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Proactive Vs. Reactive Diddy - Defining the Smart Diddy Kong

Vyse

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I'm at a cross roads I think.

I've been over this once before:
The danger's of Auto-Pilot.

How do we deal with the temptation of auto-mode? Usually we tell the budding Diddy Kong to play a 'Smart Diddy' but have we ever stopped to really define what 'Smart Diddy' refers to?

We usually define the 'Smart Diddy Kong' by what it is not.

Alot of the time I'm like 'whee, my bananas are like, hitting you and stuff, combo combo combo, I win!' and half the time I'm not really thinking about it as much as I should.
Smart Diddy's do not blindly throw bananas until one hits and then head into auto-combo mode.

So what is a 'Smart Diddy'?

I think when we define a 'Smart Diddy' we refer to players that play either Reactively or Proactively:

So then arises the issues of 'Reactive' and 'Proactive' play.

As I understand it, reactive play is reading the opponent, and reacting to put yourself into advantageous positions. It is almost the complete opposite of Diddy's trademark pressure play. However, it is not without merit, as you'll understand that being able to react in such a way as to play a very safe game will be beneficial, provided that you are able to outplay the opponent.

I can play like this with characters like Marth, who is exceptionally good when played with a 'reactive' play style.

However, I believe that the best kind of Diddy Kong (And best kind of player) will play 'Proactively'. The proactive player will seek to create these advantageous situations themselves, and these types of players, are those like Azen and M2K.

Proactive Diddy's will use their bananas, amongst other things, to force the opponent into a position that is good for you and bad for them. And, naturally, we all try to play like this. All the Diddy's here play like this (I think).

...

'Smart banana play is good banana play, don't just glide toss those bananas because you can, and hope for the best'

But then, I'm sure alot of you will say that you knew this already. I just really felt like posting my own conclusions somewhere after that last meet. I'm always the first to say 'I might be wrong, and I probably am' so if you have a different opinion, I want to hear it. My knowledge of reactive and proactive play are courtesy of Mookie's 'Playing to Learn' thread.
The crossroads I spoke of before is deciding between these two playstyles.
Going by the reccomendation I put forth in the text I quoted, it would seem that 'Pro-active play' is the better kind of play.

And it is, really. In theory, it's the best kind of Diddy. Heck, it's the best kind of ANYTHING. But being a 'reactive' player can be beneficial in some ways too.

Being reactive, means dancing around with Diddy Kong, keeping your self well spaced, waiting for that one little mistake. Waiting for the opponent to throw out a laggy attack, instead of a quick one, waiting for them to freeze up and shield, anything.

Once they make this mistake, it also refers to your ability to capitalize on it. Leading in with a Glide Tossed Banana or pressuring that shield to get that grab on their shield.


I keep finding myself doing this when I need to turn the tide of a match around. It's worked several times and won me matches I would have lost if I didn't drastically change up my play style.

Despite this. Proactive players will always be superior. Creating the situations which lead to banana combo's, rather than waiting for them to appear.

After all this, I've yet to answer the question outright. What is a Smart Diddy? Proactive? Reactive?

I'd wager it's a subtle blend of both of these playstyles. In a way, it's no different to the way we play normally. We are always trying to adhere to Isai's advice 'Don't Get Hit', whilst trying to lay down the banana combos, but that is easier said than done unless you're actively thinking about it.

You have to walk into a match and think to yourself 'Okay, for this match, I will play defensively. I will foxtrot about with a banana in hand and try to bait a laggy attack so I can punish him'. That's an example of a 'reactive' mindset.

In the end, it's something that I know some people out there will read and will pass it off as information they already know. It is really, at higher levels of play, players will do this instinctively anyway. Higher level players are able to engineer and force the situations that lead into banana combos, rather than wait for them to happen. By laying traps with the bananas, creating positional advantage through strategic banana placement, and other methods of harassment and bullying with various poking attacks like the F & D-tilts.

