Luigi Matchup Discussion Thread: (Update: Wario Discussion)

Luigi Matchup Thread
current status: REVAMP

image credit goes to Sir-Heartsalot from deviantart​

• Ness

• Snake

• Kirby (KERBEH!)

• Falco

• Toon Link

• Meta Knight

• Dedede

• Game and Watch

• ROB

• Marth: from pg. 15-->18

• Diddy Kong: from pg. 18-->19

• Zero Suit Samus: pg. 19-->20

• Toon Link: pg. 20-->22

• Wario: pg. 23--->

Ness

50:50

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Snake
45:55

Snake for Claus!

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Kirby
50:50

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Falco
45:55

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Toon Link
50:50

MATCHUP ANALYSIS


Meta Knight

35:65

Meta Knight, currently THE top tier character and one of the hardest matchup's that a Luigi user will ever face. His edge-guarding game is superior and can severely gimp Luigi. In all, it is a bad matchup for Luigi but if one remembers Luigi's pro's one might be able to take the win.

Most people focused way to much on D3 and evaded MK completely. In other words keep adding more insight on the matchup.

matchup synopsis said:

teh_spamerer gave us a bit of info on the damage percentiles needed to kill MK and vice-versa. Of course this was in training mode, in other words no great DI. So if one takes into consideration how DI affects the moves these percentiles will be affected slightly.

teh_spamerer said:

Here's some data on when Luigi kills Meta and when Meta kills Luigi. The tests were performed against a level 3 CPU in training mode set to Stop(they still DI, though I doubt it's perfect DI)

Luigi
up B- 43%
fsmash angled up - 72%
aeriel up B - 74%
fsmash - 86%
upsmash - 94%
nair - 105%
reverse dsmash - 109%
uptilt - 115%
dsmash - 118%
bthrow - 135%
bair - 136%
dair - 140%
upthrow - 167%
ftilt - 173%
fair - 186%

Meta Knight
tipper uptilt(only possible if Luigi is in the air) - 115%
fsmash - 117%
reverse dsmash - 118%
glide attack - 128%
nair - 133%
dsmash - 135%
grounded shuttle loop - 135%
dimensional cape attack - 162%
tipper dair - 168%
aeriel shuttle loop - 170%
upthrow - 171%
bair last hit only - 172%

Click to expand...

Key points in the match-up:

-Use fireballs but not to much. In other words smartly.
-If a tornado approaches shield it and point it up so that if the MT won't poke through your shield.
-MK is light and when he is around 70-80% he will be in KO range of Luigi's smashes. (d-smash is an exception.)

ALiAs said:

se Jabs. Jabs are the only moves that can keep up with MK's broken quickness, and peppering these in during the match gives you quick damage and breathing room.

Never follow up Dthrows: No matter at what percent he is in, he'll be able to counter attack (usually with Dair). Dair is the last move you want to get hit with in the air. This goes for all MKs though. Unless you are playing a combo artist that makes up new MK strings every match, chances are you'll find an MK who uses the familiar strings of attacks (usually repeating the same moves in sequence). Learn how MK strings work so you can be in position to avoid them.

There is a double edged sword in the manner of counter picks too. Picking a stage like FD means MK is more apt to enter freefall if they whiff anyone of their B moves. Without platforms, they can't cut the lag out without being close to the ground. In the case of the Tornado, it's priority is reduced on the ground, so the incentive to use that as a ground approach is reduced.

On the other hand, removing platforms creates a narrow corridor to your enemy, who can easily overwhelm you with spammy attacks. Depending on your style of playing, you might need to adjust the counterpick. A more grounded Luigi is better to use in this situation, meaning you don't buffer SHs all the time, because doing so creates the risk of gettng knocked in the air.

This is the only matchup where I try to land the UpB as a tactic, since it kills so early. Prolonging a fight with a metaknight is not good, especially at higher percents where any attack he uses is gonna send you offstage for an almost ensured gimp. Of course just because you use UpB as a tactic doesn't mean it will work, and if you decided to counterpick a flat stage, you have no place to land quickly. For that reason, keep the fight in the centre of BF if you go there, but watch out for the obvious shuttle loop

Click to expand...

We need more info on MK matchup.

Click to expand...

King Dedede

30:70
(Luigi at a disadvantage)

matchup synopsis said:

hippiedude92 said:

Along with what I've got to say with D3.

