Something new to Marth's game

So I'm playing brawl again >< the soon-to-be-banned metaknight inspired me to crawl out of my 64 cave.

Since I stopped playing, not a whole lot has changed among the top Marth's other than more platform-cancelled aerials, which are actually very useful.

In this line of thinking, I was trying to find a way to go from the base of a stage to a platform while doing a aerial, then dropping to do another fast aerial, resulting in another form of a wall (or approach if they happen to be on the platform) which has much more options than the standard wall (because you're essentially stopping in mid-air).

The most basic setup is while standing under the platform (preferably near the edge of a platform), jump then immediately double jump while hitting A. This will result in a rising n-air. Fastfall the n-air and now you're on the platform ready to do something else (depending on the opponents position). Most often you will do a platform drop fast falled aerial.

The reason why you use the second jump to cancel out the first jump is because of the shorter height you get on the second jump, you get on the platform faster than just doing a full hop fast falled n-air.

The reason why I prefer n-air the most is because n-air lasts longer, so there is very little time where you don't have a hitbox out. F-air and u-air work as well and do get you on the platform faster with a quick double jump, but because f-air and u-air are so fast you will either have to wait a bit after the double jump to have a hitbox as you land, or you do it early and there's about 1/10 of a second where you're missing a hitbox while you land.

tl:dr version - cancelling your first jump immediately with your second jump will result in a better spaced jump for most platforms. This will result in faster attacks getting on and off platforms.

I have actually seen some marth's do this, but mostly on accident and never consistently... if it has been discussed before I apologize.

Sounds interesting, some vids would be nice though.

And welcome back Junk, I hope MK gets banned too

Two things to try out today, I've might've done this before aswell.

Thanks Junk.

Interesting. Few questions.

I can never effectively platform drop after I land from the nair on the platform. I just end up crouching. If I wait half a second it works fine but I can't drop immediately.What am I doing wrong?

Why does this work better on the edge of the platform?

Why do you need a platform for this? It seems to me that you can djc rising nair to falling fair(not fast falled, but it still appears to be safe) just fine.

Just a note, this could also work with specials? Probably don't want to use dancing blade with this, but you MIGHT find it useful for shieldbreaker if someone is shielding on a platform. Instead of hyphen smashing them from below, djc shieldbreaker(if it doesn't break, they fall off the platform or it breaks to the falling fair) and falling fair (either breaks shield or hits them while they're falling off the platform)after landing on the platform.

this is useful.

welcome back.

Nice, this is good news to me, Nair is useful, and being able to set up a good defense depending on what your opponent is doing is good stuff.

feardragon64 said:

Why do you need a platform for this? It seems to me that you can djc rising nair to falling fair(not fast falled, but it still appears to be safe) just fine.

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I believe its so that you can cancel the wait time between midair aerials by simply landing on the platform and dropping through again. But I'm also wondering why it works better on the edges.

I use platform-canceling a lot, but I've never tried walling with this, because I like my edge-guarding options, and generally speaking platforms are near the edge. But this might contribute to my game on Yoshi's and certain counter-picks. Welcome back Junk.

I do this kind of stuff all the time in melee. Try using a uair when comming down instead of a fair. It could likely shield stab them and set them up for a juggle trap.

thanks junk its really refreshing seeing something new to master, welcome back and i hope you keep finding and developing aproaching and spacing options for marth.

Thanks for the welcome back everyone

Pierce7d said:

I use platform-canceling a lot, but I've never tried walling with this, because I like my edge-guarding options, and generally speaking platforms are near the edge. But this might contribute to my game on Yoshi's and certain counter-picks. Welcome back Junk.

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People have always used platform cancelling but this is just the fastest way to get to the platform with a hitbox that can lead into other options. It's fine to use if the opponent is in front of you instead of going for the generic (but still very good) tilts.

Darksonic I use this all the time in melee too but it's way easier in melee so let's not discuss that And I'm not talking about the platform drop aerial (although that usually follows up this maneuver), I'm talking about the fastest way to do a rising aerial and land on the platform in the shortest time.

