Match-up discussion #29: Pokemon Trainer

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 16, 2008

Yup, it's time or another match-up discussion

Pokemon trainer...I guess we have to analyze each pkmn on their own first

Squirtle:

The hardest pkmn for Wolf. Squirtle would easily have the advantage, if he wasn't so easy to KO. His mobility in the air, his small size and his fast moves make him hard to pressure or let's better say impossible to pressure. Be campy. Stay on teh ground, use your best options out of shield and finish him asap

55:45 Squirtle

Ivysaur:

Ivysaur is easier. She has some overpowered finishers, be aware of them. Other than that she's got nothing on you. Wolfs faster and easily outcamps her. He's also better in the air. You should stay out of the air though. Ivys anti-air game is good. She's easily finished as she lacks a decent recover

60:40 Wolf

Charizard.:

The easiest Pkmn for Wolf. He's huge and slow so use agressinvely bair to pressure him into oblivion. He's very slow in the air and on the ground so use your mobility to zone him and get him pff the stage. Don't try to gimp him though. His recovery has SA frames, which makes him hard to gimp for Wolf. It shouldn't be necesary though.

65:35 Wolf

Overall...it's hard to say. The longer Squirtle is in play, the harder it get's. But since Wolf has the advantage over Ivy and Zard it should be slightly in Wolfs favour...I guess

Discuss

Steeler · Oct 16, 2008

zard can shieldgrab your bairs. and zard isn't slow either on the ground or in the air. and flamethrower racks up insane damage on a recovering wolf. i would say zard is wolf's toughest matchup here. i more or less agree with the other two, although wolf will have a lot of problems against an aggressive ivysaur in melee range, because ivysaur outranges everything wolf has, even the fsmash with fair. ftilt and dtilt can safely interrupt it. bullet seed racks up a ridiculous amount of damage, and wolf doesn't have that many options up close that are safe on block, so those are perfect bullet seed opportunities.

and squirtle doesn't care about campiness, lasers are easily avoided, and wolf kind of has a blindspot at 45 degrees.

i'll be willing to play anyone.

edit:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5587676

made a thread on the pt board, since we will use these threads to summarize in the op for our match up thread as well.

Bomber7 · Oct 16, 2008

I agree with Steeler. Tough really my only problem I see is the gun and reflector. I havea friend who plays wold, even though he isnt that good I still manage to beat him despite his laser spam.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 16, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
zard can shieldgrab your bairs.

Nope. DI away @ max range = shieldgrab immunity

and zard isn't slow either on the ground or in the air.

Way slower than Wolf thoug

and flamethrower racks up insane damage on a recovering wolf.

U gotta get him off the stage first -_-

although wolf will have a lot of problems against an aggressive ivysaur in melee range, because ivysaur outranges everything wolf has, even the fsmash with fair.

These moves are slow. Wolf can easily shield -> punish them

ftilt and dtilt can safely interrupt it. bullet seed racks up a ridiculous amount of damage, and wolf doesn't have that many options up close that are safe on block, so those are perfect bullet seed opportunities.

Ftilt, dtilt, jab, grab would like to have a word with you

and squirtle doesn't care about campiness, lasers are easily avoided

Camping is not only laser spam

and wolf kind of has a blindspot at 45 degrees.

What?

i'll be willing to play anyone.

IRL only

Sesshomuronay · Oct 16, 2008

Bomber7 said:
I agree with Steeler. Tough really my only problem I see is the gun and reflector. I havea friend who plays wold, even though he isnt that good I still manage to beat him despite his laser spam.

thats nice but do you have a friend that plays wolf?

Imo wolfs advantage for ivysaur/charizard at 60:40 and against squirtle its 50:50.

So imo the matchup is 55:45 wolfs favor.

Bomber7 · Oct 16, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
thats nice but do you have a friend that plays wolf?

Imo wolfs advantage for ivysaur/charizard at 60:40 and against squirtle its 50:50.

