Match-Up Week #13 : Yoshi

Blad01 · Oct 19, 2008

Week #13 : Yoshi

Yoshi, one of the underestimated characters in Brawl, that can do surprisely well. He's also one of the character that are so special that you must adapt to their playstyle (SuperArmor on 2nd jump by example). what are your advices to beat this dinosaur ?
Discuss !

Orion* · Oct 19, 2008

just do the same thing falco does. shoot lasers and chain grab. -___-

but to actually contribute.

yoshie can try and chain grab you however yoshies grab is slow, its not that hard to get grabbed.
if they pivot grab you should be away from them anyway. youre camping their ***, if you chase them and get cged thats youre own fault. just play smart and gay.

yoshies bair is answered by lasers, or pretty much yoshies everything is answered by teh lasers. ntm he cant powershield making his approach slower.

yoshies head is huuge, and hes easy to dair spam//tech chase (theres a vid on a friends wii of nc1pride getting hit like 6 times in a tournament match by this from chillin :lick:

)

i think its 60:40 or 65:35 falco.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Oct 19, 2008

You can camp well vs. Yoshi, and CG-> spike kills him at most percents.

8AngeL8 · Oct 19, 2008

Pretty easy matchup, if you ask me. You can outcamp him hard, and you beat him up close as well. Just watch out for him using the dair out of his super armor and you should be wrecking him. Pivot grab to get around his longer grab range, and he's very vulnerable to the CG -> Spike

Your reflector and lasers shut down one of his better attacks (the eggroll), so make sure to use them. Really, just do your regular Falco thing and it should be an easy matchup.

ftl · Oct 19, 2008

So has anyone here actually played against a good yoshi? It's hard to get out of theory-craft and into real matchups without that.

According to the yoshi boards, it used to be 65-35 for falco, citing the fact that it's really hard for him to deal with laserspam. Eggs are too slow to deal with it, and yoshi's shield and roll game is subpar; thus Falco can camp the hell out of Yoshi, force Yoshi to approach in the air against a grounded Falco, and Falco's got all the answers to Yoshi's approaches.

But apparently recently they're saying that their CG->fairspike on falco is good enough that it makes it even, or maybe even their advantage because of one grab = death. I don't know whether that's true or how effective it actually is, since Yoshi's best way of getting a grab is a pivot grab when on defense, but Falco shouldn't need to approach Yoshi. Also, at the right percents falco can cg->spike too.

8AngeL8 · Oct 19, 2008

No, that doesn't make it even at all. It's easier to avoid Yoshi's grab than it is to avoid the IC's, and that's not a ridiculous matchup.

One nice grab does not outweigh our superior camping and moveset. Just don't get grabbed.

Mmac · Oct 19, 2008

8Angel8, I know that you haven't played a good Yoshi in your life when you claim that EggRoll is his BEST move. Reality, it's one of his WORST moves!

I also doubt that you haven't seen Yoshi's Pivot Grab either. It's really not that easy to avoid it as you make it out to be.

Another note, Yoshi can break out of the CG with an Nair somewhere around the 20's, so your Chaingrab is pretty much nullified unless you get an early grab.

The main concern you should be going over is what if he gets close? As good as Falco's Laser spam is, you can't keep him at bay forever. You also have to be careful when using moves. One bad Reflector Kick could mean death. One poorly positioned aerial could mean death. missed smashed, death. Poor Escape, death. There's alot of things Yoshi can punish if you do a wrong move or poorly executed action, which can cost heavily.

clowsui · Oct 19, 2008

A lot of people seem to be disregarding the fact that Pillar Grab is effective on a lot of characters up until 40%-50%. For characters like Marth and Lucario who don't get CG'ed, you can pillar grab them up till 45 if you do it perfectly.

That being said, I'm not sure if it works on Yoshi...somebody test it >_>;

(btw Dthrow -> Dair -> land on opposite side and grab -> repeat is what I mean)

8AngeL8 · Oct 19, 2008

Mmac said:
8Angel8, I know that you haven't played a good Yoshi in your life when you claim that EggRoll is his BEST move. Reality, it's one of his WORST moves!

I also doubt that you haven't seen Yoshi's Pivot Grab either. It's really not that easy to avoid it as you make it out to be.

Another note, Yoshi can break out of the CG with an Nair somewhere around the 20's, so your Chaingrab is pretty much nullified unless you get an early grab.

The main concern you should be going over is what if he gets close? As good as Falco's Laser spam is, you can't keep him at bay forever. You also have to be careful when using moves. One bad Reflector Kick could mean death. One poorly positioned aerial could mean death. missed smashed, death. Poor Escape, death. There's alot of things Yoshi can punish if you do a wrong move or poorly executed action, which can cost heavily.

