The SBR Balancing Project - Debate

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

I did ask McFox for permission to start this thread, he said it was fine but I should ask an SBR mod 1st just in case.. SBR Mod Decision Pending..

SBR Balancing Project - Debate and Discussion

As alot of people that hang around the GBD already know, certain members of the Smash Back Room have undergone a bit of a project, the purpose of which is to balance out Brawl to make it more competitive. This will mostly entail changing of character stats by the sound of it. Well, I'll throw in some quotes so you aren't misinformed:

SamuraiPanda said:
The SBR is considering the possibility of starting a project to release balance patches for Brawl using Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game (note: This is a software hack, not a hardware hack. All it requires is an SD card and a copy of Twilight Princess). The purpose of this project is NOT to change the way Brawl fundamentally works. There would be no sweeping changes to the game engine itself, no Melee air dodge, no speed increase, no increase in shield stun, no widespread increase in hitstun, etc. This project would be to simply try to balance the game as best as we possibly can. This could potentially add infinite replayability to the game, and could theoretically lead us to having one of the most balanced fighters on consoles if we continue this project for long enough.

No fighting game has ever before released balance patches throughout the game’s lifespan in order to better balance the game, and Brawl is no exception. The Smash series in and of itself is not balanced to keep in mind the competitive rulesets that we make for them. 1v1, stage bans, stage strikes, counter picking, no items… there is quite an extensive list of complicated rules we’ve created in order to make Smash competitive. In fact, we’ve done so much to the game already that it is no longer the same Smash game that was included in the box. This is an entirely new Smash that we, the smash community, have created. Personally, I think of what we’ve done to Smash is something akin to like what Counterstrike did to Half-Life. CS was merely a mod of HL at first, using the same basic engine altered in many ways using the modding programs that came with the game. By making HL run under different rules that they made up, things like having rounds and money to buy weapons every round, along with new skins for the game itself, CS became an entirely different entity that changed a game focused on FFA deathmatch not meant to be too serious into a hardcore competitive FPS. CS took off to become a far more popular multiplayer game than HL ever was by itself, and the competitive CS community is enormous even today. While we, unfortunately, may not have tools packed in by the developers to make a mod, we still did the exact same thing by making up our own rules that were not included with the original game itself. Although many of us refuse to admit it, we have already created a “counterstrike” for Smash. And now we have the opportunity to take it farther.

Basically, what he is saying here is that we have already 'technically' done so much to Smash already, that this may serve as justification for the continuation of altering the game itself. I like the example used..but whether or not Smash fits into this example should come into question. FPS's are a much different game variant (obviously) and can be improved significantly through simpler changes. Smash may undergo simple changes...

But will these changes significantly increase the level of play it that Brawl offers?

Here's what they have in mind for the changes:

SamuraiPanda said:
Let me give you an example of what I’m referring to with this project. This is a quick example (that I personally made right now) of what we could possibly do to balance DeDeDe:

---------------------------
DeDeDe

Nerfs
- Standing grab slower by ~2-4 frames.
- Knockback of Back air reduced by 20% (i.e. current knockback at 80% would now apply for 100%)
- Back air starting animation slower by ~2-5 frames
- Damage of Down throw reduced from 8% to 6%
- Spotdodge length increased by ~1-2 frames

Synopsis: DeDeDe has a harder time with KOing and racking up damage as fast as he used to with his usual methods. But he still doesn't have a difficult time with actually racking up the damage, as his main methods of doing so haven't decreased by much. Also, he is more punishable spotdodge, and his standing grab isn't as fast as it used to be (so he no longer has the infinite grab and it makes it slightly more difficult to get the grab).

Buffs
- Waddle Dee damage increased from 5% to 8%
- Waddle Doo damage increased from 7% to 12%
- Starting animation of Down B slightly faster
- Increased priority of Neutral air
- Increased damage of Neutral air from 12% to 15%
- Slightly increased knockback of Neutral air

Synopsis: Increasing his options to rack up damage with by buffing a few attacks. Also potentially giving him another viable, yet situational, KO option.
---------------------------

These sorts of changes, along with a few other additions such as no tripping and >3 minute replays, are what this potential project would try to accomplish. However, this would be an EXTREMELY difficult and long process, so if the SBR decides to take this on, then we’ll have one hell of a job to do.

---------------------------

And that is what they propose the project will achieve.

