Match-up discussion #30: Samus

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

Match-up time! This time it's samus

...

Samus isn't as good as she used to be in Melee. Her KO power was extremely gimped....
I consider Wolf as one of her harder match-up for that reason alone. You can live virtually forever (as Wolf) against her, unless you're stupid enough to get gimped. She has no good KO move and the only thing, that comes close to a finisher - a freash fsmash - is hard to hit against such a well ranged character like Wolf. She's limited as a charecter and Wolfs abilities make matters only worse: She can't camp / missile span, since Wolf can do it better. On the ground Wolf wins range and priority by a large margin....In the air things are a bit more difficult, thanks to her zair, which is her best move. It outranges virtually everything and is very spammable (but also very weak). Avoid aerial battles unless you can make perfect use of Wolfs mobility and his range...

Wolf is certainly not Samus' worst match-up but she has no realistic chance to win, unless the Wolf makes a heavy mistake. Therefore I give it a 70:30 in Wolfs favour

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

hmm well I disagree with a few things above:
samus can out zair/missile spam wolf big time.... you are severly underestimating her abilitly in this field... her zairs and missiles can come at you almost continuously and if not keep you spaced (get it?spacies? lol that was bad...) away from her, and set up her approaches both dash to screw attack, and her grab which has an incredible range... ^^
and her main ko moves are probably dtilt, charge shot, dsmash, utilt from the edge, and dair for spikes as well as fsmash.. still I wouldn't expect onstage kos to start until 130% with her...
Wolf still probably has the advantage... maybe 60-40... however its not uncommon at all for samus to pull off wins here.
He's definitely not her hardest matchup- that award goes to MK, Olimar, and DDD probably

Ishiey · Oct 17, 2008

Zair is bad for wolf (and everyone else, I guess). She's really floaty, not sure if all would consider that good or bad but I find floaty characters harder to deal with when playing wolf overall. Wolf outranges samus in close range combat, and reflector deals with missile spam, so keeping on the ground is probably more effective here. 70:30 is a bit of a stretch though, I'd go with 60:40.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

Hive, you do know that Wolf has a reflector right?

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

yep... she can missile cancel so that even if you reflect one the other will cancel it out...
zair goes straight through the reflector too...
more than anything homing missiles are used to open up setups and to keep space, not necessarily to keep damage...
for example someone who tries to reflect everything will be set up for a zair
someone who tries to powershield too much will be set up for a grab
and someone who triest to airdodge through will eat missiles...
don't get me wrong.. wolf has a lot of things going for him in this matchup...
getting passed spams isn't really one of them....

edit: also samus can have a homing missile follow behind her zair, so after zair hits the reflector the missile can come in for damage while its down...
edit2: his reflector is good don't get me wrong.. but not as good as you would think in this situation

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

IMO its 60:40. Samus has a lot of killing problems unless you can get in a spike somehow. Wolf is better up close and can reflect stuff.

Her Zair probably keeps this matchup from going to anywhere worse than 60:40.
Wolfs blaster and reflector can force her to approach but she doesnt have many problems with that.

-Mars- · Oct 17, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
Hive, you do know that Wolf has a reflector right?

That's the whole point of her missiles, they're more used as spacing tools that lead into setups than they are for actually hitting. They travel so slow, if you try to reflect them it could lead into a zair or even a quick dash grab.

edit: lol hive covered everything that i was typing

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

Yea reflecting missles isnt too great, it usually results in getting punished. If I fight samus I just powershield the missles or avoid them but the blaster is still better than the missles imo.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

The point is that Samus has to approach, that's all that matters

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

But she can approach safely with Z-air.

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
but the blaster is still better than the missles imo.

possible, but the point is samus will never just be spamming missiles.. she can hit the zairs and missiles together so that the two spams compliment each other... also she can always throw charge shots into the mix as well ^^
wolf has a better close range...
but samus isn't entirely weak in this area either... her dtilt has very good range, dsmash is powerful and hits around her...
and she can dash into screw attacks as well which rack damage fast (as well as screw attack from dtilt, and dair as well...)
her fair and uair are both pretty good in the air too, fair is pretty good for approaches because it has a hitbox that stays out awhile, and uair can lead into any sort of spam before landing...
wolf can get more damage in a close range battle though...
so samus will usually try to play at a distance... when she does approach it is usually to set up space again...
ps Wolf has way kwler taunts... that's the only thing that might change it from 60-40 to 70-30

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
The point is that Samus has to approach, that's all that matters

Samus has the advantage if she DOESN'T approach... I would say its more up to wolf to approach...

DelxDoom · Oct 17, 2008

60-40 wolf
samus gimping is like the only way she's gonna win by a large margin, everything else is just gonna be playing smart. Wolf without an easy ledge offstage is bad for Wolf. Platforms go to Samus.
Wolf kills better, but Samus is somewhat hard to kill.

Close up is not as one-sided as you think. Samus' Dtilt/Dsmash are very dangerous.

