Sonic vs. Tornado/Shuttle Loop

http://www.smashboards.net/showthread.php?t=199464

I honestly don't know why they closed it. The least they could do is give a reason for doing so, even if it's ridiculous.

Let's just continue the discussion.

Seriously.

As to the last point you made in the previous thread, I think that could've definately saved you a lot of hurt. Usually people let up with the tornado spam at least for a while, but DMK was relentless. I guess you should work on SDIing like M2K mentioned in his MK tips thread. if you SDI upward, then I think you should be able to dubsequently land an fair on MK, since its apparently Sonics quickest aerial. Nair might work too, but Fair's hitbox is larger and more likely to hit MK. You hit MK out of a tornado in one of your matches this way.

Also, I don't know if you's scene SonicOrochi's Sonic tutorial, but incase you didn't he honestly gives great advice on the workings of homing attack and how to land it more easily. For any Sonic main who hasn't seen it at isn't too clear on the Homing Attack's tracking properties, it covers an area roughly in the shape of elipse, with more tracking range towards the direction Sonic is facing. It always tries to hit the back of your opponent, so it is much easier to hit an opponent moving away from you than one moving towards you if you are on a roughly horizontal line. So, if you are above tornado, try to DI so that the tornado is moving away from you, when you initiate the Ha or moving with you. Tough I know, but good to keep in mind.

As for shuttle look, its not really a prob, for Sonic. It gets owned by noobish spring plus Dair if you are above MK, and Fair, eats it and glide attack pretty well too.

Napilopez said:

Seriously.

As to the last point you made in the previous thread, I think that could've definately saved you a lot of hurt. Usually people let up with the tornado spam at least for a while, but DMK was relentless. I guess you should work on SDIing like M2K mentioned in his MK tips thread. if you SDI upward, then I think you should be able to dubsequently land an fair on MK, since its apparently Sonics quickest aerial. Nair might work too, but Fair's hitbox is larger and more likely to hit MK. You hit MK out of a tornado in one of your matches this way.

Also, I don't know if you's scene SonicOrochi's Sonic tutorial, but incase you didn't he honestly gives great advice on the workings of homing attack and how to land it more easily. For any Sonic main who hasn't seen it at isn't too clear on the Homing Attack's tracking properties, it covers an area roughly in the shape of elipse, with more tracking range towards the direction Sonic is facing. It always tries to hit the back of your opponent, so it is much easier to hit an opponent moving away from you than one moving towards you if you are on a roughly horizontal line. So, if you are above tornado, try to DI so that the tornado is moving away from you, when you initiate the Ha or moving with you. Tough I know, but good to keep in mind.

As for shuttle look, its not really a prob, for Sonic. It gets owned by noobish spring plus Dair if you are above MK, and Fair, eats it and glide attack pretty well too.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't see any reason why they should have closed the thread. At the LEAST, it was a rate-my-sonic.

I did three notable things against Tornado in a wifi match recently:
1) - I SDI'd upwards out of tornado and knocked him out of it with a U-air done right as soon as I escaped.

I've been paying more attention to the "priority rules", like the 10% rule. (if they're within 10% of each other, they'll clank, but if one deals more than 10% of the other, it will beat it out). So with that said:

2) - Charged F-smash on a rising Tornado. (killed)

3) Spring-cancelled Tornado. At two different points, I got the following results:
- - - Lagnado : it launched him upwards and he him started Tornado late. It kept him in the vulnerable fall state and I F-smashed that mofo for the kill.
- - - Side-B buffer!: This was an old idea I mentioned, but after having pulled it off, I felt really good about it again lol. Basically it takes advantage of player inputs (and I first noticed this offline vs my brother) : the opponent will be spamming forward + [B,B,B,B,B,B...] as he approaches you. IF he hits the spring, it turns into a side-B, and side-B has exploitable ending lag at the final hop afterwards. Of course, I took advantage of it and got another free smash.

