Match-up discussion #26: Ike

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 13, 2008

Time for another match-up...Ike...

He's weird. Most ppl think he has only power but his range and the size of his hitboxes are great too. I'll notice it, if you try to roll behind him - don't do it.
What I find strange about this match-up is that it's hard to measure in numbers. Wolf has a very solid advantage vs Ike but you can't afford to make a mistake against him, since he can KO you at low %. Ikes best move is by far his neutral A, which is relatively fast, deals good damage and has good range. Use your shield more than anything else. Rolling is too risky and so are shine counters. One mistake and he can beat you up.

Other than that Ike isn't too hard. Wolfs aerial game easily beats his and your mobility can give him lots of troubles. Outcamp him and punish him at given time and you win

60:40 Wolfs favour

Discuss

§witch · Oct 13, 2008

Easy gimps man, we also outrange him, which is his advantage vs most characters. Just don't roll alot, you'll get *****.

Ris747 · Oct 13, 2008

Laser alot, use lots of retreating 0-lag fairs and bairs and try to get him off the stage where you can gimp him. Best advice I have besides don't get hit and space yourself well. 6:4 Wolf

*Edit* What was I thinking... 6/10... That isn't even possible. Anyways I meant 6:4

Collective of Bears · Oct 13, 2008

Lasers and Aerials are your best bet. Do your best to gimp and/or spike him.

60:40, Wolf's favor.

Ishiey · Oct 13, 2008

Ike fights for his friends. This coupled with the fact that he won't give you any sympathy makes the matchup (along with all of Ike's other matchups) a battle that can be won through phychological manipulation. As long as you have no need for his sympathy and don't mess with his friends, his greatest strengths are taken away.

I'm sorry for that, not feeling too stable today. Gimp his ***, watch out for his great tilts, they're pretty good for kills. He has a few jab mixups that are effective, but idk much about them. Keep away from his jab and there's little reason to lose unless there's a huge skill gap. Nair autocancels, and his disjointedness/priority is better than yours (most notably with uair for me), but besides that it's all good. I've never fought a very good Ike, but Wolf definitely has the advantage. 65:35 I guess.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 13, 2008

Wolfs favor clearly. 60:40 for wolf.

Arturito_Burrito · Oct 13, 2008

wow I'm surprised its not 90:10 guess its only the lucario boards that think that way.

I'll add some input from Ike's side I usually wait for other ikes to do it and then just correct them if they get something wrong though.

60-65 wolf's favor sounds good to me though.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 13, 2008

Ya, IIRC, the Ike Match-Up chart has it down as 60-40 currently.

Just going to throw out random info about Ike and a few things to expect:

1) As someone said, Nair Autocancels. However, Fair also has IASA frames on it. It's extremely hard to get a hit in after Ike does a retreating Fair, due to the range (aerial with the most range not counting projectiles + tethers) and the IASA frames.

2) AA can go into just about anything with the crouch cancel. AA->AA->Grab, AA->Aether, A->AA->AAA, AA->Ftilt, AA->Dtilt, you get the picture.

3) Don't count on QD gimp kills. Anytime an Ike can QD back to the stage, he can aether back. Guess what he's going to do, unless it's 100% safe to QD?

4) Expect Lylat Cruise as a CP, as that stage is well known for screwing over spacies' recoveries. If you ban/scratch out that stage, you're looking at Cornelia (Ike has an infinite at the fin + small blastzones = very early kills for Ike), or Green Greens. (Blastzones mainly)

Meh, good enough for a quick list of things. I need to eat....

Wyvern-x · Oct 13, 2008

60-65 Wolf's advantage. Ike has range and power over Wolf. Wolf has camping and attack speed over Ike. They both can screw with each others recoveries.

Arturito_Burrito · Oct 13, 2008

Well I do think wolf's Fsmash can hit Ike durring a retreating Fair. At least if its PSed don't know about normal and side step.

What other attack does wolf have that has huge range?