Both can camp, but Samus can keep out tons of stuff. Samus is one of the best campers lol

Wolf has a good chance just being good. AC safe fairs are really good. Samus making a mistake is an fsmash. If Samus is above you, you can definitely take advantage of the situation.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

Hive said:
Samus has the advantage if she DOESN'T approach... I would say its more up to wolf to approach...

Huh? That doesn't make sense to me. Samus can't just stand back and spam missiles without approaching...

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
Huh? That doesn't make sense to me. Samus can't just stand back and spam missiles without approaching...

its because she can just stand back and spam missiles/zairs without approaching close range, in fact that's one of her best strategies..... she will beat wolf in damage this way so there isn't any reason she wouldn't... sure she'll approach occassionally to mix things up when she sees openings in wolf's defences... but she really can just stay back almost forever if wolf waits for her to approach....
if you are far enough away she can double her homing missiles with a full jump, and zair spam... either forcing you to approach or tearing up your shield

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

At that distance Wolf can safely use Reflector. Samus has to approach

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

I agree wolf can do a pretty job of making people approach. But samus does a good job of approaching safely with that Z-air.

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
At that distance Wolf can safely use Reflector. Samus has to approach

samus won't have to approach if wolf is spamming reflector for two reasons though @.@
1. her homing missiles even if reflected almost certainly will not have enough momentum reflect back and hit samus
2. her zair goes through wolf's reflector and hits him...
wolf will have to approach samus or he will lose damage a lot more than he is able to give damage to samus...

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

How much range does Zair have? Over 9000?

Seriously, if Samus wants to use Zair she already has to approach

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

Im just gonna say it depends on the skill of the players who does a better job of camping.

EDIT: also if samus is using Z-air when she is approaching shes out of range of almost all of our attacks if spaced right.

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

zair has a frightening range..... and tippered it does 7% damage.... it also doesn't degenerate...
samus can keep half the stage between her and be hitting with zair... she will most definitely be out of range of wolf...

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

Well almost all of our attacks, can we counter with F-smash when she Z-airs?

By that I mean like block the z-air and then F-smash

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 17, 2008

We have the blaster

Sesshomuronay · Oct 17, 2008

That too .

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

I'm fairly positive zair has too long of a reach for his fsmash... samus can DI even further away too, after the shorthop keeping even more space...

The blaster is good...but samus will still get more damage in a long range situation though....

tha_carter · Oct 17, 2008

Samus MUST approach. Which always puts her at a big disadvantage. Any good samus knows NOT to spam the spacies because of how easily they can punish her. If Samus attempts to homing missle/z-air spam, wolf can take a half a step forward and he's now in forward smash range. Any enemy that can get samus out of casually spamming is at a huge advantage.

Not to mention, her best KO by far(minus spiking) is an undiminished charge shot. With Wolfs really fast reflector, samus must be very carefully, and often wont use it at all.

Wolf has more KO potential and better range on the ground and aerially.

A good Wolf will NOT get spiked. Eliminating samus' biggest threat.

Advantage wolf 70:30

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

tha_carter said:
Wolf has more KO potential and better range on the ground and aerially.

I agree with this line... and not much else...
Wolf is in no way invincible at being spammed, and one half step will bring you into zair range?? I really don't think so...
I am not an idiot samus I know what I'm talking about... (as your any good samus line implies <.<)wolf will be outdamaged if he doesn't approach. period.
I really didn't want to say it that harshly before though...

ps: if you're interested here's a vid of me(samus) vs pants(pt) to give you an idea of zairs range... I was slightly more spammy then usual in this, so I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of range zair has,
although its not the best vid of me :/ I'm better now than when this was taken...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbIGhuqJ1g&feature=related

tha_carter · Oct 17, 2008

lol, believe me, im also a very good samus.

We're speaking of equally skilled and knowledgeable (of the matchup) players. So if samus has the ability to missile>zair, wolf should have the ability to power shield. Meaning they can easily punish with his insane f-smash.

I dont doubt that you or any samus that knows the matchup can beat a wolf. It just take a fair bit more skill and knowledge. You cant cloud yourself from reality, Wolf just has more/better tools to work with in this particular matchup.

PS; i didnt read any of your posts, i wasnt 'implying' anything.

Hive · Oct 17, 2008

You're misunderstanding me if you think I think samus has the advantage in this matchup at all

Wolf definitely has the advantage... I've said that since the beginning...
but what I'm saying is that at long range samus will be able to inflict more damage.... since it was brought up that wolf could just sit back and wait for samus to approach...
Samus outspams Wolf, sorry. Wolf has a lot of advantages in this matchup but I really don't think long range is one of them...
also if wolf's only option for approaching in that situation is fsmash samus isn't going to stand there and take each one thrown at her after she zairs, she will learn to shield or grab.... (grab is effective anyways since zair forces wolf into shield)... but that's besides the point... wolf fsmashing shows that he has to approach... which is my point.... regardless...

ps samus doesn't rely on her charged shot for kos... and she'd be more careful if she's going against a spacies and keep in shielding range even if the charged shot is reflectd...and its still debatable if that's even her best ko move... I personally like dtilt... its easier to set up... and has good range

DelxDoom · Oct 17, 2008

zair has no landing lag guys. Also, it has longer range than wolf's fsmash.. so does homing missile. The missile is slow; the reflector doesn't help all that much. Wolf's laser is too easily avoided by Samus btw (unlike Falco's shdl)

Especially on platforms, Samus zair is really going to screw up all your stuff.