On the edge, I actually took M2K's tips to mind that game, and I grabbed him out of an edgehopped shuttle loop and F-air. Be careful of charging ASC when you're near MK in the air. If he up-B's, you're helping MK kill so much earlier.

Tenki said:

Yeah, I didn't see any reason why they should have closed the thread. At the LEAST, it was a rate-my-sonic.

I did three notable things against Tornado in a wifi match recently:
1) - I SDI'd upwards out of tornado and knocked him out of it with a U-air done right as soon as I escaped.

I've been paying more attention to the "priority rules", like the 10% rule. (if they're within 10% of each other, they'll clank, but if one deals more than 10% of the other, it will beat it out). So with that said:

2) - Charged F-smash on a rising Tornado. (killed)

3) Spring-cancelled Tornado. At two different points, I got the following results:
- - - Lagnado : it launched him upwards and he him started Tornado late. It kept him in the vulnerable fall state and I F-smashed that mofo for the kill.
- - - Side-B buffer!: This was an old idea I mentioned, but after having pulled it off, I felt really good about it again lol. Basically it takes advantage of player inputs (and I first noticed this offline vs my brother) : the opponent will be spamming forward + [B,B,B,B,B,B...] as he approaches you. IF he hits the spring, it turns into a side-B, and side-B has exploitable ending lag at the final hop afterwards. Of course, I took advantage of it and got another free smash.

On the edge, I actually took M2K's tips to mind that game, and I grabbed him out of an edgehopped shuttle loop and F-air. Be careful of charging ASC when you're near MK in the air. If he up-B's, you're helping MK kill so much earlier.

Click to expand...

Nice stuff tenk XD

I never thought about that SideB buffer, that would surely be interesting =PP. If I'm understanding right, its kind of how you might take advantage of fsmashing someone after a dair or dtilt, as the person is likely to be holding down, causing downward DI and horizontal deathyness. Except that in this case it involes that directional input being applied to the move changing from one special to another after being hit right?

Hmm I wonder how quickly the spring as a projectile comes out, as opposed to fair. If it comes out quicker, than perhaps its the best option for escaping tornado(I mean, it usually is the best option for escaping anything anyways =P)

EDIT: Only problem with spring though, is that if you are not absolutely directly above MK, the Nado might eat the spring, while MK remains in the center unharmed. Hmm.

Tenki said:

Yeah, I didn't see any reason why they should have closed the thread. At the LEAST, it was a rate-my-sonic.

I did three notable things against Tornado in a wifi match recently:
1) - I SDI'd upwards out of tornado and knocked him out of it with a U-air done right as soon as I escaped.

I've been paying more attention to the "priority rules", like the 10% rule. (if they're within 10% of each other, they'll clank, but if one deals more than 10% of the other, it will beat it out). So with that said:

2) - Charged F-smash on a rising Tornado. (killed)

3) Spring-cancelled Tornado. At two different points, I got the following results:
- - - Lagnado : it launched him upwards and he him started Tornado late. It kept him in the vulnerable fall state and I F-smashed that mofo for the kill.
- - - Side-B buffer!: This was an old idea I mentioned, but after having pulled it off, I felt really good about it again lol. Basically it takes advantage of player inputs (and I first noticed this offline vs my brother) : the opponent will be spamming forward + [B,B,B,B,B,B...] as he approaches you. IF he hits the spring, it turns into a side-B, and side-B has exploitable ending lag at the final hop afterwards. Of course, I took advantage of it and got another free smash.

On the edge, I actually took M2K's tips to mind that game, and I grabbed him out of an edgehopped shuttle loop and F-air. Be careful of charging ASC when you're near MK in the air. If he up-B's, you're helping MK kill so much earlier.

Click to expand...

#'s 1 and 3 actually happened in matches with DMK during winners and the unrecorded matches 6-7 in the Grand Finals.

I was trying to recreate #1, but to no avail, and at the angle he was approaching, I found it hard to set up the up-B, but after I did it once in our regular bracket matches, i realized I can manipulate his movement and punish.

