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The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
{NEW!}**Approaching Options (nondatewise)**

(If anything needs to be added or changed, please PM me.)

Introduction

This Thread is (hopefully) will be the location of possibly the chat and collection of ideas that pertain to Metagame or anything else we bring up.

Whats Going on this time around, Credit goes to Lord of the Morning.
*attempts to bump (50% chance of epic fail)*

This is a good thread, and the Lucario boards seem a bit short on good threads atm. Is tedward still active? Because we ought to bring this thread back and talk about approach options as a new subject.
The old stuff
vvv
Now, I felt that the Tl;Dr bit here before was unnecessary. So thats gone. Now Phil is the brains of The OLD idea, and all credit should go to him for this.

Wow, this thread is collecting hypertext dust on it.

I has an idea: Next discussion (or even what to make this thread into): Discussion on how to deal with the most annoying/gay/broken moves in the game. How does that sound?
Thats what WAS going on.

Feel free to add on to any of this.

+++All collected Info is at the bottom of the OP sectioned off in my tempt of making boxes.+++

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Rotation 1, The 3 Carios of Lucario

This is not how these Lucarios play. Theres a thread on that all ready. This is about how YOU the player does things while playing these styles of play.

Agressive- Tends to frighten or overwhelm the other player with spaztic playing. More prone to risk taking. Utilizes the fact Lucario is weak at low %'s and makes up for doubling HpS (hits per second). Most players don't see this kind of lucario, and don't know how to combat it.

Neutral- The most commonly seen lucario, partly because most new to lucario will tend to like this place. This is you back-and fourth play type. Wont take control of the match, but wont be a push-over either. Also the fall to or back point from Defensive or Agressive.

Defensive- Arguably thee best way to play lucario. These players will slow the game down to their own speed, and by allowing the other person to attack all the time, and miss, and break their morale. Think Invisible gamer wall. Also a great time to find out the other players response moves and best way to counter act them. Once the other player has been read, then going aggressive to apply pressure to the weak points, and win the game.

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Rotation 2, FP and DT

(the titles here are not actually the title of the Thread they come from)

Force Palm-
The 5th grab of lucario. Commonly known as a slow and bad move, but chainable.
This however is not the case anymore.

FP and FPG is a "Get what you give" move. And is to be used the same way in a match too. Aka, Sparingly. If you spam it to get those chain grabs or just to use it, your predictability will soar sky high. FP can trip, but not as often as one would like.

FPG is great and gets the job done. If you miss there is a chance to hit them with the flame, that is a chance, and not 100%. What most lucario's have found to get a FPG is to either pull it out of a chain ( A>A>FPG) or (U-tilt>FPG). Or just to run up to them and hope for the best (Bumrushing).

Overall, FPG is the better move to use. equal risk to equal gain.

Double Team-
Lucario's biggest risk move. REALLY big risk, meh to KO return.
not the best move, due to its outstanding lag. But it is lucario's biggest hit box, and its reversible!

Don't be running into battle with this move your main front. Its a rarity at the most to use.
Its arguably better used in the air, over the stage, but can be used as a makeshift recovery.

A major, rabbit out of the hat move. Just make sure that rabbit isnt holding a gun at you when pulled out.

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Rotation 3, Uptilt

Contrary to personal belief, you do not need to turn your tap jump off to preform this move. Its quite possible with tap jump on.

Up-tilt is never a stand-alone attack. Because of its awesome range and speed, Lucario's from all sides have a use for it.
All of those uses are either (basketball terms) "Passing the ball" or "dunking".

Passing the Ball- pretty much just chaining Up-tilt from a dash or jabs, to then Up-tilting or grabbing after the Up-tilt. Its the Jack of all Trades. And what makes it so great, is you the player gets to decide what move you want to use next.

For example. Up-tilt (1 option)> Up-tilt (1 option)> Grab (5 options).

Bam! Just like that, you now have 5 ways to control the opponent. Which is either pummeling and/or throwing in any direction.

Dunking- Just using Up-tilt to kill. Thats it. It can kill. At a high percent, and there are BETTER kill moves. But it still kills.

I would say Up-tilt is a control type move. You render the opponent for those seconds to rack damage and do what you want.
Like a speed bump, it will slow the other person down, letting you place the other character on a different path and letting go.

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Rotation 4, AS

Lucario's Swiss Army knife.
Its a highly essential move, play and mind game wise.
Don't leave home with out it!

BAS ( Baby Aura Sphere)- The defense Lucairo can throw are these little buggers. They have a medium range, and move at a steady pace, making them great for anti-approach and staling.

You wouldn't throw a BAS to primarily do damage, or if you are, your just spamming.

BAS, one could say, is like a speed bump. Your opponent should be coming at you, only to be stopped by a BAS.

AS (Aura Sphere) (fully charged)- This is Lucario's nervous maker. When people know you have one, they will change how they approach you, knowing that you could very well know you'd throw it.

It travels far, and it kills, who wouldn't be afraid?

One way to mindgame the other player is, Charge a AS, then just sit on it, saving it for the right time to use it. Don't fire it, just hold it here. You wont lose it, unless you are killed. But a OoS AS is never expected, and if aimed right will hit.

Also, another tactic is not holding onto your AS. Some players will make a AS then hold on to them, just to get the kill. Don't do that, You can always remake them. And if they are going to shield it, so what? If you planned on them shielding it, your probably ready to punish them for it. Going for the better hit, is better then getting the lucky KO.

AS's move slow, almost to the point that every perfectly timed one will hit. Off stage, a AS cuts a huge line out of the safety zone of someone recovering.

AS can control people. Remember that.
BAS can slow people down. Remember that.

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Rotation 5, OoS

OoS (Out of Shield)- basically your jack-in-the-box moves.
Lucario doesn't have much of an option on this one, but they still hold their purpose.

Such moves are-
Dair
Nair
Grab
AS
Jabs
(more or less so)

Nair OoS
Lucci's OoS game? Jabs and utilt are pretty much the standard, I think. Shield grab if they've spaced poorly, but a good opponent won't often land inside your tiny grab range.

For the other stuff that's been mentioned...
I don't use FP OoS because I don't like how massively unsafe the move is if you whiff. If you're okay with trading that risk for the increased grab range, by all means use it.

