60% Combo on Heavies ! (Edited : Now with Videos !)

Blad01 · Oct 24, 2008

I. The combo

I've discovered a new kind of combo with Dair, that seems to work fine on heavies. I call it the "Bouncing Combo". (EDIT : Bounce Combo is maybe better

)

How to do the boucing combo ? It works great on heavies, since they can't jump / attack from a fresh Dair at 0%.
From 0%, you just have to :
1) Dair
2) While he's boucing on the ground, do a Tipman Uair.
3) This will result in a second bounce. After this, the opponent can't do anything but get up normally (without attack). So basically you can do what you want from that.

II. Bouncing Combo possibilities

Let's sum up the possibilities you have with the "Boucing Combo".

Dair > Tipper Uair (aka Boucing combo) > FSmash (= 52%)
Bouncing Combo > Flame Choke (37%) > Techchase
Boucing Combo > Grab
Boucing Combo > Dair > UAir (63 % !) / Bair (67% !). And this is a true combo !
Boucing Combo > Dair > USmash... 72% !! It's a true combo, but is DIable.
Boucing Combo > Anything you want ^_^ (Force palm works too, but is not really useful)
(Alternative) Boucing Combo > FTilt / Jab > Techchase (Very hard to tech that)

III. Escaping the Combo

The Dair can be teched. The Uair will probably touch if they just tech (without techrolling), but won't set up good follows-up...
A lot of the possibilities can be DIed out.

The problem of this combo is that the first Dair can be teched. But if you opponent misses it... He will regret it ;P

IV. The videos

V. The name
We are still searching for a name that could perfectly fit to this combo

Bouncing Combo (Blad01) : The original name i found. But it's maybe not from a very good English...
Bounce Combo (Blad01) : This is maybe a better English talk ^^'
Tipman Bouncer (Swoops) : The name proposed by Swoops for the Combo. I think it doesn't mention the fact this is a "combo", and i focalised on Tipman, but that's still a decent name
Anyone wants to propose one ?

Swoops · Oct 24, 2008

Lol nice, I just mentioned the possibility of this this exact thing in my thread >_>. Good to know that tipman does force get up, and nice job with the testing of all this. You definitely discovered some cool stuff.

There are ways to get out of the bounce I think, but in any case they will get hit by the tipman after a 0% d-air. They can air dodge of course, and I think they can attack to get their attack lag (not the actual attack.) But like I said, you hit them either way.

Good stuff blad, I'll see if I can record something.

nash123 · Oct 24, 2008

At step no.2 its says tipman up-air but for the first possiblity it says tipper up-smash.Thought you should know that, cool combo though.

Blad01 · Oct 24, 2008

Swoops said:
Lol nice, I just mentioned the possibility of this this exact thing in my thread >_>.

Ahah, i just noticed that XD You have guesse well ^^

Swoops said:
Good stuff blad, I'll see if I can record something.

Thanks. And yes a video would be nice

Also, i didn't realise something during my tests... There is an amazing follow with the Boucing Combo ! :o Dair, then Bair. That's beautiful, and does 67% ! And guess what ? The Dair to Bair (or Uair) is a true combo at this exact percents ! :D
(At least it is on a Ganondorf/ Snake lvl9).

So we know have a 67% combo on Snakes... Pretty good news, even if the boucing combo is a bit situationnal

On a side note, the Boucing Combo is great on BF... I will show you if someone can record my replay ^^

Shadow Nataku · Oct 24, 2008

I know for a fact I already mentioned this and how there were options out of it in the Snake thread. However I should add in a small thing I noticed but Bowser I believe is actually able to react fast enough to break out of this combo occasionally. The DAir doesn't get enough stun on him occasionally to set him up for the Tipper.

Blad01 · Oct 24, 2008

Shadow Nataku said:
I know for a fact I already mentioned this and how there were options out of it in the Snake thread.

Hum, i haven't see that, sorry... And i'm sure i've read all your posts in this thread. You mainly talk about the Dair > Grab combo.

However I should add in a small thing I noticed but Bowser I believe is actually able to react fast enough to break out of this combo occasionally.

Maybe, i just tested on Snake and Ganondorf, actually.

The DAir doesn't get enough stun on him occasionally to set him up for the Tipper.

Yes, from 0%, it does.
However, it seems that after two Dairs, it get affected by move decay, and a Dair from 0% doesn't even send him in the airs. In that case, you'll have to adapt, and maybe do the Dair a few percents later... (or refresh it).

Shadow Nataku · Oct 24, 2008

Blad01 said:
Yes, from 0%, it does.
However, it seems that after two Dairs, it get affected by move decay, and a Dair from 0% doesn't even send him in the airs. In that case, you'll have to adapt, and maybe do the Dair a few percents later... (or refresh it).

Nono its a different thing I'm talking about.

