Falco's Entire Move Set Degeneration in Damage + Knock Back

Hey everyone I had some free time on my hands and thought I'd post Falco's entire move set degeneration in a damage and knock back perspective. The first number is the sum of all damage before that hit, and the second number is the individual damage per hit finally, the third number is the percentage of damage compared to the first hit. The third number is also my hypothesis of the knock back of each move compared to the first attack. I know some of you might disagree with me, but I think damage percent and knock back percent go hand in hand. This all goes up in the air anyway when you factor in directional influence of the opponent. All damage was done on a Snake in Brawl mode on Final Destination. One exception was for Forward Air, when I had to move Snake on a platform on Battlefield before every attack.

Front Smash
1. 15 - 15 - 100%
2. 29 - 14 - 93%
3. 41 - 12 - 80%
4. 52 - 11 - 73%
5. 62 - 10 - 67%
6. 71 - 9 - 60%
7. 79 - 8 - 53%
8. 87 - 8 - 53%
9. 94 - 7 - 46%

Down Smash
1. 15 - 15 - 100%
2. 29 - 14 - 93%
3. 41 - 12 - 80%
4. 52 - 11 - 73%
5. 62 - 10 - 67%
6. 71 - 9 - 60%
7. 79 - 8 - 53%
8. 87 - 8 - 53%
9. 94 - 7 - 46%

Up Smash
1. 14 - 14 - 100%
2. 27 - 13 - 92%
3. 38 - 11 - 78%
4. 48 - 10 - 71%
5. 58 - 10 - 71%
6. 66 - 8 - 57%
7. 74 - 8 - 57%
8. 81 - 7 - 50%
9. 88 - 7 - 50%

Front Tilt
1. 9 - 9 - 100%
2. 17 - 8 - 89%
3. 24 - 7 - 78%
4. 31 - 7 - 78%
5. 37 - 6 - 66%
6. 42 - 5 - 55%
7. 47 - 5 - 55%
8. 52 - 5 - 55%
9. 56 - 4 - 44%

Front Tilt High
1. 9 - 9 - 100%
2. 17 - 8 - 89%
3. 24 - 7 - 78%
4. 31 - 7 - 78%
5. 37 - 6 - 66%
6. 42 - 5 - 55%
7. 47 - 5 - 55%
8. 52 - 5 - 55%
9. 56 - 4 - 44%

Front Tilt Low
1. 9 - 9 - 100%
2. 17 - 8 - 89%
3. 24 - 7 - 78%
4. 31 - 7 - 78%
5. 37 - 6 - 66%
6. 42 - 5 - 55%
7. 47 - 5 - 55%
8. 52 - 5 - 55%
9. 56 - 4 - 44%

Down Tilt
1. 12 - 12 - 100%
2. 23 - 11 - 92%
3. 33 - 10 - 83%
4. 41 - 8 - 67%
5. 49 - 8 - 67%
6. 56 - 7 - 53%
7. 63 - 7 - 53%
8. 69 - 6 - 50%
9. 75 - 6 - 50%

Up Tilt
1. 9 - 9 - 100%
2. 17 - 8 - 89%
3. 24 - 7 - 78%
4. 31 - 7 - 78%
5. 37 - 6 - 66%
6. 42 - 5 - 55%
7. 47 - 5 - 55%
8. 52 - 5 - 55%
9. 56 - 4 - 44%

Neutral Air
1. 12 - 12 - 100%
2. 23 - 11 - 92%
3. 33 - 10 - 83%
4. 41 - 8 - 67%
5. 49 - 8 - 67%
6. 56 - 7 - 53%
7. 63 - 7 - 53%
8. 69 - 6 - 50%
9. 75 - 6 - 50%

Up Air
1. 11 - 11 - 100%
2. 21 - 10 - 91%
3. 30 - 9 - 82%
4. 38 - 8 - 73%
5. 45 - 7 - 64%
6. 52 - 7 - 64%
7. 58 - 6 - 55%
8. 63 - 5 - 46%
9. 69 - 6 - 55%