Keep in mind that this is the thread you should be posting in if you have an issue with this project. The other thread should be kept clean for programmers to discuss how they can help with the project itself. If you have a problem with it, post it here.

Topic Points:

Here are just a few things I decided to throw in to provoke some debate to get started:

-sonny- said:
Uhh ... this really seems kind of pointless to me. I can understand why some people would want to hack Brawl for wavedashing / L canceling, but changing actual properties of the characters seems a little excessive.

The suitability of wave-dashing and L-cancelling has come into question a few times in the original thread, and the decision is still in there air whether the majority of people are in favour of it.

memphischains said:
i don't see how you can even distribute the hacks on a worldwide level, nevermind the the fact that the meta-game of brawl is slowly decreasing.

i don't want you to get me wrong though, i love brawl. i would rather personally play brawl than melee. brawl is something i have come to love and accept, like you panda.

this isn't something that is going to happen though, there is a better chance of getting overswarm to stfu about meta knight, or mewtwo king getting to stfu about OS.

hacking a game should never ever be an option. there is no point to play a game that should be hacked in order to make it better.

Distribution is a big issue that needs alot of though unfortunately. It's hurdles like these that are the biggest for such a project.

Praxis said:
I LOVE the concept, but there is a serious problem with the idea, namely that the changes need to be kept absolutely minimal so that people without the hack can still practice.

For example, using the OP's example.

Reducing the knockback of Dedede's Bair, not so much as to nerf the move but enough to make it not KO as fast, and reducing the damage on his CG so as not to make it so overpowering is great. Increasing Waddle Dee knockback is fine (though, do we really want to encourage more camping in Brawl?).

But increasing the amount of frames in his spotdodge? Dedede players will be used to the timing, and different timing on his spotdodge will equate to Dedede players messing up their timing..

Character specific changes in the project are the centerpiece for the project, therefore they should also be a topic of debate. Who should be balanced more? What standard will people be balanced to? And which characters will be NERFED?

I guess I may have to update this if people pick this thread up, but to be honest, people only want thier opinions heard in threads they think people will notice. Like I've said before, people usually want attention, not substance or debate. So if you legitimately have opinion on this topic you wish to share for reasons other than soaking up 15 seconds of fame, feel free.

Just don't mess up the other thread.

DrAwesome · Oct 20, 2008

doh, i just posted in the original thread...

complexity1234 · Oct 20, 2008

If it were me, I wouldn't really do any nerfing that much, unless its infinities and stuff. Seems the wrong way of going about it.

Just make other characters and their attacks better so they can have overpowered moves of their own

and keep up with the top characters. Thats what makes those characters fun to use. Players would be more willing to play this mod if Snake/Game & watch were the same, and then captain falcon/Link became beastly. No ones gonna wanna play a crappy version of their character.

So basically. Leave top characters very good with no nerfs. Buff up the middle and low range characters to the top !

Imagine bowser being heavier with buffed moves and super armor. Sonic with more priority. Jigglypuff with her Melee rest and some other buffs. Ganondorf and Link with better recoveries. Samus with a charge shot that can actually kill Lol. Fixing tether recoveries, etc.

So many good ideas.

(imo though -> dededes chaingrab is a bit overpowered since it never ends.. at LEAST have it end by 45 % or something like falcos. Also, make it so aerial attacks for all characters stop MK's tornado, kind of like how in MK dittos, pretty much all his attacks can stop a tornado. The tornado is HARDLY overpowered in this matchup for example)

Xenesis · Oct 20, 2008

As a fun aside for smash? Sure.

As a tournament standard? It's a laughable idea.

complexity1234 · Oct 20, 2008

yea its hard to implement since everyone plays brawl like it is now. With counter-strike, everyone was pretty much forced to play the newer patched versions. Thats the biggest difference with this thing.

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

complexity1234 said:
yea its hard to implement since everyone plays brawl like it is now. With counter-strike, everyone was pretty much forced to play the newer patched versions. Thats the biggest difference with this thing.

And the fact that control functions aren't exactly changed. If the patches of CS made the bullets curve or inflict more damage, there could be a problem. People could still practice without it. Would that be possible with this project?

Falcord · Oct 20, 2008

I am absolutely with Complexity.

Nerfing is definitly NOT the way to go. Nerfs make people sad, as well as wasting their previous practice time (as those can mess with their timing, like someone suggested).

Instead, buffing the low tiers will please everyone. No ganondorf player is going to complain about his losing his timing if they have a new Fair with half the lag, and Link mains are not going to miss the old recovery when they can cover the same distance than toon link, or when they lose the helpless animation after it.