Ussi · Oct 14, 2008

Ike's jab cancels out all of Wolf's ground game (Cept maybe ftilt?), i mean literally. Doesn't mean it breaks it though >_>

Wolf's dthrow will throw Ike that he can't recover once he's at 130%+ (near edge) Remember to yell "you must recover" if its a friendly ;o

Ike just had to learn Wolf's laser patterns to get around if

As said before, one mistake = 15-25% more damage on Wolf. gimping Ike, Wolf only has a laser or a good bair. Just Wolf has to be extra careful going off stage to spike/bair Ike, for he might not return if he goes out too far or in a bad angle.

a good spacing Ike will be hard to hit with dsmash, and when at killing percents he's be wary of dsmash and keep his distance extra careful.

also, aerial games take more than just speed to outright beat Ike's. Ike's aerial game has massive range, and has a lot of things about his air game. Nair is his combo game, yes COMBO, Ike has a true combo with his nair, also has a lingering hitbox meaning it will **** air dodges. Fair has the largest reach for and aerial. Uair is another lingering hit box but this one KILLS. Bair is Ike's fastest aerial, at the cost of a large hitbox. Ike's dair isn't a move you approach with, but it's also a lingering hitbox so be warned if you try to chase Ike from below him. Wolf doesn't have comparable aerial range to Ike, therefore Ike can keep pressure on Wolf's air game with spaced aerials. Ike's fair also isn't that easy to get around. It's a great defensive tool with its huge hitbox.

I've fought a good Wolf, and Ike isn't helpless, but like a majority of characters, Ike has to be ahead of the game to win. And Well, Ike has a moveset to make major come backs, so don't relax if you have a stock lead, Ike can surprise you if you take it easy for a second.

Oh yea, I don't believe in statistics

When you play Fire Emblem, 40% of getting hit scares the **** of you. (Anagloy on match up numbers)

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 14, 2008

Ussi said:
Oh yea, I don't believe in statistics When you play Fire Emblem, 40% of getting hit scares the **** of you. (Anagloy on match up numbers)

best analogy ever

Ishiey · Oct 14, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
best analogy ever

Agreed.

10axesanddarkmagics

Sesshomuronay · Oct 14, 2008

especially when those axes are killer.

XACE-K · Oct 14, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
He's weird. Most ppl think he has only power but his range and the size of his hitboxes are great too. I'll notice it, if you try to roll behind him - don't do it.
What I find strange about this match-up is that it's hard to measure in numbers. Wolf has a very solid advantage vs Ike but you can't afford to make a mistake against him, since he can KO you at low %. Ikes best move is by far his neutral A, which is relatively fast, deals good damage and has good range. Use your shield more than anything else. Rolling is too risky and so are shine counters. One mistake and he can beat you up.

Other than that Ike isn't too hard. Wolfs aerial game easily beats his and your mobility can give him lots of troubles. Outcamp him and punish him at given time and you win

Ike will use his power and range to beat Wolf in the match-up. Ike's AAA is good but he'll usually jab cancel into grab, possibly d-tilt if he can spike you and other options. All of Ike's aerials are good (damage-wise, not always speed-wise) so you do have to worry about them. Camping against Ike will work but a good camping Wolf will piss Ike off.

I'll say 60-40 Wolf's favor

§witch said:
Easy gimps man, we also outrange him, which is his advantage vs most characters. Just don't roll alot, you'll get *****.

Wolf outranges Ike? I didn't know that.

And yes, don't roll a lot.

Commander Blitzkrieg said:
Lasers and Aerials are your best bet. Do your best to gimp and/or spike him.

60:40, Wolf's favor.

Easier said than done. Lasers and aerials are the best thing to do but the gimping, not so much.

Ike has 4 spikes (d-air, d-tilt, Aether and Eruption) all of which are very good spikes. His b-air and Aether can stage spike you. Both Wolf and Ike have crappy recoveries so the could gimp each other equally (although Wolf's b-air is great way to gimp Ike). When using side-B to recover, aim for the ledge because missing it could decide the result of a stock.

