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Weekly Character Discussion: Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
Mew2King
King of the Mews
jab is frame 1, faster than any dodge, although I'm sure many people know that already. RyokoYaksa's ZSS does down smash down smash F smash and says it does the most damage, but since I don't use ZSS really I can't confirm that. When me and Ryoko did team friendlies, I was GW and he was ZSS, he did 3 down smashes into my bucket and it's just barely an INSTANT 0% kill. GW + ZSS is an amazing team, especially on a campy stage like Corneria or something.
3 ZSS Dsmashes into the Bucket is more than powerful enough to OHKO in any situation assuming it's fresh. The only reason they failed to OHKO in the games we played was because it was like the 3rd full Bucket in a row.
Dsmash -> Dsmash -> Fsmash is good not simply for the damage it does in the timeframe you have, but also because that string is least prone to failing to hit them away when you don't have enough % to make a guaranteed KO with Bair or Forward+B. Otherwise, her Fsmash is the most deceptively useless attack in the game.
Dsmash -> Dsmash -> Fsmash is good not simply for the damage it does in the timeframe you have, but also because that string is least prone to failing to hit them away when you don't have enough % to make a guaranteed KO with Bair or Forward+B. Otherwise, her Fsmash is the most deceptively useless attack in the game.
Her fsmash is confusing because it's the only fsmash I've seen with significant range behind.
Pshh, I'm not wasting my time writing an essay on a garbage character.
Though I might write an essay on her sexiness though. Maybe.
Though I might write an essay on her sexiness though. Maybe.
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
game and watch bible precursors this lawl. comic was too good
(I edited the above image for censor reasons >_>)
Zero Suit Samus is a character that has some amazing strengths that I feel would otherwise be qualities of a top tier character, if not for her flaws. Her Forward+B is an incredible attack, a great recovery, a solid air game, unorthodox combos allowed by her stunning Down Smash and Neutral B, and starts off each game with 3 strong items. She is however, neutered to averageness by some glaring flaws. Her out of shield game is probably one of the worst in the game, her grab is VERY punishable (as mentioned in this week's hint), and her best approach is also her main kill move - a quality that wouldn't be bad if it weren't for Brawl's beefed up stale moves system.
ZSS's Forward+B is simply amazing. Great range, great power, finishes quickly, can be used in the air, and can even be B-sticked very well (although I tend to not use B-sticking with her as I prefer quick D-smashes). I've noticed it seems to apply incredible amounts of pressure against people holding their shields up, to a point where its combination of quick speed and power can allow me to sometimes pressure an opponent into letting me shield stab them with it. However, its utility as both an approach and kill move is limited by the fact that it's probably her best approach. Aside from her Neutral B, and falling bairs (which, against shields, should be followed by immediately running the hell away), her Forward+B is probably her only approach. With the new stale moves system, this hurts in the sense it limits the power available on arguably her best kill move. Although she can still get kills with her bair, fair, and uair (if you hit your opponent with it when they're high enough), limiting her Forward+B's killing potential hurts a lot.
I've seen loads of people underestimate her recovery (although a large majority of said people were people I talked to around the release of Brawl), when it's actually quite good. Her Down+B doubles as an additional midair jump, and her up+B can be combined with her normal midair jump to get a decent boost in height. Although she is a tether character, her tether recovery is actually decent in how she can actually follow up after missing a recovery due to edgehogging...and with her two tethers, Forward+B and Up+B, combined with their respective properties, incredible strength and the ability to spike, your opponent will have to make precise edgehogging decisions in order to take advantage of her tether, or face getting killed themselves. When all else fails, she can even use her Down+B's additional kick (although with how long the attack stays out, throwing it out carelessly when recovering is more or less suicide) to spike an edgehogging, or even an off-stage edgeguarding opponent.
I absolutely love her air game, and I really only like two of her 5 air A attacks, her bair and uair. Her fair is pretty good if it weren't for how difficult it is to land the second hit with that first hit being DI-able. Her nair has decent range but is painfully average (and, a strange tidbit, is completely unaffected by stale moves). Her air game is also supplemented by her aforementioned forward+B. Unfortunately, her great air options are somewhat hindered by a somewhat large short hop, but not nearly hindered enough to where they're not great, viable attacks. An opponent above ZSS, especially if they're on platforms, are very vulnerable to ZSS's great air game.
She has the ability to freeze/stun opponents with her down-smash and neutral B, which I find to be incredibly useful. Although the stun time on an uncharged neutral B is miniscule, it usually leaves leaves just enough time to connect with a dash attack, which can usually be followed up with an up-tilt, which, like mentioned above, puts the opponent into a tough position. Her down smash, on the other hand, has plenty of stun time, enough to even throw out another down smash before making a different attack. It can even chain Foxes up to 120ish% or so. It is a bit awkward to connect with, however.
How you use the armor pieces depends heavily on the matchup, usually varying on whether or not the opponent's attack arsenal includes a reflector. Against a reflector character, I'll usually mix up Forward+Bs in an attempt to punish them for carelessly throwing their reflector out to block incoming armor pieces. Otherwise I'll go crazy with the armor pieces, glide tossing up, down, or forward, each with their own uses. Down thrown pieces act as temporary hitboxes that can be used as stage control, as well as protecting your other armor pieces from being picked up. Up thrown pieces act similarly but are primarily used to come in at a later time, and the long time spent in the air prolong the life of those armor pieces. Forward thrown pieces are a standard, great approach. The utilitiy, strength, and speed of the pieces can usually lead to the first stock being entirely decided by armor pieces.
