Marth on the Ledge: Traps Against You and Your Opponent

Marth's Ledge Traps and Vice-Versa​

Marth on the Ledge


This really isn't a position any Marth wants to be in. Marth is one of the worst characters on the ledge because his options are so limited. Each option he has can be punished. Your opponent doesn't even have to predict you, depending on the character he could just stand there and react to whatever you do.


Notice where Meta Knight is standing. Not too close, and not too far away. Once you are outside the range of your opponent's ledge attack (Marth's is terrible) you have effectively limited their options to very few. Notice what happens if Marth attempts a ledge attack or simple get up:



Meta Knight uses his range to reset the situation. Marth is now back on the ledge with a little more %.

Let's take a look at some other options. Marth can also attempt a roll get up. This has a few invincibility frames, but the real punishing comes when you stand up. Notice how Meta can easily cover this option:



He turns around, grabs you, and throws you back out. You're right back where you started.


Another option.. Marth's double jump nair is often predicted by good opponents and punished:


Snake shields it and throws you back out:


Marth's final option, and one of the most reliable is the simple ledge jump. Of course, depending on what your opponent is doing or how good he is he may be able to effectively cover this as well. Snake can use his up smashes to effectively cover most aerial approaches while you are on the ledge:


Or:



This is a little something I made up. It's simply doing a double jump forward b to stall yourself, hopefully throwing off your opponent's timing. Depending on what your opponent does you could throw out a fair or just land. This is in no way a sure-fire method, it's simply a mix up and isn't that reliable if your opponent predicts it.



These are Marth's basic options, plus a little mix up. I went over this weakness because Marth has no reliable way to get up like some other characters. You have to think when you are on the ledge, if you try to rush yourself and get predictable your opponent will (should) be able to destroy you.

Try some drops > double jumps to just stall yourself there.. get your opponent thinking too. I'd say two of the safest options are ledge jump and regular get up.. I also throw in the occasional roll get up and double jump nair get up. Make up your own strats. Don't be predictable.


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Your Opponent on the Ledge


Alright, now we can focus on the positive! While Marth is terrible on the ledge, he thrives when his opponent is in that situation. Marth is very good at ledge traps. When I look at some of the videos Marths post... You let your opponent get up with relative ease when you should be able to get some easy % in. Let's take a look...




Snake is really bad on the ledge, possibly worse than Marth. If Snake tries a get up attack or a regular get up simply rush him with dancing blade or a grab. You will put him right back in that bad situation.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, dtilt is also a great option to poke at their feet. If it hits their shield they will get pushed back onto the ledge.



A jump get up, especially from Snake or another large character that is easily juggled, is also an easy option for Marth to cover. Marth is great at juggling, especially on Battlefield.




Snake has a rough time getting back on stage, especially from the air. Do all that you can to make it hard for him.



Marth has a multitude of options to deal with a roll get up, dancing blade and grabs being the main ones.




Grabbing is my favorite, all you need to do is turn around and do a dthrow/fthrow (depends where he is going to end up as he rolls, but most of the time it will be behind you). Pivot dancing blade is also a great option.



Some characters are harder to ledge trap than others, Falco being one. What you want to do vs him is be just outside his ledge attack range (obviously, and keep in mind his is rather large), but still be in a position to punish his side b recovery.




Shield or jab the phantasm and punish.


You can also stand inside your opponent's ledge attack range and bait out the attack. This isn't to be abused, but the rewards are great:




I may edit this with more mix ups/trap options later, but these are the basic options for Marth when on and off the ledge. Most experienced Marth's should already know about this, but it's always a great refresher. Don't overlook this, it's important.

Know that some characters are much less susceptible to ledge traps, such as Meta Knight. He just has so many options that he really doesn't need to worry about it.

OMG thank you so much Steel! This helps a lot! You might want to add ledgehopped Airdodge->land on stage to this, it is pretty good and what I use if someone is getting ready to try to knock me back off the stage.

I thought about it, and it's an option. But that along with counter is easily punished with a grab.

True Steel, although I was more thinking along the lines of if someone was charging something (not a viable edgeguard, but people still do) or if you AD'ed and then rolled right as you hit the ground to the other side of the opponent and possibly put them on the ledge. But like I said, nice guide.

Well people don't usually do that unless it's like Ike, but i guess. And you can't air dodge > roll really without being punished. You still have landing lag.

I guess you can't do the AD->roll thing from the ledge, sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't.