Also, the top tiers can't complain because the low characters have come to their level: They'll just have more diversity of situations and will have to sweat a bit more to adapt to every situation.

So, in conclusion.

Don't nerf the good ones, buff the low and mid tiers until everybody is at least at the level of Marth

This way, even though the feel will be different after the patches, people will be pleased to practice, because their favourite characters got BETTER.

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

Hmmm everyone the same as Marth? (goes looking for some info before continuing)

Okay, that means that there will be only 7 levels of difficulty (assuming you put someone else higher than MK, yes this will be mega-flawed).

I think this game would need to more balanced then just 7 tiers. (I know matchups need to be accounted for).

Maybe at at least 10?

complexity1234 · Oct 20, 2008

He meant marth is pretty high up and has hardly any bad matchups in general, and has alot of neutral ones. Which is how it should be for every character in the game. It would be nice to never HAVE to change characters because of counters

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

complexity1234 said:
He meant marth has hardly any bad matchups in general, and has alot of neutral ones. Which is how it should be for every character in the game. It would be nice to never HAVE to change characters because of counters

So yer everyone nuetral with each other?
But perhaps that is too balanced? There is always a need to pick a poo character to show off

I think there does need to be some level of differentiation in matchups in this possible project.
Plus that level of nuetrality is near impossible but yer. Would make competition alot more skill based I suppose.

complexity1234 · Oct 20, 2008

It will never be perfect but it can be super close!

I prefer neutral matchups for everyone that way you lost because you got out skilled by the other player, not because one character was better than the other, or because of counters.

Theres always counter-picking stages

Revven · Oct 20, 2008

This probably won't ever actually work because there's a limit to how many lines of code you can have per game. 256 lines is the limit, I don't think a "patch" of what Panda is proposing is really possible unless every change to each character was either 10 lines or below of code.

If you just buffed Low Tier and maybe some of the Middle Tier, then I could see this becoming more of a possibility. But, nerfing/buffing each character? Doubtful if it's like 20 lines per character.

chic · Oct 20, 2008

i can't believe SBR is playing into this hype. i'm so disappointed in them... they can't really expect everyone to update their brawl to this version and agree with it aswell! if you change the game at best 60% of the community will agree with the update. this will SPLIT the community. MK mains are pissed off that they have to learn new chars because of the potential ban... how is the entire community going to feel having to relearn a new game after a year of playing this one? and the whole cs comparision is so silly and this is coming from someone who played since cs was played on the won servers and played competively in 1.5 and 1.6 and saw the evolution the game took. in cs everyone uses the same few guns it all comes down to raw skill. in brawl people use 30+ chars! how can you compare the two?!?! also each updated version caused much debate and even made some people quit and some not even moved on to the next version. theres probably 20% of the cs community that is playing a version other than 1.6 so if you want to see the brawl community split then this is a good idea. CS was meant to be modded, brawl wasn't!!! i use luigi so im one of the chars most affected by DDD's chaingrab and his attacks in general, but i would rather learn how to properly play and beat DDD and other overpowered characters which IS POSSIBLE than go through all this garbage. please don't do this SBR!

please leave the game how it is.

Wind Owl · Oct 20, 2008

Good points.

Amide · Oct 20, 2008

I really feel like saying this is the dumbest thing the SBR has ever considered, but all I need is an SD card and TP. This would make the game loads more fun, and I could main puff again

.

z3r0C0oL · Oct 20, 2008

if this ever goes mainstream....

remove D3 infinite grabs, tone down G&W turtle, Snakes tilts, add a bit of lag to Meta's attacks to make them punishable, Pika has a 80%+ chaingrab on Fox, remove that, Zss can infinite or near infinite Spacies with down smash, fix that. Combo or chain grab to 40ish percent isnt bad, but higher and its plain ridiculous.

and make it so Pokemanz trainer can stay as one Pokemanz if he chooses.

and give Falcon some balls again.

Napilopez · Oct 20, 2008

They were discussing having a smash bootloader channel, which could potentially handle updates automatically. Thats a big plus. Still don't like the idea though. There are too many factors to balance, and I think in the end its still won't end up as balanced as one may like. And what if its too balanced? I dunno =/

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

As well as character bias and lots of threads pleading the makers to change this and this in character X.