Still, it's hard to do when you face someone who has a certain "skill" with whorenado.

Puffball64 said:

#'s 1 and 3 actually happened in matches with DMK during winners and the unrecorded matches 6-7 in the Grand Finals.

I was trying to recreate #1, but to no avail, and at the angle he was approaching, I found it hard to set up the up-B, but after I did it once in our regular bracket matches, i realized I can manipulate his movement and punish.

Still, it's hard to do when you face someone who has a certain "skill" with whorenado.

Click to expand...

This is true. Djbrowny's frame data has caused controversy, but it should still function perfectly well when it comes to comparing the relative speeds within Sonic's moveset. Fair is Sonic's quickest aerial by one frame compared to nair and uair. Fair is probably your best best as it has quite a nice large hitbox all orund sonics mini-nado-ing body.

Just a quickie:

According to youtube replys to the vids vs. DMK, DMK used a total of:

174 Mach Tornados for the 5 recorded matches. This isn't including tornados that were done when the battery died in match 3, or the memory lacking in match 5, not to mention matches 6-7 went completely unrecorded.

DMK averaged about 34 (rounding down) tornados per match, using the info above. So, by approximation, DMK used about a grand total of:

238 Mach Tornados for the 7 full matches.

Hell, you can even add 102 MORE Mach Tornados, since he beat me 2-1 earlier in the winners bracket.

You can even add 68 MORE from him beating me 2-0 at September's tournament.

vs. DMK three times, two being Best of 3, one being Best of 7, DMK has used tornado against my Sonic approximately...:

408 TIMES

For only 12 matches...408 Mach Tornadoes is ABSURD.

Just...ya know...the more you know.

As a matter of fact, I'm making this a counter in my sig...

And remember, this number could be LARGER, since I included the broken data from matches 3 and 5.

Lolll, haha. Thats more than 11 times per stock O.o. Beast. Beastnado. This clearly means, we have to find the most effective way to counter it, And I'm honestly thnking Homing attack. Even if you can't hit him out all the time, if you can do it so that almost half the time he is hit out, then your opponent will begin to see its not the best option. Fsmash is good, but too hard to space on a tornado that moves around alot.

Do ftilt(angled up) and utilt not work at all? They are both very quick and disjointed, so i would think they might be able to hit MK out...

Also, according to Ulevo's anti-tornado thread, Spin charge can go through it, but its unreliable.

Napilopez said:

Lolll, haha. Thats more than 11 times per stock O.o. Beast. Beastnado. This clearly means, we have to find the most effective way to counter it, And I'm honestly thnking Homing attack. Even if you can't hit him out all the time, if you can do it so that almost half the time he is hit out, then your opponent will begin to see its not the best option. Fsmash is good, but too hard to space on a tornado that moves around alot.

Do ftilt(angled up) and utilt not work at all? They are both very quick and disjointed, so i would think they might be able to hit MK out...

Also, according to Ulevo's anti-tornado thread, Spin charge can go through it, but its unreliable.

Click to expand...

Spin dash went through Hylian's MK back in those videos (the one on Yoshi's Story).

If Snake's utilt only clanks with tornado, I doubt Sonic's tilts would do anything, but it's worth a shot. Honestly though, I think that utilt MIGHT have a change, but it's very low.

I did spin charge several times, and it never succeeded, so I doubt that's correct.

Anything from above works, obviously. The problem is getting up there to do it while the MK is spinning and moving all over the place.

Perhaps we should try bringing him down instead of making ourselves go up?

That would be what the Up-B spring setup would be for...

Well Ulevo did rate the Spin Charge as only one star out of three, because its unreliable. I would guess it only works unstale, from close distances, and if the tornado is on the ground. He did alot of testing so I doubt that utilt/ftilt would stop it, but hey, you never know.

lawl that is alot

Hehe it is indeed. Over 11 nados per stock, geez... =P.