If you wolf camp (laser and smashes only pretty much) you can get outcamped; zairs and missiles beat laser and reflector.

If you're playing for real, Samus has very few options up close in the air, but a few on the ground.

I'll play Vista a little bit online (I know it's not that effective at finding out. but it'll give an idea) for a bit more idea, but I'm thinking still 60:40 Wolf.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 18, 2008

The problem is that 60:40 is indeed low. I mean, that means that Samus has reasonable chances to win, which is hardly the case vs Wolf. I'd rather go for 65:35

Hive · Oct 18, 2008

I thought she has a pretty reasonable win rate....? :/ but maybe I'm not playing good enough wolf's?
Wolf's a pretty hard matchup but I really think samus can pull off wins here... to a lesser extent than wolf of course... but still at 60-40 maybe?
anyways, you decide...
thanx for letting me contribute to discussions btw

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 18, 2008

It's OK we need your input. I don't think it's a big difference between 60:40 and 65:35...it's merely for the sake of an accurate match-up thread

Coldfront · Oct 18, 2008

Hive said:
You're misunderstanding me if you think I think samus has the advantage in this matchup at all
Wolf definitely has the advantage... I've said that since the beginning...
but what I'm saying is that at long range samus will be able to inflict more damage.... since it was brought up that wolf could just sit back and wait for samus to approach...
Samus outspams Wolf, sorry. Wolf has a lot of advantages in this matchup but I really don't think long range is one of them...
also if wolf's only option for approaching in that situation is fsmash samus isn't going to stand there and take each one thrown at her after she zairs, she will learn to shield or grab.... (grab is effective anyways since zair forces wolf into shield)... but that's besides the point... wolf fsmashing shows that he has to approach... which is my point.... regardless...

ps samus doesn't rely on her charged shot for kos... and she'd be more careful if she's going against a spacies and keep in shielding range even if the charged shot is reflectd...and its still debatable if that's even her best ko move... I personally like dtilt... its easier to set up... and has good range

If we're just going by KO percentage then CS actually is her best KO move against Wolf. If he's in the middle of FD a charge shot KO's him at 120%.

If we're talking about actually landing a KO move then I agree with you on dtilt, since even though Wolf has to be about 20% higher, you don't have to worry about it being reflected or worry about making sure the stage isn't working against you.

Also Hive, I saw that vid you posted up... I am stealing your Samus

Or at least modifying my game to spam ilike that, I've been doing it all wrong

Z1GMA · Oct 21, 2008

I too agree that it's about 60-40 (Wolf's favor).

One thing to keep in mind is Wolf's poor recovery.. Which gets even more poor Vs Samus supreme gimping capabilities!

alejo_ · Oct 21, 2008

I think its 70-30 in wolfs favor. Samus really lacks any good KO moves, and taking wolf to the air won't be a good idea.

This match is one sided. Wolf's recovery isn't that bad once you learn it well. Samus got gimped in brawl... Just my 2 cents. Might as well play ZSS

=)@MePlz · Apr 17, 2009

Opinion

Wolf's Advantages:

Blaster allows Wolf to camp.
Shine allows Wolf to counter camping.

So, this gets rid of her campy style.

Better close range game.
Better killing power.

Superior close-range game.

Samus' advantages:

Zair
Missiles (but Shine stops this)

This is the only thing that keeps Samus afloat.

It's an easy match for Wolf. Samus lacks a killing move, and due to Wolf's great defensive game, play defensive with lasers and Shine. Also, Wolf owns Samus in the air. Just watch for Zair and missiles and you're set!

Overall: 65:35 in Wolf's favor.

=)@MePlz · Apr 17, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
It's OK we need your input. I don't think it's a big difference between 60:40 and 65:35...it's merely for the sake of an accurate match-up thread

It's 65:35. Samus doesn't have a killing move (fsmash is OK).

All of my reasons are in my last post.

=)@MePlz · Apr 17, 2009

alejo_ said:
I think its 70-30 in wolfs favor. Samus really lacks any good KO moves, and taking wolf to the air won't be a good idea.

This match is one sided. Wolf's recovery isn't that bad once you learn it well. Samus got gimped in brawl... Just my 2 cents. Might as well play ZSS

Samus got nerfed in Brawl.

But yeah, I agree. This is why Wolf is so Bad@**.

Ishiey · Apr 18, 2009

I suggest you stop with the triple posts, unless you want infractions. Also, I think everything you said was already covered, so yeah. Basically, make one post at a time, and try to make sure that it's not just repeating previous information on an old topic.

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