Her grab is well below average, especially when you miss with it. She just sits there for awhile, doing nothing, BEGGING to be hit by anything. It also happens to have a Roy Zone, of sorts. When she does a running grab, the part of her whip closest to her won't seem to grab an enemy, which is never a good thing with that lag. As for her throws themselves, they're all pretty average. Her forward throw can CG, and her down throw has some follow ups (but I can never seem to connect with them when it gets DIed away), but the other two (although the back throw can be used to direct an opponent off the stage) are nearly useless.
Her out of shield game is horrendous. Aside from a low f-tilt, which can trip an opponent, or a quick d-tilt, she can't really punish anyone for attacking her shield. Every option she has out of shield will generally only be used to get the opponent away from her long enough so she can run away and start Forward+Bing again. Her shield grab is slow and unreliable, but its long range can be an asset in punishing an opponent. A risky asset, but an asset nonetheless.
In summary, I think she's a really fun character, and (in my experience, and from what I've seen, Snakeee's as well), has strong shots at placing very well in tournaments. Whether or not she is major tournament winning material remains to be seen, but I honestly feel she's probably low high tier.
Zero Suit Samus is a character that has some amazing strengths that I feel would otherwise be qualities of a top tier character, if not for her flaws. Her Forward+B is an incredible attack, a great recovery, a solid air game, unorthodox combos allowed by her stunning Down Smash and Neutral B, and starts off each game with 3 strong items. She is however, neutered to averageness by some glaring flaws. Her out of shield game is probably one of the worst in the game, her grab is VERY punishable (as mentioned in this week's hint), and her best approach is also her main kill move - a quality that wouldn't be bad if it weren't for Brawl's beefed up stale moves system.
ZSS's Forward+B is simply amazing. Great range, great power, finishes quickly, can be used in the air, and can even be B-sticked very well (although I tend to not use B-sticking with her as I prefer quick D-smashes). I've noticed it seems to apply incredible amounts of pressure against people holding their shields up, to a point where its combination of quick speed and power can allow me to sometimes pressure an opponent into letting me shield stab them with it. However, its utility as both an approach and kill move is limited by the fact that it's probably her best approach. Aside from her Neutral B, and falling bairs (which, against shields, should be followed by immediately running the hell away), her Forward+B is probably her only approach. With the new stale moves system, this hurts in the sense it limits the power available on arguably her best kill move. Although she can still get kills with her bair, fair, and uair (if you hit your opponent with it when they're high enough), limiting her Forward+B's killing potential hurts a lot.
I've seen loads of people underestimate her recovery (although a large majority of said people were people I talked to around the release of Brawl), when it's actually quite good. Her Down+B doubles as an additional midair jump, and her up+B can be combined with her normal midair jump to get a decent boost in height. Although she is a tether character, her tether recovery is actually decent in how she can actually follow up after missing a recovery due to edgehogging...and with her two tethers, Forward+B and Up+B, combined with their respective properties, incredible strength and the ability to spike, your opponent will have to make precise edgehogging decisions in order to take advantage of her tether, or face getting killed themselves. When all else fails, she can even use her Down+B's additional kick (although with how long the attack stays out, throwing it out carelessly when recovering is more or less suicide) to spike an edgehogging, or even an off-stage edgeguarding opponent.
I absolutely love her air game, and I really only like two of her 5 air A attacks, her bair and uair. Her fair is pretty good if it weren't for how difficult it is to land the second hit with that first hit being DI-able. Her nair has decent range but is painfully average (and, a strange tidbit, is completely unaffected by stale moves). Her air game is also supplemented by her aforementioned forward+B. Unfortunately, her great air options are somewhat hindered by a somewhat large short hop, but not nearly hindered enough to where they're not great, viable attacks. An opponent above ZSS, especially if they're on platforms, are very vulnerable to ZSS's great air game.
She has the ability to freeze/stun opponents with her down-smash and neutral B, which I find to be incredibly useful. Although the stun time on an uncharged neutral B is miniscule, it usually leaves leaves just enough time to connect with a dash attack, which can usually be followed up with an up-tilt, which, like mentioned above, puts the opponent into a tough position. Her down smash, on the other hand, has plenty of stun time, enough to even throw out another down smash before making a different attack. It can even chain Foxes up to 120ish% or so. It is a bit awkward to connect with, however.
How you use the armor pieces depends heavily on the matchup, usually varying on whether or not the opponent's attack arsenal includes a reflector. Against a reflector character, I'll usually mix up Forward+Bs in an attempt to punish them for carelessly throwing their reflector out to block incoming armor pieces. Otherwise I'll go crazy with the armor pieces, glide tossing up, down, or forward, each with their own uses. Down thrown pieces act as temporary hitboxes that can be used as stage control, as well as protecting your other armor pieces from being picked up. Up thrown pieces act similarly but are primarily used to come in at a later time, and the long time spent in the air prolong the life of those armor pieces. Forward thrown pieces are a standard, great approach. The utilitiy, strength, and speed of the pieces can usually lead to the first stock being entirely decided by armor pieces.