SH dair I don't have much experience with, so I can't say too much. But it's not like the horizontal range is great, and it's not a very safe option either.

Now, for nair! I recall hearing multiple times that nair can be a nice OoS option, but that your opponent's height is a limiting factor. So I did some quick SCIENCE! To find which characters a SH nair's backwards hitbox will hit when they're grounded. (The frontal hitbox is low enough to hit any character.)

The following characters can be hit:

:peach: :bowser2: :dk2: :yoshi2: :link2: :zelda: :shiek: :ganondorf: :samus2: :pit: :rob: :dedede: :falco: :falcon: :charizard: :marth: :ike: :snake: :sonic:

The following characters cannot be hit:
:mario2: :luigi2: :diddy: :wario: :toonlink: :popo: :kirby2: :metaknight: :olimar:
:wolf: (Wolf is technically tall enough to be hit while STANDING, but he has bad posture and normally will not)
:pikachu2: :squirtle: :ivysaur: :lucario: :jigglypuff: :ness2: :lucas: :gw:

The following characters are Fox:
:fox:

About Fox: it seems that Fox bounces up and down slightly in his standing animation. When I was testing, the backwards nair would hit him when he was at the highest part of it, and miss him when he was at the lowest.

You can take of this what you will. Nair can make an okay substitute for utilt, I think, trading range for the ability to move away from a counterattack if you're blocked. Just be mindful of who you're fighting.
(grats to Col for doing this)

OoC (Out of charge)- ok yea I just made this up, but hey, it works. Basically, doing something during lucario's AS charge. Aka Grab. Its unexpected and allow you get yourself a throw.



But dont expect on them doing this, unless they want a Lucario hug, your better off throwing the AS.

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How to deal with the most annoying/gay/broken moves in the game.

New direction for the dead thread. Like said at the top, I will collect what moves need to be discussed. If this fails, then Phil go make a new thread.

Its easier for me to copy posta.
Snake's ftilt is really easy to deal with regarding DI, as you're technically stuck in hitlag for a very long time, and you have for like ever to DI the hit properly.

Utilt usually won't be used unless in some form of retaliation, or out of a jab cancel. At high percents, expect the utilt when in either situation and DI accordingly.

Utilt is actually quite easy to avoid. It kills you at like 105 but it's never uncommon for Lucario to survive past 140 against Snake. Don't let Snake gain defensive control and you'll have him scrambling to get you off him with the likes of ftilt or nades, both of which are much less lethal than the utilt.
For tornado, shield, DI away from the direction they are moving in, then AD. If you feel like attacking it, dair, and sometimes FCAS will work.

For shuttle loop, like the above post said, DI up from it when it is in the most of the animation, if it was on the start of it, DI away. The best option though it to never approach with an attack, use run shield against shuttle loop, or even do walking to fake/bait it and use good spacing in attacks. If he's going to glide attack, expect a dsmash after it almost always, which means leave your shield up for 2 attacks, or if your timing is good, spotdodge the glide, shield the attack. If you happen to get in the "eye" of the storm of shuttle loop (where you don't get hit), dair.
More editing to come.
(note to self, on 18)

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{NEW!}Approach options!! (Nondatewise)

Ok! So Welcome back. This Thread has yet again decided to pop up. Lets see how well it goes this time.

This time is about Approaching with lucario. This is not about dating, but for Ha ha's I might just help you lonely folk too.
I have yet to figure out how exactly I'll run this, but im thinking something along the lines of

"Character: blaa blaa blaa"

So, you just post what you know or think, and I'll record.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks go To Jeepy for allowing me to closely follow how the Discussion thread is built and who to those who he copied from as well.

Thanks go to Ph1lny3 for all that he's done to help this thread going and what not.

Oh and To everyone that has posted in here and has added to the Discussion. I Personally thank you.
And sorry for not recording your names. You are remembered!!
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
First! Yay!
Oh, to start: Approaches besides fair: what is another alternative? Yes, cover fire using AS counts in conjunction with the approach.
 

jehonaker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
68
Location
Ripon, WI
Let's see...it's tough pinning down how I play as Lucario, because I change strategies a lot.

My main focus is to know what hits I can "take" and which ones I can't. Until my damage climbs to the 60% range, I tend to mix it up in close-quarters.

I tend to play hit-and-run like crazy. ..I'll usually fire off a couple of hits before retreating. I prefer being able to force approaches against opponents than chasing them down. I use Aura Sphere rather liberally, as well.
The air is my friend...I use his aerials a lot, more than I use his tilts and his smashes.

When I pull ahead, I do start changing a couple of things...if I'm ahead by one stock, I go full-out hit-and-run, bombarding with hits here and spheres there. Once I get a two-stock lead, I seem to calm down and go back to my usual strategy.

When I fall behind is what I need to work on. I usually step up my offense, removing a good amount of my emphasis on evasion and instead start battering the opponent as best I can.

I'll sling Aura Spheres to get them while they're recovering, but I mix it up on occasion and use his aerials.

Sadly, I tend to play Lucario, to an extent, like I play Mewtwo in Melee (extremely evasive, hit-and-run, keep distance between me and my opponent).

In summary, my Lucario thrives on the hit-and-run game and knowing how far I can be to still land my attacks.

...I hope that's what this thread was asking for.
 

h4rdcor3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
262
Location
Ames, Iowa
The characters I play against the most tend to approach from the air, Wario and pika being the most common. With that I have been able to almost perfect the shield grab when people are still off the ground.

Otherwise it is a very much hit and run type game, but unlike jehonaker, I usually have to fight from being down a stock. I actually prefer fighting from a deficit these days because of the immediate aura boost at 0%. I also like to roll with the punches. If I can get a combo going, I will continue until they escape and then retreat to my charge my AS

I keep a charged AS at almost all times and rarely use a bAS.
 

supergamer001

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
535
Location
Wichita, Kansas
Or you could always approach with fsmash. ;P

Usually I don't approach and have them come to me while I toss out bAS, when I do approach it's either dash attack or jab>jab>FP from a dash; at least when I start a match that's how I do it.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
So, then so far,

+Hit-and-run tactics.
+bAS or fAS?
+Fair alt. move.

Mmk, go, Discuss!
Pros/cons of each, or one of your choosing.
-t2

*edit.
IRC dissucssion:
+Wavebouncing
+Backwards Fair.