Try reading my post again. I said it was one of his better moves.

Pivot grab is great, it makes him a lot better. It's still avoidable. As I said before, one good grab doesn't make up for Falco's superiority in every other matter.

Mmac · Oct 20, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
Try reading my post again. I said it was one of his better moves.

Pivot grab is great, it makes him a lot better. It's still avoidable. As I said before, one good grab doesn't make up for Falco's superiority in every other matter.

But it's just that, you try to point it out as one of his better moves, when it clearly isn't. If the Yoshi you are facing uses it as a primary attack, then they deserve to die.

You say it now, but posts above, you claimed that it's easier to avoid Yoshi Grabs, than Ice Climbers, who have one of the worst grab ranges in the game.

Even if he has superiority in about everything, The fact that he can kill you just like that with basically no troubles at all should be looked into as a major factor. It's not like Yoshi is Ganondorf where his grab game is complete garbage, it will happen, possibly more common than you might think.

sandwhale · Oct 20, 2008

things that should be checked: -can yoshi really escape falco's CG
- is yoshi's CG necessarily a 0-death

It's really quite said that CGing is one of the main factors of the match-up...

illinialex24 · Oct 20, 2008

Mmac said:
8Angel8, I know that you haven't played a good Yoshi in your life when you claim that EggRoll is his BEST move. Reality, it's one of his WORST moves!

I also doubt that you haven't seen Yoshi's Pivot Grab either. It's really not that easy to avoid it as you make it out to be.

Another note, Yoshi can break out of the CG with an Nair somewhere around the 20's, so your Chaingrab is pretty much nullified unless you get an early grab.

The main concern you should be going over is what if he gets close? As good as Falco's Laser spam is, you can't keep him at bay forever. You also have to be careful when using moves. One bad Reflector Kick could mean death. One poorly positioned aerial could mean death. missed smashed, death. Poor Escape, death. There's alot of things Yoshi can punish if you do a wrong move or poorly executed action, which can cost heavily.

Yeah, its easily punished by almost all characters (pound spam with the puff). Also, I hate playing good Yoshi's. I stall so much.

wangston · Oct 21, 2008

clowsui said:
A lot of people seem to be disregarding the fact that Pillar Grab is effective on a lot of characters up until 40%-50%. For characters like Marth and Lucario who don't get CG'ed, you can pillar grab them up till 45 if you do it perfectly.

That being said, I'm not sure if it works on Yoshi...somebody test it >_>;

(btw Dthrow -> Dair -> land on opposite side and grab -> repeat is what I mean)

I always fastfall in front of them and get the grab again. Though if I went behind that limits there options. Though at a higher level of play who can't slightly move the control stick to turn around and tilt or grab.

Also when you Mmac when you say yoshi breaks the chain grab with a nair at 20% is the falco using a walking grab or a dash grab? I'm wondering if the Falco isn't timing it right and it's the same misconception that snake can pull out a nade at early %s.

Mmac · Oct 21, 2008

sandwhale said:
things that should be checked: -can yoshi really escape falco's CG
- is yoshi's CG necessarily a 0-death

It's really quite said that CGing is one of the main factors of the match-up...

It's not necessary a direct 0% Kill because if he tries it anywhere below 20 or so, but even that, he can easily edgehog for the kill.

Also when you Mmac when you say yoshi breaks the chain grab with a nair at 20% is the falco using a walking grab or a dash grab? I'm wondering if the Falco isn't timing it right and it's the same misconception that snake can pull out a nade at early %s.

The recent Falco's did Walk Grabs, though you might be right if it was due to the person not timing right...

Yojimbo · Oct 22, 2008

Mmac said:
It's not necessary a direct 0% Kill because if he tries it anywhere below 20 or so, but even that, he can easily edgehog for the kill.

The recent Falco's did Walk Grabs, though you might be right if it was due to the person not timing right...

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I might be, but isn't that chain grab to a forward air spike performed by Yoshi incredibly specific on framing? I was told within a single frame of timing to get it down? I'll ask a Yoshi main since I don't touch him.

I think the match up is 60:40 because the lack of approaches for Yoshi.

That's all I have to contribute, I'm just curious about the grab.

Mmac · Oct 22, 2008

Yojimbo said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I might be, but isn't that chain grab to a forward air spike performed by Yoshi incredibly specific on framing? I was told within a single frame of timing to get it down? I'll ask a Yoshi main since I don't touch him.

