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Unofficial Stage Discussion with new Counter Factor ruleset

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
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* This thread is NOT SBR approved * (But would be if I was in the SBR.)

The New List:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Bridge of Eldin
Hanenbow
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Hyrule Temple
New Pork City
75m

Banned stages:

Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

The New Rules:
The reason why there aren't any starter stages is because some characters do very well on starter stages which gave them the advantage in the beginning stages of brawl's meta game because a starter stage always had to be picked at least once in a set. All stages are treated as counter stages giving more strategic elements to the game, preventing ledge camping for stages with no way to edgehog (Ex: Mute City), preventing projectile camping (Ex: Rumble Falls), helping characters with bad recoveries (Ex: Pirate Ship), preventing chaingrabs.(Ex: Hanenbow) and so on, for whatever tactic is a strong element in your opponents character and/or playstyle you can limit it or stop it completely from happening.

Players Stage Choice:
This new format of rules can be called "The Counter Factor Ruleset." The players have a choice to play the old fashioned way of rock, paper, scissors, and whoever wins picks their first stage they want to play on, or the players can both agree on a stage. However, the player who loses at rock, paper, scissors gets to ban a stage from use. Player 1 won at Rock/paper/scissors, player 2 bans a stage from use. If player 2 banned the stage that player 1 wanted to play on, P1 has to choose his second choice for a stage. They play that stage.
If P1 wins, P2 picks next stage WITHOUT a ban, so P2 can pick any stage he wants, thats not banned. If P2 wins the first round, P1 gets to pick a stage, the loser always gets to pick the stage he wants EXCEPT for round 3. Stage bans are used for the first round picks and the final round picks, if it goes to round 3. Here is a good example of the rules.

Rules:
1. No one particular stage can be used twice in a set.

2. Your first round ban stage remains banned throughout the whole entire set. (Ex: Battlefield.)

3. When you lose, you get to ban a second stage from the set, which elminates 2 of your opponents best stages. (Ex: Battlefield and now Lylat Cruise)

4. Your opponent selects his third choice of a stage for the final round of round 3. Making it more fair since you eliminated his 2 best stages and he can't choose the stages he has already played you on, limiting his options even more, making it more fair game.


Why is this Necessary?:
It adds more strategic elements to the game, and forces players to adapt. Also, the stages that were banned before were good counter stages against the top tier characters, giving other characters a chance who don't have a good recovery or whatsoever. Starter stages were used once in every set or even more, making certain characters perform better than other characters who do not do so well on starter stages, thus giving them the advantage.
The difference is, let each player play on the stage they want according to the Counter Factor ruleset. With this ruleset added to brawl, you can really step up your game by making smart stage decisions preventing so called cheap tactics. This is merely embracing the diversity of the stages in brawl to help improve the strategic elements of brawl.

The Banned Stages:
These stages are banned because of a huge luck factor, or easy accidental suicides that can drastically change the tide of battle, or one hit stage assisted KO's which merits a ban.

Attention tournament hosts:

I ask for tournament hosts to please try out the Counter Factor ruleset and you'll see a positive change in the meta game for brawl or just try it out at least and see how you and all the local smashers like it. Give it some time and you'll see the benefits from these new rules. I can see why people are being negative about this, because they are not used to this, but that's like anything in life that is new, you have to test it out and work with it, then you will see the advantages and start to adapt with the new situation improving your mind because now you learned how to adapt to something new, thus making you a better player at this game and thus improving the players skills in your local smash community and the metagame.

Old List: Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
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What? This is official?

Green Hill Zone? Onett? Mario Kart? Mushroomy Kingdom? LEGAL? What kind of alternate universe is this?

Surely this isn't SBR...?
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
What? This is official?

Green Hill Zone? Onett? Mario Kart? Mushroomy Kingdom? LEGAL? What kind of alternate universe is this?

Surely this isn't SBR...?
This is as official as it gets. You think I would do all that hard work of posting all this information for nothing?
 