"Backwards Fair, is great. Got this one guy 8 times" (SAM)
"Backwards Fair then F-tilt, call it the F-chain" (Tedward)

(Wavebouncing)
SAM: most people don't use it
SAM: it's really good for ledge stuff
SAM: and if you get sent high in the air you can totally fake out your oppoent
Tedward: yea, i do more of the turnaround stuff for aeirals
SAM: and not get hit
Stauffy: It might also make a good followup to a shfair if your opponent shields.
Stauffy: Haven't tried that, but I like the idea.
SAM: ive been testing that
SAM: it does work
SAM: i wouldn't use it often though
 

Samuelson

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
1,754
Location
Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
When i'm at low percents i play really aggressive (depending on the character) and use SH aerial approaches like Fair>Dair|Fair>Nair|Fair to retreating AS or BAS. When i get to high percents i play really defensive and tend to use AS and Fsmash a lot more and play really conservatively. I pretty much just try and get my opponent to as high of a percent as possible and wait for them to make a mistake when i'm at high percent. Main reason for playing like that is because when Luc is at 100+ percent every single one of his moves does massive damage and will just make things easier for your next stock or your current stock.

One thing that i do, that not a lot of Lucario's do, is i will follow up with a Nair that is not directly after a Fair. Example: Uthrow>Utilt>Nair. I also tend to use Nair overall more. I will ledge hop Nair if my opponent is close, i will use Nair out of sheild i will fast fall nair if i'm falling from the sky, if my opponent is on one of the platforms on BF i will SHNair.

I also like Bair more then most Lucario's and it is my primary way of edgeguarding. I will use Fair if the opponent has really bad recovery but the majority of the time i will use Bair becuase it is a good KO move and Fair...just isn't a good KO move.

Lucario's aerials in order from best to worst IMO: Dair, (Bair, Fair), Nair, Uair.

Jab>Dtilt>Ftilt>Ftilt works really good at low percents and nobody ever uses it. I am trying to find more uses for Dtilt but it is hard, maybe you guys can help.

When i recover i will try to not let myself get below the stage. I will instead get almost horizontal with the stage and try to curve my ES into the ground, doing this will grant you minimal landing lag and makes it hard for your opponent to follow up and punish you IF they are edge hogging. If they aren't edgehogging then i will just go to the ledge hahaha

Wavebouncing NEEDS to be looked into more. Lucario has one of the best wavebounces and i'm suprised that nobody is talking about it's uses. YOU DO NOT need to have your cstick set to specials to wavebounce, that seems like a common misconception.

Right now i'm trying to rely on Lucario's Fsmash less and i'm working on different approaches besides SH aerials.
 

Ilucamy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
469
Location
San Diego, California
There's only one thing that I believe will change Lucario's metagame drastically enough to be useful.

We have to define all of Lucario's playstyles. He's versatile, probably the most versatile in the game (not counting multichars like PKMN trainer, Zelda/Sheik, and Samus/Zamus). Lucario has the ability to not only play in many different ways (aggressive, defensive, camping), his playstyle changes based on the damage he takes. This gives him many many MANY options on how to fight certain enemies.

My idea is to give Lucario these different playstyles and use them interchangeably, much like a split personality. These playstyles have to be different enough for one to be able to say "this isn't working, maybe i'll try being defensive". Sure, this works for all characters to some degree, but I think Lucario has to potential to make it one of his main assets. Given his versatility and aura, it could be like having control of multiple characters all combined into one.

If you've ever played the pokemon games, you would know that some Pokemon are versatile enough to perform different jobs (Lucario actually being one of them) the most versatile ones such as Mew can be anything from a Physical attacker to a Special Wall. That kind of thing is what I envision for the Lucario metagame. If we increase Lucario's options as a character, we can make him counter any other character in the game.

It seems really far fetched, even for me, but I think it's the only thing that'll cut it. If someone were to master all of the playstyles of Lucario, it would essentially make him in control of many different characters.

The thing about this though, is that we have to make each of these playstyles EXTREMELY different. If they're all too similar, they can be melded into one and it would lose it's "surprise" factor. We have to make the difference between the playstyles like the difference between Zelda and Shiek.

I think IF we could get this to work, it's Lucario's best bet at a chance in competitive play. But then again, I doubt anyone has the will or maybe even the skill to come up with it... :(
 

h4rdcor3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
262
Location
Ames, Iowa
The thing about this though, is that we have to make each of these playstyles EXTREMELY different. If they're all too similar, they can be melded into one and it would lose it's "surprise" factor. We have to make the difference between the playstyles like the difference between Zelda and Shiek.
I agree that being able to act as 2 or 3 different characters would do wonders for Lucario. But the problem is not only must you as the Lucario player be able to notice the difference in play style, your opponent must distinguish the difference as well. It is easy with characters that have different skins and move sets but with Lucario you can switch back and fourth very easily between offensive and defensive play style. That ability is what makes Lucario unique. Being able to flow between styles.

Ahh, screw it. It's too late for me, I need to go to bed.

And someone just mentioned a reverse RAR.
<F0X> reverse rar is usefull because it can be seen as WDing kinda (a very specific WD) from stand still you can dash away from your opponent then rar a fair into thier face, kinda like how in melee you could WD back away from them the SH a fair or nair or w/e
I'd like to see some videos used in game
 

Jaxyl

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Norman, OK
Personally, my Lucario metagame is very dependent on who my opponent chooses, but after some deep reflection (i.e. my roommate telling me), I was able to pinch down a few areas where everything snaps.

Before anything else is said, all of this comes from playing against Pikachu, Diddy Kong, Link, Snake, Toon Link, and Zamus.

First off is Lucario Playstyle.