Down Air
1. 13 - 13 - 100%
2. 25 - 12 - 93%
3. 35 - 10 - 77%
4. 45 - 10 - 77%
5. 53 - 8 - 62%
6. 61 - 8 - 62%
7. 68 - 7 - 54%
8. 75 - 7 - 54%
9. 81 - 6 - 46%

Back Air
1. 13 - 13 - 100%
2. 25 - 12 - 93%
3. 35 - 10 - 77%
4. 45 - 10 - 77%
5. 53 - 8 - 62%
6. 61 - 8 - 62%
7. 68 - 7 - 54%
8. 75 - 7 - 54%
9. 81 - 6 - 46%

Front Air
1. 13 - 13 - 100%
2. 25 - 12 - 93%
3. 35 - 10 - 77%
4. 45 - 10 - 77%
5. 53 - 8 - 62%
6. 61 - 8 - 62%
7. 68 - 7 - 54%
8. 75 - 7 - 54%
9. 81 - 6 - 46%

Shine
1. 6 - 6 - 100%
2. 11 - 5 - 83%
3. 16 - 5 - 83%
4. 20 - 4 - 67%
5. 24 - 4 - 67%
6. 28 - 4 - 67%
7. 31 - 3 - 50%
8. 34 - 3 - 50%
9. 37 - 3 - 50%

Phantasm
1. 7 - 7 - 100%
2. 13 - 6 - 86%
3. 19 - 6 - 86%
4. 24 - 5 - 71%
5. 29 - 5 - 71%
6. 33 - 4 - 57%
7. 37 - 4 - 57%
8. 40 - 3 - 43%
9. 44 - 4 - 57%

Fire bird
1. 14 - 14 - 100%
2. 27 - 13 - 93%
3. 41 - 14 - 100%
4. 51 - 10 - 71%
5. 60 - 9 - 64%
6. 68 - 8 - 57%
7. 78 - 10 - 71%
8. 85 - 7 - 50%
9. 91 - 6 - 42%

Laser
1. 3 - 3 - 100%
2. 5 - 2 - 67%
3. 8 - 3 - 100%
4. 8 - 3 - 100%
5. 10 - 2 - 67%
6. 12 - 2 - 67%
7. 14 - 2 - 67%
8. 15 - 1 - 33%
9. 17 - 2 - 67%

Cool, interesting to see. The firebird's probably a bit inconsistent because different amounts of it hit... but I'm confused why something like the laser or phantasm would go up at the end.

ftl said:

Cool, interesting to see. The firebird's probably a bit inconsistent because different amounts of it hit... but I'm confused why something like the laser or phantasm would go up at the end.

Click to expand...

I originally thought that as well, but I tried it numerous times and it always came out the same.

It's possible that laser/phantasm have a decimal to their degeneration, and when you use the same move constantly in a row, this decimal finally makes it's appearance (+1%) by the 9th hit....

Not likely in the least, but it's one explination...

Wow, good thinking Zamz. I wish I could dissect the source code of brawl and see what causes it.

zamz said:

It's possible that laser/phantasm have a decimal to their degeneration, and when you use the same move constantly in a row, this decimal finally makes it's appearance (+1%) by the 9th hit....

Not likely in the least, but it's one explination...

Click to expand...

this was my guess as well and it seems reasonable
if it does 3.2 (showing a 3 total) then 2.5 (5.7 showing a 5 total) then 2.3 (8.0 showing a 8 total)
then it would appear to go from 3 to 2 to 3 even though it may not be the case
the best moves because of this decimal problem would be to attack then have the opponent jump off, then attack them again that way they start from 0.0 every time.
imo the difference won't help much so don't feel pressured to repeat the test.

there is infact decimals on mast attacks.

one way you can get the decimal is do the attack 10 times (you might have to attack a third person to get the degeneration to the right hit) then divide by 10. or 100 if the attack does less than 10% if your up for it. you would probebly have to make some sort of "Box like" custom stage to not kill them.