Hmm. SideBinvincy frames vs nado. I can imagine invincy frames working just fine towards the bottom of the nado, where it is thinnest, but its invincy frames/high priority does not last long enough I believe to go through the wider part of the nado.

Hmm. can Mk be footstooled out of Nado? Then for example, one can use invincy frames against the top of the nado, get into the middle where the hurtbox is, then footstool MK out of his nado, looll.

Napilopez said:

Hehe it is indeed. Over 11 nados per stock, geez... =P.

Hmm. SideBinvincy frames vs nado. I can imagine invincy frames working just fine towards the bottom of the nado, where it is thinnest, but its invincy frames/high priority does not last long enough I believe to go through the wider part of the nado.

Hmm. can Mk be footstooled out of Nado? Then for example, one can use invincy frames against the top of the nado, get into the middle where the hurtbox is, then footstool MK out of his nado, looll.

Click to expand...

He can be footstooled during, but he will not just plop on the ground. The tornado animation would just continue, unless somehow the sideB hits him on the way into the nado.

im telling you guys... its not hard lol.



if he starts a tornado, start charging a fmash and aim it upwards.... if he comes at you, release accordingly... if he releases, release fsmash..


if he is too close for u to start charging F smash, start jumping as soon as u see tornado, and prepare to get atleast 1 character space higher than him and use ASC. UP-B, or possible HA or bair...

(all depending on where mk goes in relation to ur position)


also another good option. if u have it, sheild the tornado... it helps dull it for when u actually do get hit by it. (which u probly will vs spammers)


EDIT: the footstool. YES! just another supporting thing that sonic needs to be above tornado to counter it for the most part. Sonic's footstool can help u avoid it if nothign else.

unrelated note: If sonic is in danger of being hit by G&w's up smash, u can footstool him to avoid it, even if he times it right.

Assuming that Tornado still follows the 10% rule, if you do an attack 11%+, you should be able to clang with it without your attack being stopped. You should use a move that can reach his hitbox though - there are tons of tiny attackboxes that you can clang with that surround his hitbox, but if you really wanna beat the nado, you'd have to use a move that outdamages it and hits at least bottom-center- at least, that's where I nailed those F-smashes that killed the MK I played against.

R4ZE said:

also another good option. if u have it, sheild the tornado... it helps dull it for when u actually do get hit by it. (which u probly will vs spammers)

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by dulling it, since shield doesn't count in stale moves, AFAIK.

btw R4ZE, I tried your idea again, I had an up-tilted F-smash and I got another dropping glide-attack on my face. Thanks.

=.=;

I'm going to be an ass and ask why DMK made it to the finals with that MK.

edit: Good shit though, Puffball.

Tenki said:

Assuming that Tornado still follows the 10% rule, if you do an attack 11%+, you should be able to clang with it without your attack being stopped. You should use a move that can reach his hitbox though - there are tons of tiny attackboxes that you can clang with that surround his hitbox, but if you really wanna beat the nado, you'd have to use a move that outdamages it and hits at least bottom-center- at least, that's where I nailed those F-smashes that killed the MK I played against.

Click to expand...

So the best thing to do when facing a tornado would be to charge an F-Smash and try to get it to reach his body?

Sounds easy enough.

Teh Umby said:

I'm going to be an ass and ask why DMK made it to the finals with that MK.

edit: Good shit though, Puffball.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

And I think he got there because:

1. He fought scrubs who couldn't get through the tornado using Snake/Meta Knight
2. He did beat me once during the winners bracket, so that explains one advance.

It really is lame, and his excuse for doing it is even moreso:

DMK said:

Sonic is so **** weak against it. You can't NOT do it.

Click to expand...

That makes TOTAL sense. I mean, I only almost took his *** out TWICE.

I hope Meta Knight gets banned, just so I can see him squirm.

Speaking of Tornados. Bait that shit. Sometimes it's just cool to relax for a second, Spin Dash Cancel, and punish the invitable Tornado used to counter.