Criosphinx · Oct 20, 2008

I am simultaneously amazingly surprised, and utterly disappointed in the SBR. Their willingness to fundamentally alter the game for "the greater good" even on a theoretical level, while lacking the resolve to take even the simplest steps to increase the metagame; that is, to ban MK is ironic, if not laughable.

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

MK Banning is a side note in this. They never claimed this was the substitute for that, but you raise a valid point.

Rohins · Oct 20, 2008

This is an excellent idea. I have a lot of experience with Samus. The following changes I feel would be fair. The idea is to maintain the style of gimper not focussing on improving kill moves. I'm uncertain with how many frames or how much % would be involved with the alterations but that could be tested and tweaked.

Samus

Nerfs
- Make her grounded upB easier to SDI out of. (not sure what is involved to do this)
- Slight decrease in upB height
- IF (lcancel): add lag to aerials

Synopsis:
Samus will have to be more careful recovering and gimping. Hitting with a grounded upB allows the opponent to react rather than being stuck in it. With lcanceling, there is no reason for her aerials to have such little lag.

Buffs
- Increased hitbox size fsmash
- Increased hitbox duration fsmash
- Increased hitbox duration bair
- Increased knockback of Neutral air
- Increased knockback of Charged Blast

Synopsis:
Samus' fsmash currently is broken in the sense that it sometimes goes through people without triggering a hit. I believe this is the combination of the size of fsmash's hitbox (both height and width) and the duration the hitbox is out. The buffs for bair and nair would allow for better gimp options off level. Increasing the knockback of charged blast would allow her a kill move outside of gimping.

Potential Move Alerations
- Bombs exploding on contact
- Ability to act when bouncing off bombs
- Changing dsmash knockback to pull opponent behind her

Synopsis:
These buffs I think would add more options. Bombs currently have a use, but it is detrimental to allow yourself to get hit by the bomb. I don't believe making bombs explode on contact would make her imbalanced. Allowing dsmash to knock people behind her would make for more gimp setups. I don't know how feasible these changes would be.

---

These are some changes that I thought of off the top of my head. I would like other Samus mains to take a look at this and see what they agree with / disagree with. Perhaps some alterations on her throws but I don't know what would be reasonable or what is doable.

tha_carter · Oct 20, 2008

Nice list Rohins, although i dont think ANY nerfing should be done to samus.

But youre in the wrong thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200495

Tabaris · Oct 20, 2008

The ****storm this topic is creating is a perfect sign that the smash community is not ready for something like this...

The only way I can see this as being effective would be a general Consensus from smashboards in agreement for it, even then the matter is debatable. As with many things.

Greenstreet · Oct 20, 2008

I'm gonna go ahead and post one of my posts from the other thread here... maybe that'll answer some questions.

Greenstreet said:
@Almost everyone Last time I check the OP, this was a thread asking for help with a potential project that the SBR is wanting to work upon.

Potential: po·ten·tial /pəˈtɛnʃəl/ [puh-ten-shuhl]

–adjective 1. possible, as opposed to actual: the potential uses of nuclear energy.

This means it isn't a sure thing guys. I don't think it deserves this much negative attention due to it just being potential.

SBR: Smash Back Room, only members that have shown considerable knowledge or skill (either by posting intelligently or by tournament placement) are permitted to read and discuss in this forum. The Smash Back Room is most famous for producing a tier list every year or so.

This means that they are probably more qualified to make a decision regarding the game than you Mr John N00by N00b. Lol, just kidding. What I am getting at here is they aren't exactly stupid. They don'y lunge into decisions without thinking. Time has been put into planning whether to do this or not. So cut them some slack. The topic doesn't ask for opinion or debate on the topic, but if your desperate, apply to be a debater. What it is asking for is help... and ranting about how it shouldn't be done doesn't fill that requirement. Sorry, better luck next time. I'm sure it may have already met some debate back in the SBR, but here, it's looking for interested people to help. Not whingers.

Sure, they may change the game up, and it may suck afterward. Or it might be awesome. If it sucks, scrap it. If it's awesome, play it if you want to. No-one is forcing this to effect you, so stop acting like it is.

</mini-rant>

EDIT: Holey dooley, I am never going to post again. 1337.

and

Greenstreet said:
Also:

Ultimately, if the majority of this community hates it, (if it even comes out) it won't be played and we'll jump back to the normal one. Where's the issue here? How will a disaster (in reality) occur? No one is forcing you to play it (assuming it will one day exist).