Nice sig btw.

neon..? · Oct 14, 2008

xace you put four spikes down but said he has three.

Arturito_Burrito · Oct 15, 2008

^ pretty sure that was a joke if not haha stupid xace now we laugh at you not with you.

odd how little match up discussion there is here. I got yagami to do wolf for our next match up as well so that should help things out guess we have to check between the two threads no though =\ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160&page=61

XACE-K · Oct 15, 2008

Arturito_Burrito said:
^ pretty sure that was a joke if not haha stupid xace now we laugh at you not with you.

odd how little match up discussion there is here. I got yagami to do wolf for our next match up as well so that should help things out guess we have to check between the two threads no though =\ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160&page=61

D:

*cries*

And join our discussion Wolfies.

Kinzer · Oct 15, 2008

Eh I think we covered pretty much everything between Ike and Wolf in this thread *shrug*. We'll probably have to wait and see if Light decides to come up with a write-up for Wolf or if anything more gets added.

Edit: Oh I think maybe Wolf could possibly infinite Ike with HIS F-throw against a wall, not too sure though and I highly doubt this, but I just want to be sure of everything possible.

Excellence · Oct 15, 2008

Two quick questions: How well do Shine approaches work in this match-up? And, does Ike's Fair outrange Wolf's Bair?

XACE-K · Oct 15, 2008

Excellence said:
Two quick questions: How well do Shine approaches work in this match-up? And, does Ike's Fair outrange Wolf's Bair?

1. Shine isn't really important in the match-up. It could lead into different attacks for Wolf but if he misses than Ike will punish his mistake.

2. I think it outranges his b-air but I'm not entirely sure.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 15, 2008

Ike's Fair has more range then any other air move that isn't a projectile or a tether.

Arturito_Burrito · Oct 15, 2008

I'm not sure but does wolf ever shine spike? If so thats pretty much useless against Ike thanks to the SA that aether has.

A2ZOMG · Oct 15, 2008

Ike is mad easy. I second Ike, and I can tell you that he's one of the easiest characters to play against once you learn a few tricks.

If you're good at shielding, you will ruin him especially since you have range that rivals his. Moreover, you outcamp him with lasers. Don't charge into him recklessly and you should win this matchup pretty easily.Moreover, Ike really can't edgeguard Wolf at all. So he'll have a hard time KOing Wolf.

All Ike has on Wolf is Jab out of shield IIRC. His F-air occasionally can punish badly timed lasers, but that shouldn't happen often.

7/3 or 65/35 in Wolf's favor IMO.

Kinzer · Oct 15, 2008

Eh Wolf's shine spike wouldn't seem too smart, Wolf is quite the fast faller, and unlike Fox he continues to fall-down like so. It's already been said that Ike gimps Wolf easier than he gimps Ike, they're safest bet is just camping at the edge of the stage.

And A2 I think you're giving Wolf WAY too much credit.

Ussi · Oct 15, 2008

A2ZOMG if your not sarcastic I don't think I will ever take you seriously ever again

Onxy · Oct 15, 2008

A2ZOMG said that ROB had a 9:1 advantage vs Ivysaur. I personally wouldn't pay too much attention to his wacky numbers.

A2ZOMG · Oct 16, 2008

7/3 isn't wacky against Ike. Ike sucks against camping and Wolf has a much better defensive game than Ike. Ike doesn't have any good combos or gimps on Wolf, so really he doesn't have much against Wolf since he can't play keep-away. Basically, Wolf has all the advantages on Ike that matter against Ike, and Ike has none of the advantages against Wolf that matter against him (aside from Jab out of shield which is good for punishing shielded attacks).

Wolf's F-smash also outranges all of Ike's attacks. While it's not disjointed, it can punish anything Ike whiffs.