Something I like to do while im on the ledge as a mix up while hanging on the ledge. Side B in the opposite Direction (to turn around) then Jump and Bair through the stage. It has more range then the DI away and Fair through the stage.

NOTE: Ledgejumping is jumping from the edge. You retain your second jump when you do this.
Ledgehopping is falling away, and then performing your midair jump to recover onto the stage at ground level. This is generally a more offensive option.

Ledgejumping is defensive, as you can jump over your opponent, footstool, airdodge, etc. You have more options.

Ledgehopping is more offensive. Your opponent is on the same level as you, as if you short hopped. However, you don't have your second jump.

Risk vs. Reward. Watch your %. Unlike every other option from the edge, ledgehopping IS NOT SLOWED DOWN WHEN YOU RISE FROM THE EDGE. ALL OTHER OPTIONS ARE.

Common reactions for obvious edgeguards.

If your opponent likes to spam attacks, ledge hop counter if the attack is slow and predictable, ledgejump airdodge if not.

If your opponent is standing and waiting, just stand normally. This is hard to punish under 100%, though it is easy to push you back onto the edge. What you should do is shield. If your opponent is slow, grab them first, but if they try to hit your shield, shield jump Fair, before getting pushed back onto the ledge. If you stand normally, lots of people will be waiting for a rising attack, and you'll be able to grab them first while they're standing there shielding, waiting for your attack to come.

If your opponent is waiting very close to the edge, Ledgehop Uair through the stage. Ledgehop Fair works too. Actually, even when catching the ledge with Dolphin Slash, it can ping your opponent for 7%. harrass your opponent while retreating back to the ledge until they give you space. From here, one option is standing normally. However, usually I weaken my opponent's shield with spaced Fairs retreating to the ledge. If they still refuse to back off, they'll be conditioned to shield, and I'll ledge hop shield breaker. This often results in a stock, and I break the most shields this way.

If they are standing out of Fair range, once again, ledgehop shield breaker. It'll surprise them with your range from the edge, and probably connect (or hit their shield, lol). Once your opponent gives you a wide enough berth, afraid of your planking options, you can just stand normally. Remember that this is good because you won't keep the ugly landing lag from Dolphin Slash.

So basically

Step 1: Harass your opponent from the edge to make them back off
Step 2: Use shield breaker, fair, stand normally, or ledgejump to get back on the stage
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit!
Step 5: STEAK!!!!

Edit: Never thought of that Hype. I'll try it's range out. Usually I Uair, but I know Bair has good horizontal AND vertical range.

Solid: if someone is charging something, either ledge attack immediately, or wait, then punish.

I'll throw one out there.

Dolphin Slash is godly for the one mistake your opponent makes during the day, that is doing a ledge attack.







= dead Snake.

Right, if your opponent is a scrub, and ledge attacks near the edge, counter is good, but shielding and then Dolphin Slashing is amazing!

*points at last part of my post

False. I have ledge traps on MK. Tribute to me cookies, and I might share.

I was referring to the ledge get up > up b . And yes you can knock Meta back out, but he is much less susceptible to them compared with other characters.

Good post steel. My favorite is baiting the ledge attack and punishing with DS.

Good stuff. I lurv the different ideas, altho I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Marth is terrible on the ledge. Yes, he has nothing too amazing, but the range of his aerials and his options overall are pretty good. I kinda like dropping off to second jump to DB or fair.

No, his options are not "pretty good." They're pretty bad... as shown in this thread.

Everyone has pretty bad problems getting off the edge, edge attacks, jumps and everything that entails can be intercepted by good players against most chars. Unless ur like a Yoshi or MK, most chars have similar problems, imo. I know it's not his strongest quality, but I think it's somewhat decent, since I'm used to many less than advantageous situations.

i gotta say up b out of shield gotta be the best one but only situational

Very helpful thread. Thanks for posting, Steel

Guys this is like Junk's double jump platform landing. I mean it's a mixup and it would only help to incorporate it into your game but since it's not SH f-air it's obviously bad.

This is junk btw

__g__ said:

guys This Is Like Junk's Double Jump Platform Landing. I Mean It's A Mixup And It Would Only Help To Incorporate It Into Your Game But Since It's Not Sh F-air It's Obviously Bad.

This Is Junk Btw

Click to expand...

Gtfo.

<3

Really nice thread Steel. I see many Marths not even attempting grabs when your opponent returns to the stage. But yeah, really good pics, they helped for people that need to actually see whats going on.