Teh Umby said:

Speaking of Tornados. Bait that shit. Sometimes it's just cool to relax for a second, Spin Dash Cancel, and punish the invitable Tornado used to counter.

Click to expand...

That's something I've been considering. But first, we need to find some sort of approach to the nado that nets us more profit.

Besides approaching from above, and from what Tenki said, nothing else seems to work.

I'm even considering just completely running away from it when it is spammed.

Seems one of the best ways I've seen from numerous videos is just to eat it, SDI up, and attack out of that.

Fair works well against shuttle loop. Not positive, but I'd assume nair would too, since it has a lingering hitbox. Shuttle Loop makes Sonic look like he has priority.

Against SHUTTLE LOOP, Phoenix? Are you sure?

DMK is garbage.
Mashing B =/= Skill.

I would've forward smashed him IRL if he'd played against me in the finals like that.

Your Sonic is awesome btw Puffball.

I think we need to do some simple testing. How about 2 Sonic mains get together on WiFi, and one of them picks MK. The MK spams Nado, all day, with a few things to refresh the move. Test out all these suggested methods, and see which are the most effective in different situations.

And yea pheonix, are you sure sure you don't mean glide attack? Cuz I mena, you won't even have time to react to the shuttle loop...

Phoenix_Dark said:

Fair works well against shuttle loop. Not positive, but I'd assume nair would too, since it has a lingering hitbox. Shuttle Loop makes Sonic look like he has priority.

Click to expand...

Teh Umby said:

Against SHUTTLE LOOP, Phoenix? Are you sure?

Click to expand...

There's a vid somewhere and PD does F-air and knocks MK out of shuttle loop. I think, personally, it's more of what M2K mentioned with attacking/approaching a shuttle-loop user - attack from above and DI upwards in case you get hit.

He was directly above the MK and the MK did an aerial shuttle loop and got caught inside the F-air.

Puffball64 said:

#'s 1 and 3 actually happened in matches with DMK during winners and the unrecorded matches 6-7 in the Grand Finals.

I was trying to recreate #1, but to no avail, and at the angle he was approaching, I found it hard to set up the up-B, but after I did it once in our regular bracket matches, i realized I can manipulate his movement and punish.

Still, it's hard to do when you face someone who has a certain "skill" with whorenado.

Click to expand...

I saw you pull the SDI>aerial with B-air. Cool stuff.

I saw you do a 1-2 wind F-smash and knock him out of a low Tornado too.

I did notice that instant dash attacks (tap forward, C-stick down) do pretty well at catching "between tornado" lag. This really bad MK had asked on AiB "how to beat a Sonic with Metaknight" and I told him that Tornado eats spindash approaches. lmao you'd wonder why a MK would ask that. And I realized it was because he wanted to beat me cause he had lost to me previously XD.

In one of our rounds, I racked 80%+ on him just hitting him between and/or after tornados. Assuming that spamming B button will eventually start tornados ASAP, I think IDA's might be decent for screwing their momentum. Just keep in mind that if you hit with the middle of the dash attack, you might want to shield right away, whereas you might be able to attack normally if you hit him with the end of the dash attack.


Also, I've watched the vs DMK matches 1-3 so far and noticed something:
You get 'camped' (poorly) when you do spring. He baits spring and moves away from it + towards your predicted landing spot (he didn't predict too well most of the time) and most of the time you'd get caught by it.

Wondering "why did he get me when I was doing D-air right above him!?!"? Well, part of the reason is the 'lag cancel' of the D-air. If you delay the timing like normal, you usually get a 'lagless' landing, right? Well, as we should know by now, that's because the attack finishes. Sometimes, you'd do the D-air as though you were going for a lagless landing, and it'd finish and just fastfall you straight into the nado.

That's no good.

The other part is that, like I said, he was camping your landing spot assuming you'd "instantly" do a D-air out of spring. IMO it might be better to just normal fall > fastfall as his tornado is ending. Or do a delayed D-air (move backwards to bait him in, then D-air [stall>fall forward] when he starts to retreat).

