G&W Discussion: Edgeguarding on and offstage

Okay, quick introduction. I haven't been happy with the G&W forums as of late, so I wanted to stir up some conversation about our favorite 2D man. There are going to be a few more of these, but I wanted to start off with something useful to new users and old! Edgeguarding is one of G&W's greatest strengths, so I wanted to help people get ameliorated with his moves. Here are some quick descriptions of moves I thought of to be the most useful (Sans the Side B) to use to hurt your opponent recovering. I left out a few goodies, but you can obviously mention them for me. Nair gets honorable mention for doing 17%, Ftilt is a great Horizontal knocking back move, and Chef doesn't have to be used only onstage, FOR EXAMPLE. So discuss his moves and things you like to do with G&W.

Uair should probably not be used offstage. Period. <___________>

Here's what I got.

><!
Your awesome.
I've started to use Slow Falled Dairs, and its an awesome gimp.
But anyway, I'll brain storm some ideas, and get back to you later.

For starters, uair can be used offstage as a trap.
If you have a character with a vertical recovery, you can cannon them upward, and take advantage of the helpless animation to either push them horizontally with upb for an SD, or set them up for powerful smashes as they DI back onto the stage. Uair's also good for chancing a Star KO, juggling, or refreshing your moveset.

Ahahaha, thanks a ton Neb! As I started this an hour or so ago and rushed it, I can't say I'm pleased with the raw information presented in this. Formatting this took a bit of my time and I rushed the rest. The Intro is probably the most rushed

I was hoping that others would come in and post their thoughts, that way I would be excused for my limited coverage.

I'm especially looking forward for A2ZOMG's post on slow falled Dair, if he does make one.

lol, I like the images, so far so good, .
Anywho, so if I'm reading this correctly, the threads for discussion about G&W in general, with a set topic? And if so, is it weekly, or just until said discussions die? Nice idea, though.

Just until the discussion dies!
Also nice trick, I havent done that in a while. Just most times using Uair seems counter-productive.
I'm off to bed now, I hope I get some nice replys in the morning!

Uair is actually good for refreshing your moves that have suffered diminishing returns. 3 uairs in a row and a 1/3 has returned. Just make sure the puffs hit and you gain it.

RyN, the discussion is Edgeguarding, not in general. Uair is amazing in general, but giving your opponent a boost when they are recovering is usually bad. Sheesh man.

Bad? How can it possibly be bad? It completely messed up their timings and gives you plenty of time to set up for something else. It's also a safe bet just in case you aren't prepared for one of their aerials coming down. It stops fast falls in its tracks. It's a solid move, give it some credit.

You can also use it for edgeguarding, puff them into a stage spike.

Mr. Escalator said:

RyN, the discussion is Edgeguarding, not in general. Uair is amazing in general, but giving your opponent a boost when they are recovering is usually bad. Sheesh man.

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I was just about to say the same thing, xD.

@Ryn
And you can't stage spike with uair, unless your using the actual hitbox at high percentages, which is still very unlikely.
Stage spiking with Upb is a much better/safer route.

Neb, you'd be surprised

What are you talking about? YES, it is a solid move, but this is purely about edgeguarding. I clearly stated that it's usually bad when edgeguarding, because it is; G&W has better options by far. It stops fast fall in it's tracks? How is this relevant to a recovering opponent? Messing up their timing on what? It gives them an easier time on recovering, so it doesn't "mess" them up.In case you arent prepared for an aerial? Again, whats the relevancy?

Puffing into a stage spike isn't something that should ever happen more than once, ever.

I'm sorry, but please, I spent a deal of time on this thread so don't come in talking about stuff that doesn't relate to the topic. Neb's trick is actually a good suggestion on characters like Fox&Falco, so I appreciate his input. You're stuff, not so much.

>__>

Wow you guys really misjudge the uair. Good luck to you.

No, it's just that you come in a topic and clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Whatever you say Mr. Esc, whatever you say

I often use neutral B off the stage.

I definately agree; Fair's sex kick can be great to stop the momentum of a character... it can gimp if used correctly

Dtilt is also pretty ok at discouraging some ledge camping (notice I said SOME)

Fair is definitely always a good choice.

Spamming greenhouse at the edge can screw with some characters like Luigi, Fox, Falco, Wolf, etc. Since their return options are out-priorized, or include their hurtbox.

Double post, sorry, :/.

How does the Greenhouse do against the side B of the space animals? Never attempted it but I'm pretty sure it doesn't turn out well for Mr. Game and Watch.

RyN said:

How does the Greenhouse do against the side B of the space animals? Never attempted it but I'm pretty sure it doesn't turn out well for Mr. Game and Watch.