OmegaXXII

Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
21,468
Location
Houston, Texas!
Has the SBR reviewed this?, much less accepted this yet?

anyway, why isn't 75m under banned stages, surely you don't believe it won't because it has a highly irregular design, also most fighting centers and takes place around top-right corner.

Also, i highly disagree with Hyrule Temple because of it's immense size and the advanges it gives characters (fast in particular) with projectiles such as Fox, also because it gives a distinct advantage to characters who have the most knockback in the upwards direction, but completely devalues a character whose knockback is in side to side directions.

this is a bit of my thought, I will post more on this later....
 

Barge

All I want is a custom title
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
7,542
Location
San Diego
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Bridge of Eldin
Hanenbow
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Hyrule Temple
New Pork City
75m


FAIL
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Messages
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3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
If you don't like to play on a certain stage you can ban your opponent from playing it for a round. With the new rule set more diverse stages are allowed, this prevents hard to beat strategies like ledge camping, which many people are currently complaining about. Diversity is emphasized more because if you play against a chain grabbing DDD, you can counterstage to Hanenbow, Norfair, etc. This adds a strategic element to the game and prevents certain characters from dominating the tournament scene.
Playing against a known spammer? You can counterstage him to the stage you like if you lost last round. For the first round you can choose what stage you want to play on, if he bans the first stage you pick, have a secondary counterpick stage in mind.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Or better yet you can have all those stages banned cause they're extremely unfair and unfit for competitive play (cept Port Town)
You can't be serious. Way to be extremist. I mentioned ALOT of reasons why we need certain stages in competitive play. The extremely unfair stages are the ones that are banned by the SBR.
Give it some time and you'll see the benefits from these new rules. I can see why people are being negative about this, because they are not used to this, but that's like anything in life that is new, you have to test it out and work with it, then you will see the advantages and start to adapt with the new situation improving your mind because now you learned how to adapt to something new, thus making you a better player at this game.
 

rocker1356

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Northern Utah
I do not agree at all about the Green Hill Zone. I use Sonic sometimes and you can just rush around throwing people off of the screen.
 

zoodlebeans

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Texas, best state evar
You can't be serious. Way to be extremist. I mentioned ALOT of reasons why we need certain stages in competitive play. The extremely unfair stages are the ones that are banned by the SBR.
Give it some time and you'll see the benefits from these new rules. I can see why people are being negative about this, because they are not used to this, but that's like anything in life that is new, you have to test it out and work with it, then you will see the advantages and start to adapt with the new situation improving your mind because now you learned how to adapt to something new, thus making you a better player at this game.
Thank you! I completely agree. I can't stand it when people complain when we play stages that weren't "tournament official" during leisurely play. Sure it's going to take some time for everyone to get used to this HUGE list of playable stages, but don't shoot it down before you even try it. :dizzy: I've already come to appreciate the diversity of official stages now, it just gives some more people a little more of a fair game..

Of course there are some stages that kinda blew my mind when I first saw the list.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
2,965
I've yet to see evidence on this being either SBR approved or constructed by the popular opinion of the majority of smashers.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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I've yet to see evidence on this being either SBR approved or constructed by the popular opinion of the majority of smashers.
They both go hand in hand together. This definitly wasn't all my opinion, otherwise, I'd have Port Aero town banned, from the cars killing you at 50%. But its good against countering ledge campers or edgehog camping, I guess thats why it made it on the list.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,965
What I am asking is...How was this list developed?
I personally think this list would be very fun...
 

Jaxyl

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Norman, OK
Ladies and Gentlemen, this is a troll. The troll is rare creature, only coming out when it believes it has a story so believable that you can't fathom why it wouldn't be true. Well I hate to tell you, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's a duck.

If it looks like a troll and sounds like a troll, it's a troll.

Not to mention that SBR is very articulate in which they announce information and they never like to be redundant. What I am getting at is that if this troll were right, then the SBR Recommended Rules List would have changed to reflect the "new" rules. Please note that there is no change or even new thread that would lead one to believe that our troll is correct.

So essentially, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!

-edit- The troll might respond to me saying that "SBR hasn't gotten around to it yet", but when have we known SBR to never release a new rules/stage/tier list in a sticky and the instant they finalize the list?
 