I understand if you got flustered lol. I played against someone online by the name of God (lol.. and he played MK). He said he's played dNES before, and said something about me using springs alot more while dNES used more spin specials. I was kinda shocked a bit because at the time, I definitely overused spin specials, and I realized that when I was getting pressured, I was doing waaay too much spring> D-air (and D-airs aimed to land on the tornado).

running from tornado and going for a shff b-air was cool.

Yeah, I meant exactly what I said. Shuttle Loop has **** priority. Hell, it gets canceled out by a spring drop, lol.

I would ahve just stood away from him and baited the tornado and Fsmashed him repeatedly.

Also for the shuttle loop the initial frames are invincible so you have to be above its starting frames or you'll get hit

I thought it was only invincible on certain frames. Pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Edit: Yeah, he's only invincible on frame 5.

Yep right on the initial.
i think after halfway up his priority drops

You wouldn't be stopping it with fairs in the initial part anyways. If you're getting hit by that, you're either on the ground, or way too close to him in the air. If you're that close in the air, you should be airdodging through him anyways. Most of the time when MK is going to go for Shuttle Loop KO, you're going to be above him. If they're predictable, punish that ****.

yeah I prefer using the Dair actually. I was playing Raven and I brought out a Dair. he smacked into it and died off the top screen.

Lol, nice. I guess as long as you have your up b still, that's safe to do. Fair star KO's are the funniest thing ever though.

DMK reputation is going all the way down the drain after watching this. lol. He deserves not to be respected as a smasher. I wouldnt say hate MK though, hate the player. I was just wondering if it was possible if homing attack can get through tornado. Although I know it may be situational. I already know how to get away from tornado spam... ledge camp, MK will stop spamming tornado from the fear of him free falling over the ledge, sure he might stop spamming MT and start edgeguarding you from there, but as soon as he does, ledge hop up-air for Sonic seems to have never failed me from getting hit out of an edgehog, then whenever the MK spams tornado, use Sonics speed to run to the ledge and camp there. MK's tornado can't keep up with Sonic's speed obviously.

Tenki said:

I did notice that instant dash attacks (tap forward, C-stick down) do pretty well at catching "between tornado" lag. This really bad MK had asked on AiB "how to beat a Sonic with Metaknight" and I told him that Tornado eats spindash approaches. lmao you'd wonder why a MK would ask that. And I realized it was because he wanted to beat me cause he had lost to me previously XD.

Also, I've watched the vs DMK matches 1-3 so far and noticed something:
You get 'camped' (poorly) when you do spring. He baits spring and moves away from it + towards your predicted landing spot (he didn't predict too well most of the time) and most of the time you'd get caught by it.

Wondering "why did he get me when I was doing D-air right above him!?!"? Well, part of the reason is the 'lag cancel' of the D-air. If you delay the timing like normal, you usually get a 'lagless' landing, right? Well, as we should know by now, that's because the attack finishes. Sometimes, you'd do the D-air as though you were going for a lagless landing, and it'd finish and just fastfall you straight into the nado.

That's no good.

The other part is that, like I said, he was camping your landing spot assuming you'd "instantly" do a D-air out of spring. IMO it might be better to just normal fall > fastfall as his tornado is ending. Or do a delayed D-air (move backwards to bait him in, then D-air [stall>fall forward] when he starts to retreat).

I understand if you got flustered lol. I played against someone online by the name of God (lol.. and he played MK). He said he's played dNES before, and said something about me using springs alot more while dNES used more spin specials. I was kinda shocked a bit because at the time, I definitely overused spin specials, and I realized that when I was getting pressured, I was doing waaay too much spring> D-air (and D-airs aimed to land on the tornado).

Click to expand...

The bolded part is awesome, btw.

I'll see if I can beat him to the punch then. I think maybe once in those rounds, I hit DMK before he actually initiated the physical tornado, but didn't really catch on too well about how.