If the opponent is DEFENSIVE
  • A very aggressive Lucario tends to work for the best here because a defensive player is usually a campy player. Though what makes Lucario amazing is that all I have to do is spam neutral b from mid to long range to make them reconsider being so defensive. If the opposing character is one who can reflect/absorb the Blue Sphere of Death, then I do a running approach, but I use his side-b as an emergency brake, if you will, right at the aura's max range, so I am outside of their range. This will either hit them, which leads to combos, cause them to shield, which leads to combos, cause them to jump, which leads to AERIAL combos, or cause them to side dodge, which either repeats the process or allows you to be right in their face (which leads to combos).
If the opponent is OFFENSIVE
  • A neutral to defensive Lucario works really well here for me in that I am able to respond much better to my opponent then if I were being aggressive. Since they're offensive, you can easily use that as a mind game in order to make them approach you in a manner in which you can respond with the best results. The best way I can think of doing this is by spamming his neutral b. This will cause most aggressive opponents to change their strategy on the spot to something they are less familiar with, which is a great opportunity for Lucario. Of course, we all know that spam doesn't work all the time, so what do you do if they are able to change platforms or reflect/absorb your spheres? What I do is a quick change of playstyle here in which I will result to Lucario's aerial game with his nair, bair, and fair, all good for combos and nice dmg. Though if I am against a character with amazing airplay, then the simple "Run up to their face and down b" tends to throw them off the first time, and that first time is usually all you need to get that stock down.

Now for overall play style
  • I tend to always keep a fully charged or near-full charged sphere up at all times in order to respond to an approaching opponent or certain circumstances.
  • His basic A,A,A combo works very well and has decent range along with knockback at mid-% on the thrid A. I've been known to intentionally side-dodge into an opponent just to open up the use of that combo due to it's amazing priority and speed.
  • His down a has good range, good damage, and decent knock back for how quick it hits. Not to mention that if press down a then quickly move the movement stick the opposite direction of which you were facing, it looks like you are doing the Moscow dance. Try it at home!
  • Though I am horrible at landing it, his uair is amazing to hit multiple times with at low % and amazing to star KO with at high %.
  • At the start of a match or after losing a stock, I tend to play a bit more aggressive in order to rack up some hits on my opponent as well as myself. Usually around 60% or so I tend to stop and go into a more reactive play style.
  • u-throw,utilt a, utilt a, up smash tends to rack up some % early in a match. Not always a success, but even u-throw, utilt a works.
  • Double team is a good way to catch an aggressive opponent off guard, but it tends to work only once, twice at best.
  • I like to approach with a dash attack occasionally to throw my opponent off. It's got good knock back and decent %, not to mention it keeps your momentum, so you're not completely wide open is you miss.

I agree with Ilucamy, this is probably Lucario's best bet to be viewed as competitive throughout the whole community. He is one of the few (if not the only) characters that has multiple playstyles to him that almost all his moves fall into. So if we can actually get a metagame thread going where we can compile everyone's game together, then we might be able to start focusing on what works with what characters. Even though no one person exists with the skill to do this on their own, if we all come together, we will figure out how to do it or start the foundation for someone to eventually come along and make Lucario into the tier 1 we know he can be.

I also think we should start posting who we usually match up against in an attempt to see why we do what we do. My meta is very based off of who I play and would most likely change if I were going against a different character. Just an idea for you all to think about.

Here's to this thread's survival and eventual sticky!
 

semicolon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
5
Location
Virginia Tech
First of all, I'm pretty much just a casual player. I'm only now starting to get into the advanced stuff. Heck, I don't even own the game.

I first picked Lucario just because he looks so **** awesome.

I grew to like him because he inherently fits my fighting style. I'm a shoot first, ask questions later kind of fighter. I'm often a bit reckless at first, at least trying to hit my opponent as often as I myself am hit. Since I'm reckless, I often reach high percentages fairly quickly. This is where I start to change to a more defensive fighting style. Hit-and-run, AS spamming. I love to charge my AS and just wait for my opponent to approach from the air, then shield grab. Since I'm usually being juggled, I really love Lucario's aerial game. His roll is nice and fast. He's hard to KO as long as he isn't sent vertically. Force Palm is awesome.

He's very versatile, so he's got a chance against most characters. The trick is to learn to play all his styles and change it up so the opponent doesn't know what's coming next.
 

Rebonack

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
109
Location
West Coast
There's only one thing that I believe will change Lucario's metagame drastically enough to be useful.

We have to define all of Lucario's playstyles. He's versatile, probably the most versatile in the game (not counting multichars like PKMN trainer, Zelda/Sheik, and Samus/Zamus). Lucario has the ability to not only play in many different ways (aggressive, defensive, camping), his playstyle changes based on the damage he takes. This gives him many many MANY options on how to fight certain enemies.
We've actually got a 'What's your Lucario Play-style' sort of topic buried around here somewhere, it would probably serve as a viable resource to your idea.

And yes, Lucario's adaptability is one of his greatest strengths. I've found that switching up my play-style near the end of a match can throw the opponent off. They've been reading attacks and trying to figure out how to counter Lucario and suddenly BAM! it's as though they're fighting someone completely different. When we're talking about the last stock life catching someone off guard like that can end the match pretty fast.

I've got two main styles that I use, both of which are fairly aggressive. The first is a blitz, using BAS and short-hopped BAS as cover for a Fair -> whatever approach. The second style is a bit more passive-aggressive, hovering right around the edge of F-smash range to put pressure on the opponent. I try to make a point of getting a feel for how they play during the first part of the match and then use that once I swap out styles. Get in there between attacks, take advantage of habits.

Which is more or less what I said over there at the 'What's Your Play-style?' thread.

On to other subjects!

While not an approach, Bair into Ftilt or Fsmash is a great way to zone off the area around you. Both hit-boxes are enormous and the interrupt frames on the Ftilt and Fsmash are such that catching a rolling opponent with an UPtilt is pretty easy.

It's a trap!

Any other tricky Lucario traps out there?
 

Fizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
285
Location
York, PA
I agree that Lucario can be played both offensively and defensively, but it's important to remember that (in comparison to higher tiers) Lucario's offensive options are not all that great. Lucario excels in the air, but with the exception of a few moves his ground game is purely mediocre. With a six frame jab, a poor grab range, a fairly slow dash, and less than stellar oos options, Lucario has significant difficulty going head to head with the quick and powerful ground moves of Snake, MK, Marth, and others. That's a fact. Instead, what Luc has to rely on in these matchups is spacing. Fsmash, AS, and even bair to an extent are crucial to Lucario's success when playing competitively.

To sum it up, while Lucario can hold his own against most offensively, his defensive options are a good bit better in most cases. That's why I believe (and I know Timbers does as well) that Lucario should be played primarily as a defensive character.
 