So imo the matchup is 55:45 wolfs favor.

ummm, well Redson did play(just between us friends), a decent wolf game but that was in the early stages of brawling, he dropped him(but still plays him sometimes) and picked up Shiek and for a while has been playing as Fox.

Steeler · Oct 16, 2008

on the ground charizard is faster than wolf lol. attack wise, charizard still has his jabs, dtilt, utilt, grabs, ROCK SMASSHHHHHHH which is actually almost instantaneous, you'll have to hit zard through the rock to cancel it. hit the rock and you'll take a load of damage.

at 0%, charizard can chain a bthrow into an fthrow and get you off stage. just like that. its inescapable. now wolf is in a bad spot, and flamethrower is a good option here. charizard is strong enough and his grab game good enough that getting wolf off stage isn't a hassle.

in the air, mobility-wise, wolf is of course faster, he's like top 5 fastest in the game. but charizard isn't slow by any means. and his fair, bair, uair, nair come out pretty quickly. dair is the only move with serious start up lag. and of course rock smash can be used aerially.

ivysaur's bair, ftilt, dtilt, his main spacing tools are not slow at all lol. and have good range, so punishing isn't a piece of cake...fsmash is probably your best bet at that.

bullet seed comes out within 5 frames. and the initial hit has an impressive hitbox that surrounds ivysaur. grab and jab are well within seed's range. ftilt and dtilt, i think, need to be spaced very well to stay out of its range. so you only have two moves that bullet seed won't be able to punish? that's kind of limiting...and bullet seed isn't ivysaur's only punisher. it's just his most dangerous one.

i do have a friend that plays wolf as his main character (although he says he mains random lulz), so hey, i can play him and report back with findings or something. i guess its the best option if we can't do wifi. although you can still find things out on wifi that aren't dependent on lag, like each character's spacing and off stage game and stuff.

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

People fail to realize that Ivysaur has among the quickest tilts in the game. Bullet Seed comes out in 1 frame. It's the same speed as ZSS' jab. LOL at Ivy having slow tilts.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 16, 2008

Are you f*cking insane? This is not a "lololololol my mains rulez lololololol"-thread but a god**** match-up discussion. Yeah, Ivisaur has uber fast tilts, unfailable smashes, perfect grab game and outcamps everything! Yeah, you're right! Ivy is teh best character in teh entire f*cking game!!!

I'm sick of the lies you guys are spreading. Charizard can't Shieldgrab Wolfs bair. Period.
Rofl @ Insider dude making it sound as if Zard had a f*cking 0 death grab combo, despite the fact, that Wolf won't give him the opportunity to grab him at all. You act as if Rock Smash BS was impossible to block, no there's certainly nothing Wolf could ever hope to do about it. Can't outspeed / outrange it, has no shine to counter it and no shield.

Get your f*cking facts straight and come back with serious arguments and not with random bias BS

Puh. This had to be done...[/SPOILERS]

Steeler · Oct 16, 2008

uhhh what? ivysaur does have quick tilts, but i don't think anyone said that he has good smashes, or a perfect grab game (i hate it) and outcamps everything. i'm pretty sure everyone has acknowledged that wolf forces an approach, however, he can space well up close, which is why wolf won't dominate ivysaur in melee range.

zard does indeed have a 0% grab combo, and it would lead well into a damaging flamethrower. blocking rock smash will only work if your shield is really close to healthy. otherwise it'll eat through. and it does have pretty good range, i think wolf's fsmash and shine are the only things that can hit through to zard, and it has to be used before zard headbutts the rock. shine might even be able to reflect the rocks back at zard.

are you familiar with how pokemon trainer plays, gheb? if you don't, you have no place to insult us because we are both in the same boat at that point. and it seems like you don't, considering how you thought ivysaur's main spacing attacks were "slow". so at this point, our objective should be to bring each character's strengths to the table and then debunk it from the other side. your bair point is exactly what i'm referring to, and i'm glad you mentioned it. it's how you figure out what works and doesn't in a matchup. instead of throwing a piss fit.

now, how exactly is wolf not going to give zard a chance to grab? you've brought up the bair point, although charizard can just rock smash or flamethrower as a counter measure.

you screwed up your spoiler tag.