I realized that my spring->dair was getting punished halfway through the matches. If you notice, I start reverse spring->dair to get away more often in the later matches, since most of the time the spring would help me.

I tried mixing up which direction I would dair, but that tornado just makes it impossible to dair toward him without him goofing to the bluff/feint.

I also know why my dairs wouldn't hit of whatnot. The point of them was mainly to get to the ground as fast as possible to run from the nado spam.

Problem with regular and fast falling after spring, I tried them in earlier matches, and it just didn't cut it. He'd just nado anyways, and since I'm a sitting duck in the air vs. a nado as Sonic, all I could do is try to airdodge away, then take in some damage.

btw, I know who God is:

We played quite often Online at dNES' website www.onlinebrawlcommunity.com. I'd always mop the floor with him in tournaments. He's too predictable.

The counter I want to experiment with the most would be the charging F-Smash, and Spring setup, as both seem very plausible and easy to set up during the scenarios.

Experiment with spring (facing away from MK) followed by a dair to quickly get back down (without landing lag/hitting spring). Probably works best on edges when MK is recovering. You can spring as he's coming towards you. May even disrupt him into doing a >b special instead as Tenki said. The >b is extremely easy to punish as Sonic.

Great matches puffball! Someone is learning the pivot cancels. LoL, (-God-) and thanks for the ad

EDIT: Oh... how about this

Shield... as your shield is being eaten away by a smarter MK that doesn't simply float up... you jump>instant air dodge... is it possible?

this kind of thing pisses me off.

Puffball64 said:

Just a quickie:

According to youtube replys to the vids vs. DMK, DMK used a total of:

174 Mach Tornados for the 5 recorded matches. This isn't including tornados that were done when the battery died in match 3, or the memory lacking in match 5, not to mention matches 6-7 went completely unrecorded.

DMK averaged about 34 (rounding down) tornados per match, using the info above. So, by approximation, DMK used about a grand total of:

238 Mach Tornados for the 7 full matches.

Hell, you can even add 102 MORE Mach Tornados, since he beat me 2-1 earlier in the winners bracket.

You can even add 68 MORE from him beating me 2-0 at September's tournament.

vs. DMK three times, two being Best of 3, one being Best of 7, DMK has used tornado against my Sonic approximately...:

408 TIMES

For only 12 matches...408 Mach Tornadoes is ABSURD.

Just...ya know...the more you know.

As a matter of fact, I'm making this a counter in my sig...

And remember, this number could be LARGER, since I included the broken data from matches 3 and 5.

Click to expand...

sigh, and that is one of the things that makes this particular smash games annoying for many to deal with. He probably played good players too, but that didn't make a difference, and he decided to abuse it, even if that possibibility of someone stopping consistantly happened, that chance is very small, overall. I swear, If I ever play a guy like this and beat his tornado spammy approach, I'm gonna point at him, laugh in his face, and say, "serves you right, now buy me some steak!" seriously. and I dont get mad too often either...

Oh okay. Yea, I was getting confused because I was only thinking about the initial part of the shuttle loop. I forgot the attack actually loops, lol. Thats why I've said spring to Dair owns shuttle loop, if you are above lol.

Is there a way to safely make MK bounce off of a grounded spring while he's Nado-ing? Like if the tornado is approaching you, perhaps running at the tornado and then inmmediately going into an upb right before you reach the tornado. I don't think it woudl be very useful, seeing as a MK could just start another nado, but maybe it could work for something.

Wow thanks for the tip I'll try that.

Hmm, the tornado is annoying to deal with. >_<
There really is no reliable counter. Spring under his tornado, him go up, he uses Side-B? =/

I love this thread. Keep going. I have nothing to contribute... except that if you guard a tornado correctly and the MK nados away, you can easily dash and punish accordingly.

Shuttle Loop also sucks... sorry for being a backseat driver, but I'd love more info on that as well.