I'll respond to other people's comments but right now I'm going to Brawl

Edit: Wow I'm in a good mood with all these smilies

Okay I had my friends try to do it, and most people don't hit both jumps fast enough. If you hit it fast enough Marth should barely clear the platform on Battlefield.

I can never effectively platform drop after I land from the nair on the platform. I just end up crouching. If I wait half a second it works fine but I can't drop immediately.What am I doing wrong?

You just have to learn the timing and let Marth get back into a neutral position. Half a second is a little too long of a wait.. but the faster you get Marth to land on the platform the faster you can drop.

Why does this work better on the edge of the platform?

Because you can Isai-edge-cancel your aerial (don't know what it's really called but when you watch videos of Isai he abuses this more than any other player). Basically when you land near the edge of a platform with enough horizontal momentum you will go off the platform with no lag from the aerial or from landing and you can immediately do another aerial.

Why do you need a platform for this? It seems to me that you can djc rising nair to falling fair(not fast falled, but it still appears to be safe) just fine.

Just try it in mid-air. n-air lasts so long that you can full hop n-air and you can't get another aerial out before you land. You need the platform to cancel your aerial.

Just a note, this could also work with specials?

Haven't tried but I will and let you know.

JunkInTheTrunk said:

Because you can Isai-edge-cancel your aerial (don't know what it's really called but when you watch videos of Isai he abuses this more than any other player). Basically when you land near the edge of a platform with enough horizontal momentum you will go off the platform with no lag from the aerial or from landing and you can immediately do another aerial.

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That's actually called platform canceling. And it's also only in melee (in brawl you will suffer from the lag of your aerial and then slide off the platform except with specials where you will just fall of while doing the special.).

Dark Sonic said:

That's actually called platform canceling. And it's also only in melee (in brawl you will suffer from the lag of your aerial and then slide off the platform except with specials where you will just fall of while doing the special.).

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orly? i guess i mixed up auto-cancelled aerials on a platform with platform cancelling. w/e i was never #1 at theorycrafting and don't plan to be.

and lmao it's definitely not only in melee because Isai first discovered it in 64. and even if it doesn't work in Brawl (which I won't believe unless I see a video showing otherwise) if you do this right you don't suffer much lag anyway.

In brawl when you do an aerial and try to slide off with your momentum, you will just stop at the edge of the platform in your aerial's lag.

Go ahead and try it out with Marth's dair, it's really quite easy to see.

And by "only in melee," I meant that it didn't transfer to brawl. I didn't know it was in smash 64, because I do not play it.

Ankoku said:

Actually, it's called edge canceling. You can't edge cancel aerials any more but you can edge cancel quite a bit of other things, including forward smash (getting pushed away by shield on Yoshi's Island).

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Oh.... **** I keep getting terms confused.
So to get this straight, sliding of a platform (or any edge really) while doing an aerial is edge canceling.
Doing an aerial while dropping through a platform and hitting someone (causing you to stay on the platform) is platform canceling.
What is ledge canceling? I swear I've heard that term somewhere, but I can't remember what it was. (Maybe it was just another word for edge canceling?)

Anyway, yeah edge canceling is not in brawl (with aerials). And yeah, I've noticed people slide of edges while doing smashes. What's up with that?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9VSMStWr-g
0:28. He didn't even hit anything (most of the time I slide off after hitting a shield). And the little blue blur effect followed him while he was doing a nair! Weird.

What you're discussing has nothing to do with my original point other than it will actually help you more now that you don't necessarily have to go for the edge.

Please save me from completely slamming you. To put it simply, thank you for the clarification and if you have questions not directly related to the thread go post in EL's thread.

You made 2 completely incorrect statements in your post (64 and platform cancel) and your undeserved elitist attitude makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

1. I was correcting what you said for your benifit, not mine. I may not have known the exact term, but the point was that in brawl you cannot slide off an edge to cancel an aerials lag. I already knew this, and there is no benifit to me in posting it, other than helping the Marth community.