Wolfandike · Oct 16, 2008

to find the match up squirtle 55:45 ivy 60:40 Charizard 65:35 add all of wolfs advantage percents together 45,60,65 then pt's 55,40,35 sooo 150:130 wolfs favor so that would be like 55:45 wolfs favor

Collective of Bears · Oct 16, 2008

Squirtle has the advantage 55:45. Try to outrange him, and watch out for Water Gun recovery gimps.

Ivysaur outranges Wolf, but Wolf can either outcamp, but Wolf also has one or two nice approach options with Blasters and Fsmash. 55:45 Wolf

Charizard is the easiest, big and slow and projectile-less. Use your fastest attacks and camp when neccesary. 60:40 Wolf.

Overall, it's a 55:45, Wolf.

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

Yeah, I'm pretty done discussing matchups. It's always the same thing over and over again. If you think Charizard is a slow attacker, fine. If you think there is nothing to Ivysaur but gimping her, fine. Want to think Squirtle is the best at everything, fine. So if you think averaging PT out in matchups is a good idea, good luck. Have fun people, because I'm done.

Steeler · Oct 16, 2008

but squirtle IS the best at everything!!! except recovering and camping and spacing and killing.

i agree with blitzkrieg's general sentiment on squirtle and ivysaur but definitely not charizard. i think we should focus on zard.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 16, 2008

I think you should focus on facts and not on lies like Zard being able to Shieldgrab a spaced bair with away DI.

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

I would agree with blitz, except that he forgot the Razor Leaf + grab approach. The Full hop, tipped Fair approach from above. Or just the Bair. But seriously, if everyone is going to think the same way all of the time, I'm done. It won't effect me in anyway in an acutal game either. I'm not saying that PT is at an advantage, but that's not my point.

/done

Steeler · Oct 16, 2008

gheb i have acknowledged that you cannot shieldgrab a properly spaced bair, please quit being a douchebag, thanks. you've done your share of "spreading lies".

edit onxy, you won't be able to razor leaf -> whatever if you are getting lazzzzored

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

Then Wolf wont be able to Fsmash me if he is Leafed. . It works both ways, Steeler

A2ZOMG · Oct 16, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
but squirtle IS the best at everything!!! except recovering and camping and spacing and killing.

Well, he's better at spacing and KOing than the other two. That's for sure.

Onxy · Oct 16, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
Well, he's better at spacing and KOing than the other two. That's for sure.

You don't play PT.

Kookie · Oct 16, 2008

Squirtle can be a huge ***** sometimes, but if you can time your Bairs just right, he won't be too much trouble. And seeing as how Wolf has a clear enough advantage over the other two, the win goes to Wolf, I would say.

By the way, Gheb makes me wet.

Demenise · Oct 16, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
I think you should focus on facts and not on lies like Zard being able to Shieldgrab a spaced bair with away DI.

I'm actually unsure about this. If Charizard dash grabs the Wolf, I think he'd be able to grab him, but I'm not 100% sure.

Anyway, the way I see it:

Squirtle: Squirtle can actually avoid the lasers and get in for the hit. The problem is, Wolf outranges him. If a Wolf plays it rather defensively, I think he can have the upper hand. Squirtle is a get-up-in-your-face character. If Wolf can see that coming and counter it, then Squirtle will have to find different ways around. Otherwise, Wolf can counter. The advantage to Squirtle in this case? One whiffed move and Squirtle can land the attack. It's all about patience and reactions here on Wolf's part, and manuverability on Squirtle's.

50:50.