Luigi's things he has.

- Can juggle with utilts easily from 0-40%
- Can combo him easily due to his fat size
- Has greater ground game mobility (edit: I'm actually might take this out)
- Can punish D3's mistakes espically with a shoryuken
- Has a projectile
- Has great recovery but can't gimp very well on the way back to stage as D3's

D3's things he has.

- Can live longer due to his immense big weight
- Has variety of projectiles that can distract/actually kill by surprise
- Has infinite but can't CG
- Multiple jumps and a huge vertical recovery
- Can edgeguard very easily and has nasty tricks on Luigi
- Ftilt/Dtilt shuts down ground-game approachs and espically with Tornado
- Has alot of grab range
- Easily punishs Luigi if not careful espically with Fair/Bair/Uptilt/sometimes a dash attack when you least expect it

Click to expand...

Analysis:

side note: Magus pointed out that if one expects the infinite's next punch to avoid move decay one can escape the infinite at higher percentages, 1st post on 4th page if you want more info on the topic.

Author's note on Analysis:

I believe that Hippie's post kinda summarizes everything that most of us have been saying on the D3 matchup so I will quote accordingly. If anyone feels like discussing this again or feels that something here is incorrect please let me know.

hippiedude92 said:

This match is all about Luigi's defense vs D3's offense. Sooner or later it'll go to Luigi's offense vs D3's defense but take note you must be extremely careful and patient in handling your offense against him because he can inhale you and suicide.
D3's main tools on stage will be Ftilts, (shuts down ground game along with Dtilt), projectiles, grabs, shield grabs. Luigi's main tools on stages is Ftilt tornado, fireball, shield grabs, Bairs. In this match D3 has a better favor than yours. Luigi players will fear getting grabbed espically the infinite. Let's take a indepth look what D3's moves can do

- Ftilt is a great spacing tool. It shuts down ground game approachs, it clanks with your tornado approach and is sometimes followed up from a dthrow to mix up their grab game.

-Dtilt works the same as Ftilt but Ftilt is more useful and greater range to use

- Projectiles. He has a number of projectiles that have different uses and come out randomly. They can be used to distract/kill/pressuring you. Here's a quick tidbit on what projectiles do in his arsenal.

- You can attack waddle dees and waddle doos to refresh your moves. - Waddle Dees do 5%. Waddle Doo's do 7%. Gordo's do 22%.

- A Gordo can kill around 75%.

- Utilt has a hitbox and kills Luigi maybe late 90s %s or early 100%s and also is a anti-air attack tool and can kill!!

- Bair- Used as a general approach espically with RAR-ing. In the air, when he's back turned on you, this will be his main air offensive tool. He can WoP you offstage, can kill
can also combo to different other things, it come's out quick and generally almost has equal range as Luigi's Bair.

Fair - Same concept as Bair can kill at lower %s but is harder to hit with.

Upair/Dair- He swings his hammar above and bottom of him. It does mulitple hits and the last hit does alot of knockback. This will outprioritize when he's above/below you so beware.

- Inhale he likes to do it near edge of the stage espically if hes a stock up, likes to spit you out under a stage so that you'll be unable to recover or gimp you on the way back or just commit suicide if he's at high %s.

Upb - It has great vertical height, can spike you if your below him, and can kill badly.

- other random facts.

If a D3 really good D3 is falling, with his back to you, don't sidestep anticipating a Bair. He may mindgame you be doing a reverse inhale. Just shield, which will allow you to react as needed.

If you prefer to counter D3's UpB, jump and counter him in midair. It will probably cause him to challenge you more, and if he cancels, you'll have all the time that he needs to fall to recover from your counter.

Let's get this thing started.

As you know, D3's like to ftilt to space themselves. You can just SH to avoid all means and still do a Dair to Fair or just a lone Fair to keep yourself abit distanced. You can Fair his projectiles cept the Gordo. In this match, you'll have to rely on Luigi's defense because D3's will want you to go on the offensive so they can bust out the infinite on you.

Eventually you'll probably get infinited once or twice but as soon as you break free plan quickly on your next attack because you'll likely to be ko'd depending at what %s you are at.