Samuelson

Smash Lord
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Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
The key to playing Lucario is knowing when to be offensive and when to be defensive. You can't effectively play super offensive the entire match and you can't play super defensive the entire match either. You have to find a balance. This also really depends on the character that Lucario is fighting.

Ted said i should post this VVVV

[14:29] Dguy: I do believe
[14:29] Dguy: New techniques will be discovered
[14:29] Dguy: But I do not believe they will be often nor do I believe they will be game changing
[14:29] Dguy: The metagame revolves around the players at this point completely
[14:29] Dguy: And how they deal with things in the game
[14:30] SAM: all the techniques found will be minor
[14:30] SAM: but learning a bunch of minor AT's is the equivilent of a huge AT
[14:30] SAM: look at Link
[14:30] SAM: he has SOOO many minor AT's
[14:31] SAM: and Legan is ****ing amazing with Link because he's found situations where he can use almost every single one of them
[14:31] Dguy: Yup
[14:31] SAM: all these AT's with Luc are being shot down for some reason
[14:32] SAM: people are waiting for the one big AT but that big AT is never going to show up
[14:32] SAM: right now Lucario's ground game needs some serious work hahaha
[14:32] SAM: thats what i think
[14:32] SAM: every body approaches with Fair
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
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Mar 9, 2008
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IRC chat...

>Clutch: See, 3 styles all ready!
>Ephyon|TF2: offensive, defensive and camping.
>Clutch: Aggressive, Neutral and Defensive
>Ephyon|TF2: ftilt approach is safe enough.
>Clutch: theres a difference between a Camping Mindset, and a Defensive one
>SAM: You can't just use 1 style really hahaa
>Dguy: Let me define camping just to make sure everyone is clear
>Dguy: Camping is positioning yourself in a location that gives you a strategic advantage and staying put
>SAM: you have to use a combination of offensive and defensive depending on the character you're fighting and the percent that Lucario is at
>Dguy: Forcing your enemy to come to you

-t2
 

Flowbeat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
31
Location
San Clemente, CA (SoCal)
my lucario's playstyle?: (more like things I do in matches that come to mind)


  • I try to constantly harass with spaced SH f-air(>n-air or >d-air usually), f-tilt, or stuttered f-smash approaches trying to never let up, mixing in brief moments of BAS harassment to change the pace of the match works well to throw opponents off.

  • Before landing from a SH or FH I either like to SHAD or N-air as much as possible it helps me keep rhythm and pressure.

  • I always try and keep a 90% AS charge to hide it and for the occasional surprise charge in your face.

  • when I find myself in jab range, usually after a successful sh f-air > N-air, I like to use jab > jab (crouch) > throw most of the time unless they are out of throw range then d-tilt, FP, or the last jab.

  • OOS I tend to use throws, jab combos, u-tilt, and SH d-air mostly.
    I like to chase far knocked opponents with Extremestop or extremehog

  • To get my KOs I like to try and gimp with F-airs/d-airs/AS as much as possible otherwise tipped f-smashes, d-smash, b-air, u-air, AS (<3 turnaround sphere) usually.

  • so in generaly I'd say I play and aggressive/defensive lucario with the occasional brief camping session
I know there's much more I can't articulate right now due to working 4am shifts at starbucks lol.



some less common approach options to possibly discus:

IASA F-tilt > f-smash - a personal fav, f-tilts can be tilts up for anti air if they SH and IASA'd to utilt if the f-tilt wiffs or another f-tilt.

FF N-air - is it ever better then a f-air to approach with?

SHAD crossover > F-smash or f-tilt
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
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Messages
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in my SCIENCE! lab
This is not how these Lucarios play. Theres a thread on that all ready. This is about how YOU the player does things while playing these styles of play.

Agressive-

Neutral-

Defensive-


*edit.
Over the next Few days or so, Im going to re-model this Thread to be more like Jeepys Character Discussion. But instead of Characters, AT's or like palystyles and what not.

First Discussion will be around the 3 cario styles of play (Phil has this one covered).

Wavebouncing will be second
No kidding, if u guys want to see the thread, here it is:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173703
Hope to use this metagame discussion to expand the thread, since not many ppl seem as interested in expanding mine, and only like to say "I'm ______, or I kinda border on _________". Tho thank u to the ones who do.
 

Greenpoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
852
Defensive
-Backward sutter-stepped F-smashes (that way it's harder/near impossible for them to use a fast move to hit/grab you out of it)
-Rolling backward and f-smash/AS when they approach

Neutral
-Good ol' fair-dair-double jump away
-Empty short hops & pseudo approaches (using two fairs in a row toward them, without getting in their threat-area, then DI'ing away)
-RAR bair for hitbox walls

Agressive
-Fair-dair-doublejump-fastfall-bair approach
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
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Location
NAU
Mmk, So this I think this kinda has mixed message being sent.

Ill give you an example of what metagame is

Defensive- Lucario will begin to move slower more careful of what he does so that he can land those most important shots, normally being a charged AS or a Fsmash.
+The player is/should be looking for kinks in the opponents armor.
+Trying to slow down the other character to his or her speed of current play.
+plays more carefully then risk taking.

or...
Fair is best used when...
The chain to use in this situation is...

or...
New and different uses for AT's or moves (like Wavebouncing or DT)

Hope this clears things up a bit.

You can still talk about what moves you do, But talk about WHY you do it, or is the the best choice, or how it effects the match.
-t2

*edit

Its not about how lucario does things.
Its about about what you do with lucario when things happen.
 

Ilucamy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
469
Location
San Diego, California
So have we decided to focus on Lucario's playstyles as a part of his metagame?

If so, I can somewhat define each of his playstyles.