Ivysaur: Razor Leaf works well at getting in against Wolf, as long as he doesn't reflect them. Which can happen if they're too preocuppied with lasers and such. However, the good part about Ivysaur is that he can create openings to get in and Bair if he wishes. Wolf here depends on stopping Ivysaur from getting in, for Ivysaur outranges them. However, Wolf can gimp Ivysaur easily, and with Wolf being great at getting opponents off-stage, it isn't hard to kill him.

55:45 Wolf.

Charizard: Charizard is faster than Wolf. Wolf is more manuverable in the air. Charizard can stop your approaches with Flamethrower and Bair. Wolf can spam out Charizard so he doesn't approach. Charizard gimps Wolf. Wolf gets Charizard off of the stage. Basically, because of manuverability in the air and the ability to stop an oncoming Charizard with lasers, Wolf has the advantage. However, a Wolf has to be careful in range; a good Charizard can easily shield grab you, thanks to giant range (though I'm not sure out of the Bair + DI.) He can also punish with Ftilt, Dtilt, Flamethrower, and Rock Smash. Charizard outranges Wolf. Wolf outcamps Charizard. Basically, force Charizard to approach, and be careful in range. If Charizard takes control of the match, you're dead. However, if you play it right, you start with the control, meaning that you'll be able to keep the control easily.

60:40 Wolf (possibly 65:35.)

Overall Pokemon Trainer vs. Wolf: 55:45 or 60:40 Wolf.

Steeler · Oct 17, 2008

i just finished playing a good wolf today.

ivysaur is the worst one in this matchup. definitely. 6:4 wolf. maybe 65:35 lasers are a bother, the only way to really avoid them is powershielding because ivy's jumps and horizontal air speed are so bad. and approaching on the ground like that is very bad for ivy. stupid quick smashes are a bother, bair and edgeguarding is a bother.

charizard is fine. the main thing zard has going for him is the offstage game. flamethrower and dair spike are both very effective. i would honestly say neutral. just work on your power shielding so lasers aren't a bother.

squirtle is okay as well. neutral sounds about right.

overall 55:45 wolf, imho. play a good wolf guys, it'll help you look into this matchup more than discussing it ever will. ;D

from what i see, i think everyone agrees on squirtle, everyone is overrating ivysaur, and everyone is underrating charizard.

Brinzy · Oct 17, 2008

Eh, Ivy seems like such a good anti-air. I guess 55:45 Wolf isn't bad.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

K, the input is getting better. Most posts look reasonable now. However we do need agreement here.

So nobody seems to have a problem with 55:45 for Squirtle
Disadvantage Ivy seems about right

We should really debate Zard now, since there are bigger differences

Wolfandike · Oct 17, 2008

Zards big size makes him easy to bair spacing. Zards recovery is easy to gimp.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

Zards recovery has SA frames. It cannot be gimped.

Getting your facts straight is an important factor in match-up debates -_-

Steeler · Oct 17, 2008

against charizard, wolf off stage is royally ****ed. big time. at high level play, wolf should either die or take a ton of damage from flamethrower. much easier to gimp than charizard's recovery. this is why i think charizard is nowhere near ivysaur's level in this matchup.

the third jump helps bait out wolf's spike attempts, and wolf is limited in how far he can travel before he risks suicide. super armor frames at the beginning of fly also help deter gimp attempts. and gliding is an option either really high above stage or below stages like smashville and battlefield.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

You're exagerating, Steeler. You act as if Wolf was dead once he's off the stage. Since we're talking bout a high level play, we can safely assume that the Wolf finds a way around the flamethrower, like dropping down and use a vertical UpB or something...Wolf has more recovery options than u think, he has 3 different moves out of his SideB alone.

Steeler · Oct 17, 2008

vertical up b can be spiked with zard's dair. and if charizard so chooses, he can angle a flamethrower down so that it covers the trajectory of his up b.

edit, is it possible to knock wolf out of his side b? as in, does it behave like falco/fox's side b's?