Spacing is critically cruical in this matchup. You don't want to get shieldgrabbed or else that infinite will happen. Note that, D3's will like to mix up their grab game such as Dthrow to a Fsmash or dash attack to catch you off guard. Don't get into a spotdodge wars because you'll lose at that. His Fsmash has somewhat hard to punish because even if you have spotdodged it, it'll still leave a lil earthquake even behind him as well.

Your approach game is also cut in half as well because Ftilt/Dtilt clanks with Tornado.
So you'll want to do a SH fireball approach or a Dair to Nair approach to start off your combos. Also if hes throwing projectiles are you, you can always crawl your way to him and land a Dtilt on him and hopefully get a trip. But beware of doing Nairs because their easily shieldgrabbed. A utilt juggle is a great way to start racking up damage due to his immense fat weight, hes a fastfaller and it gives you a quick 30%-40% unless they jumped out of it.

As for fighting D3 offstage, don't try to gimp him. That's one of his best ablilties. He's a heavy weight, fastfaller, with alot of jumps and a huge vertical recovery that spikes you. D3's players will probably inhale you, spit you out offstage and will get ready for some aggressive gimping on you. They will usually WoP Bair you until your unable to recover or ko you OR they'll use a Fair to deal some big whooping damage since it has alot of knockback and damage but hard to land at times. If D3 spits you out, get ready for a charged green missle and aim for sweetspot edge. Another good quicktidbit is that if you land a misfire, and hit them towards the stage, it'll be a stage spike and a guratted ko espically in FD. Also, when your recovering with a rising tornado, since D3 is big for his fata*s, he'll be caught easily and be sent to a offstage angle forcing him all his jumps and his huge vertical height upb which will give you a opunnity to punish him. When your getting WoP Bair'd him, don't try to fight him but try to DI away from him since you'll have alot of space for it.

Di-ing away from D3 is very cruical. If your falling and hes right below him, don't try to challenge him with a Dair because his uptilt has a hitbox and can at moderately at 90%s or 100%s. They will try to mindgame you with their upb in either trying to land onto the stage or cancel it and grabbing on the edge. Dash dance to keep them guessing and yourself active will work as well. When he lands, there will be stars next to him damaging you so becareful of spotdodging that.

Try attacking D3 behind him so that you won't be shieldgrabbed and get infinite'd. Combo-ing him is alot easier, but his Nair can sometimes break it. Whenever I fight D3s, I try to get into a Dair to Nair , utilts and upair combo so I can rack up damage lighting fast or I'll try to get behind him or spotdodge and starting utilt ing him like no tomrrow.

To point of this, if you can handle a really offensive Mk player, then you can handle D3 as well because you'll want to be on the defensive side. If you can be patient too, space all your attacks as if your fighting a Marth's Fair, you'll be fine.

Camping, punishing, openings for a combos and patience will let you win in this matchup. Argueably D3 could be the 2nd or 3rd hardest matchup for Luigi since it out prioritizes him in almost everything and that he has a infinite on Luigi.

As for counterpicks, I'd like to pick probably a Lylat Cruise to mess up infinties, Battlefield for combos and avoiding projectiles, sometimes Luigi's mansion can help but can be tricky since it's known to be cave of life meaning D3 could live up to like 300%.

Click to expand...

Things to have in mind while playing against D3:

Vayseth said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

Let me do some explaining here:

I play against some of the best Luigi players in the midwest in Sandwhich and TheMann. What I have noticed when I play against Luigi that his game involves a lot of constant pressure and comboing. Also, Luigi's key feature is his FAST aerials and his relatively low lag. However, Luigi does not really approach on the ground, he approaches in the air because of his aerials. His ground game is not super good, but his down B can get him in and out quickly for some quick pokes.

All of this together gives Dedede MANY opportunities for shield grabs. As a Luigi player, you need to be EXTREMELY careful as to not get shield grabbed, because this will start the infinite. However, you also have to watch out because if you're just floating around in front of him, you will likely be in up tilt range. That's what should be going on in a King Dedede main's head. The luigi player really only has two options and that is throw fireballs from midrange or approach with quick aerials. Both of which can quickly change into King Dedede's favor.

Key information on the infinite:

Ankoku and I originally did a lot of research on this infinite and he came to the conclusion that the "stale moves list" only has 9 moves in it maximum. Here's how that applies to King Dedede:

With Mario, Luigi, and Samus for some reason after 5 consecutive down throws, the move stales and King Dedede is not able to regrab them. With Samus and Mario, however, they can be regular chain grabbed afterwards, which usually leads to an easy zero to 70% combo in addition to an edge guarding attempt. Luigi players are lucky in the sense that Luigi slides all over the place and prevents King Dedede from chain grabbing him regularly so he can't follow up. This is where the stale moves list comes in...