Eh, not exactly. It's not like MetaKnight's god like reflexes to spike him on release, but it still requires some timing to get down. It's basically no harder than Falco's own CG to Spike. Just Fair as soon as off Runoff

Orion* · Oct 23, 2008

Mmac said:
You say it now, but posts above, you claimed that it's easier to avoid Yoshi Grabs, than Ice Climbers, who have one of the worst grab ranges in the game.

thats more opinion for both of you. ICs grab rage does suck but they have to option to powershield and then grab.

however yoshies grab is soooo easy to punish unless its a pivot grab. and you shouldnt be running at yoshie with falco so theres no point in really mentioning it.

Mmac said:
Even if he has superiority in about everything, The fact that he can kill you just like that with basically no troubles at all should be looked into as a major factor. It's not like Yoshi is Ganondorf where his grab game is complete garbage, it will happen, possibly more common than you might think.

it is. thats why its 70:30//60:40 and not like 80:20 :lick:

Mmac · Oct 24, 2008

We both already know that Falco completely obviates Yoshi naturally, The question is, how much does this CG to Death combo effect this matchup? can you really avoid being grabbed throughout the entire matchup? Does it Nullifies his Natural Advantage against him?

Orion, you are forgetting that Falco isn't exactly lagless. Plus just because you aren't approaching, doesn't mean it's not a threat. As soon as he is close, you are in danger of being grabbed at any time until you retreat or knock him away.

Mmac · Oct 25, 2008

I dunno, should we just call it 60:40 Falco for now? We're getting nowhere, so we probably have to get back to this one at a later date....

Blad01 · Oct 25, 2008

For the moment, i would call it 60-40 Falco.

Yoshi is defintly dangerous with his grabs, aerials, and besides our chaingrab is pretty impossible to spike...

8AngeL8 · Oct 25, 2008

Haha, I finally got to play Bwett's yoshi and it was pretty brutal. I got a lot more respect for Yoshi, but I think if I had some practice against a good Yoshi it would go back to 60:40

Wafles · Oct 25, 2008

Nevermind, it seems you guys have settled on 60:40 pretty good.

I was going to suggest something more like 65:35, but eh.

gunterrsmash01 · Nov 16, 2008

CG to spike to footstool jump - yoshi is dead.

JOE! · Jan 23, 2009

ozz3000 said:
CG to spike to footstool jump - yoshi is dead.

that should get most of the cast as well from that low to the floor

I agree 60-40 falco just due to Yoshi's lack of answers to lazer camping

Teran · Jan 23, 2009

joe! said:
that Should Get Most Of The Cast As Well From That Low To The Floor

I Agree 60-40 Falco Just Due To Yoshi's Lack Of Answers To Lazer Camping

...........why?!

JOE! · Jan 23, 2009

we cant still discuss it a bit? >.>

Teran · Jan 23, 2009

JOE! said:
we cant still discuss it a bit? >.>

Nooooooo. It is done and dusted, if you wanna threadcromance a character discussion, do it on your own boards please, it saves us time and keeps the desired threads up top. Thanks for understanding.

(No anger or malice intended)

Blad01 · Jan 24, 2009

JOE! said:
we cant still discuss it a bit? >.>

Yes of course, if you have something new to add

Teran · Jan 24, 2009

Blad01 said:
Yes of course, if you have something new to add

Be careful what you wish for.
99/1 Yoshi. Yeah, they'll agree to that.

CY · Jan 24, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdLI0PfMDhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNTvltepyU&feature=related *2 stock :D*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-lznw9sht4&feature=related

here is a set against bwett, the best yoshi in TX. i think the match up is about 55-45 falco's favor.

camping is pretty effective against yoshi. just don't get grabbed by him.

Furbs · Jan 24, 2009

this matchup depends on the falco more than anything else and it can get as bad as 65-35, at the least it's a 60-40.

yoshi honestly has no answers to lazerrrsss, and if it's going to win you a match, why do anything but lazer spam and camp?

ftl · Jan 24, 2009

See.Why. said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdLI0PfMDhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNTvltepyU&feature=related *2 stock :D*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-lznw9sht4&feature=related

here is a set against bwett, the best yoshi in TX. i think the match up is about 55-45 falco's favor.

camping is pretty effective against yoshi. just don't get grabbed by him.

Based on those videos, it's probably more than 55-45. 60-40 at least.

Yoshi simply had no answers to the lasers. Just get close, shield and dodge, and hope the Falco messes up either his spacing or chooses to IAP at the wrong time? That's not a recipe for a nearly-even matchup. It's 60-40 - can be overcome with skill, but still quite noticeable.

bowz · Jan 24, 2009

Yoshi can CG>spike you easier than you can CG>spike him, lol. That might not be 100% true, but I haven't played a yoshi in quite some time.

But I'm pretty sure CG>spike can't kill yoshi. If he isn't struggling out of the chaingrab, he won't use his first jump before the spike, and will recover.

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