2.This is and has always been common knowledge. People have always known that double jumping to get to a platform is faster than full hopping. It was known far before brawl even came out (I don't know if it was in 64, since I don't play it, but Samus players used it all the time in melee. Double Jump platform missle cancel anyone?)

3. I fail to see how my attitude is elitist in any way. I was mearly trying to help you, because you were giving out false and possibly detrimental information (that sliding off an edge would get rid of your lag, which is untrue) and you respond to me with "vids or it didn't happen?"

4.The post above was an appologetic post, recognizing that I had made a mistake in my use of terms, and asking for clarification for the sake of myself and others. The other part of my post (the video) was a response to

Ankoku said:

You can't edge cancel aerials any more but you can edge cancel quite a bit of other things, including forward smash (getting pushed away by shield on Yoshi's Island).

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I posted the video hoping for a response from Ankoku with some kind of explination, since Sonic clearly did not hit Shiek's shield. I ask Ankoku, because I recognize that Ankoku is a knowledgable player and might be able to explain this (or at least know someone who could, since the Sonic boards are stumped on it).


So yeah, I'd like it if you kindly STFU and learn to take constructive criticism better. My very first post in this thread was a suggestion based on my previous experience in melee, that is still very applicable to brawl and you took direct offense to it. You were talking about how double jumping to reach the platform is faster than full hopping (which is or at least should be common knowledge), and that it could be used to sheild pessure an opponent that's standing on a platform. You suggested that dropping through the platform and fairing would be a nice followup on this shield pressure. I suggested a followup that I believe would have better success, since it would be hitting their diminished shield and would put them in a better position than fair. But you post "well, it's a lot easier in melee" and tell everyone to disregard it?

Dark Sonic said:

1. I was correcting what you said for your benifit, not mine. I may not have known the exact term, but the point was that in brawl you cannot slide off an edge to cancel an aerials lag. I already knew this, and there is no benifit to me in posting it, other than helping the Marth community.

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You have never taught me anything in melee or brawl, so why would you assume you can help me now?

IMO you're just a random that's accumulated posts from correcting people for 3k posts. I'll let you know when I actually hear your name because you're good.

Dark Sonic said:

2.This is and has always been common knowledge. People have always known that double jumping to get to a platform is faster than full hopping. It was known far before brawl even came out (I don't know if it was in 64, since I don't play it, but Samus players used it all the time in melee. Double Jump platform missle cancel anyone?)

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This fails on so many levels. First it's NOT common knowledge as proven in this thread. Second, your melee knowledge doesn't really impress me so stop trying. If you ever come to Cali I'll MM you any amount in 64/Melee or Brawl. Playing against good people every day > any theorycrafting you might have done.

Dark Sonic said:

3. I fail to see how my attitude is elitist in any way. I was mearly trying to help you, because you were giving out false and possibly detrimental information (that sliding off an edge would get rid of your lag, which is untrue) and you respond to me with "vids or it didn't happen."

Click to expand...

I already corrected myself so no point in reiterating your point. And lmao tell me how my posts are detrimental at all I've done way more for the Brawl Marth community then you ever have or ever will because I just don't spew random information about melee in a Brawl forum.

Dark Sonic said:

4.The post above was an appologetic post, recognizing that I had made a mistake in my use of terms, and asking for clarification for the sake of myself and others. The other part of my post (the video) was a response to

I posted the video hoping for a response from Ankoku with some kind of explination, since Sonic clearly did not hit Shiek's shield. I ask Ankoku, because I recognize that Ankoku is a knowledgable player and might be able to explain this (or at least know someone who could, since the Sonic boards are stumped on it).

Click to expand...

I believe they have PMs for a reason. btw Sonic is trash.

Dark Sonic said:

So yeah, I'd like it if you kindly STFU and learn to take constructive criticism better. My very first post in this thread was a suggestion based on my previous experience in melee, that is still very applicable to brawl and you took direct offense to it. You were talking about how double jumping to reach the platform is faster than full hopping, and that it could be used to sheild pessure an opponent that's standing on a platform. You suggested that dropping through the platform and fairing would be a nice followup on this shield pressure. I suggested a followup that I believe would have better success, since it would be hitting their diminished shield and would put them in a better position than fair.