If I do 5 consecutive throws, you break out between the 5th and the 6th throw. However, a grab attack (Dedede's head butt) also counts as a move in the stale move list. Look at these possible stale move lists:

1. down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw

You will break out automatically after the 5th throw

2. down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw

Here's 9 moves in the stale move list alternating a punch and a down throw. Since the next move would be a punch the next stale move list would read:

punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch

Since there are NEVER more than 5 down throws in the stale move list if you add in a punch between each throw, the move will never stale and it is an infinite.

As far as being able to get out at early percents goes, in smash you are naturally more and more unable to break out of throws the higher your percent is at. So, at 0% you can break out RIGHT after a punch where by 50% a punch is nearly guaranteed if the King Dedede player buffers in the punch after the grab. Which means they can infinite you starting at around 50%. That's why the infinite is so good and so hard to break out of.

I hope that helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mr. Game and Watch

30:70

matchup analysis said:

Analysis:

G&W:

• Disjointed hit boxes which makes Luigi's approaches unreliable.
• Powerful KO moves which can kill early on in the game.
• G&W has a solid edge guarding game against Luigi.
• If G&W gets caught in one of Luigi's "combo's" he can escape them by using his up-b.

Luigi strat's:

• Play defensively and watch for flaws in spacing that the G&W user might be doing, if spotted punish there. (This is assuming there are flaws in their spacing.)
• Recover intelligently as a G&W can edge guard Luigi pretty well.
• Try to get early kills, they are your best bet, G&W can't shield your jab> up-b so if you are able to get in range that early kill can give you a very good advantage. Fsmash also kills around 75%.

A2ZOMG said:

G&W is a pretty hard counter to Luigi. I personally think the matchup is around 7/3 in G&W's favor, if not worse.

The only reasonably safe thing Luigi can do in this matchup is fireball camp, which unfortunately is not close to unstoppable. If the G&W is dumb and Buckets a fireball at a KO percent, that is an opportunity to get him with a sliding Smash.

Luigi lacks ANY approach on G&W. EVERYTHING, including the Tornado gets shut down by a G&W that spaces B-airs and D-tilts intelligently. His aerials in general outspace your kill moves very effectively. Now, a lack of approach wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that Luigi has poor out of shield options. Without spot on powershielding on Luigi's part, G&W's D-air and F-air start becoming safer attacks due to Luigi getting pushed back away a lot. Oddly enough, Luigi's low traction does not save his shield from being worn down by the B-air, but even if you shield the entire thing, you don't have fast enough kill moves with which to punish it (unless he spaces the B-air REALLY badly and lands right next to you in which case you can Up-B out of shield).

Offstage, G&W is one of those characters who edgeguards Luigi very effectively. He can easily chase you down and hit you out of your recovery moves with his aerials, many of which are very capable of KOing. His D-air denies you access from the ledge, and the F-air can really screw up missile recoveries.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

ROB

55:45

​

hippiedude92 said:

Well I promised I'd give at least some input in it. And I gotta stop being lazy so I'll give it a shot. I don't face good Robs sadly but there's few obvious facts that's been said already >.>.

The first thing on the beginning of the match, will be either a lazer ro your face or a charging up gyro or charging up and throw it immediately. It's usually the 2nd or 3rd option. The most problematic matchup is approaching here. If Rob or you approach, you'll eat unnesscary %.

If he throws the gyro, obviously take it because it'll cut his projectile game in half, and giving yours a temporily boost. And for your stupidity, do not throw it as soon as you get it. Make openings with fireballs, and learn how to glide toss with the gyro. Gliding toss luigi gives sexy results, he slides far and can lead to possible shoryukens, upsmashs and other stuff.

If you have to approach without the gyro and if he has it in his possession, just simply throw fireballs, SH aerials or empty SHs, or Z-catch it (I'm pretty sure luigi can Z-catch a item as well with no lag what so ever, get at me this later tho). Gyro's can be easily caught, but of course watch out for Rob's glide toss as it leads to things like Fsmashs. So again, just go with fireballs, well spaced Bairs and suprising tornados as it will wreck their spotdodge game. Rob's ftilt is the most problematic one since its what I believe disjointed, his best ground game spacer, and outranges everything luigi has on the ground and possible on the air. Tornado approach clank with his ftilt. Rob's won't keep ftilt forever though. Remember creativity will help you work inside Rob's range. Once your inside you'll rack up damage very quick.