And Onxy, you're way too biased in favor of Ivysaur. You think she actually stands a chance against ROB while every other good player I've talked to agrees she gets horribly ***** in the matchup. You and other PTs also don't give Squirtle as much credit as you guys should. You and other guys at that forum almost always assume that he loses to guys with disjointed hitboxes because he gets range ***** when that's usually not true at all. I might have been exaggerating saying Ivysaur loses 9/1 to ROB, but the point still is she shouldn't be winning against him any time soon.

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

That wasn't my point A2ZOMG. I was saying that you love to throw out horrid numbers for no reason. It seems like you think since that the character is lower, so that means he must instantly lose the matchup.

A2ZOMG · Oct 16, 2008

I don't throw out those numbers for "no reason". You might not like them, but I actually think these numbers out carefully.

Back at PT forums: The fact of a matter is that getting grabbed by ROB isn't very hard. DIing his throws is hard. If your recovery is bad, and you're off stage, you will get gimped if the ROB has a clue about what he's doing.

These forums: If you think that Ike somehow doesn't do badly against Ike, tell me what reliable ways he has around lasers. Then tell me what he can do to Wolf in close range besides Jab. Then tell me how he reliably gimps Wolf.

The fact of the matter is Ike really can't do much to Wolf at all besides Jab out of shield. No combos, bad edgeguarding that probably doesn't work on Wolf's recovery, and all of his kill moves are slow.

Kinzer · Oct 16, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
I don't throw out those numbers for "no reason". You might not like them, but I actually think these numbers out carefully.

If you think that Wolf somehow doesn't do badly against Ike, tell me what reliable ways he has around lasers. Then tell me what he can do to Wolf in close range besides Jab. Then tell me how he reliably gimps Wolf.

The fact of the matter is Ike really can't do much to Wolf at all besides Jab out of shield. No combos, bad edgeguarding that probably doesn't work on Wolf's recovery, and all of his kill moves are slow.

I don't know what to say about the first sentence, but moving on...

Erm...are you familiar with powershields...or better yet jumps?! The laser is not THAT spammable by any means. And besides Jabs, there are grabs, Nairs, Reversed Bairs (though probably not the best way), and I'm pretty sure the first attack from Dsmash is quite fast itself if I do say so myself (pretty sure that's kidn of laggy, but whatever). You win there when you say it's pretty hard to gimp Wolf when he WF recovers (though still counterable...one example is by literally predicting where he comes back on the stage assuming he doesn't sweetspot the ledge and readying Counter...) As fo Fire Wolf...urgh, what a horrible way to recover, but is unfortunately his only means of vertical recovery, even WF is a better method to use when you want to go diagonal...

As I've said before Ike has an easier time gimping Wolf than Wolf being capable of gimping Ike. Why you might ask? Because Wolf's freaking Dair is not disjointed and it will most likely get him hurt if he tries to punish this when Ike recovers with Aether.

Maybe you can't see this, but jab is all we need for OoS combat. Jabs lead into more jabs if we want to pressure Wolf's shield, and if we don't feel like doing so we can just grab him in the jab. Oh and Ike does have at least one combo, and I've already said it, it's the Nair to Jab to anything your imagine wants to put in here. If there are any other combos Ike has, I don't know about them, but this alone is pretty d*** good already. His edgegaurding is OKAY, not BAD, not GOOD, but just in between, at least compared to Wolf IMO. Don't even get me started on Ike's methods for killing. A good example is only the obvious Fsmash, which is pretty hard to not notice that it is of course slow, but there are other ways to work around Ike's laggy moves.

If you claim to second Ike, you really should try to think. Either be more open-minded, or just read up more, I swear to God you aren't giving Ike enough credit.

As for the PT vs R.O.B. matchup, that's up to you and anybody else who cares about it to worry about, I know nothing about this situation.

And I fixed your typo, because this isn't an Ike vs Ike matchup.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 16, 2008

Kinzer said:
As I've said before Ike has an easier time gimping Wolf than Wolf being capable of gimping Ike. Why you might ask? Because Wolf's freaking Dair is not disjointed and it will most likely get him hurt if he tries to punish this when Ike recovers with Aether.

