty badly and then he started running and running... Then I couldn't take it anymore and I just suicided, that bish. :(
 

Teran

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One day I was playing online w/ a friend Wi.fi and he couterpicked me w/ RC and worst of all he was MK ... He was losing pretty badly and then he started running and running... Then I couldn't take it anymore and I just suicided, that bish. :(
Huh?

10confusedfalcos
 

Vlade

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Difficulty: 50:50

What to expect:

  • Tornado. This infamous move is just a wall of priority dealing a lot of damage if all hits connect. However, falco has ways to deal with this beast, and I'll go through that later.
  • Off-stage combat. Seriously, this is why falco doesn't have the advantage against MK. Mk has infinite options against you to break your phantasm and kill you at very low %'s if you are sent off-stage.
  • Shuttle Loop will be his main killing move, not to mention a great gimp move.
  • Dsmash. MK's spam the living daylights out of this move. It's insanely fast, I think it comes out on frame 5. It also hits both sides, and is more powerful behind him so don't roll into this move. This will also kill near the edge, or at least send you off-stage for edgeguarding which means you will most likely lose a stock anyway if the MK is good at gimping.
  • MK will rack up damage very quickly, especially in the air with his quick moves like dair and uair. MK's throws will also set you up for some combos, particularly his dthrow.
  • Planking. This has already been discussed in a previous thread.

The Strategy:

MK is always on the approach, especially against falco. His favourite approaches are the fair and tornado. I'll go through tornado strategies in the next section. But anyway against the fair you have to laser him before he connects, or shield the whole thing. Smart/Skilled MK's DI away from you after they fair if they connect with your shield, so that eliminates your chances of chaingrabbing. But if they do that, IAP out of shield since the initial 'jump' cancels the shielddrop lag. Then proceed with lasers to force a grab opportunity. Another approach that MK's might use is the dair. Same rules apply here. Shield it, then IAP. Just don't get too predictable with the IAP since MK will catch on and hit you out of it.

Anyway against the tornado the best way to stop it is SHDL. Shine can also stop it, although MK is very fast and will grab you before you catch your reflector. However, if you don't have enough time and end up having to shield the whole thing, make sure you angle the shield upwards and punish afterwards. And if all this fails, and you end up getting caught in the tornado, Tap DI and SDI up and out of it, and either punish with dair through the middle of the tornado if possible, or just punish MK when he finished the move altogether. Don't try phantasming into the tornado, because you can't.

If MK gets a grab on you, and you see him stamping his tiny feet on your head with the dthrow, DI away from him so you don't get hit by the fair that is most likely coming up and if applicable, tech roll. If you're close to the stage then MK will use a throw that will send you off-stage for edgeguarding.

Of course falco has the chaingrab which will bring MK down to 45%, followed up by a dair that won't kill or gattling combo. Personally I'd rather dair them into the ground and then techchase a gattling combo or another grab, or whatever I feel like. This is one of the main reasons why falco goes even with MK, because without it falco has a difficult time racking up enough damage in sufficient time.

MK will most likely intercept your phantasm off-stage, quite often with a tornado, nair or dair. Just get to the ledge as quickly as possible so that MK doesn't get a chance to gimp. Also make sure that you won't get edgehoggedwhen you phantasm. If you do manage to grab the ledge, don't phantasm if MK is still on the stage. He will just throw out his tornado and intercept. Double lasers are probably your best bet, or just simply get up/get-up attack/roll depending on their position and whether or not MK is shielding. If you end up having to use the firebird, you're most likely screwed.

Falco has difficulty dealing with planking, and this is the thread where it was discussed: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208450
This is why falco does not have the advantage and the overall match-up is even, otherwise he would.

Remember that MK's also love to spam Dsmash, since it's just such a fast and powerful move which can kill or send off-stage (as mentioned earlier). If he dsmashes and you spotdodge or shield, expect another one since it's so fast. Your best bet is to jump out of shield and dair while MK is dsmashing I think.

Killing MK can be a pain, especially since he is so fast. The best killer here is usmash, since it kills at a little under 110%, and is your fastest killing move. MK is light, but speedy. He has trouble killing as well, but that excludes gimps offstage so he doesn't really need that killing power (even though he has fsmash which has a very laggy start-up compared to all his other moves). MK also kills with shuttle loop which is very fast and has invincibility frames, which usually kills if used off-stage. Basically falco's best chance is to create the opening with lasers and usmash, or techchase/'mindgame' a fsmash.


STAGES

Counterpicks:

  • Final Destination - This is your best neutral stage, and funnily enough some MK's I verse don't ban this.
  • Jungle Japes - On this stage we kill quicker than MK can, and on this stage he can't plank either because of the klaptraps.

Ban These Stages!

  • Delfino Plaza/Halberd - Very difficult to play on this stage as falco against MK, since MK will just attack from underneath the main platform.
  • Luigi's Mansion - Laser game is hindered. 'Nuff Said.
  • Norfair - A terrible falco stage overall.
  • Rainbow Cruise - Personally I actually don't mind playing on this stage against MK, although I know some falco players that despise it.
  • Yoshi's Island - avoid this neutral stage for the first match if possible, although it isn't TOO bad.
  • Lylat Cruise - screws recovery etc etc etc.
  • A fair number of other stages - Basically MK is most likely to win in his counterpick.

For the first match try and get Final Destination or Smashville, since those are your best bets of winning the whole set. If you don't win, then you're going to have a very hard time in the last match (assuming you win on final destination/jungle japes).
 

M@v

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Mk is bad news for the spacies in general. Falco does the best of the 3 though. CG, and Spam more lasers than the number of hamburgers Mcdonalds sells every day, and shieldgrab. DONT FORCE the CG. If you can get it, great. But you can get crushed for trying to get it. Offstage=death for falco, and never chase after mk.

Quick question: What are Falco's best options against a planking MK again?
 

Denzi

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Mk is bad news for the spacies in general. Falco does the best of the 3 though. CG, and Spam more lasers than the number of hamburgers Mcdonalds sells every day, and shieldgrab. DONT FORCE the CG. If you can get it, great. But you can get crushed for trying to get it. Offstage=death for falco, and never chase after mk.

Quick question: What are Falco's best options against a planking MK again?
Why bring this back? We know all this stuff.

I believe Falco's best option is to try and Dair him. there was a lot of discussion in this thread IIRC:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208450

(It starts around page 4)
 

Tommy_G

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Guess what? If you see MK falling to the ground or just trying to go above your laser spam, shdl into dash attack canceled up smash connects about 95% of the time(random DI or something, probably just me mistiming it). The lasers pull him down and the up smash is out when he touches the floor, forcing him to get hit before his shield or anything comes up. There's your kill move.
 

Zorai

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too lazy to post anything constructive so i'll just wait for someone to post something smart, quote it, and then write "this ^"
Not only would this post itself be spam, but "this^" is also considered spam.
________________

As a counterpick, I would pick Japes, Pokemon Stadium 1, or Yoshi's Island.
 
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