Her grab is well below average, especially when you miss with it. She just sits there for awhile, doing nothing, BEGGING to be hit by anything. It also happens to have a Roy Zone, of sorts. When she does a running grab, the part of her whip closest to her won't seem to grab an enemy, which is never a good thing with that lag. As for her throws themselves, they're all pretty average. Her forward throw can CG, and her down throw has some follow ups (but I can never seem to connect with them when it gets DIed away), but the other two (although the back throw can be used to direct an opponent off the stage) are nearly useless.
Her out of shield game is horrendous. Aside from a low f-tilt, which can trip an opponent, or a quick d-tilt, she can't really punish anyone for attacking her shield. Every option she has out of shield will generally only be used to get the opponent away from her long enough so she can run away and start Forward+Bing again. Her shield grab is slow and unreliable, but its long range can be an asset in punishing an opponent. A risky asset, but an asset nonetheless.
In summary, I think she's a really fun character, and (in my experience, and from what I've seen, Snakeee's as well), has strong shots at placing very well in tournaments. Whether or not she is major tournament winning material remains to be seen, but I honestly feel she's probably low high tier.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
I feel the depth of your first post in this thread far exceeds that of your second.
haha apparently zss isn't the most popular character with back room members
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
She has a nice rack!
The only input I can provide is how hard she is to play against in teams. If I am busy fighting someone else, she can jump in from a pretty decent distance and side B me. Because she is so far away I don't even really pay attention and next thing I know I get sauced by it. She is also obviously harder to edgeguard in doubles, so she performs even better because of that.
The only input I can provide is how hard she is to play against in teams. If I am busy fighting someone else, she can jump in from a pretty decent distance and side B me. Because she is so far away I don't even really pay attention and next thing I know I get sauced by it. She is also obviously harder to edgeguard in doubles, so she performs even better because of that.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I really think Zamus' potential is a lot higher than people realize, but I don't think she'll ever become popular simply because she is a shallow character when played to her best. This makes her seem uninteresting >_>
Also, does jab OOS not work well?
Also, does jab OOS not work well?
It's good, quick (1 frame as mentioned earlier), but only works as another, less damaging "get away from me" option.
Her third jab is pretty awful though, a bunch of characters can take the first two jabs and still attack her out of the third =\
edit: Cort said she was the 2nd funnest character to play as
Her third jab is pretty awful though, a bunch of characters can take the first two jabs and still attack her out of the third =\
edit: Cort said she was the 2nd funnest character to play as
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Well, jab canceling is still in.It's good, quick (1 frame as mentioned earlier), but only works as another, less damaging "get away from me" option.
Her third jab is pretty awful though, a bunch of characters can take the first two jabs and still attack her out of the third =\
edit: Cort said she was the 2nd funnest character to play as
Have you tried jab canceling to a tilt or retreating over-b? That might be a good OOS option.
They should be able to shield the forward+B after canceling the jabs (although buying enough time to get a forward B out is what you're aiming for in the first place), and since a tilt is one of her better OOS options...yeah, that'd be a good choice.
Come to think of it, jab->dtilt works really well too.
Maybe I should start jabbing out of shields XD
EDIT: When this thread gets moved to the ZSS board, I'm guessing Snakeee will probably make a lengthy post as well, so to make a request, could you post something about 2v2? I don't like playing as her in doubles very much <_<
Come to think of it, jab->dtilt works really well too.
Maybe I should start jabbing out of shields XD
EDIT: When this thread gets moved to the ZSS board, I'm guessing Snakeee will probably make a lengthy post as well, so to make a request, could you post something about 2v2? I don't like playing as her in doubles very much <_<
I guess neither of us are ZSS masters but I find that she's much easier to fight in teams than in singles. She can't really get into the fray and mix it up with close-combat fighting. She really has to keep both opponents to one side of her or she'll risk taking hits simply for attacking. And she can't trade hits because she is so light.
I like how you state that you don't pay attention to her and then she owns you.
The only way I see her as viable in teams is if you have a partner who's really good at fighting two people at once, or is really good at keeping one of the two opponents off of you.
On the other hand, maybe I'll have to try her out more if she is really that fun. At the very least I'll get to throw items at people.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
I can't figure this character out. although now that I know she has some connection to moses, thanks to dazwa, I think I should be able to go old testament, exodus style, on some people's *****.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- Messages
- 21,181
Synopsis:
ZSS is a character with a horrible and predictable aerial approach, a horrible grab, and very poor OOS options. Despite this, ZSS does very well when she has her opponent in a poor position; ZSS takes a lot of thinking to play, but if you can get your opponent where you want them it all pays off. Her most common kill move, her over-b, is also one of her safer and most commonly used attacking moves. This is bad, as it continually is diminished. The good news is that this attack often puts your opponent in a poor position! If you can capitalize on this, theoretically the over-b should never go stale.
It's also important to note that ZSS recovery, while tether-based, isn't that bad. She can be gimped incredibly easy if her player doesn't know what they are doing, but in the hands of a ZSS veteran she has enough options to continually be one step ahead of the opposition.
Her jab also comes out ridiculously fast. This makes it the best "OMG OMG OMG OMG GO AWAY" move in the world. When in doubt, jab once or twice then run away.