Wolf has better recovery then ike.

Kinzer · Oct 16, 2008

^^

I guess in terms of being able to have decent ways to recovery both horizontally and vertically are true, but Fire Wolf for left/right recovery over Wolf Flash, and vice versa? Not really, Fire Wolf is just all too easy to edgehog when Wolf has no where else to go and is too low...even if he were high enough I'm not sure how soon he can start DIing left/right, I think he just plummets straight down for a good while after a vertical Fire Wolf.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 16, 2008

Wolfs up-b is pretty bad. But for any other kind of recovery the side-b is always better.

Now for ike its kinda the opposite. His up-b is good for recovery and hard to gimp but his side-b is easy to see coming and gimp.

I just favor wolf slightly(in recovery) because we have things like semi-scarring and all these kinds of fancy cancels and things we can do.

Kinzer · Oct 16, 2008

Ah that's very true...atm all we have with Quickdraw is that if we don't get the attack off we can do another attack and still slide a little bit, otherwise it's not that good right now. :/

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 16, 2008

Wolf can gimp Ike way more easily.

Push Ike off the stage
Press "B"
???
Profit

A2ZOMG · Oct 16, 2008

Kinzer said:
Erm...are you familiar with powershields...or better yet jumps?! The laser is not THAT spammable by any means. And besides Jabs, there are grabs, Nairs, Reversed Bairs (though probably not the best way), and I'm pretty sure the first attack from Dsmash is quite fast itself if I do say so myself (pretty sure that's kidn of laggy, but whatever). You win there when you say it's pretty hard to gimp Wolf when he WF recovers (though still counterable...one example is by literally predicting where he comes back on the stage assuming he doesn't sweetspot the ledge and readying Counter...) As fo Fire Wolf...urgh, what a horrible way to recover, but is unfortunately his only means of vertical recovery, even WF is a better method to use when you want to go diagonal...

Powershielding lasers is good. However:

The laser ALONE means that Ike cannot safely approach with any spaced attacks.

Wolf you should keep in mind has very good aerial DI. What this means is if he anticipates an attack, all he needs to do is a retreating laser, and it will punish anything Ike throws at him.

As I've said before Ike has an easier time gimping Wolf than Wolf being capable of gimping Ike. Why you might ask? Because Wolf's freaking Dair is not disjointed and it will most likely get him hurt if he tries to punish this when Ike recovers with Aether.

Bleh, what Wolf does have over Ike however is laser Ike as he returns. If he's bold, what he can also do is chase Ike off stage with an aerial. I give that Ike isn't particularly easy for Wolf to gimp, but that doesn't really matter, since Wolf has a reliable KO move on Ike with D-smash out of shield.

Maybe you can't see this, but jab is all we need for OoS combat. Jabs lead into more jabs if we want to pressure Wolf's shield, and if we don't feel like doing so we can just grab him in the jab. Oh and Ike does have at least one combo, and I've already said it, it's the Nair to Jab to anything your imagine wants to put in here. If there are any other combos Ike has, I don't know about them, but this alone is pretty d*** good already. His edgegaurding is OKAY, not BAD, not GOOD, but just in between, at least compared to Wolf IMO. Don't even get me started on Ike's methods for killing. A good example is only the obvious Fsmash, which is pretty hard to not notice that it is of course slow, but there are other ways to work around Ike's laggy moves.

You can't do that against Wolf safely because his Jab is also extremely good. Very fast, and has excellent range and low lag.

N-air to Jab doesn't work unless Wolf has bad DI and doesn't jump. Ike's ONLY true combo is full hop D-air to double jump B-air at around 30%.

If you claim to second Ike, you really should try to think. Either be more open-minded, or just read up more, I swear to God you aren't giving Ike enough credit.

I've not just played as Ike, I've also played Falconv1.0's Ike (legitimately the best Ike in NorCal). Playing against him and other Ikes, the general consensus I've come to is that anyone who is good at shielding will give Ike an extremely hard time, especially if they have range that rivals Ike.