Ragnar0k

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
3,422
Location
Skyrim
This is stupid. This will just make DDD the best character in the game. Too many walk off stages.
 

ChronoPenguin

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Location
Brampton Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
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Your ban rule displeases me....


I iz fine with skyworld and port town.....but...but.....75m...mushroomy kingdom? Oh lawd.


Why is there never a stage ruleset where certain characters are just flat out banned from playing on a stage and so, if someone uses that character, *insert* stage is automatically banned >.>

That would be so awesome -_-
 

Ruse

Fox
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
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Location
Pensacola, FL
Hilarious. This isn't a sticky.

Use logic and realize that this is a troll/joke or get ANGRY, even though he's not in the SBR. The choice is yours.
 

Eraserhead

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Winnipeg
Looks like the community doesn't accept your list, and I think most of the stages aren't good for tourneys anyway. gg...
 

x9whitey9x

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
291
Location
Virginia
So you think that being able to ban just one of those stages per round is good enough?
What if you're playing a Falco? You can ban Bridge of Eldin, but still get laser locked on either mushroomy kingdom or other walkoffs that aren't banned.
That list is not fair in the least, even though it has some more choices. Those that give advantages tend to give them to characters that do not need them.
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
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Biggest flaw: the person who wins rock-paper-scissors gets to choose TWO stages in the set (assuming a game 3). Do you not realize how huge an advantage being able to select a stage is?
 

CaliburChamp

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Biggest flaw: the person who wins rock-paper-scissors gets to choose TWO stages in the set (assuming a game 3). Do you not realize how huge an advantage being able to select a stage is?
If the player 1 wins rock/paper/scissor and then loses in round 1, he will be able to choose again without a stage ban. If player 1 wins round 2, player 2 gets to pick the final stage without a stage ban. If it goes to round 3, the player who loses round 2 gets to choose the final stage in round 3, that is fair because the other player got to choose TWO stages, one of them which he lost on that was his secondary counterpick choice, and one that he won on that was his other counterpick choice. Therefore it makes it fair. This is the clarification of the rules of stage picks.

1. The loser always picks the stage.
2. You get one choice of stage bans if you lose in rock paper scissors.
3. Wait for your opponent to say what stage he want to play on, then he chooses, from there you can ban the stage he mentioned or agree to play it, and if that happens the player has to choose his second choice, and you can't ban his second choice, only his first choice.
4. Stage bans are for the first round only to make it more fair.
 

AlphaZealot

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That doesn't go against anything I said; the person winning rock-paper-scissors has an enormous advantage. One stage ban does not make up for it.
 

CaliburChamp

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That doesn't go against anything I said; the person winning rock-paper-scissors has an enormous advantage. One stage ban does not make up for it.
If the player wins rock, paper, scissors and also won the 1st round. The loser picks a counterstage with no bans, that makes up for it. Then he wins that stage so the rounds are tied. Now at this point AZ, I can see where I messed up. The player who won the first round, gets to pick the final round with no stage bans, that is an enormous advantage.
However, whoever loses the previous rounds gains another choice for a stage ban. Here is the explanation of how to make these rules more fair so the final round stage will be fairly picked.

Rules:
1. No one particular stage can be used twice in a set.

2. Your first round ban stage remains banned throughout the whole entire set. (Ex. Battlefield.)

3. When you lose, you get to ban a second stage from the set, which elminates 2 of your opponents best stages. (Ex: Battlefield and now Lylat Cruise)

4. Your opponent selects his third choice of a stage for the final round of round 3. Making it more fair since you eliminated his 2 best stages and he can't choose the stages he has already played on, limiting his options even more, making it more fair game.
 

AlphaZealot

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I think you need to realize most players easily have at least 5 stages they prefer playing on for their counterpicks.
 

CaliburChamp

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I think you need to realize most players easily have at least 5 stages they prefer playing on for their counterpicks.
If you realized you might of banned the wrong stages against your opponent, and you lost the previous round, you can use your secondary characters that may do well on that stage if your main character isn't good on that particular stage.
 
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