ZSS is a character with a horrible and predictable aerial approach, a horrible grab, and very poor OOS options. Despite this, ZSS does very well when she has her opponent in a poor position; ZSS takes a lot of thinking to play, but if you can get your opponent where you want them it all pays off. Her most common kill move, her over-b, is also one of her safer and most commonly used attacking moves. This is bad, as it continually is diminished. The good news is that this attack often puts your opponent in a poor position! If you can capitalize on this, theoretically the over-b should never go stale.
It's also important to note that ZSS recovery, while tether-based, isn't that bad. She can be gimped incredibly easy if her player doesn't know what they are doing, but in the hands of a ZSS veteran she has enough options to continually be one step ahead of the opposition.
Her jab also comes out ridiculously fast. This makes it the best "OMG OMG OMG OMG GO AWAY" move in the world. When in doubt, jab once or twice then run away.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think ZSS is terrible in teams. you can just choose to ignore her and her attacks are too weak to keep you from doing a 2 vs 1 on her teammate. Once her teammate is gone, ZSS can't fight 2 people by herself and dies at 80%.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
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- 6,924
I like ZSS... but I just can't see why everyone says she has so much potential >_<
Everything after this post is general discussion.
Everything after this post is general discussion.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I'll be making a lengthy post sometime tomorrow as well.
Not even.
In general, this was a very disappointing discussion to read, probably due to the fact that almost none of you know much about ZSS besides Dazwa.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
ZSS isnt THAT bad in teams. But shes not the best either. There are some neat tricks you can do tho like filling up G&Ws bucket really fast with D-smash and stuff. Im pretty inexperienced at team brawling tho havent really done much of it.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Um...ZSS is absolutely S/God-tier in teams. The only characters I'd even consider being better than her are Metaknight and Snake...my opinion right now though is that Metaknight is the only character better in teams. The thing is that no one really uses her well in teams that I know of other than me. One of the only players that may be around my level with ZSS is Dazwa, yet he said that he doesn't play her in teams. So, almost NO ONE has seen a ZSS played in teams at a high level, so you really can't form a real opinion on her yet can you?
Her range and aerial abilities are very broken in teams, and she can easily reach to the other side of the stage with a forward B to hit the opponent that their teammate is fighting. It's EXTREMELY hard to hit ZSS in teams because there are 3 other characters on the screen at once, so she can almost always down B special footstool across the whole stage, and also ledge camp when possible.
A lot of times I am able to hit both opponents in the air once or twice each before hitting the ground.
Also, she can reach opponents that are high in the air before anyone else can and drag them down with Up B
The very few vids I have of myself playing in teams honestly aren't that good. I have one winners finals game (not even a set just a single game lol) that a friend saved on his Wii that I may try to get up. But, hopefully I will have more proof of this soon.
I went on a rant about how she is in teams because that's what I saw most of the discussion as.
She is high tier at least in singles. I'll go on about that tomorrow I guess.
Btw, another thing that bothered me...ZSS has GREAT OOS options, this is another thing that hardly anyone has implemented I guess as well. OOS up air or b-air are so fast that they can deal with just about anything. For instance, she can automatically up air lucario if he hits her shield with his d-air. Or if a DDD b-airs her shield, she can automatically b-air him back. Her shield grab is useful only for attacks with range. Such as she can shield grab Ike's F-air. And jabs out of shield are almost always amazing except against characters with amazing grabs. Against most characters she can restart the jab combo to interrupt a shield grab.
Oh and
"I think ZSS is terrible in teams. you can just choose to ignore her and her attacks are too weak to keep you from doing a 2 vs 1 on her teammate. Once her teammate is gone, ZSS can't fight 2 people by herself and dies at 80%."
LMAO. I feel like doing a 2 vs. 1 MM with you after that one
Her range and aerial abilities are very broken in teams, and she can easily reach to the other side of the stage with a forward B to hit the opponent that their teammate is fighting. It's EXTREMELY hard to hit ZSS in teams because there are 3 other characters on the screen at once, so she can almost always down B special footstool across the whole stage, and also ledge camp when possible.
A lot of times I am able to hit both opponents in the air once or twice each before hitting the ground.
Also, she can reach opponents that are high in the air before anyone else can and drag them down with Up B
The very few vids I have of myself playing in teams honestly aren't that good. I have one winners finals game (not even a set just a single game lol) that a friend saved on his Wii that I may try to get up. But, hopefully I will have more proof of this soon.
I went on a rant about how she is in teams because that's what I saw most of the discussion as.
She is high tier at least in singles. I'll go on about that tomorrow I guess.
Btw, another thing that bothered me...ZSS has GREAT OOS options, this is another thing that hardly anyone has implemented I guess as well. OOS up air or b-air are so fast that they can deal with just about anything. For instance, she can automatically up air lucario if he hits her shield with his d-air. Or if a DDD b-airs her shield, she can automatically b-air him back. Her shield grab is useful only for attacks with range. Such as she can shield grab Ike's F-air. And jabs out of shield are almost always amazing except against characters with amazing grabs. Against most characters she can restart the jab combo to interrupt a shield grab.
Oh and
"I think ZSS is terrible in teams. you can just choose to ignore her and her attacks are too weak to keep you from doing a 2 vs 1 on her teammate. Once her teammate is gone, ZSS can't fight 2 people by herself and dies at 80%."
LMAO. I feel like doing a 2 vs. 1 MM with you after that one
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Yea im basing my stuff off of absolutely nothing. I agree with snakeee now shes good in teams.
