Pokedex Entry 14: Ness

Steeler · Oct 24, 2008

Ze first boy wonder!

Zard's grab release = ugly. :\ pretty sure zard can get a free sweetspot dtilt out of it, and kill at like 110%. maybe a free ftilt too, or even...dare i say it...ROCK SMASHSHSHSHHGHHHHGHGH idk, its probably too slow. need to try it out! flamethrower is also an option. idk what zard can do out of it, but it isn't good for ness.

ivy plays good defense, doesn't mind pk fire too much with razor leaf. outranges up close, typical ivysaur matchup. i'll say it's around neutral.

squirtle's water gun has a use guys!! and it's to gimp ness anytime he uses PK THUNDAAHHHRHRHRHHHHH. fairly certain squirtle can get something out of grab release.

overall, slight pt favor.

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

I'm thinking 65:35 PT... because you know, all three Pokemon can do something to him out of grab-release.

But anyway, let's play now?

infernovia · Oct 24, 2008

I am pretty sure squirtle can grab release ness too. I don't think he can grab release lucas though.

Mangme · Oct 24, 2008

Yeah, Grab Releasing isn't really reliable anymore, I play a Ness who can escape after like, 1 or 2 pummels. And he can get a pretty big distance away from me, and can sometimes escape.

Wii4Mii 99 · Oct 24, 2008

Mangme said:
Yeah, Grab Releasing isn't really reliable anymore, I play a Ness who can escape after like, 1 or 2 pummels. And he can get a pretty big distance away from me, and can sometimes escape.

I don't think it's the infinite grab-release combo that puts Ness at such a disadvantage. I think it's the options you can do out of it, like Steeler said.

Kinzer · Oct 24, 2008

You ahould probably discuss the matchup on Ness WITHOUT the grab release. You know just for if whatever reason it can't be done and you have to fight the legitimate way. Also with Rock Smash Sonic 'Sez' "You're Too Slow!"

Steeler · Oct 24, 2008

i do not know of a single tournament that has banned grab release -> whatever. hobo 11 did however ban infinite grab releases, capping it at 5...however, after 5 you are free to land a free smash attack or something.

point is, grab releasing definitely matters in this matchup. it's part of the reason why squirtle is not useful against marth.

OmegaXF · Oct 24, 2008

Have you discussed this with the Ness boards?

PkTrainerCris · Oct 24, 2008

Steeler, i think you should make the threadon the ness board, but anyway you always do and i think you are gonna do it with the time
Squirtle: Charge water gun, make him los his second jump and hes done, on the other ness outranges;althought squirtle is faster... advantage for squirtle
Ivysaur: Razor leaf cant be absorbed, you can get out of pk fire (aka "listo el pollo") fast and fsmash stops Pk T2(not sure it always does, but happens often)
Charizard: Without grab release he does just decent, you cannot space with flamethrower and pk fire gets you for a while, anyway you have the power and range, and a very useful jab combo
Overall PT's advantage, but be careful with the spike, it kills very well all three pokemon

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

infernovia said:
I am pretty sure squirtle can grab release ness too. I don't think he can grab release lucas though.

Ness breaks out of Squirtle for me a lot. Either its really strict or it doesn't work.

Kinzer said:
You ahould probably discuss the matchup on Ness WITHOUT the grab release. You know just for if whatever reason it can't be done and you have to fight the legitimate way. Also with Rock Smash Sonic 'Sez' "You're Too Slow!"

I agree that the discussion should stray away from this, and then the grab release is factored in later.

I must say that Ness is slightly difficult to grab. He opperates much in the same way as Squirtle to avoid getting shield grabbed; full-hopped Fair's and Bairs. Fair will be his primary attack, and its disjointedness makes it pretty good shield pressure. Ness can't go for a Bair kill on Charizard without risking what is basically a stock, though.

The Fair walls are a bit of a nuissance for Squirtle, as is PK Fire. PK Fire is a little harder to smash DI out of for Squirtle.

Ness makes Ivysaur fatigue a lot; I do not recommend attempting to wait until he decides to finish stalling by burning your leaf. You're the one with the fatigue timer, not Ness.

Kinzer · Oct 24, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
I agree that the discussion should stray away from this, and then the grab release is factored in later.