So perhaps, to define the 'Smart Diddy' we can refer to it as 'A Diddy Kong that will engineer situations using the various tools at his/her disposal to force mistakes from the opponent, creating opportunities to react to their mistakes with offensive, combo orientated play'
 

ADHD

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If you can reach a level where you're top notch and you're glide tossing like crazy and dribbling and using all crazy pressure mindgames but you are still thinking about what you're doing you can really dominate people who aren't ready for it, even if they're alot more skilled than you. I mean, the first stock you can go "reactive" and then once you know your opponent a little bit after go beserk but just watch what you're doing and dont keep it predictable
 

chimpact

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This is what separates normal diddy players like me from Ninjalink and Nanerz. I do capitalize on my opponent's mistakes, but I don't know how to make my opponent make mistakes. I know it will come to me eventually, but at the moment I just can't.
 

Shurk

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Sep 17, 2008
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This is what separates normal diddy players like me from Ninjalink and Nanerz. I do capitalize on my opponent's mistakes, but I don't know how to make my opponent make mistakes. I know it will come to me eventually, but at the moment I just can't.
Agreed, I feel the same way.
Perhaps someone should put up a thread detailing exactly how one should go about creating mistakes...
 

Semmick

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Jun 19, 2008
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Mukilteo, WA
I feel that Proactive Diddy's are the smart Diddy's. Isai's advice is used well here "Don't get hit". Waiting for the opponent to use a laggy attack and then punishing is smarter than going into the fight head-on. This definitely helps tell whether a Diddy player is good or not. However, being able to switch between the two creates an even smarter Diddy Kong strategy.
 

IDK

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wow this is an AMAZING thread. i was just thinking about how when i play mindlessly i will do much better as someone else. when i think i do SO well. i'm trying to think of what they will do next, how to avoid it, when they will be open, and not getting hit... i almost ALWAYS win. put this in your must reads NOW vyse.
 

theONEjanitor

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the1janitor
i'm not sure if its even really possible be a winning player if you're a reactive Diddy.
Diddy doesn't have the priority, power, or range to play that way. he HAS to create his own advantages.
 

Vyse

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Are you sure?

Because if you have a banana in hand, it's entirely possible to hit from long range. Wait for that mistake, first banana toss begins a combo/naner lock.

Although, perhaps you're right.
 

Le_THieN

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Are you sure?

Because if you have a banana in hand, it's entirely possible to hit from long range. Wait for that mistake, first banana toss begins a combo/naner lock.

Although, perhaps you're right.
I would disagree with the prospect that being reactive doesn't yield success, and that having a banana in your hand at all times pretty much solves that problem. I have spent the last several weeks re-immersing myself into the Meta Knight match-up (mostly by playing tons of MKs in HOBO 11 last week as well as facing off against the best MK mains in Texas two weekends in a row), and I have found that my favorite and most effective setups usually congeal after baiting specific moves.

For clarification's sake, I'm interpreting "reactive" as a synonym for being "defensive"; which when it comes to playing against Meta Knight, you sort of have to in many situations. If you approach the match by trying to compete with MK in the arena of aggression, you will lose. You will spend the majority of your match licking your wounds and needlessly retreating to reset your spacing, while you ought to be decisively punishing his advances with glide-tossing and minimizing the damage you take. Contrary to what many people might have you believe, there are a couple of crucial points of cool-down MK has that can be wholly taken advantage of if you take the time to draw them out and block accordingly.

Of course, it can be argued that there exists proactive properties in being calculatingly reactive, and then it just devolves into an argument over semantics after that. Honestly, the best-case scenario for all players is to strike an equilibrium with both measured defense and aggression, and you will theoretically always be several steps ahead of everyone you ever face.
 

AntiPyroShyGuy

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Messages
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This is what separates normal diddy players like me from Ninjalink and Nanerz. I do capitalize on my opponent's mistakes, but I don't know how to make my opponent make mistakes. I know it will come to me eventually, but at the moment I just can't.
I hate you.
 

Deez.

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
1,468
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Sleepin on the clouds.
I'm at a cross roads I think.

I've been over this once before:
The danger's of Auto-Pilot.