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
She is okay in teams especially if it's a GaW, as her down smash fills the bucket if you can get two seconds of free time.
Also, it appears that everyone is talking as though her over+b is her main kill move, I would say she is much better at doing gimps and unexpected down+b kicks. Your opponents, especially if they've fought you before, catch on to side+b very quick, so it's usually up to other options to win.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
oh gawd. This backroom discussion makes me sadness.
I'll try to make this essay rather brief, since I do have a love for Samus, I know my writings can get a bit long winded.
A lot of what Dazwa holds true, but I think a lot goes unmentioned.
Side-B is not, I repeat, NOT a kill move. For kills she has (in order of reliability): B-Air, U-Air, F-Air, Down-B Kick. Now, Up-B can spike and get a couple gimp kills, but that's really rare. Also, D-Smash should be considered a kill move, since one stun means, without a doubt, you will be hit by a B-Air.
As for the Side-B, that is used primarily as a spacing tool and a damage dealer. It does 16% sweetspotted, which is only 1% less than both hits of the F-Air (17%) which is her most damaging move. The only time this move should get a kill, is when we just died and it's absolutely fresh.
Her ground game is very sufficient. Her F-Smash is garbage and her U-Smash is "just okay". However, all of her tilts are extremely fast and deal a decent amount of damage. More importantly, they put the opponent above ZSS, which is where we want them. Her first jab is great, comes out in one frame, interrupts tons of ****. However, pulling off the full jab combo is impossible if the opponent is on the ground, since it can be shielded.
Her aerial game is very good. U-Air combos. No really, it does. F-Air is great for damage and edgeguarding. B-Air is very fast, has great knockback, and has extremely good range. D-Air just sucks. N-Air has really good range, will always deal 10% damage, and has very low lag on landing, meaning it's pretty good for approaching shields.
Out-of-shield is really where ZSS has trouble. It's not that she fears being in her shield, it's just that we can't really punish people attacking our shields very well. We can drop our shield into a jab pretty easily, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. We jab, cancel it to a d-tilt maybe, and pressure their shield right back, but it's just flips the coin, doesn't -really- punish them. She can perform aerials out of shield really easily, which is nice against characters that perform short-hop double aerials (Marth, DK, etc.). And her shieldgrab has pretty good range, even if it is slow, so she can punish even the most well spaced slow aerials. Probably the best option out of shield is to drop your shield and U-Tilt. Since it comes out in 3 Frames it can punish most attacks with 11% damage. The drawbacks are: they have to be close and if they shield it you're screwed because it has fairly bad lag. Other than U-Tilt, ZSS's out-of-shield game amounts to setting the playing field back to even instead of actually turning around and punishing your opponent.
Dazwa already summed up her recovery quite well. It's pretty **** good, only people really good at gimping are going to be able to properly gimp a ZSS. She's got a great jump height, a long-range multi-use tether, and a third jump with invincibility frames, 'nuff said.
D-Smash is insanely good. It doesn't hit behind, but it makes up for that with it's ridiculously large hitbox in front of it. It hits a ways under the ground it's fired on (meaning it'll hit below platforms and under edges). It takes a while to wind up, but has pretty much no lag after (since it counts as a projectile). And, if it connects, you're guaranteed a pretty good amount of damage. Most commonly, 2x D-Smash -> F-Air, which is 39% in training mode. Like I said before, it should be considered a kill move since a D-Smash allows for enough time to B-Air the opponent in either direction (AKA the closest wall).
Okay, that's all the analytic stuff. As for the subjective, this is my view on ZSS:
She's got heaps of potential for one reason: she's so average. By average I mean, pretty much every move she has is -equally- useful. It's not like Snake where it's pretty **** obvious that you should probably tilt your way through most of your match, or like Dedede with the rather potent chaingrab. These characters have very strong attributes that are singular in nature. You know what's good and you know what's not. However, with ZSS, almost every single move is "okay". With the exception of Side-B, there aren't too many moves that stand out in either way, good or bad. Of course you have a couple bad eggs (F-Smash/D-Air), but other than that, it's across the board. Some ZSS mains say F-Air isn't very useful, some say they get the most kills with it. Some never use N-Air, I use it as a staple approach. There are just so many different ways to use all of her different moves, it's a lot to keep track of during one match.
If you wanted me to summarize ZSS's capabilities into a tier placement, I would say she's high in mid.
If you want me to go further in-depth I can, like I said, I tried to keep it brief for the sake of you non-ZSS readers.
I'll try to make this essay rather brief, since I do have a love for Samus, I know my writings can get a bit long winded.
A lot of what Dazwa holds true, but I think a lot goes unmentioned.
Side-B is not, I repeat, NOT a kill move. For kills she has (in order of reliability): B-Air, U-Air, F-Air, Down-B Kick. Now, Up-B can spike and get a couple gimp kills, but that's really rare. Also, D-Smash should be considered a kill move, since one stun means, without a doubt, you will be hit by a B-Air.
As for the Side-B, that is used primarily as a spacing tool and a damage dealer. It does 16% sweetspotted, which is only 1% less than both hits of the F-Air (17%) which is her most damaging move. The only time this move should get a kill, is when we just died and it's absolutely fresh.