Ike lacks any aerial combos or reliable edeguarding on Wolf, so he rarely has any control over what's going on.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 16, 2008

Push Ike off the stage
Press "B"
Watch Ike either airdodge the laser or simply use his second jump after and easily make it back within aether range (even though the laser wouldn't be enough to gimp Ike. Not by a long shot)
Try to spike Ike with Dair
Get Aether Spiked
Ike grabs the ledge during Aether Spike
?????
Ike's Profit

Seriously, the laser is doing next to squat for gimping Ike. It doesn't have the range or rapidty for Wolf to be able to use it onstage, and off stage is asking to be aetherspike'd.

N-air to Jab doesn't work unless Wolf has bad DI and doesn't jump. Ike's ONLY true combo is full hop D-air to double jump B-air at around 30%.q

N-air to grounded target to Jab at low %s works 100% of the time. Learn2readstufffromseveralmonthsago

The laser ALONE means that Ike cannot safely approach with any spaced attacks.

Wolf you should keep in mind has very good aerial DI. What this means is if he anticipates an attack, all he needs to do is a retreating laser, and it will punish anything Ike throws at him.

Have you tried testing to see if Ike's aerials can cancel out the laser? Seeing that, you know, they do cancel out some? And he can't retreat off of the stage ledge, seeing how there's no walkoff stages allowed. Even then, he would eventually have to move back forwards. And Wolf's blaster isn't fast enough (both in movement speed and rapidity) or has enough range to shut down Ike. Falco's? Yep. Wolf's? Nope. Simple walking forward and powershielding takes care of most, if not all of that tactic. Eventually, Wolf is going to have to more forward.

You can't do that against Wolf safely because his Jab is also extremely good. Very fast, and has excellent range and low lag.

What's the frame data on it compared to Ike's AA->CC'd?

A2ZOMG · Oct 16, 2008

Nidtendofreak said:
N-air to grounded target to Jab at low %s works 100% of the time. Learn2readstufffromseveralmonthsago

You can SDI out of that easily since the hit from the N-air will put you up high enough to break out of the combo. A good opponent will not get hit by the third jab from a N-air.

It's a mediocre combo at best. What Ike actually needs against Wolf is a reliable means to juggle him, and Ike by far is one of the worst, if not the worst juggler in Brawl.

Have you tried testing to see if Ike's aerials can cancel out the laser? Seeing that, you know, they do cancel out some? And he can't retreat off of the stage ledge, seeing how there's no walkoff stages allowed. Even then, he would eventually have to move back forwards. And Wolf's blaster isn't fast enough (both in movement speed and rapidity) or has enough range to shut down Ike. Falco's? Yep. Wolf's? Nope. Simple walking forward and powershielding takes care of most, if not all of that tactic. Eventually, Wolf is going to have to more forward.

The BS about lasers is that they outprioritize everything.

EVERYTHING.

Basically, Ike can't safely do aerials to approach Ike because Wolf can jump backwards and shoot a laser if he tries to attack. The blaster comes out very fast, so any attack Ike tries to do can be punished. Because of the blaster, Ike will find himself with very few situations where he can throw out an attack. This gives Wolf more opportunity to pick at Ike's defenses. The main point here is that Ike's options are significantly more limited for approaching than Wolf's, and this makes him predictable, and therefore fairly easy to deal with.

What's the frame data on it compared to Ike's AA->CC'd?

Doesn't matter. If you Jab Wolf's shield and go to the third jab, he will hit you back. If you try to cancel into a grab, he can still hit you back because that takes too long to legitimately combo into.

The point is it's not even that safe to get close to Wolf because he's very good at handling himself in that situation.

OmegaXF · Oct 18, 2008

Arturito_Burrito said:
Well I do think wolf's Fsmash can hit Ike durring a retreating Fair. At least if its PSed don't know about normal and side step.

What other attack does wolf have that has huge range?

Other than Lasers and his Forward-B i think thats it.

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