Offensive: Focuses on Lucario's quick close combat game. Utilizes quick aerials with powerful finishers that leave him open, but have great payoff. Fair is a pretty fundamental move as it sets up lots of aerial combos. Aura sphere doesn't have much of a use here as it's pretty slow. The only thing it'll be used for is kills and the charge for shield pressure. This playstyle would probably use the jab as a setup into ground moves and jab canceling should be looked into further for more usefulness. Since this style values combos, it should be used in the earlier percents. Due to lack of defense, this style SHOULD NOT be used when playing anyone that hits hard (Ganon, Snake) or has very a very good close quarters game (MK). This style SHOULD be used against slow, laggy characters OR characters that are very weak and take a long time to kill (Bowser, Shiek)

Defensive: Spacing is the main priority here. This style utilizes Lucario's long reach and lingering hitboxes to safely hit the opponent without the risk of being counterattacked. Fundamental moves would be long reaching ones such as F-smash and Aurasphere as well as long lasting hitbox ones such as U-Smash and Bair. In this style, retreating aerials are priority, unlike in the offensive style, this limits combos, but is far less risky. The main goal of this style is hit from far away and stay out of reach. This style would be good against characters with short reach and/or laggy moves (MK, GW) but bad against characters with the opposite (Snake, ROB).

I'm really against having Neutral as the name of a style since it's actually quite difficult to define what neutral is. If I get an idea of what "Neutral" is supposed to mean, I'll post something about it.

Err after writing all that I don't want to delete it, but I should say this is mostly from my knowledge of Lucario's game, as I haven't had much time recently to put it into practice. Either way, I think the information is pretty accurate and may be quite well known.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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in my SCIENCE! lab
So have we decided to focus on Lucario's playstyles as a part of his metagame?

If so, I can somewhat define each of his playstyles.

Offensive: Focuses on Lucario's quick close combat game. Utilizes quick aerials with powerful finishers that leave him open, but have great payoff. Fair is a pretty fundamental move as it sets up lots of aerial combos. Aura sphere doesn't have much of a use here as it's pretty slow. The only thing it'll be used for is kills and the charge for shield pressure. This playstyle would probably use the jab as a setup into ground moves and jab canceling should be looked into further for more usefulness. Since this style values combos, it should be used in the earlier percents. Due to lack of defense, this style SHOULD NOT be used when playing anyone that hits hard (Ganon, Snake) or has very a very good close quarters game (MK). This style SHOULD be used against slow, laggy characters OR characters that are very weak and take a long time to kill (Bowser, Shiek)

Defensive: Spacing is the main priority here. This style utilizes Lucario's long reach and lingering hitboxes to safely hit the opponent without the risk of being counterattacked. Fundamental moves would be long reaching ones such as F-smash and Aurasphere as well as long lasting hitbox ones such as U-Smash and Bair. In this style, retreating aerials are priority, unlike in the offensive style, this limits combos, but is far less risky. The main goal of this style is hit from far away and stay out of reach. This style would be good against characters with short reach and/or laggy moves (MK, GW) but bad against characters with the opposite (Snake, ROB).

I'm really against having Neutral as the name of a style since it's actually quite difficult to define what neutral is. If I get an idea of what "Neutral" is supposed to mean, I'll post something about it.

Err after writing all that I don't want to delete it, but I should say this is mostly from my knowledge of Lucario's game, as I haven't had much time recently to put it into practice. Either way, I think the information is pretty accurate and may be quite well known.
Neutral can be classified as an "opportunistic offense", as in, you hope that ur offense pressures them, as opposed to using raw damage. Think "Metaknight" offense vs. "Ike" offense. You don't wait and remain to stationary, but u don't attack to damage only. U do it to invoke and pressure more. At least, that's my opinion.
 

Silvran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
128
Well, my take on aggressive, balanced, and defensive (and what needs to be clarified).

Aggressive: We've all seen berserkers. I think what people don't notice is HOW they're berserking. The spacing is a key, as well as approaches.
- Approach: Run and spot dodge? I find that you can often follow this up with a number of different moves.
- Approach: Short Hop Air Dodge? It gets used, but a major flaw that I see is that against any opponent with lingering hitboxes or a multi hit attack, you're eating a hit when you land, since you do have a split second of lag.
--For both of these, they may seem defensive, but it's a way to start an offense- something key to aggressive play.
- Spacing: Forward Smash, Forward Tilt, Grabbing... actually, I think others will cover these far better, and already have.

Balanced:
MINDGAMES. I actually think this is the most versatile style, since it can switch between the others with less effort, and it's more confusing to see someone who appears to be playing differently every ten seconds, when in actuality they're just playing a balanced game. Similar approaches to aggressive (we really do need more...), but the mindgames need to be discussed. I feel that they will be key to this style.

Defensive:
Not camping. Defensive has to be looking for that one chink in your opponents playstyle, and exploiting it constantly. An example would be a friend of mine who plays Dedede. He relies on his shield a ton, so I've found ways to get it down (HIT THE POMPOM!) that don't involve breaking it. I find a chink, and exploit it when I can. I don't think I can quite do this style justice as far as explaining it goes, I spend less time playing in this way than in the other two, not to mention that the ideas get used in the other two...
 

Jaxyl

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
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Norman, OK
Remember it's also important to note which styles work better in which match ups. For example, just as Fizzle said...
Fizzle said:
it's important to remember that (in comparison to higher tiers) Lucario's offensive options are not all that great....Lucario has significant difficulty going head to head with the quick and powerful ground moves of Snake, MK, Marth, and others.
He is absolutely right, certain play styles will not work against certain match ups. Lucario v. MK would be a slaughter if you fought aggressive but it could be 60/40 MK Favor if you were to play defensively, use your fsmashes to cancel his neutral b spam, and space properly.

So I think that we need to focus on certain match ups and how our play styles manifest in each match up. For example, make this week be MK week. We would then respond if being aggressive/defensive/campy works, how we respond to certain scenarios (MK is neutral B spamming, MK is edgehogging, etc...), and what attacks we find effective in relation to our play style. This would allow us to get a better definition of the Lucario metagame as a whole and allow us to better define our furry buddy as one of the best characters in this game.
 

Timbers

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I don't know how to talk about my playstyle, so I'll just talk about Luc's moveset.

Jabs: Luc's jabs are good, and they're my primary oos option..as Luc's grabrange is very poor. But yes, used mostly for oos purposes or very spotdodge heavy opponents. They're one of the few good mixups that Lucario has, as they can cancel well into forcepalm, grabs, utilt, and ftilt. For jab standards, Luc's are relatively slow, so know when it's safe and when it's not to use them.