Kappie · Oct 20, 2008

to even think about changing a game... hilarious

Dismojoe · Oct 20, 2008

There needs to be some type of legitimate way to change Brawl without violating Nintendo's copyright laws or whatever other laws. There is no possible way that a company like MLG would host a "hacked" version of Brawl even if it made the game better simply because it would be a terrible business risk.

That being said...Nintendo needs to make some type of legitimate Gameshark for the Wii that can change coding in games.

DKKountry · Oct 20, 2008

I imagine a scene where two players are sitting at a tournament after one of them just getting his tail handed to him. There is a bit of silence before the loser turns and asks "are you sure this Wii has ALL the recent updates?"

Also, Gods help us if a new code gets released on the day of someone's tourney; the room would instantly be divided between those who want to stop or restart the tourney after updating all the Wiis and those who want to just keep going with the tourney lol.

Seriously though, I don't really have much of an opinion on this (since It's not apparent just how SBR would be wanting to go about this yet) except that I think that we already have enough division between Melee purists and Brawl players, I don't look forward to the possibility of another thing to further divide this community. As far as the project itself, it could be fun or interesting, no doubt, but it will cause division if implemented too heavily into the tourney scene.

Metroid_01 · Oct 20, 2008

Rohins said:
This is an excellent idea. I have a lot of experience with Samus. The following changes I feel would be fair. The idea is to maintain the style of gimper not focussing on improving kill moves. I'm uncertain with how many frames or how much % would be involved with the alterations but that could be tested and tweaked.

Samus

Nerfs
- Make her grounded upB easier to SDI out of. (not sure what is involved to do this)
- Slight decrease in upB height
- IF (lcancel): add lag to aerials

Synopsis:
Samus will have to be more careful recovering and gimping. Hitting with a grounded upB allows the opponent to react rather than being stuck in it. With lcanceling, there is no reason for her aerials to have such little lag.

Buffs
- Increased hitbox size fsmash
- Increased hitbox duration fsmash
- Increased hitbox duration bair
- Increased knockback of Neutral air
- Increased knockback of Charged Blast

Synopsis:
Samus' fsmash currently is broken in the sense that it sometimes goes through people without triggering a hit. I believe this is the combination of the size of fsmash's hitbox (both height and width) and the duration the hitbox is out. The buffs for bair and nair would allow for better gimp options off level. Increasing the knockback of charged blast would allow her a kill move outside of gimping.

Potential Move Alerations
- Bombs exploding on contact
- Ability to act when bouncing off bombs
- Changing dsmash knockback to pull opponent behind her

An important note:

Thinkaman said:
3. There is a limit to how much we can change at once, due to only being able to load a finite amount of code. Currently that's 256 lines... There are 39 characters in the game, so that's about 6 lines of code for each. And that's BEFORE any major global changes, stuff like no tripping takes a few lines too! The wavedashing codes (obviously we'd never use such, but as an example) are over 80 lines!

Only the bigger things could change, and it sounds like hitbox hacking is mostly going to be out by the same post.

I like the idea of keeping her focused towards going off the stage for alot of kills. It certainly makes sense to improve nair to give Samus more kill options off the stage for this reason. Charge shot should become the projectile it deserves to be and receive an improved knockback. Also, I am inclined to say Samus needs one strong kill move on the stage; up-tilt may fit the bill for that given its speed and difficulty of use.

As much as I would love to change bombs, I am not sure if there is enough space for the code to do so.

edit:

DKKountry said:
I imagine a scene where two players are sitting at a tournament after one of them just getting his tail handed to him. There is a bit of silence before the loser turns and asks "are you sure this Wii has ALL the recent updates?"

Also, Gods help us if a new code gets released on the day of someone's tourney; the room would instantly be divided between those who want to stop or restart the tourney after updating all the Wiis and those who want to just keep going with the tourney lol.

That is an easy fix regardless. If there they somehow come up with the ability to stream the updates straight in, then its a null point; if they do not, the tournament director will just set the rules for which revision to use. It would rarely be more than a few days behind.

Metroid_01 · Oct 20, 2008

Edit: woops >.<

Devil7 · Oct 20, 2008

I honestly don't see what is so ZOMG bad about changing the game. Blizzard releases patches for Starcraft to balance the three races out, so what is so wrong about this.

Yes I understand the fact that it will be hard to get out, hence why he said it was a hurdle, not an impassable barrier. Honestly if the right people work really hard together I could really see this happening.

But like Greenstreet said if the majority of people don't want it, it won't happen.