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It wins out. Its hard for them to get vertical again, then up and over G&W, but even if they succeed, its easy punishment.

Neb said:

It wins out.

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Through every frame? Or just the ending frames?

Y'know what's really awesome about G&W's edgeguarding? He is able to cover so much area in so little time, that EVEN IF an opponent does make it back, HE CAN STILL PUNISH THEM. Usually with his Up-B as he returns to the stage, but a hit is better than nothing.

Oh yeah, and try to jump off the stage backwards before doing a D-air edgeguard so you can go for the stagespike.

Another unorthodox tactic I want to look into is using the Up-B or U-air to edgeguard on stages with few platforms (not vs characters like Snake or G&W so much though, and this probably won't work on MK, sorry). In a number of matches I had recently, I've accidentally Up-Bed and the wind effect launched my opponent's recovery way up, made them miss the ledge, and go into free fall, which of course meant I had an opportunity to punish with other attacks on stage. I'm not sure if it's practical honestly, but it sounds like it's worth a shot as a surprise if it can be done deliberately.

Hylian said:

if you are quick you can continue uairing them to make them go out of thier glide animation.

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How exactly does that work?

Hylian said:

Uair is very useful for edgeguarding in certain situations. Only against certain characters though.

Some uses for Uair when edgeguarding:

Against falco if you ever see him charging up-B you can run off and jump back with an Uair. Falco will fly really high during his up-B and free fall which is a free anything for GW. You can keep uairing him or hit him with a smash. This is also possible on his phantasm, but harder and works on Fox as well.

Against Ness and Lucas you can run off and uair right when they up B and they usually won't be able to catch themselves and just fall to their doom. Also, if they already hit themselves you can still just uair them and they will fly high like falco allowing punishment.

Against MK if you are hanging on the ledge while they are recovering from below or horizontally you can drop straight down and uair. This can intercept thier up-B and send them super super high and if you are quick you can continue uairing them to make them go out of thier glide animation.

Saying that you should never use Uair off the stage will never let you discover how it's useful. Use all your moves in all situations, You learn new tactics by doing things that don't work. Then you apply everything you have learned and know will work in tournament to be consistant.

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Thank you for the support

one of my favorite things to do is bairing someone who's off the stage and then upb-ing them after they pop up. it works pretty well and kills them if they're close enough to the blast zone.

Hylian said:

Against Ness and Lucas you can run off and uair right when they up B and they usually won't be able to catch themselves and just fall to their doom. Also, if they already hit themselves you can still just uair them and they will fly high like falco allowing punishment.

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Why not just bucket them? As long as you time the bucket correctly, the lag shouldn't hurt your recovery at all. Of course the bucket is only useful against Ness and Lucas. I don't see any reason why not to, but that's just me. You could probably convince me otherwise, Hylian! I thought your other tips about uair were very thought-provoking.

My favourite on-stage edgeguarding move has to be the dtilt. When your opponent keeps trying to get back up, the dtilt hitbox just knocks them back out, until they finally decide they can be clever and roll behind you from the ledge. In this instance, just dsmash and punish your opponent for thinking they are smart. However I only use this as a safe edgeguarding option against characters like MK, since they are a threat in the air (not saying that we can't match his air game).

Off-stage the fair or slow-falled dair sends the opponent back out nicely. I like your idea of using judgement as an edgeguarding move Mr Esc. Sometimes when recovering and my opponent tries to edgeguard me I throw out a judgement and get a 9! It's really funny because my opponent thought he was just about to KO me, and suddenly I turn the tables around and completely demoralise him, even though it was a fluke (sorry about going off-topic).

My personal fav. offstage edge guard is the almighty pan spike. Against people with poop recoveries there is nothing more debilitating than getting hit by the pan and knocked out of your recovery range while I sit on the ledge ringing for days.

Pan spike seems like a novelty thing to me :/

Running off the stage with a fastfalled Fair can work well.

If your opponent is below the level of the stage but not right below you (he'd have to be a little ways away from the stage), then it can be a useful. I don't think it should be used all the time, more like here and there as for a surprise KO.

This is fairly situation, but I've found it useful against ROB when he recovers low.

A lot of my KOs come from offstage F-airs.

Fairs plus fastfall ftw

I think panspiking and bucketing ness's/lucus's recovery are my two favorite ways to edgeguard people.

Doesn't the lylat trio ahve invinciblity frames during their side be? Wouldn't that make them invulernable to judgement?

Good topic!

What stages do you guys think are the best for GaW's ledgeguarding game?