It DOES combo normally, but I've seen a very strange effect happen on heavies mainly where if you DAir them at an awkward angle you only get half the stun you normally do. They'll mostly ignore the attack and can react right away when this happens you can't follow up with the Tipper.

I don't know WHY but I've seen both Snake and Bowser do it, its not tech'ing either since they were simply walking but only Bowser seem actually fast or high priority enough to actually take advantage of it.

But yeah I did talk more about the DAir->Grab mainly I only made a single mention of the Tipman so its missable. More discussion is needed about this as it heavily opens up Ganon's options to other methods of attack.

Swoops · Oct 24, 2008

You can DI stomp to where you bounce up higher, allowing you more time to attack, but I'm pretty sure most people don't know about it >_>

Z1GMA · Oct 24, 2008

OMG! this is ******* awesome!!
I messed around with it for a while and managed to inflict 72% O_O using:
Bouncing combo > Dair > Usmash

hyperstation · Oct 25, 2008

Good sh*t. I just got back from a weekly, and I wish I would have known this before hand. Haha.

Swoops · Oct 25, 2008

A little update, this will work on anyone if they don't recover from the hit, and if they miss the tech. A little bit situational but you have to fast fall the u-air to get the tipman to hit, then even with the lag you have enough time to follow up. All of this seems a little situational but it's cool as hell nonetheless, maybe it'll become better with time. I'll most likely have some sort of video up tonight.

Swoops · Oct 25, 2008

Alright, here is the video I got so far blad. Fuck youtube, every time I upload something it just makes it a black screen.

Tipman Bouncer Demo - Yea I just called it something random that sounded decent

.

Since I couldn't add comments -_-, the first part just shows me doing stand alone tipman bounces, then I continue to show what can be done with it. Then I did DDD, and finally I show how you can fast fall it to still hit smaller characters.

This is avoidable. In fact it seems pretty avoidable, but we'll see with time. Might have more potential than we think.

Blad01 · Oct 25, 2008

Thanks Swoops for the vid' ^^ I personnally prefer "Boucing Combo" to "Tipman Bouncer" though ;P

Yes, we can do it on every character, but only if they don't react at all AND don't tech... :x (And on some character like G&W, you don't have to FF the Uair

).

You can DI stomp to where you bounce up higher, allowing you more time to attack, but I'm pretty sure most people don't know about it >_>

... *Hope that everybody missed that*... Swoops, don't give tips to our opponents p_q

Oh, and last but not least, the Boucing Combo with Dair > USmash is definitly the best combo to rack up damages. But unfortunaly, it's DIable :/

DKKountry · Oct 25, 2008

Neat. I know a guy who loves playing Ganon that I'll not tell about this. Thanks!

lol JP

Z1GMA · Oct 25, 2008

I tried some alternvatives.. here's the vid

EDIT: Now with better quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj-a7W4TXi0
.
.

LaserBust · Oct 25, 2008

Seems like a good find. Think Ill mess around wit it =D.

Lawlz, nice alts. Zigma.

hyperstation · Oct 25, 2008

I love all of you. Bouncing fatties around is so fun.

:034: · Oct 25, 2008

So, on which characters does this work, exactly? Just Snake, D3 and Falco or more?

Z1GMA · Oct 25, 2008

LaserBust said:
Seems like a good find. Think Ill mess around wit it =D.

Lawlz, nice alts. Zigma.

thx

yea I think the possibilities has no end =)

And I must thank Blad for finding this.. or was it Swoops.

Darn.. the sound messed up in my vid =/

Swoops · Oct 25, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
So, on which characters does this work, exactly? Just Snake, D3 and Falco or more?

Technically it works on all characters. It's just more effective out of stomp on Snake/D3/other heavies because they don't have that big of window to recover and go straight to standing. Plus you have to fast fall the u-air on a lot o characters.

Blad01 · Oct 25, 2008

Swoops said:
Technically it works on all characters. It's just more effective out of stomp on Snake/D3/other heavies because they don't have that big of window to recover and go straight to standing. Plus you have to fast fall the u-air on a lot o characters.

Exactly

(We maybe need more test to know on which characters you have to FF or not. I'm sure you don't on G&W).

I edited the first post, thank to Swoops and Z1GMA for the videos. :D I should put some of Z1GMA Alternatives in the OP.

I noticed you also used Dash Attack to "Tipman Bounce". That could be interesting too, even though it seems more avoidable... We definitly should do tests on it, thanks

And I must thank Blad for finding this.. or was it Swoops.

You're welcome

Technically, this was me, a few weeks ago ;p But i was trying to record this for my thread... (I sent the replay to A2ZOMG, but he has a lot of requests)
And apparently Swoops thought to the same thing a few days ago ^^ (I should have suspected that lol

).
Not to mention that Shadow Nataku apparently already knew that... But didn't talk a lot about it. :x

I'm waiting for my next tournament match against a Snake / DDD :D I'll try to do the BC at the beginning of the match

Z1GMA · Oct 25, 2008

I remade the video with better quality.. especially the sound.
So you might want to change the link andress in the OP Blad =)

Here it is with better quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj-a7W4TXi0

Phazon Warrior · Oct 25, 2008

This looks amazing. How did you stumble onto this? Accident? Just play testing a bunch of ideas?