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LOL I stopped reading at STFU tl;dr

This is MY thread. If you want to QQ about me do it in a PM or tell your friends how mean I am. Meanwhile GTFO of my thread. Is that clear enough for you?

wow i always loved how junk was polite yet hurting, but i like more this raging junk lol

anyway i´ve been triying this and it seems pretty safe and cool so thanks again.

nickcrapy7 said:

wow i always loved how junk was polite yet hurting, but i like more this raging junk lol

anyway i´ve been triying this and it seems pretty safe and cool so thanks again.

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I like you /nohomo

normally I'm the other self unless someone thinks they can outflame me >: )

Edit: actually you want to go to the edge because its faster for Marth to run off the side of a platform then to wait for him to return to a neutral position so you can drop from the platform

just try it if you land a n-air on a platform its faster to run off and do a fast falled aerial versus trying to drop from the platform and do a aerial

we main marth there´s no homo in us just style and tiaras, i like you too junk even though i liked the bear better.

I agree with junk

we missed you junk. thanks for the tip.

Junkinthetrunk: i dunno i was always upset with brawl cause i knew people were going to do stuff but i couldn't do anything but then I started spacing better and dodging more which gives me the options i need
steel2nd: WOW
steel2nd: SPACING WORKS IN FIGHTING GAMES?
steel2nd: HEH
steel2nd: WHO KNEW?

JunkInTheTrunk said:

So I'm playing brawl again >< the soon-to-be-banned metaknight inspired me to crawl out of my 64 cave.

Since I stopped playing, not a whole lot has changed among the top Marth's other than more platform-cancelled aerials, which are actually very useful.

In this line of thinking, I was trying to find a way to go from the base of a stage to a platform while doing a aerial, then dropping to do another fast aerial, resulting in another form of a wall (or approach if they happen to be on the platform) which has much more options than the standard wall (because you're essentially stopping in mid-air).

The most basic setup is while standing under the platform (preferably near the edge of a platform), jump then immediately double jump while hitting A. This will result in a rising n-air. Fastfall the n-air and now you're on the platform ready to do something else (depending on the opponents position). Most often you will do a platform drop fast falled aerial.

The reason why you use the second jump to cancel out the first jump is because of the shorter height you get on the second jump, you get on the platform faster than just doing a full hop fast falled n-air.

The reason why I prefer n-air the most is because n-air lasts longer, so there is very little time where you don't have a hitbox out. F-air and u-air work as well and do get you on the platform faster with a quick double jump, but because f-air and u-air are so fast you will either have to wait a bit after the double jump to have a hitbox as you land, or you do it early and there's about 1/10 of a second where you're missing a hitbox while you land.

tl:dr version - cancelling your first jump immediately with your second jump will result in a better spaced jump for most platforms. This will result in faster attacks getting on and off platforms.

I have actually seen some marth's do this, but mostly on accident and never consistently... if it has been discussed before I apologize.

Click to expand...

Great find and from all of us, we hope Meta gets banned too. G&W as well. The great part if Metaknight is banned, Marth will become amazing because Falco's will start becoming very prevalent which would help Marth.

lol Junk. You WAY over-reacted. Dark Sonic lurks the Marth boards, and has posted useful information from time to time, and I'm pretty sure he was only trying to help, and not really be elitist. Oh well. That's between you and him.

Pierce7d said:

lol Junk. You WAY over-reacted. Dark Sonic lurks the Marth boards, and has posted useful information from time to time, and I'm pretty sure he was only trying to help, and not really be elitist. Oh well. That's between you and him.

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are you serious? do I need to link the thread where you cry about your recent tourney for the marth boards to see?

the difference between your rage post (in that thread) and mine is that mine is strictly to slam him, i don't even care if my opinion is right and im not taking it seriously at all. if you ever forget this is a message board about a video game

i thought you knew me better than that.