Her ground game is very sufficient. Her F-Smash is garbage and her U-Smash is "just okay". However, all of her tilts are extremely fast and deal a decent amount of damage. More importantly, they put the opponent above ZSS, which is where we want them. Her first jab is great, comes out in one frame, interrupts tons of ****. However, pulling off the full jab combo is impossible if the opponent is on the ground, since it can be shielded.
Her aerial game is very good. U-Air combos. No really, it does. F-Air is great for damage and edgeguarding. B-Air is very fast, has great knockback, and has extremely good range. D-Air just sucks. N-Air has really good range, will always deal 10% damage, and has very low lag on landing, meaning it's pretty good for approaching shields.
Out-of-shield is really where ZSS has trouble. It's not that she fears being in her shield, it's just that we can't really punish people attacking our shields very well. We can drop our shield into a jab pretty easily, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. We jab, cancel it to a d-tilt maybe, and pressure their shield right back, but it's just flips the coin, doesn't -really- punish them. She can perform aerials out of shield really easily, which is nice against characters that perform short-hop double aerials (Marth, DK, etc.). And her shieldgrab has pretty good range, even if it is slow, so she can punish even the most well spaced slow aerials. Probably the best option out of shield is to drop your shield and U-Tilt. Since it comes out in 3 Frames it can punish most attacks with 11% damage. The drawbacks are: they have to be close and if they shield it you're screwed because it has fairly bad lag. Other than U-Tilt, ZSS's out-of-shield game amounts to setting the playing field back to even instead of actually turning around and punishing your opponent.
Dazwa already summed up her recovery quite well. It's pretty **** good, only people really good at gimping are going to be able to properly gimp a ZSS. She's got a great jump height, a long-range multi-use tether, and a third jump with invincibility frames, 'nuff said.
D-Smash is insanely good. It doesn't hit behind, but it makes up for that with it's ridiculously large hitbox in front of it. It hits a ways under the ground it's fired on (meaning it'll hit below platforms and under edges). It takes a while to wind up, but has pretty much no lag after (since it counts as a projectile). And, if it connects, you're guaranteed a pretty good amount of damage. Most commonly, 2x D-Smash -> F-Air, which is 39% in training mode. Like I said before, it should be considered a kill move since a D-Smash allows for enough time to B-Air the opponent in either direction (AKA the closest wall).
Okay, that's all the analytic stuff. As for the subjective, this is my view on ZSS:
She's got heaps of potential for one reason: she's so average. By average I mean, pretty much every move she has is -equally- useful. It's not like Snake where it's pretty **** obvious that you should probably tilt your way through most of your match, or like Dedede with the rather potent chaingrab. These characters have very strong attributes that are singular in nature. You know what's good and you know what's not. However, with ZSS, almost every single move is "okay". With the exception of Side-B, there aren't too many moves that stand out in either way, good or bad. Of course you have a couple bad eggs (F-Smash/D-Air), but other than that, it's across the board. Some ZSS mains say F-Air isn't very useful, some say they get the most kills with it. Some never use N-Air, I use it as a staple approach. There are just so many different ways to use all of her different moves, it's a lot to keep track of during one match.
If you wanted me to summarize ZSS's capabilities into a tier placement, I would say she's high in mid.
If you want me to go further in-depth I can, like I said, I tried to keep it brief for the sake of you non-ZSS readers.
Dsmash>dsmash>fsmash = bad, and unreliable. That was a disappointing thing to read, considering RyokoYaksa was the first person to publicly announce that Fsmash has no use. Dsmash>dsmash>fair = ~ 39% if all moves are fresh before their first use and if you connect with both hits. Generally, that one is also easier to follow up with a forward B. For racking up damage, dsmash>dsmash>fair. Dsmash>dsmash>uair>... is also good, since you can generally follow it up with something.
Faded said just about everything else I would have said pretty well. I just want to reiterate one point.
Plasma Whip is not a KO move. It never was, and it never will be. Even without DI, it KOs later than sweetspotted bair, sweetspotted fair and Flip Jump's kick. The only time it should be KOing is gimp KOs against recoveries.
That said, if you never allow yourself to imagine that Plasma Whip is a KO move, you become a lot less wary about throwing it out randomly, and you find that it's one of the best and safest approaches in the game, because it almost always forces your opponent to close the gap on your terms.
Actually, I don't really find myself KOing from onstage that much anyway. Most of my KOs come from edgeguarding. ZSS also has a very good edgeguard. She can follow her opponent out with Plasma Whip, punish airdodges with bair, edgehog from far below the ledge and even perform a tether ledge stall. Furthermore, Dsmash sets up for a lot of things like sweetspotted fair, sourspotted bair, bair stagespike and my personal favorite: Flip Jump spike. A well-played ZSS does very well when edgeguarding.
Also, I think I should mention that ZSS' jab cancel is not that good. It's not much better than just waiting for the jab to end.
Faded said just about everything else I would have said pretty well. I just want to reiterate one point.
Plasma Whip is not a KO move. It never was, and it never will be. Even without DI, it KOs later than sweetspotted bair, sweetspotted fair and Flip Jump's kick. The only time it should be KOing is gimp KOs against recoveries.
That said, if you never allow yourself to imagine that Plasma Whip is a KO move, you become a lot less wary about throwing it out randomly, and you find that it's one of the best and safest approaches in the game, because it almost always forces your opponent to close the gap on your terms.