Characters with crappy recoveries could be taken there, for example. Rainbow Cruise comes to mind, this edgeguarding would go well with the difficult to traverse stage.

Also, what about edgeguarding in doubles? I feel like the aerial approach to it is stronger, as the other enemy won't come and inturrupt you.

Lastly, what characters are better to edgeguard onstage? What characters are better to go out against? What characters are entirely situation dependant.

Discuuus!

|Stages Best for Camping (IMO)

Pokemon Stadium 1
This is a fine stage for G&W's ledge camp to really show-out because if he sets camp on the left wing of the stage, he gets automatic terrain benefits and natural coverage.

Fire Type
The fire turf unfolds two platforms, one being the actual charring house, and the other the remains of a tree. The left wing affords G&W a protective fort, the tree being an actual part of the stage cuts off forward and belly approaching, leaving only the above. This is where G&W can capitalize on his aerials, if he needs room, he can vertically space with uair, and if they land on the platform, nair is great as a poke. You want to completely defend the above, making it difficult for them to punish you. If they get too close, you can retreat to the ledge.

Or if they decide to squeeze between the tree branches and squeeze and attack from their, your aerials can poke them from the outside. Crouching also makes it nearly impossible for any hitbox to extend out to you. The tree will also be a barrier to projectiles.

Water Type
The centerpiece of this stage is the waterwheel, if foes want to approach, they have to avoid the pinwheel, which makes temporary room for you too counter. The wheel will also push idle foes forward toward the ledge you are hiding under, making it challenging for them to space.
If they advance from above, you have the wings of the waterwheel to attack from under.

Rock Type
With the rock region, you have two options- camp by the ledge, or on the stage.
The two area's are 1) the left wing and 2) At the base of the boulder, on the right side.

On the ledge, you have a small block of room for one character, good thing your camping alone. Foes are forced to approach from above where they will have to challenge your aerials, if they go anywhere else but down, you instantly set them up for edge-guarding. They'll be hard pressed trying to return with you waiting for them and defending that tiny spot.

At the cliffs base, below all the platforms, you have an infinite, maybe two- dtilt and jab. So if they gamble squeezing in the tent with you, they're asking for free damage. As usual, the top is blocked with your aerials, the exposed right side is perfect for dtilt. Upb if your pressured.

Grass Type
Nothing out of the ordinary. Typical ledge camp.

Best On?
Universal.

Green Greens
This map is descent for camping also, you have six ledges to choose from that you can swap between at any point in time, this makes running for your opponent difficult. You can actually make it under the middle section to either side with your double jump, Upb, and some good DI. The exploding blocks have been nerfed, so Upb'ing through them will leave you unscathed. Also, the wind from Wispy Woods can tug your foe into your ledge camp.

Best On?
Characters with bad aerials, and recoveries.

Jungle Japes
This stage works just like Green Greens, six ledges, etc. But the map introduces a current, and a crocodile that instant-spikes on contact, this can work good and bad for you, use your invincibility frames smartly and you'll have nothing to worry about. Traveling from left and right wings from below on this stage is only possible if you ride the river from the right side. Attack from below the thin platforms.

Best On?
Characters with vertical recoveries, and with bad aerials.

Distant Planet
There are two good edges, the left is mediocre for stinging through the main platform, and since its on a slope, you can really punish enemy mistakes. The rain will effect your stay there, that's why you can transition to the second ledge on the upper right. Sneaking hits from from the main platforms belly, etc. The only bad part is the fat *** bulborb that waddles over to the tip of the ledge for dinner and a movie. This temporarily prohibits verticle approaches, but it only last so long before the creature turns on you, CHOMP. When he opens his mouth, a third ledge is opened, camp on his lower lip for a trip through his slimy digestive system, .

Best on?
Errr, >>.

|Other good stages that are pretty self explanatory.

• Frigate Orpheon
• Yoshi's Island Melee (On the Pipe Ledge/Center)
• Yoshi's Island Brawl
• Lylat Cruise
• Pirate Ship (Water Camping)

Why do you say that Japes is best on characters with horizontal recoveries? The fact that the stage is so close to the water keeps characters with vertical recoveries from recovering low. It doesn't really limit a horizontal recovery, since those characters can't recover from too low anyways.

FakeGeorge said:

Why do you say that Japes is best on characters with horizontal recoveries? The fact that the stage is so close to the water keeps characters with vertical recoveries from recovering low. It doesn't really limit a horizontal recovery, since those characters can't recover from too low anyways.

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Characters like Toon Link prefer to recover from beneath the stage, because that is safer. But on Jungle Japes that is impossible, so it's harder to recover. G&W might not have this problem because he can do an aerials from his up-b.