Ummm Pierce I have just burned 50 cookies to your name. May I have Marth trixies against MK now pl0x?

Good thread

Great thread as always Steel. This is very helpful to me and other marth users.

The visually aiding pictures are very well laid out. Along with good advice. Nice post!

Nice to have it written out.
It was already mentioned by pierce but occasionally shieldbreaker and counter are nice to mix in to be unpredictable and punish predictable edge guarding.

Biggest thing to add is when Marth is on the ledge he has a few things he can use to punish someone getting too close:
-Drop to dolphin slash(be sure to go back a little too if you're on final d or you'll get caught in the lip)
-Release + fair
-Release + Double jumped utilt
-Something I enjoy doing every so often Release + Forward dancing blade + fall a little + sweetspotted dolphin slash.

Either they get hit or they shield it and are scooted back a bit which gives you space against lesser ranged characters.

Also from my experience, while generally obvious, release + double jumped nair pushes them back fair enough if you space properly so that against most characters Marth will be safe. If you find you didn't space properly or they powershield, you can return back to the ledge with no harm done to you.

And lastly, another thing that I do in desperate situations on battlefield is ledgehop, wait a quarter of a second, double jump and air dodge when they attack. If you constantly DI toward the center of the stage, you'll land on the top platform immediately after your air dodge ends and while it's still not a favorable position, it's a hell of a lot better than the ledge.

Yeah, those are good. But I was simply going over most of the options if your opponent is ledge guarding while properly spaced from the ledge.

I didn't put everything down and I didn't put the best options against each character. I give the basics now I want you guys to apply it and figure out the rest for yourselves. This will take practice.

Fair enough steel. =]

Also, I realized if you release + reverse dancing blade(remember that from way back when where you start a dancing blade in one direction and spin it in the other direction in the start up frames) you can actually land on the stage while doing dancing blades. If you space it properly, I think you're out of shield grab range for most characters, but not all. Anyways, I'll let what steel said be. Good stuff though.

Eh, burnt cookies are not amazing, but I'll give you this.

If you walk up to the ledge and shield, I guarantee you almost every MK in the world will Shuttle Loop your shield. Proceed to Dolphin Slash this, or just outright counter.

If MK is recovering to the stage, and initiates a glide, please jump at him and counter. He must glide attack you, otherwise he risks getting hit out of his glide, which means that he's in a much worse position. Counter ***** this whole setting. Soon enough, MK will just glide past you, getting paranoid of counter, and then you can just Fair or Bair him out the sky.

If MK is gliding very low, I'm pretty sure you can footstool him out of his glide. Pros only. Don't get glide attacked.

Hog the edge vs. MK a lot. His broken options are a lot more limited when you can get free hits off of him being forced to land on the stage. Dolphin Slash safely, and actively, while being bold, yet accurate. Watch your DI, MK is tricky.

Watch your DI, MK is tricky.

Watch your DI, MK is tricky.

DI up by default. If you're not doing anything, you should be holding Up and toward the stage. It will safe your life.

Watch your DI, MK is tricky. (seriously can't emphasis that enough)

If you think you're about to get Daired, Dolphin Slash. It's probably your only hope.

This isn't MK exclusive, but I almost never fail to connect the first down version of Dancing Blade when I initiate it in midair coming off the edge while I'm falling. No one expects an onslaught off ledge to last this long (actually, it works on stage 90% of the time. Mindgames son.)

Stand at dtilt range. If he RDes after standing, Utilt. If he doesn't, he'll get poked.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, challenge his Fair. You'll receive damage from the first hit or two (usually no more than 4 and like 2 or 3). He'll recieve full damage, which is dramatically in your favor.

This is a good thread Steel! I learned some stuff thanks a bunch !

Good guide and I'm glad I was doing the right thing in getting up. I would throw the opponent off sometimes by using a B stall and other times I would either get up normally, do some second jump nair or fair, or push away and B-up back as a stall (making sure I still had room to get back on if they tried to edgehog me). Great guide.

Pierce7d said:

If MK is recovering to the stage, and initiates a glide, please jump at him and counter. He must glide attack you, otherwise he risks getting hit out of his glide, which means that he's in a much worse position. Counter ***** this whole setting. Soon enough, MK will just glide past you, getting paranoid of counter, and then you can just Fair or Bair him out the sky.

Click to expand...

Good idea, I'm gonna jump off the map backwards too like im going for a Bair. Who expects a Backwards counter!

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I need to work on this ^