Can I see this with knockback because its a major part of the moves, I personally think its more important than the damage. I heard you just do inches on a screen or something. I dunno.

Anyone have any ideas how to do measure knock back?

GenesisJLS said:

Anyone have any ideas how to do measure knock back?

Click to expand...

I dunno, try to do it as a percentage of FD. But that would be hard.

Updated my first post, I'm making an educated guess that damage ratio goes hand in hand with knock back. This all goes up in the air anyway when you factor in directional influence of the opponent.

GenesisJLS said:

Updated my first post, I'm making an educated guess that damage ratio goes hand in hand with knock back. This all goes up in the air anyway when you factor in directional influence of the opponent.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it does so thats a great idea. I'm gonna see if this does the same with fair for Jigglypuff because that could be so useful for kills.

Please rate and made this stick or add it to the blad01's thread!

GenesisJLS said:

Anyone have any ideas how to do measure knock back?

Click to expand...

blocks on a custom stage for horizontal and vertical

Hype said:

blocks on a custom stage for horizontal and vertical

Click to expand...

Still that's extremely hard to measure exactly.

GenesisJLS said:

Still that's extremely hard to measure exactly.

Click to expand...

Yeah, some guy had it measured. Try PMing this guy:

Jeepy Sol

Jeepy did it in training mode. It would not be any help here.

GenesisJLS said:

Jeepy did it in training mode. It would not be any help here.

Click to expand...

Oh ok. How did he do it in training mode??

He did KO potential, also I think his findings are no where near accurate.

GenesisJLS said:

He did KO potential, also I think his findings are no where near accurate.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that wouldn't be very accurate. Ummm.... slow-mo on a custom stage!!

More like we need an emulator for the Wii for PC/Mac that can run Smash. I'd take screen shots after every damage and do measurements in Photoshop.

GenesisJLS said:

More like we need an emulator for the Wii for PC/Mac that can run Smash. I'd take screen shots after every damage and do measurements in Photoshop.

Click to expand...

That would be awesome but Nintendo would freak out... We can do it with replays and then screenshots and see how far they go.... in relative distance to a custom stage...

That's a very interesting thread, i've added it to my links thread, good job Genesis

About the knockback, the best way to mesure it is maybe in VS mode, but yeah that would be approximative and lonnng. :/

If you want to take the time to measure the knockback at every decay level it's not very hard. It's kinda long though. Go to a normal brawl on luigi's mansion and hit the bottom pillar until you are at the desired decay level, and then hit mario. Exit the game and record the "max launcher speed"

This will give you concrete numbers to base your %knockback on.

Thanks for the info Adapt, but doesn't the launcher speed depend on the weight of the character? I'm about to try it and find out.

yes it does, but the percentage of decayed to fresh shouldn't change between character.

if you look in Mr. Silver's thread in the tactical discussion you can convert knockback of mario to all other characters. People use Mario because he is considered the median character.

Do you want me to take screenshots for the knockback?

Here's one for the Fsmash! (I lied, I think it might actually be the Dsmash)

Adapt said:

If you want to take the time to measure the knockback at every decay level it's not very hard. It's kinda long though. Go to a normal brawl on luigi's mansion and hit the bottom pillar until you are at the desired decay level, and then hit mario. Exit the game and record the "max launcher speed"

This will give you concrete numbers to base your %knockback on.

Click to expand...

Oh wow thats a great idea. Nice idea.

Wow Water just wow.

GenesisJLS said:

Wow Water just wow.

Click to expand...

I think Adapt's idea was amazing. I'm gonna see how that works for Jigglypuff.

Illin, I used sandbags, instead. That way, you don't have to worry about Luigi's Mansion getting in the way.

Wow, thanks.

Thanks. I still find it stupid how attacks may get better at the 9th degeneration stage.