Rob's approach option's actually suck. The only reliable approach option is either Fair or well placed Nair. You can shield his double Fair if he does it or do a upsmash OOS. Just make sure you watch out if he has a gyro. In general, both luigi and rob just have about near the same approach options.

I'll discuss offstage since it's abit easier to summarize. Few thing's though. Force rob to use fuel. If he recovers high, juggle trap, follow DI, airchase him down/use rising tornado if it's safe. What I find helpful is Bair stage spikes completely wreck him. Places like BF and final destination prove useful here. Your Bair is about equal or near outrange his Fair (I'm not completely sure but I know Mario's Bair trades off hits with his FAir so I'm assuming luigi's will be the same as well.) if he's at a correct distance he'll have a lazer and a gyro so becareful of that. WAlls of pain actually work here if you do manage to get him far if he doesn't DI properly. Fireballs partially help here too. Sometimes tornado gimps/stage spikes also hurt him. Just be aggressive offstage just don't get below him or else you'll get spiked.

As for luigi getting hit offstage it's abit trouble some too. Gyros/Lazers mess up your wreck recovery. He has a DAir spikes, and his other petty aerials. He can stage spike you too. The first thing you'll want to see is what he'll do and his habits. If he likes to shoot gyros/lazers, airdodge it that's if espically your very high offstage. Mix up on aiming for the sweetspot edge with your green missle, and slightly on the stage because he can dair spike you. If they actually go offstage, 50% of the time you'll land a tornado gimp on the way back depending on how reckless or open they are. Rob has slightly the advantage (IMO) when luigi's offstage compared to vice versa.

Now for the onstage stuff. Quick few tidbits. Rob's are known for spotdodging to dsmashs. This however can be avoided. You won't eat the full damage of a dsmash if you DI up (hold the C-stick and control stick up). Here's the vid on DI incase you need help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy...e=channel_page (it's 2:02 for DIing out of the dsmash). I'm pretty sure you can DI out of his upair as well too.
oh and the dsmash is quick as a spotdodge, so you can spotdodge it too.

Once your inside his range. Luigi can take over this matchup. All your regular combos should work and getting him in the air is a no problem. His best GTFO moves are spotdodge+dsmash, Fsmash for the kills, Dtilts for the trips and that's about it. Jab Dthrows, follow DI/bait airdodge works wonders. If he decides to use a aerial, most likely it'll be a Nair which has start up lag so you can shield that. Dair Nair still works wonder just becareful in getting shield grabbed. Spaced bairs work. You must note that Rob's blind spots are from below and slightly behind him. These are spots where luigi highly excels. Upair strings to Nairs rack up damage very quickly. Utilt juggles to around a decent 30%.

Rob has ftilt range, But rob can't do much when luigi's inside him. But when rob spaces he'll ****. Shoryuken's kill rob at 53% no DI, a non angled Fsmash kills rob at 101% no di, up angled fsmash kills at 85%, 123% kills with Nair,reverse upsmash kills at 110%. I'm pretty lazy to find out rob's killing power and options and I can't find rob's frame data to see if luigi's jab and his nair comes out faster than his spotdodge and dsmash but its w/e.

I find this match up around 55:45 in luigi's favor or at best 60:40 for luigi. Rob rules the ground game and slightly offstage, and luigi for his kill options/power (still needs to be finalized between rob and luigi but i think its luigis favor), fast racking up damage game, and air game.

Click to expand...

Marth

25:75

Marth's favor

(working on matchup analysis)

image credit to MidnightRider from deviantart.​

matchup analysis said:

This box will be used for matchup analysis.

Click to expand...

Diddy Kong

60:40

matchup analysis said:

...

Click to expand...

Zero Suit Samus

50:50

matchup analysis said:

...

Click to expand...

Wario

##:##

​

cr4sh said:

As obnoxious as this sounds, even to me. Really your best strategy against these two characters is to use someone else. Luigi gets beyond ***** in both of these matchups.

For a bit of seriousness., in case someone really does want to use luigi against them.