Dtilt: I'm trying to find more options for this tilt, really I am. When I first started playing Lucario, it looked like a very crappy move, and continued to stay that way for me. Within the past 2 months though, it's starting to find uses for me. It's an exceptional roll punisher, and can help aid your edgeguard game. It's not as amazing as his other tilts, but it does have it's uses.


Ftilt: Very nice move. Was originally thought of as an excellent spacing tool, but too many characters can punish this on block for me to have stopped using it on shields. However, it's a very good followup to many attacks, and it's lingering hitbox is great against an opponent who you have cornered and they must force a descent next to you. The angled ftilt helps swipe away some approaches, but not enough to be so much of a staple move. Use it to finish a combo and punish airdodges.


Utilt: Very nice move. Another underrated move, thought to have no purpose after used to juggle an opponent. It can still juggle, but it's not a lock like some people had originally thought. Use it to prop the opponent up and open up some followups. This is Luc's only anti-aerial move in his entire arsenal , so be sure to know your uses for it. Great move for propping the character into the air where you want them, and a decent oos option as well. This move needs to be looked into more, it has lots of potential, namely when used in succession to jabs.


Usmash: Another originally-thought-bad move. Hmm, it's still very situational, but it definitely has it's uses now..primarily against character who lack decent aerial mobility and you can trap them to where they're forced to land on top or right behind you, getting hit by the usmash. Thanks to it's lingering properties, it'll easy snatch anyone out of their airdodge. Definitely not something that can be used even regularly, but it does have it's uses.


Fsmash: Your saving grace. This move has so many uses. Brickwalling, edgeguarding, KOing, trapping, spacing, roll punisher. It's amazing. Certainly don't spam it (even though if you did, there's very few characters who could actually punish it. In theory anyways, a smart player won't ever be hit by a spammy fsmash) but be sure to know on what characters this is the most effective. It's lingering hitbox is too good.

Dsmash: A pretty "blah" move. Not recommended to ever use this unless your opponent has somehow fallen into a fall special or they've become predictable in their airdodging when returning to the stage. It lacks the range to be of much use to you, given the laggy startup and ending lag.


Nair: Very good for platform pressure. It's really one of the few moves Luc has to pressure platforms, so be sure to put it to good use when you can. Great for catching airdodges and setting up air to ground combos. Can be used in conjunction to fair for some nice damage.

Fair: Behold, Luc's only safe approach. And it does it's job, too. A somewhat linear approach option but very safe none-the-less. Combo starter, opens up several 15-30% true combos, depending on your percentage. Overall a very good move at controlling the air, with it's lingering properties. Your prime tool for getting back to the stage safely as well. Also very good for gimping when given the chance. A staple move for Luc, be sure to know when to use it.

Bair: A so-so move. Use to like it, what with it's enormous lingering hitbox, but it's become pretty boring once the players you begin playing can punish it so easily. Leaves you very vulnerable in the air and doesn't autocancel. Not much use for it outside of trying to pull off a moderately high percent kill or punishing a roll while maintaining a safe distance.

Uair: One of my favorite airs. Able to punish airdodges very well, kills at reasonable percents (depending on your percentage), and Luc's entire body becomes the hitbox. Very good to know given how floaty Lucario is. Many characters can fall right through him with their airdodge and still be hit by the uair. Great move.

Dair: Easily Luc's best aerial, and my favorite. Amazing move. Fair opens combos into dairs, and given that dair is one of Luc's most damaging moves, it's definitely something to appreciate. Can be used with uairs to punish airdodges. Does an EXTREMELY good job at edgeguarding, as it stalls you and has little startup and afterlag. Decent oos option. Like fair, a very good move for returning to the stage and warding off any pursuers, both above and away from the stage. It's stalling properties are too good, and protect you exceptionally well. Used both offensively and defensive, and does a very good job at both.

Aurasphere: You'd be cruel to make me write down every use this move has. It's insane. Aids approaching, very good defensive projectile, controls space, kills, forces your opponents into compromising positions both on and off stage, stops pursuits....it does everything. Amazing move.

Double Team: **** this ****. Don't use it.

Force palm: Flame sucks. Only reasonable situation I've found for it is fair to retreating forcepalm flame, assuming they shield the fair you can still put some form of pressure on their shield. Heavily character dependent, as some can still punish the flame at it's tip. If you're using fp grab, use it out of a jab cancel. Jab->forcepalm grab is ideal. I wouldn't recommend using Jab->Jab->forcepalm, only because it gives the opponent more time to react and an easier time to DI. It's up to you though. Decent move, don't spam it.

Extreme Speed: It's a recovery. Not a bad one either, given Luc's dair stalls, floaty nature, and aerial movement. Just be wise when using it and learn how to curve it.

Grab: Luc's grabs are good. Too bad they made his grabrange so terribly bad and his running speed only mediocre. Don't bother shieldgrabbing most stuff, as any competent opponent can outspace Luc's grabrange like all the time. Grabs should be used most primarily out of late hit nairs and jab cancels.


Did I do good?
 

supergamer001

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
535
Location
Wichita, Kansas
DTs primary function at the moment is countering your reflected aura sphere.

DT is extremely situational and most of the time has better options at hand but definitely useful to catch your opponent off guard.
 

Timbers

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The only time I use it is against Toon Link's boomerang, lol.

You'd have to be way way way far away from the opponent to fire an AS and have time to get DT's active frames out, by the way.

also they'd be able to shield your DT easily.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
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Mar 9, 2008
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I have found DT better suited as a recovery option.

Well RDT for that matter. And only when it was involving a hit at that level. But It has saved me from a few Ganon Dairs, or pit arrows.

I Say RDT, cause you then shooting your self closer to the stage on the left side that is. Its been helpful.
-t2
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
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San Antonio, TX
Double Team: **** this ****. Don't use it.
DT is a very useful move. When Lucario is at higher %s, it is an extremely powerful KO move and is never stale. Properly read any enemy smash move and they will die at lower %s than most other kill options Lucario has. You know how we like to shoot a fully charged aura sphere at someone who is falling and all they can do is air dodge and they get hit anyway? Put Lucario in that situation, replace AS with some other projectile or a smash move that the enemy is going to punish you with, and the enemy dies if you use DT.
 

Kappie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
195
Location
Amsterdam
I don't think you can safely say: I approach with 'this' or 'that' move with Lucario... approaching is different for each character, and different for each reaction of opponent, so you can't just say: fair approach all the way.