Blad01 · Oct 26, 2008

Z1GMA said:
I remade the video with better quality.. especially the sound.
So you might want to change the link andress in the OP Blad =)

Here it is with better quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj-a7W4TXi0

Added

This looks amazing. How did you stumble onto this? Accident? Just play testing a bunch of ideas?

Personnally, i found it when i was messing around on the Snake match-up.

I tried new combos with Dair (by example Dair to Grab that Shadow Nataku mentionned), and i thought to that ^^

Z1GMA · Oct 26, 2008

I can't wait to see what wonderful alternatives people will come up with

Calixto · Oct 26, 2008

As for the name, to follow the idea of Dair being the Thunderstomp, the combo could be called something like, 'Lightning Tipman', or somesuch. Just an idea ( I want to avoid people somehow adding the word 'wave' to the technique, mostly).

hyperstation · Oct 26, 2008

I started doing playing around with this combo today. First of all, I want to say THANK YOU Blad. This is really exciting. Second, I was testing on some lighter heavy characters, and as Swoops said, you can hit anyone (I believe) as long as you FF correctly. I think this string could become a centerpiece to Ganon's arsenal. Not unlike Gerudo->follow-up in that this string has many different possibilities following the initial bounce, I think that learning the character specific follow-ups/most powerful, reliable combos for each character could become quite important. Really, this just adds another layer to the "problem" of Ganondorf. That is, Ganondorf only becomes really effective against characters upon fully learning the matchup, unlike MK for instance who can go toe to toe with any character with very little or no prior knowledge of the matchup.

As for the name, since it's not a true combo, I think mentioning it in the title could be misleading. However, the Murder Combo isn't a true combo either, so whatever. I'm drawing a blank on ideas for the name.

SaltyKracka · Oct 26, 2008

I'm going to go ahead and make a blanket statement now.

Ganondorf is excellent, as long as you have near Melee-level skills. The only other character where this is really the case are perhaps Link, Yoshi, and Lucas.

EDIT: By skills, I mean technical skills, reflexes and such.

Z1GMA · Oct 26, 2008

Calixto said:
to follow the idea of Dair being the Thunderstomp, the combo could be called something like, 'Lightning Tipman'

thing is it can be done with Dash attack also, even though Dair seems more reliable.

illinialex24 · Oct 26, 2008

I noticed that you never get a true consecutive move counter unless its done past like 20%. Very interesting.

LinkSceptile333 · Oct 26, 2008

****, this is a pretty good find.

Z1GMA · Oct 26, 2008

One little intresting question...
At the beginning of the match, one could spam a few dairs to make stale moves
affect the knockback of dair (not hitting opponent)... giving the combo a higher success rate?
(assuming they won't bounce as high as when hit by a fresh dair)
Right or wrong? =/

hyperstation · Oct 26, 2008

Z1GMA said:
One little intresting question...
At the beginning of the match, one could spam a few dairs to make stale moves
affect the knockback of dair (not hitting opponent)... giving the combo a higher success rate?
(assuming they won't bounce as high as when hit by a fresh dair)
Right or wrong? =/

Not sure, actually. I think moves only become stale if you connect with them. If you miss a handful of dairs, I think the first one that connects would still be fresh. I'm not sure though.

PK-ow! · Oct 26, 2008

You have to hit something, be it a character, a handheld item, or a bike.

Hitting shields counts too.

Good that the video is up. Confirmed that this isn't some infernal super physics AT thing that could take hours of study deep in the windowless cell of my subterranean Brawl laboratory.

. . . I've said too much.

Z1GMA · Oct 27, 2008

hyperstation said:
I think moves only become stale if you connect with them.

lol I didn't know that^^

Adapt · Oct 27, 2008

good stuff

Few points:
- You can stale your dair on objects that you can attack (like the shyguys in Yoshi's and the columns in Luigi's stages)
- I'm pretty sure stale moves have less hitstun as well as less knockback
- Heavy character's suffer less from hitstun than light characters. So it's more likely that bowser can escape than other heavies.

Jim Morrison · Oct 27, 2008

Couldn't you u-air lock them?

Swoops · Oct 27, 2008

The stun isn't long enough...plus autocanceled u-air doesn't hit a lot of people on the ground.

fromundaman · Oct 27, 2008

Great find! I only saw this now, but am very excited to go try it out. Thanks Blad!

Blad01 · Dec 26, 2008

A2ZOMG finally uploaded my vid, thanks to him ^^

But now it's near useless lol, but here it is : http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=bwj8O3i8EdA&feature=channel_page.

60% Combo on Heavies ! (Edited : Now with Videos !)

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