I must say that Ness is slightly difficult to grab. He opperates much in the same way as Squirtle to avoid getting shield grabbed; full-hopped Fair's and Bairs. Fair will be his primary attack, and its disjointedness makes it pretty good shield pressure. Ness can't go for a Bair kill on Charizard without risking what is basically a stock, though.

This guy put it in words I was looking for, but I'm not one to tell you how to run your matchup guides.

Steeler · Oct 24, 2008

kinzer...i thought you were an ike main. O:

forgot to make the thread on the ness board, will do so now.

Kinzer · Oct 24, 2008

I am, but you'll be seeing me when you guys get to Sonic. I can't decide which to choose because I like both and I'm equally skilled with the both of them.

ColinJF · Oct 24, 2008

Grab release barely matters. Neither Squirtle nor Ivysaur can force a ground break. Charizard can, but the damage output of his chaingrab is really low, and being able to get a free hit at the end of that is not enough to turn the match up overall in Pokemon Trainer's favour because Ness is a way better character than Pokemon Trainer.

55:45 Ness wins.

Kinzer · Oct 24, 2008

^^

Oh boy, duck and cover!

Steeler · Oct 24, 2008

omg lol

so grab = death at 110% doesn't matter? O: and the fact that zard's grab is a true infinite, like marth's?

anyway we should like, iduno, discuss individual character strengths or something.

i think ivysaur does alright vs ness. outranges with bair in the air to hassle ness's greatest strength. and ness doesn't have a good ground game, while ivy has some nice tools to work with in ftilt, dtilt, jabs, and good range grab.

Mangme · Oct 24, 2008

ColinJF said:
Grab release barely matters. Neither Squirtle nor Ivysaur can force a ground break. Charizard can, but the damage output of his chaingrab is really low, and being able to get a free hit at the end of that is not enough to turn the match up overall in Pokemon Trainer's favour because Ness is a way better character than Pokemon Trainer.

55:45 Ness wins.

Ness is a way better character isn't really a valid argument.

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

ColinJF said:
Ness is a way better character than Pokemon Trainer.

Oh lord, and so it begins.

Let's just play matches, please. I can function as a PT and as a Ness, so I'm open for both sides.

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

ColinJF said:
Grab release barely matters.

Lets take one post to explain exactly what it does for Charizard.

Restore stale moves
Inch Ness slowly over towards the edge
Build damage without contributing to stamina
Leads to Dtilt (Death)
Imobolizes Ness

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

^ The only thing about the dtilt part is that Ness can jump break, so if he does, you have to start over again. The rest is 100% true.

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

If you're pummeling someone when they release, do they not ground break?

I just keep pummeling and then shift over to Down and Down C-stick.

Steeler · Oct 24, 2008

charizard is one of the characters that forces a ground break by just pummeling at optimum speed.

i'm not so much making this point for the pummel damage since grab infinites are banned sometimes. my main point is that grab at over 115% means ness is dead.

Gaussis · Oct 24, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
Lets take one post to explain exactly what it does for Charizard.

Restore stale moves

Inch Ness slowly over towards the edge

Build damage without contributing to stamina

Leads to Dtilt (Death)

Imobolizes Ness

Bold part is false if the character pummels at optimum speed.

This matchup is weird. You have to factor in three characters plus their condition (stamina). I'll organize what I want to say for now.

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

I'm open to play now.

I'd prefer to play Ness, but I can use either one.

Also, my connection is really good lately, so take advantage of that...

Pichu Sensei · Oct 24, 2008

In all, I think PT has a slight advantage over ness.

We really should get a PT board chat for discussions like these.

A2ZOMG · Oct 24, 2008

This matchup is 99/1 in PT's favor.

Grab release.

Without it however, Ness should go close to even with most of the PT IMO.

Gaussis · Oct 24, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
i think ivysaur does alright vs ness. outranges with bair in the air to hassle ness's greatest strength. and ness doesn't have a good ground game, while ivy has some nice tools to work with in ftilt, dtilt, jabs, and good range grab.

Bair isn't enough to deal with Ness, although I must say it is a good move. To say Ness doesn't have a good ground game is very inaccurate. Ivysaur can be dealt with on the ground. Yo-yos work really well on Ivysaur for two good reasons:
-Ivysaur leans forward on some attacks, giving him some damage if he tries to retaliate when they are so close to him.
-They outprioritize Ivysaur's leaf.