My 'approaches'? well, there are only a couple of characters Lucario even needs to approach at, the rest of the cast he can just fend off attacks that are thrown at him (for example Meta Knight). Some of the characters Lucario needs to be approaching:

R.O.B.
Pikachu
King Dedede?
Falco
Diddy

some of the high tiers

Lucario never needs to approach against

MK
Marth
GW
Wario
DK

this allows you to just pure react to the opponent coming at you, and this will probably make the match easier. Just make sure to parry attacks, do a punishment game, and read your opponent very well. You can always keep a safe distance unless you're not careful.

If you do need to approach, you first task will be to safely close in, you can do this by short hopping and shielding (or even just hitting waddles or catching bananas in some cases). Now, once you're at your opponent, you need to initiate an attack most of the time. You need to make sure you mix this up. Keep in mind you have to always be watching what your opponent's reaction is. I approach a lot with:

retreating fair-> throw baby aura sphere-> watch reaction of opponent. If the opponent got hit by the aura sphere, maybe you can put the pressure on with an offensive fair->dair combo, or do an ftilt. If the opponent shielded the aura sphere, you can do a ftilt, or repeat with another retreating fair.

fair land (out of shield grab range, but scratch their shield) and follow up with ftilt, jabs, or a grab.

bair approach -> fsmash, keeps yourself pretty safe and can pay off big time.

fair -> dair approach, very offensive one, can get your shieldgrabbed, but sometimes you can do multiple dairs in a row (and finish with a nair) on his shield and maybe bait him to drop his shield early.

ftilt -> watch reaction. Pretty basic, don't spam this.

Maybe I can think of some more but this is pretty much it. You also need to realize once you're in close range of your opponent, maybe you can JUST watch his reaction. They won't be shooting lasers / waddles anyway, because that has a lot of lag, so since that is pretty much useless you don't have to be the first to attack per se.

That's why I think the 'playstyles' are pretty much 'obligatory' in some situations. Ever seen a defensive MK against ROB? Or an offensive Lucario against MK? I don't think so. Adapt to your opponent.
 

Silvran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
128
To each their own on approaching, but Kappie, take into account that some people might not always play a waiting game, even against characters where statistics say that defense is the best option. In those cases, approaches are vital, and knowing your options lets you get the right move. Even if you are just playing a punishment game, you need to be able to approach, just in case they decide to go and chuck projectiles at you. On the topic of styles, adapting to the opponent is important, but being able to use every style against any opponent is one of the best mindgames Luc has. Aggressive vs. someone like Metaknight may take an immense amount of precision, control, and mindgames, but if you're a good offensive player, I'm betting you can pull it off.

On a slightly different topic... maybe we should ditch the idea of "styles" and switch it to "stances". I mean, from personal experience, I find that I default to balanced play, and pendulum between (switch between) offensive and defensive throughout the match. It makes the ideas a little less limiting, and it'd be interesting to think of ways the styles are linked, and how to transition from one to another. For instance, transitioning from offense to defense as the opponent moves off or approaches, combining elements of them (using your offense as defense, such as clashing moves). Not sure, just curious what other people think.
 

Tyrael64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
357
Location
Californiia, USA
I've been working on Reverse DT for approaches, and only the other day did I discover that I had been holding the controls tick in the wrong direction the whole time. Now I'm working on improving my RDT ability. I hope to use it as a good approach.

In my experience, my foes tend to know about AA-FP (since I do it a lot), so I've been experimenting with A-FP. 9/10 times, it's too fast for them to react to, while the AA-FP gives them enough time to prep a spotdodge.

When I'm on the offensive, I tend to spam SH Fair or SH Dair. Ftilt is good occasionally for a mixup. I tend to rely on Fsmash too much.

Bair is great, I love it so much. One of my favorite usages of it is when people are trying to recover. The hitbox lingers FOREVER, so I tend to jump out and FF it. Doing that creates a big vertical wall of hitbox that they can't get past unless they airdodge.

One of my favorite kills is to run off the edge and INSTANTLY Dair. It's a great stagespike. When people are below me, and I'm on a platform or something, I like to Riverdance (mash up on the stick and down on the C-stick, effectively the shortest SH Dair you can do), but I keep screwing it up and Dsmashing instead. It annoys me.
 

Fizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
285
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York, PA
Yeah, jab-FP is quite good because the second jab does hardly any damage anyway. When I use the second jab, I'll usually follow with the third, a grab, or use d-tilt.

Jab-jab-dtilt is pretty good. Hawk has been using it for a while, but I've always thought it sucked until now. It's crazy fast and can even kill at later %.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
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NAU
Ok, ive decided that I'll keep it to a overall weekly topic or so.

But theres soooo much to cover, and so I'll record anything else that needs to be. Like anything we find with FP or DT in the next weeks or so.

So this wont be rigid and on one thing too much, because then we wont expand. Continue with what you are doing, and just know, its all going into account and being recorded if needed.
XD
-t2
 

Timbers

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I don't think you can safely say: I approach with 'this' or 'that' move with Lucario... approaching is different for each character, and different for each reaction of opponent, so you can't just say: fair approach all the way.
You can APPROACH with other moves, but fair is definitely the only move in Luc's arsenal that is safe on block. Bair does not hit most characters with it's rising hitbox, so you have to fall into your opponent to land the move, something that can definitely become punishable.

I like the idea of making a list for Lucario. Who he has to approach and who he doesn't. That'd be nice to create.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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in my SCIENCE! lab
You can APPROACH with other moves, but fair is definitely the only move in Luc's arsenal that is safe on block. Bair does not hit most characters with it's rising hitbox, so you have to fall into your opponent to land the move, something that can definitely become punishable.

I like the idea of making a list for Lucario. Who he has to approach and who he doesn't. That'd be nice to create.
I wonder if tilt stick makes anything useful. Perhaps walk retreat ftilt? I dunno, I just don't like our limited approach arsenal (even tho fair is amazing).
 

supergamer001

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
535
Location
Wichita, Kansas
I use tilt stick only because I can't pull a tilt manually to save my life. Reason is back when I went through my maining Gannondorf stage utilts was death so I trained my hands to always do smash attacks manually.

Maybe some walking ftilts as an approach?
 
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