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

It acts similar but is more dangerous

Steeler · Oct 17, 2008

more dangerous as in can sweetspot and kill. but can you knock him out of it like you can with fox/falco side b?

Demenise · Oct 17, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
more dangerous as in can sweetspot and kill. but can you knock him out of it like you can with fox/falco side b?

I think you can. However, don't; it's too risky. I guess if you can get him to run into a Fair or Bair, it'd be good. Or the safer method: wait for him to be in the falling animation (assumping you edge hogged him) and try to punish.

...I'd wait for the Up B.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

Waiting for the upB is a much smarter idea <_<

Ishiey · Oct 17, 2008

SideB isn't too difficult to intercept, although I'm not sure what moves can do so. I wouldn't be surprised if rock smash would stop it, rock smash does everything. EVERYTHING. But yeah, waiting for the upB is always a safer situation.

I don't have much to input here, but overall wolf vs PT is a minor advantage for wolf. I don't think anyone mentioned the reflector, against squirtle it can help you break through his attacks and also for a good deal of charizard's attacks. Charizard has great range, but lacks speed on most of his attacks, and the blaster is great because of charizard's size and low(er) maneuverability. Charizard is better offstage, as most people have agreed, but it's not the easiest thing to get wolf there. Wolf in general does well against larger characters IMO, and this isn't that much different, small advantage for wolf against charizard, 55:45, maybe a little bit more.

Demenise · Oct 17, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
SideB isn't too difficult to intercept, although I'm not sure what moves can do so. I wouldn't be surprised if rock smash would stop it, rock smash does everything. EVERYTHING. But yeah, waiting for the upB is always a safer situation.

I don't have much to input here, but overall wolf vs PT is a minor advantage for wolf. I don't think anyone mentioned the reflector, against squirtle it can help you break through his attacks and also for a good deal of charizard's attacks. Charizard has great range, but lacks speed on most of his attacks, and the blaster is great because of charizard's size and low(er) maneuverability. Charizard is better offstage, as most people have agreed, but it's not the easiest thing to get wolf there. Wolf in general does well against larger characters IMO, and this isn't that much different, small advantage for wolf against charizard, 55:45, maybe a little bit more.

If you mess up, you're spiked to your death. No matter what, considering the trajectory, after you attack Wolf, I think he can Side B again and make it to the stage, spiking you.

So yeah, Up B = Win for Pokemon Trainer.

Steeler · Oct 19, 2008

well, in side b's case, either hug the edge if he's too far below to make it on stage, or wait for him to land and punish accordingly. you could play it safe and hug the ledge, and then ledge hop -> rock smash if you aren't sure whether he'll make it onto the stage or not.

so...let's sum this up? wolf board is already moving on.

squirtle 55:45 slight neutral
ivysaur 40:60 slight disadvantage
charizard 45:55 slight neutral

overall...45:55 slight neutral for pokemon trainer. overall, this is a very close matchup no matter how you look at it, and it'll depend on who's more skilled. however, i will make a note that the longer ivysaur is out, the more pt is in danger of quickly losing his stock to a gimp, and dsmash makes recovery very difficult for squirtle at high percent. however, with proper di, squirtle can survive on fd over 120%. the longer wolf is out, the more likely he will also get gimped. and at high levels of play, which is what these matchups are about, gimpage will be more common. wolf and ivysaur are almost equally vulnerable, but pt doesn't have to use ivysaur much.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 19, 2008

These numbers look good. That's alright by me. Will you use them in the PT boards?

Although: If you have 2 match-up's in Wolfs favour and one in PTs facvour shouldn't the overall match-up be 55:45 for Wolf?

About the "moving on thing": It doesn't matter. If you have something to say, feel free to do so

Steeler · Oct 19, 2008

yeah gheb, that was what i meant by 45:55 pt. pt's number was first in my post. and i will use these numbers, it's a wonderful thing when both boards agree on a match up. nice doing business with you.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 19, 2008

OK, I guess we're done with this one

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