How do we deal with the temptation of auto-mode? Usually we tell the budding Diddy Kong to play a 'Smart Diddy' but have we ever stopped to really define what 'Smart Diddy' refers to?

We usually define the 'Smart Diddy Kong' by what it is not.



Smart Diddy's do not blindly throw bananas until one hits and then head into auto-combo mode.

So what is a 'Smart Diddy'?

I think when we define a 'Smart Diddy' we refer to players that play either Reactively or Proactively:



The crossroads I spoke of before is deciding between these two playstyles.
Going by the reccomendation I put forth in the text I quoted, it would seem that 'Pro-active play' is the better kind of play.

And it is, really. In theory, it's the best kind of Diddy. Heck, it's the best kind of ANYTHING. But being a 'reactive' player can be beneficial in some ways too.

Being reactive, means dancing around with Diddy Kong, keeping your self well spaced, waiting for that one little mistake. Waiting for the opponent to throw out a laggy attack, instead of a quick one, waiting for them to freeze up and shield, anything.

Once they make this mistake, it also refers to your ability to capitalize on it. Leading in with a Glide Tossed Banana or pressuring that shield to get that grab on their shield.


I keep finding myself doing this when I need to turn the tide of a match around. It's worked several times and won me matches I would have lost if I didn't drastically change up my play style.

Despite this. Proactive players will always be superior. Creating the situations which lead to banana combo's, rather than waiting for them to appear.

After all this, I've yet to answer the question outright. What is a Smart Diddy? Proactive? Reactive?

I'd wager it's a subtle blend of both of these playstyles. In a way, it's no different to the way we play normally. We are always trying to adhere to Isai's advice 'Don't Get Hit', whilst trying to lay down the banana combos, but that is easier said than done unless you're actively thinking about it.

You have to walk into a match and think to yourself 'Okay, for this match, I will play defensively. I will foxtrot about with a banana in hand and try to bait a laggy attack so I can punish him'. That's an example of a 'reactive' mindset.

In the end, it's something that I know some people out there will read and will pass it off as information they already know. It is really, at higher levels of play, players will do this instinctively anyway. Higher level players are able to engineer and force the situations that lead into banana combos, rather than wait for them to happen. By laying traps with the bananas, creating positional advantage through strategic banana placement, and other methods of harassment and bullying with various poking attacks like the F & D-tilts.

So perhaps, to define the 'Smart Diddy' we can refer to it as 'A Diddy Kong that will engineer situations using the various tools at his/her disposal to force mistakes from the opponent, creating opportunities to react to their mistakes with offensive, combo orientated play'
Vyse i know you prolly get this all the time. but this information helped me out TONS! like seriously i went from Auto-Pilot Diddy to Reactive Diddy in a matter of a day. so im still deciding of which to use against diff chars. but your right there is no real definition of a "smart diddy" just knowin where the opponent makes mistakes or when there are good openings for you to attack on. i will now during game change my playing style to conufse the opponent with many of diddy trix. Thanks alot bro
 

ComboTurtle

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vyse, are u coming to dont come? i want some diddy dittos, just picked him up but hes coming along nicely, gonna see how i go with him at the tourney on the weekend :)
 

Vyse

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Yeah, I'm trying to sort out tickets for all of the QLDers.
We should form a Diddy Crew for the Brawl Crews. That'd be so epic.

Also, we need a Foxy crew for Melee as well <3
 

ComboTurtle

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Feb 7, 2007
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dont know anyone else that plays diddy in nsw, not sure about melbourne, im sure there'd have to be a couple of players that play him.

as for fox in melee, i like playing marth, captain falcon or mario better but i'd be in on that i suppose but my fox is pretty crap i just run around double lasering and waveshining without really accomploshing too much.
 

Vyse

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X.X
I must go back into the hyperbolic time chamber for more Melee Tech Skill training. My fox is more proficient now than it has ever been. But it's still incredibly average lol.

Speaking of sparkles, this one time, DJ Cat and I were doing a Falcon ditto and after doing a Knee => Taunt, He paused it in the middle of the taunt, and Falcon had this shine around his knee. We laughed so hard.