MK: Fireball your *** off. It's your only safe move. Everything else you do is completely outclassed by pretty much MK's entire arsenal. Uair will get a bit of mileage, but it still loses to his dair. Keep your distance if you can, sheild his tornado, and angle your shield up. Otherwise, hope is your best friend.

D3: don't get grabbed. If you get grabbed by a good ddd, you pretty much lose. If for some reason the ddd doesn't know how to infinite you, just **** him. Luigi really has his way with d3 as long as you can get past the 'dees. Take him on like you would a bowser or a dk, except without the fireball spam. Tornado or aerial in, pop them up into the air, and abuse the hell out of them there.

Click to expand...

As for MK, fireball is good but it's, unfortunately, not safe. Why? Thx to his Mach Tornado. (If he were Yoshi, MK would be saying, "Fireballs Yum!". I would recommend watching Boss's most recent match against Forte to have an idea of how to face off against him.

cr4sh said:

Otherwise, hope is your best friend.

Click to expand...

That^ and mindgames QFT.

As for D3, yea pretty much don't get grabbed, but you know if you DI away and mash both analog's, C and analog, you can release from it right? Either way, not getting grabbed is a good procedure.

Edit:

@Pompi: Lol we posted at the same time.

But your right what really kills Luigi against D3 is his so called "infinite" but as you say it can be escaped with right timing.

Hippiedude92

Along with what I've got to say with D3.

Luigi's things he has.

- Can juggle with utilts easily from 0-40%
- Can combo him easily due to his fat size
- Has greater ground game mobility (edit: I'm actually might take this out)
- Can punish D3's mistakes espically with a shoryuken
- Has a projectile
- Has great recovery but can't gimp very well on the way back to stage as D3's

D3's things he has.

- Can live longer due to his immense big weight
- Has variety of projectiles that can distract/actually kill by surprise
- Has infinite but can't CG
- Multiple jumps and a huge vertical recovery
- Can edgeguard very easily and has nasty tricks on Luigi
- Ftilt/Dtilt shuts down ground-game approachs and espically with Tornado
- Has alot of grab range
- Easily punishs Luigi if not careful espically with Fair/Bair/Uptilt/sometimes a dash attack when you least expect it


This match is all about Luigi's defense vs D3's offense. Sooner or later it'll go to Luigi's offense vs D3's defense but take note you must be extremely careful and patient in handling your offense against him because he can inhale you and suicide.
D3's main tools on stage will be Ftilts, (shuts down ground game along with Dtilt), projectiles, grabs, shield grabs. Luigi's main tools on stages is Ftilt tornado, fireball, shield grabs, Bairs. In this match D3 has a better favor than yours. Luigi players will fear getting grabbed espically the infinite. Let's take a indepth look what D3's moves can do

- Ftilt is a great spacing tool. It shuts down ground game approachs, it clanks with your tornado approach and is sometimes followed up from a dthrow to mix up their grab game.

-Dtilt works the same as Ftilt but Ftilt is more useful and greater range to use

- Projectiles. He has a number of projectiles that have different uses and come out randomly. They can be used to distract/kill/pressuring you. Here's a quick tidbit on what projectiles do in his arsenal.

- You can attack waddle dees and waddle doos to refresh your moves. - Waddle Dees do 5%. Waddle Doo's do 7%. Gordo's do 22%.

- A Gordo can kill around 75%.

- Utilt has a hitbox and kills Luigi maybe late 90s %s or early 100%s and also is a anti-air attack tool and can kill!!

- Bair- Used as a general approach espically with RAR-ing. In the air, when he's back turned on you, this will be his main air offensive tool. He can WoP you offstage, can kill
can also combo to different other things, it come's out quick and generally almost has equal range as Luigi's Bair.

Fair - Same concept as Bair can kill at lower %s but is harder to hit with.

Upair/Dair- He swings his hammar above and bottom of him. It does mulitple hits and the last hit does alot of knockback. This will outprioritize when he's above/below you so beware.

- Inhale he likes to do it near edge of the stage espically if hes a stock up, likes to spit you out under a stage so that you'll be unable to recover or gimp you on the way back or just commit suicide if he's at high %s.

Upb - It has great vertical height, can spike you if your below him, and can kill badly.

- other random facts.