All in all though, Ivy could be very close to even against Ness. The one thing that doesn't convince me though is that offstage, Ivysaur is defenseless.

A2ZOMG said:
This matchup is 99/1 in PT's favor.

Grab release.

Without it however, Ness should go close to even with most of the PT IMO.

Entirely untrue. Ness plays at the edge against Charizard. Charizard's greatest strength is nullified by this and getting released very early, leading up to only about 15% damage. Against the other two, they don't force ground breaks.

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

Well, even this is bad for Ness because he doesn't have a particularly effective recovery and Charizard doesn't mind following you out there. Actually, right before you ground release off the stage he'd probably just Fthrow and try to gimp you.

Gaussis · Oct 24, 2008

And how would you do that? Ness can DJ airdodge, mind you, or DJ fair if necessary. It is an effective recovery here since he doesn't have limited options. Also, following Ness and trying to gimp his PKT is altogether a bad idea since he lacks the speed to eat his thunder if that's what you are thinking. If not, Ness can bring PKT in front of him and keep Charizard away using the tail.

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

Charizard's Bair is a pretty quick disjointed hitbox, but you don't even have to go that far. Recovering Ness has trouble with Flamethrower, and this is one of the only times he is limited in using the magnet.

ColinJF · Oct 24, 2008

I'm interpreting A2ZOMG's post as a joke.

By the way, in case there's any confusion, neither Marth nor Charizard infinite Ness, but at least Marth can do okay damage with his chaingrab. Charizard can't. If you grab break optimally and hold away from Charizard, his chaingrab does very poor damage and leads into a single free hit of some move. It's still an advantage on Ness for sure, but it doesn't overcome Ness's inherent advantages over a worse character than him.

As for why Ness being a better character matters... in order to go even with a character better than you, you need enough advantages to make up for their inherent advantages. Charizard being able to do something threatening out of a grab (it's not really that ****ing) is not enough to turn this match up in Pokemon Trainer's favour. Charizard is just a big target for pk thunder.

Grab release only makes the difference between 60:40 Ness wins and 55:45 Ness wins.

Retro Gaming · Oct 24, 2008

Mangme said:
Ness is a way better character isn't really a valid argument.

How does Marth's release do more damage than Charizard's? Have you ever used Charizard's pummel? It's at least as fast as Marth's, if not faster.

You're just assuming that Ness is a better character, not supporting your position, and then making up some more stuff after that.

CHOMPY · Oct 24, 2008

Squirtle- Fights pretty well in the air and can easily dodge the PK Fires. Since Squirtle is a small character. Although Squirtle is the lightest character and dies the quickest and you have to watch out for Ness's spike. Prevent Ness from getting back on the stage shouldnt be a problem since Ness's recover is really bad and Squirtle being an aerial fighter can effectivly take him on.

60:40 in Squirtles Favoir

Ivysaur- Ness will outcamp Ivysaur and the PK Fires will go right through Ivysaurs Razor Leafs. Most of Ness's aerials out prioitize Ivysaurs aerials and outranges them if spaced properly. The PK thunder will give Ivysaur some trouble as far as getting back on the stage since he only has his tether recovery. Ness can move around in the air so easily that he can dodge Ivysaurs smash attacks and the only way to hit Ness is by using your tilts,

30:70 in Ness's Favor

Charizard- Being that Charizard is big in size, hes easy to get PK Fired and Spiked. Charizard is pretty slow in the air that the only way to take on Ness is by using a suprise Rock Smash and some on the tilts. If Ness tries to do an aerial move, try to shield grab.

25: 75 in Ness's Favor

ColinJF · Oct 24, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
How does Marth's release do more damage than Charizard's? Have you ever used Charizard's pummel? It's at least as fast as Marth's, if not faster.

You're just assuming that Ness is a better character, not supporting your position, and then making up some more stuff after that.

Depending on the grab, the amount you can DI your ground break varies. That's why Charizard does a lot less damage than Marth... because you can slide farther when you break from his grab (and you DI away). How far you can slide is based on the angle you are held above the horizontal, by the way. (This includes the geometry of the stage, but also the grab move being used.)