Personally, I think that only character balance should be a part of the patches, and the inclusion of l-cancel and wave dash should left out. I like brawl for brawl, not for melee 2.0 with more characters. If I wanted to play melee, I would play melee.

As far as the nerfing, I really don't care one or the other. If they buff ganny's attacks but nerf some other move, I wouldn't really care, just as long as all characters come out to be balanced.

Luigi player · Oct 20, 2008

I don't like it at all. Leave the game how it is.

I hate Dededes infinite on DK, Luigi (and others).
I hate Marths infinite on Ness and Lucas.

But leave the game as it is!

That would really suck.

I know it's fun and exciting to change a few things and balance the game better. (I'm making games too and it's really fun!)

But that just wouldn't be right. That's going too far. STOP.

Vulcan55 · Oct 20, 2008

People against hacking for balance probably don't play many PC games.
You have to realize that a successful modding community does wonders for a games lifespan.

Grunt · Oct 20, 2008

lol Quake.

Devil7 · Oct 20, 2008

Vulcan55 said:
People against hacking for balance probably don't play many PC games.
You have to realize that a successful modding community does wonders for a games lifespan.

Exaclty, like I said look at Starcraft.

They keep saying its wrong. WHY?

Why is it wrong to do what several other competative games already do?

Delvro · Oct 20, 2008

I would LOVE to see patches for Brawl. I think at the current metagame, some balance is desperately needed.

Having said that, I can't support hacks for Brawl, even though I want to. I've hosted bi-yearly Brawl and Melee tournaments in the past in Lexington, with my last one having 44 people compete. As such, we typically need 3-4 Wii consoles, and it is often very difficult to find enough people to donate them. With a hacked Brawl, we could need 3-4 Wii consoles, TP games, AND SD cards. I don't know ANYBODY that owns an SD card.

Pile that on the fact that a hacked Brawl would be difficult to maintain as a standard of play around the world (Tournament organizers who disliked it could simply refuse to run it, creating a schism within the competitive smash community), and that an unfathomable people would begin whining to the SBR to patch their favorite character (look at how WoW players treat Blizzard for a good demonstartion of this).

I think there are too many problems for it to work. But if a serious effort is actually made, I will give my best support for this hack, and possibly even run tournaments with it, if it becomes a national standard.

Devil7 · Oct 20, 2008

I think we should start calling it modding/patching instead of hacking. To many negative connotations with "hacked brawl"

"Hacking" reminds me of Diablo II and Halo online. (shudders)

Wind Owl · Oct 20, 2008

No. Modding gives the connotation of physical modification to the console, which we don't really want people to infer.

Tabaris · Oct 20, 2008

Vulcan55 said:
People against hacking for balance probably don't play many PC games.
You have to realize that a successful modding community does wonders for a games lifespan.

This is true, but most modding communities don't mod to set a standard for competitive play, which I believe is a fair speculation for the argument against this (one I'm not in agreement with, but that's not the point).

Most mods are done during offline play or open battle net etc. (hero editor).. Oblivion is also a great example of a modding community, but at the same time Oblivion cannot be placed in the situation brawl faces with these modifications; due to Brawl being a competitive game.

Crow! · Oct 20, 2008

I've spoken in defense and support of modding, and I'll do it again. There is much to be gained and precious little to be lost, since people who don't like a mod can just not play it. If a community as close to official as the SBR were to take on a project, that could solve the cohesiveness problem often confronting modders, where they have to compete with many other mods for overall popularity and wind up getting too few players per mod to be healthy.

While I agree that some people may be irritated with nerfs, it gives twice as much flexibility to actual change being implemented. A properly applied nerf could bring a character back into the overall style he's supposed to have; for and example, MK is supposed to have a hard time scoring KOs, but with a couple extremely safe and effective kill moves, that just isn't the case; just reduce the knockback on his kill moves and he still plays better than other characters, but actually NEEDS to play better than other characters to keep up with scored kills.

One thing I suggest anyone working on such a project keep in mind: don't over-balance individual characters! The worst thing that could happen is that each character has all of his/her great moves nerfed and weak moves buffed to the point where even though we have 35+ different characters, every character feels more or less the same as the next. If anything, the characters that need help should have their few good moves/traits powered up a little bit more to let their style come through clearly.

Ussi · Oct 20, 2008

I support the only buff characters. More fun when everyone is broken than everyone sucks. This will need lots of testing though ;0

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