If a D3 really good D3 is falling, with his back to you, don't sidestep anticipating a Bair. He may mindgame you be doing a reverse inhale. Just shield, which will allow you to react as needed.

If you prefer to counter D3's UpB, jump and counter him in midair. It will probably cause him to challenge you more, and if he cancels, you'll have all the time that he needs to fall to recover from your counter.

Let's get this thing started.

As you know, D3's like to ftilt to space themselves. You can just SH to avoid all means and still do a Dair to Fair or just a lone Fair to keep yourself abit distanced. You can Fair his projectiles cept the Gordo. In this match, you'll have to rely on Luigi's defense because D3's will want you to go on the offensive so they can bust out the infinite on you.

Eventually you'll probably get infinited once or twice but as soon as you break free plan quickly on your next attack because you'll likely to be ko'd depending at what %s you are at.

Spacing is critically cruical in this matchup. You don't want to get shieldgrabbed or else that infinite will happen. Note that, D3's will like to mix up their grab game such as Dthrow to a Fsmash or dash attack to catch you off guard. Don't get into a spotdodge wars because you'll lose at that. His Fsmash has somewhat hard to punish because even if you have spotdodged it, it'll still leave a lil earthquake even behind him as well.

Your approach game is also cut in half as well because Ftilt/Dtilt clanks with Tornado.
So you'll want to do a SH fireball approach or a Dair to Nair approach to start off your combos. Also if hes throwing projectiles are you, you can always crawl your way to him and land a Dtilt on him and hopefully get a trip. But beware of doing Nairs because their easily shieldgrabbed. A utilt juggle is a great way to start racking up damage due to his immense fat weight, hes a fastfaller and it gives you a quick 30%-40% unless they jumped out of it.

As for fighting D3 offstage, don't try to gimp him. That's one of his best ablilties. He's a heavy weight, fastfaller, with alot of jumps and a huge vertical recovery that spikes you. D3's players will probably inhale you, spit you out offstage and will get ready for some aggressive gimping on you. They will usually WoP Bair you until your unable to recover or ko you OR they'll use a Fair to deal some big whooping damage since it has alot of knockback and damage but hard to land at times. If D3 spits you out, get ready for a charged green missle and aim for sweetspot edge. Another good quicktidbit is that if you land a misfire, and hit them towards the stage, it'll be a stage spike and a guratted ko espically in FD. Also, when your recovering with a rising tornado, since D3 is big for his fata*s, he'll be caught easily and be sent to a offstage angle forcing him all his jumps and his huge vertical height upb which will give you a opunnity to punish him. When your getting WoP Bair'd him, don't try to fight him but try to DI away from him since you'll have alot of space for it.

Di-ing away from D3 is very cruical. If your falling and hes right below him, don't try to challenge him with a Dair because his uptilt has a hitbox and can at moderately at 90%s or 100%s. They will try to mindgame you with their upb in either trying to land onto the stage or cancel it and grabbing on the edge. Dash dance to keep them guessing and yourself active will work as well. When he lands, there will be stars next to him damaging you so becareful of spotdodging that.

Try attacking D3 behind him so that you won't be shieldgrabbed and get infinite'd. Combo-ing him is alot easier, but his Nair can sometimes break it. Whenever I fight D3s, I try to get into a Dair to Nair , utilts and upair combo so I can rack up damage lighting fast or I'll try to get behind him or spotdodge and starting utilt ing him like no tomrrow.

To point of this, if you can handle a really offensive Mk player, then you can handle D3 as well because you'll want to be on the defensive side. If you can be patient too, space all your attacks as if your fighting a Marth's Fair, you'll be fine.

Camping, punishing, openings for a combos and patience will let you win in this matchup. Argueably D3 could be the 2nd or 3rd hardest matchup for Luigi since it out prioritizes him in almost everything and that he has a infinite on Luigi.

As for counterpicks, I'd like to pick probably a Lylat Cruise to mess up infinties, Battlefield for combos and avoiding projectiles, sometimes Luigi's mansion can help but can be tricky since it's known to be cave of life meaning D3 could live up to like 300%.

I'd give this matchup a 9.5/10 all in D3's favor however this matchup is not impossible for luigi to win

Click to expand...

jehonaker said:

If it wasn't for the infinite, Luigi could muster a neutral or better on Dedede. Being a big target lets Luigi get in for Fire Jump Punch easier than against some characters, and Luigi has a great aerial game in relation to his.
Dedede can start the grab easily, though, and he has the disjointed hitboxes Luigi hates to let him try and get in the grab.
I may be off, but I'd call it 35:65.