Actually, I don't really find myself KOing from onstage that much anyway. Most of my KOs come from edgeguarding. ZSS also has a very good edgeguard. She can follow her opponent out with Plasma Whip, punish airdodges with bair, edgehog from far below the ledge and even perform a tether ledge stall. Furthermore, Dsmash sets up for a lot of things like sweetspotted fair, sourspotted bair, bair stagespike and my personal favorite: Flip Jump spike. A well-played ZSS does very well when edgeguarding.
Also, I think I should mention that ZSS' jab cancel is not that good. It's not much better than just waiting for the jab to end.
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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- Jun 25, 2008
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Which definitely helps in battles.
Adapt
Smash Lord
I find utilt is ok OOS, I mean its not as good as marth's up-B but it puts your foe up above you where you can follow up. Snakeee likes to use uair as well.
I find some things really strange with ZSS... you can't try too hard and be too aggressive if you want to win with her. You have to calm down and react to what your opponent is doing.
I'm disappointed in the lack of discussion from the SBR, but not surprised. Almost no one plays ZSS
I went to a tourney with 62 ppl and I was the only person who played her.
I find some things really strange with ZSS... you can't try too hard and be too aggressive if you want to win with her. You have to calm down and react to what your opponent is doing.
I'm disappointed in the lack of discussion from the SBR, but not surprised. Almost no one plays ZSS
I went to a tourney with 62 ppl and I was the only person who played her.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Ok, first thing I want to do is pick apart the SBR synopsis:
On to ZSS in teams.
Obviously, one of your best options is to get yourself a friend who plays G&W and fill his bucket with charged D-smashes and just go to town. But that's not always an option, so you'll actually have to play. One of my favorite gimmicky tactics that myself and my doubles partner find hilarious to do in matches is C4 bombing with Snake. Simply place a C4 on ZSS and use her speed to charge at the opponent, either sticking it on them or using ZSS as a shielded bomb. Laugh for a few seconds and continue.
But in all seriousness. ZSS is a great teams partner. D-smash and stun shots provide great variability for both you and your partner (as well as a very safe option for getting your opponent out of throws; you can effectively fire a baby shot at someone in the middle of a throw and interrupt them while keeping your partner completely safe.) Her speed also allows her to follow up when your partner can't. If your partner is playing with a slow character, run across the stage for them and grab that sucker they smashed over there. If they're playing someone with a horrible aerial game, get off that ledge and KO that ******* for them. Also, because ZSS has multiple recovery options, accidentally gimping (or getting gimped by) your partner should be null. Overall, great speed, damage, and aerial options (because you know people are always in the air in teams matches) make her a great asset.
ZSS has a great aerial approach. While Plasma Whip may be predictable, it forces your opponent around it at your discretion and keeps you at a safe but still operable distance. Not to mention that timed right, the hitbox lasts longer than most airdodges. Combination U-airs, F-airs, and B-airs allow you to mix up your approach. U-air has a very large, sweeping hitbox that covers about 4/7 of a circle, so you can hit with it from many angles of approach. It is also extremely fast, and when chasing a falling opponent you have potentially 3-4 attempts to nail them with one and keep them up. Her Stun shot also gives her aerial approach variability, and when used on a falling opponent can allow you to fall past them and get under them while they're stunned, allowing you to finish with an U-air; or you can stun and approach in general with a F-air. Obviously this all is just a small example of the possibilities.
Can't disagree with this. But her throws in general are decent.
This is something still being debated on. OOS option for ZSS are: limited yet variably effective. As in, OOS options on aerial opponents are good, while OOS options on grounded opponents are poor. As said before, U-air OOS is great on falling/stalling opponents; whereas on a grounded opponent, your options are severely limited. High short hops make using aerial attacks OOS clumsy and impractical. U-tilt OOS is effective in some situations, as it comes out instantly and has decent range; the downside to that is the lag animation afterwards makes following up with anything almost impossible. Jab OOS is alright; it has a 1 frame startup, but following through with an actual jab combo is ineffective and will be countered back at you. D-tilt and F-tilt OOS can work to your advantage, but aside from these two moves there isn't much to mix it up with.
I like to think we're the most civilized and organized board, hence, we think the most.
This made me rage. Plasma Whip is the most common SPACING move. It just happens to have decent damage and knockback. Using it to KO is good when you're in a difficult position against your opponent and can't risk getting close. Other than that, you'll always want to KO with a B-air, U-air, F-air, or Flip Jump.
To quote Snakeee, "A good ZSS does NOT get gimped!" Most of this was already gone over before; ZSS has enough tricks that she can mix it up and almost never get gimped. Someone said before (it might have been Dazwa in his lengthy post, I can't remember) that using Flip Jump's kick as a "suicide" move on ledge-hoggers can be used as a last resort. This is never a good idea, since you can (much easier) just use a special footstool out of Flip Jump on the ledge-hogger. Which is another thing that I was disappointed wasn't mentioned: Flip Jump's amazing footstool properties. It's difficult to get down, but being able to footstool Metaknight's Whorenado is great.
Personally I steer away from her jab combo now, as I've been all too often shield-grabbed out of the second hit. One jab is plenty. Two is too many. Three is right out. It is, however, great out of a dash attack onto an aerial opponent.
On to ZSS in teams.