And you're right I haven't supported my position that Ness is way better than Pokemon Trainer, because I only really wanted to comment on the grab release, and thought I'd throw in my match up opinion as well.

Successor of Raphael said:
Let's just play matches, please.

I wouldn't be so naive to comment on a match up without having played it.

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

Colin, if you just DI away from Charizard on a ground-break, he can still grab you. That's why he has what he has. Even if Ness slides farther from Charizard than he does Marth... it doesn't really matter because Charizard's grab range is longer than Marth's. You still need to jump break.

CHOMPY said:
Charizard- Being that Charizard is big in size, hes easy to get PK Fired and Spiked. Charizard is pretty slow in the air that the only way to take on Ness is by using a suprise Rock Smash and some on the tilts. If Ness tries to do an aerial move, try to shield grab.

25: 75 in Ness's Favor

You have GOT to be kidding me. 30:70 Ness against Ivysaur was bad enough, but this? No. Absolutely not.

ColinJF · Oct 24, 2008

I know he can regrab you, I've said that multiple times in my posts. (Read above.) It does matter by the way since, like Marth, Charizard moves forward when he actually grabs you via a standing grab, so the grab range difference barely matters compared to the sliding difference.

You can't jump break versus Charizard if he does it right by the way (unlike Squirtle and Ivysaur).

A2ZOMG · Oct 24, 2008

The reason why I think PT vs Ness without grab release is even is because basically, the PT and Ness share very similar qualities from what I see.

They're all easily gimped. They have access to throw kills. And they have quite a bit of range on aerials in general.

Basically, I don't think anyone has any particularly clear advantages on each other in this matchup.

Brinzy · Oct 24, 2008

ColinJF said:
I know he can regrab you, I've said that multiple times in my posts. (Read above.) It does matter by the way since, like Marth, Charizard moves forward when he actually grabs you via a standing grab, so the grab range difference barely matters compared to the sliding difference.

You can't jump break via Charizard if he does it right by the way (unlike Squirtle and Ivysaur).

I read your post.

"That's why Charizard does a lot less damage than Marth... because you can slide farther when you break from his grab (and you DI away)."

If you're talking about purely grabs and not a grab-release -> Zard's dtilt vs. Marth's tippered Dsmash, then yes, Charizard does more. Assuming they both only regrab you once or twice before you jump break, Zard will win because he does, indeed, pummel slightly faster than Marth.

If they're both moving forward, then how does Zard do way less than Marth?

A2ZOMG said:
The reason why I think PT vs Ness without grab release is even is because basically, the PT and Ness share very similar qualities from what I see.

They're all easily gimped. They have access to throw kills. And they have quite a bit of range on aerials in general.

Basically, I don't think anyone has any particularly clear advantages on each other in this matchup.

Do you play either character? I'm just asking.

PkTrainerCris · Oct 24, 2008

At ness mains: ness gets a tipped dtilt/ftilt in his face after the release, please go to training mode and check the ko potential of those moves, because i can see you have never fought even a bad PT ¬¬
It doesnt matter the damage that the grab release can do, its forbidden in some tournies, stupid, bored and.... gay... the thing here is that if charizard grabs ness( best non tethe grab range and low postlag say hi) over 110% ness is death
Charizard's aerial spped is not bad, its marth>zss>charizard for air speed, and marth has a nice air speed, you really should worry about charizard's tilts because those kill ness pretty easily

ColinJF · Oct 24, 2008

When I said Charizard did less, I meant per unit distance of stage (which is what matters), not per grab. When Charizard inputs his grab, he moves forward to the point where Ness has slid to. That's why Ness sliding far against Charizard makes the chaingrab do less damage than Marth can do (where you slide less far).

I am well aware that Charizard has this particular advantage over Ness (though understand what it actually is), but it doesn't make up for the fact that Charizard gets wrecked by Ness because he is a huge target for pk thunder and doesn't have a good way to deal with it.

About Squirtle, I saw somebody claim above that he can gimp Ness with Water Gun. That's never going to happen.

Ivysaur is probably the most threatening of the three.

PkTrainerCris said:
please go to training mode and check the ko potential of those moves

Bad idea. Moves are weaker in training mode, so this will give you the wrong figure for then they kill.

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