Meta Knight is worse because of his disjointed hitboxes and speed. And Mach Tornado...Luigi doesn't have a way to stop it, from what I've seen. It seems that it becomes hit-and-run for Luigi, who waits for a chance to smash or Fire Jump Punch Meta Knight while dropping Fireballs, aerials (does neutral aerial outprioritize Meta Knight's aerials?), and light hits.
It's pretty ugly...30:70, I'd say.

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

nash dont take this as hate but ddd has an infinite against luigi i doubt he will dthrow to ftilt when he can simply continue grabbing, but yeah youre right fire punch ***** d3 because its just too easy to land, if not try playing a d3 online , youll see what i mean

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

nash dont take this as hate but ddd has an infinite against luigi i doubt he will dthrow to ftilt when he can simply continue grabbing, but yeah youre right fire punch ***** d3 because its just too easy to land, if not try playing a d3 online , youll see what i mean

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

yeah its true hippie they have to refresh , thats why they use grab attack to help with the stale but my point being , i dont know a single d3 who doesnt use the infinite , even noobs do i being ad3 noob myself.

yeah he can and should always mix the grab game , and thats when we have and i cant stress this enough, luigi > d3 (infiniteless) , try to approach him unpredictably , otherwise outcamp him (easier said than done) d3 cant approach. Watch out for his ftilt that sucker has some range, otherwise he is slow, dont be afraid of d3s but is ok to hate mks

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

probably most ppl didnt :S you can always try and mindgame d3s since they react slow a wrong move can mean shoryuken, or u angled fmash, or whatever you can think of , try to take advantage of his slow speed.

Click to expand...

Zephramrill said:

Dunno if you guys are familiar with super grab escaping, but the ness and lucas boards discovered that the best way to button mash a grab release is to rotate your control stick while flicking the c-stick. The infinite is a real pain so I hope that helps.

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

i didnt either , any kind of help against the infinite helps , also please do not play shadow moses island against d3 , he can just ifinite you against a wall until he can kill you with a u throw, on the other hand you can bair WoP but still... We should try playing d3 im on it , its easier to know what players are up to when you kind of do that yourself

Click to expand...

marsulas said:

I also think if you smash di up out of the tornado, you can nair or dair into the top of it, i'll test this tomorrow and get back to you guys on it.

Click to expand...

locuan128 said:

The problem here is getting the D3 into that situation.

Hippie on the D3 not having the infinite part, it would be a bit closer than a 60:40, 55:45 maybe? Still, we can't take out the infinite in the overall analysis.

Of course, it would be wise to mention the infinite at the end, or some ways to get around it, not just post:

"OMG the infinite is so broken Luigi can't do anything" etc.

Click to expand...

ALiAsVee said:

I honestly think one of the best ways to avoid the infinite is to pick stages with a slope, like halbred or yoshi's island. Sometimes the extra angle difference is enough to DI out of the infinite, unless we are talking about his downgrab infinite, in which case, just go with the smallest stage with an angled terrain.

To avoid the the grab altogether, its just a matter of a persistent fireball game that is borderline aggresive but keeps you out of range on the ground, and a super nasty aerial game to keep D3 in the air as long as possible. Honestly, D3 isn't too hard once you get him the air, its easy to pressure him into air dodges that you can punish, and he has some blindspots diagonal above and below him from behind.

When in doubt, you can always punch the guy who is playing D3 when he does an infinite, but I don't think that tournament legal...

Hippie, judging a D3 without infinite is like Meta without the whorenado. Wait, Meta would still pwn Luigi...@_@

Click to expand...

Pompi said:

you should ask a good d3 from the d3 boards

Click to expand...

locuan128 said:

That's quite conclusion for D3 there boss lol.

Also, if you may, I would like to speak to you about the "L-cancel" through PM to evade going off topic in a thread. I have seen your vids and your "applications" but I want to know the theory behind it. So if you can give me your own insight of it through PM, (an insight other than what is written in Alias's thread) , it would be much appreciated.

As you may have seen I am one of the people who thinks the frame difference is so minimal it doesn't make a difference while playing with or without it. (Although I would like to be proven wrong).

Click to expand...