I like how I've derailed my own thread.
 

seirdo

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Aug 31, 2008
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5
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Honolulu, Hawaii
Perhaps this is common sense, but it hasn't been mentioned that you can help create ideal situations without having to attack full scale. As an example, you could pressure your enemy into producing high-lag attacks by frustrating your opponents with peanuts, simple hit-and-run, or even the classic taunt.

Just trying to promote this topic a bit further...
 

Dojo

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Feb 7, 2007
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Time Chamber, Texas
If you can reach a level where you're top notch and you're glide tossing like crazy and dribbling and using all crazy pressure mindgames but you are still thinking about what you're doing you can really dominate people who aren't ready for it, even if they're alot more skilled than you. I mean, the first stock you can go "reactive" and then once you know your opponent a little bit after go beserk but just watch what you're doing and dont keep it predictable
This is how I think about it. It's how I feel most of my success from MK has come about. I try to overwhelm my opponents by playing hard and aggressive but continuing to play smart and think about every move consistently.

I've been playing on auto-pilot alot.
Recently over the past few days though, I've slowed myself down. Trying to think of the best situations. I want to be able to do that while playing the fastest game possible going crazy on my opponent and not giving them a chance to think.

MK and Diddy are like a taste of melee players to me. They need to be played fast and aggressive. Doing that and being smart provides a bit of a challenge though.
 

ADHD

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This is how I think about it. It's how I feel most of my success from MK has come about. I try to overwhelm my opponents by playing hard and aggressive but continuing to play smart and think about every move consistently.

I've been playing on auto-pilot alot.
Recently over the past few days though, I've slowed myself down. Trying to think of the best situations. I want to be able to do that while playing the fastest game possible going crazy on my opponent and not giving them a chance to think.

MK and Diddy are like a taste of melee players to me. They need to be played fast and aggressive. Doing that and being smart provides a bit of a challenge though.
Diddy isn't like metaknight, you have to stay stationary in some matchups sadly...
 

Count

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Lately I've taken a small step backwards in order to hopefully take an eventual leap forwards. I've really been thinking out what I do rather than playing the 'ZOMG H4X' diddy that can tend to get predictable. So often I find myself not doing as well, but as I play more this way and get up to speed WITH the thought out play that I am trying to do now, I think it will be better for the future.
 

Dojo

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Diddy isn't like metaknight, you have to stay stationary in some matchups sadly...
MK does as well....
You can't be all out aggressive all the time. (ie. vs campy snakes.)
Patience is a virtue and has to be used with ALL characters, but I feel Diddy has the potential to be a character that can be used in a way similar that MK is. Or the way I use him.
 

DUB

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Agreed, I feel the same way.
Perhaps someone should put up a thread detailing exactly how one should go about creating mistakes...
Shurk has a point. While I'm sure playing Diddy pro-actively is more advantageous, a few examples/set-ups would be ideal.


Lately, I've been playing a mostly re-active Diddy. On occasions where i can really visualize what is going to happen, I play pro-actively. I'd like to think the best Diddy is played with a combination of both. Luring the opponent into a trap, and once the naner connects during your pro-active play, you go into reactive and do what you know works. Then when your momentum has slowed, go back into pro-active mode. I'm still learning Diddy, i read some guide ( might of been the one vyse was talking of in the OP that says I am currently on a plateau where my technical may not improve much, it's more of the HOW TO PLAY and read your opponent aspect.
 

Masterchef1123

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Dec 13, 2009
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I ain't tellin' u
?-? Reading this I feel like this is nothing cooperated to brawl what so ever.
I seriously don't know what to do.
For one I asked my friend about Diddy Kong he said it was hard to explain the strategy of throwing banana peels he said I have to use a Game Cube control well I use a Game cube controller now thanks to him, but I still have no Idea what so ever on how to use diddy kong. I'd say I have no idea what I'm doing after reading this thread
half these post I've read make no sense
Auto Mode?
Glide Tossing?

What the heck are these things and how do I do them ?_?
Help needed.
SEND ME A LINK TO A THREAD
OR SEND ME A POST EXPLAINING THIS
Please
 
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