Obviously, one of your best options is to get yourself a friend who plays G&W and fill his bucket with charged D-smashes and just go to town. But that's not always an option, so you'll actually have to play. One of my favorite gimmicky tactics that myself and my doubles partner find hilarious to do in matches is C4 bombing with Snake. Simply place a C4 on ZSS and use her speed to charge at the opponent, either sticking it on them or using ZSS as a shielded bomb. Laugh for a few seconds and continue.
But in all seriousness. ZSS is a great teams partner. D-smash and stun shots provide great variability for both you and your partner (as well as a very safe option for getting your opponent out of throws; you can effectively fire a baby shot at someone in the middle of a throw and interrupt them while keeping your partner completely safe.) Her speed also allows her to follow up when your partner can't. If your partner is playing with a slow character, run across the stage for them and grab that sucker they smashed over there. If they're playing someone with a horrible aerial game, get off that ledge and KO that ******* for them. Also, because ZSS has multiple recovery options, accidentally gimping (or getting gimped by) your partner should be null. Overall, great speed, damage, and aerial options (because you know people are always in the air in teams matches) make her a great asset.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
What I like to do his hit them with the first attack of the aaa combo and then do D-tilt. It can work sometimes pretty well and depending on the opponents weight/% I can try to follow it up with a lot of different stuff like side-b or f-air.
Her out of shield options are pretty bad but D-tilt is the one I use the most or if their someone big like bowser a short hopped aerial could work.
Her out of shield options are pretty bad but D-tilt is the one I use the most or if their someone big like bowser a short hopped aerial could work.
Snakeee
Smash Master
What seems to happen with the jab combo except against DDD or another character with an instant grab is:
Jab, jab *they attempt shield grab* jab, jab, *they try another shield grab*, jab, jab, and uh...jab? I'd say about half the time I get grabbed and half the time I finish the combo. But, they always end up taking some damage just from eating all those double jabs. I should really just do that once or twice then do jab - d-tilt I think. That does space her away from a grab against most characters if they shield it. But, interrupting shield grabs with another jab combo does work if you're very quick.
Jab, jab *they attempt shield grab* jab, jab, *they try another shield grab*, jab, jab, and uh...jab? I'd say about half the time I get grabbed and half the time I finish the combo. But, they always end up taking some damage just from eating all those double jabs. I should really just do that once or twice then do jab - d-tilt I think. That does space her away from a grab against most characters if they shield it. But, interrupting shield grabs with another jab combo does work if you're very quick.
FBM
Smash Apprentice
One OOS option an Olimar-playing friend tipped me off to that has its uses with ZSS is a jump-canceled upsmash. It's only really useful against enemies in front of you, because there's no initial hitbox behind you, but it does come out on frame 6 and being able to do it straight from the shield means you can punish blocked aerials with it pretty well.
I do agree with ph00t that her edgeguarding is quite strong. She's one of the few characters that can actually give MK trouble at the edge.
And as far as side-B killing, the stale move list is what? 10 moves long? If you land a couple u-airs or jabs when they are around 100% and grab -> pummel -> throw, you have a fresh (or very close to fresh) side-B. And sometimes you might just find that you haven't been needing to use it for a little while (like on Battlefield when you've been juggling them through the platforms) and it's fresh when they are in KO range. And one hit from a side-B a little ways offstage is pretty much certain death even when heavily decayed.
I do agree with ph00t that her edgeguarding is quite strong. She's one of the few characters that can actually give MK trouble at the edge.
And as far as side-B killing, the stale move list is what? 10 moves long? If you land a couple u-airs or jabs when they are around 100% and grab -> pummel -> throw, you have a fresh (or very close to fresh) side-B. And sometimes you might just find that you haven't been needing to use it for a little while (like on Battlefield when you've been juggling them through the platforms) and it's fresh when they are in KO range. And one hit from a side-B a little ways offstage is pretty much certain death even when heavily decayed.
UnSaxon51
Smash Journeyman
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I have a lot of fun playing Zamus, but I'll admit I only play her for fun.
That said, I think a big part of the "Side-B" KO argument is because it's one of the best (if not the best) approach moves she has, on top of being great for spacing. This means that it's going to come out and hopefully connect A LOT.
I agree that Bair and Uair are better kill moves. No question.
Flip Jump kick is (in my opinion) her best kill move... but against an opponent who how it works, it's also the least likely to hit (again, in my opinion)
But I find that my most common KO move is still Side-B. Even with move decay, it's just so much easier to catch opponents with that move than either of the others.
This is all just single matchup. I don't play teams enough to make any comments there.
That said, I think a big part of the "Side-B" KO argument is because it's one of the best (if not the best) approach moves she has, on top of being great for spacing. This means that it's going to come out and hopefully connect A LOT.
I agree that Bair and Uair are better kill moves. No question.
Flip Jump kick is (in my opinion) her best kill move... but against an opponent who how it works, it's also the least likely to hit (again, in my opinion)
But I find that my most common KO move is still Side-B. Even with move decay, it's just so much easier to catch opponents with that move than either of the others.
This is all just single matchup. I don't play teams enough to make any comments there.
Dairantou boy X
Smash Rookie
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- Oct 18, 2008
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- 13
i think that zss is a good character. like ever character in brawl, she has pros and cons. if u're using her/planning to use her, u just need to get to know her moves and how she works. that's all.