Counterpicking Made Easy (Tactical Duplicate)

Seeing the Stage Advantages for Characters Chart and seeing its current unreadability - the thought came that there could always be something simpler. Knowing your enemy and how they will react to their environment could be the deciding factor in whether victory is a sure thing or something almost unobtainable. Below, a working list of all the characters in Brawl and their general consensus on what are their 3 best and 3 worst stages. The easy way to counterpick!

Please help contribute to the empty spaces or correct existing ones.

Bowser
Best: Norfair, Battlefield, Castle Siege
Worst: Jungle Japes, Brinstar

Captain Falcon
Best: Battlefield, Distant Planet
Worst: Final Destination

Diddy Kong
Best: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville
Worst: Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise

Donkey Kong
Best: Corneria, Brinstar, Jungle Japes
Worst: Skyworld, Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise

Falco
Best: Jungle Japes, Final Destination
Worst: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion

Fox
Best: Smashville, Final Destination
Worst: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise

Game & Watch
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Corneria
Worst: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Mario Circuit

Ganondorf
Best: Pirate Ship, Norfair, Brinstar
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Port Town Aero Drive, Mario Circuit

Ice Climbers
Best: Final Destination, Smashville, Pictochat
Worst: Rainbow Cruise

Ike
Best: Corneria, Green Greens, Pirate Ship
Worst: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Luigi's Mansion

Jigglypuff
Best: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Smashville
Worst: Corneria, Battlefield

King Dedede
Best: Green Greens, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Jungle Japes, Brinstar, Norfair

Kirby
Best: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar
Worst: Luigi's Mansion, Pirate Ship

Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Smashville
Worst: Frigate Orpheon

Lucario
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Corneria, Green Greens, Rainbow Cruise

Lucas
Best: Norfair, Brinstar, Luigi's Mansion
Worst: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island

Luigi
Best: Battlefield, Smashville, Corneria
Worst: Final Destination, Jungle Japes

Mario
Best: Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Battlefield
Worst: Jungle Japes, Pirate Ship

Marth
Best: Battlefield, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Brinstar, Skyworld

Meta Knight
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Skyworld
Worst: Yoshi's Island (Melee), Green Greens, Corneria

Ness
Best: Delfino Plaza, Norfair, Pirate Ship
Worst: Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Olimar
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Corneria, Norfair
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon

Peach
Best: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar
Worst: Corneria, Skyworld, Onett

Pikachu
Best: Corneria, Smashville, Final Destination
Worst: Luigi's Mansion

Pit
Best: Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Worst: Pokemon Stadium 1

Pokémon Trainer
Best: Norfair, Corneria, Castle Siege
Worst: Jungle Japes

Squirtle
Best: Battlefield, Norfair, Delfino Plaza
Worst:

Ivysaur
Best: Norfair, Green Greens
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island

Charizard
Best: Halberd
Worst:

R.O.B.
Best: Frigate Orpheon, Luigi's Mansion, Lylat Cruise
Worst: Green Greens, Distant Planet, Norfair

Samus
Best: Battlefield, Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, Yoshi's Island

:shiek: Sheik
Best: Battlefield, Halberd
Worst:

Snake
Best: Brinstar, Corneria, Halberd
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Final Destination

Sonic
Best: Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens
Worst: Brinstar, Distant Planet, Jungle Japes

Toon Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Pirate Ship
Worst: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion

Wario
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Final Destination

Wolf
Best: Smashville, Yoshi's Island
Worst: Lylat Cruise

Yoshi
Best: Halberd, Final Destination, Rainbow Cruise
Worst: Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Frigate Orpheon

Zelda
Best: Smashville, Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion
Worst: Lylat Cruise, Delfino Plaza, Halberd

Zero Suit Samus
Best: Yoshi's Island, Norfair, Battlefield,
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes

Keep in mind this is just a general outlook on how characters do on specific stages - not to mention a democratic one. To truly excel in choosing the correct counterpick against any character or player look at things personally and carefully; don't blindly follow a list.

Here's the official list of legal stages: SBR Recommended Rule List: Brawl.

I also recommend watching this: The Art of Counterpicking Stages.

This is a transplanted thread from the Stage Discussion board: Original Counterpicking Made Easy. It seemed a bit out of place within the many "What's your favorite..." threads, so I asked a mod to see if it was okay to move it here, and they agreed.

Hopefully I'll receive better feedback - thank you.

samus' best stage is probably *battlefield* but also possibly frigate orpheon, halberd, or lylat according to samus boards stage discussion.
final destination while good for samus, doesn't let her take advantage of her platfom game ^^
while battlefield let's her play the edge, platform projectile cancel, and use her screw attacks well...
also rainbow cruise is probably a good choice for one of her worst levels because it effectively kills her spacing and ledge game.... not nearly as much but I also find luigi's mansion fairly annoying because the pillars cancel her missiles, though zair is still comes in handy... but it makes it harder to space, which is the heart of most samus players' game.
For starter levels, Yoshi's Island is probably her worst because of the ledges, and small size, and also how its random offledge platforms make it harder to gimp... those stupid shy guys are pretty annoying too lol, but she doesn't perform horribly here at all, just not as well as other starters imo

Couldn't they move the whole thread with the other posts? :o

Anyway, -subscribes-

As a Samus main, I don't usually like FD, it depends on the opponent, but most of the time, i prefer BattleField.

I thought Skyworld was like hardbanned, why is it listed as Marth and DK's worst stage?

Also, due to ridiculous shuttle loop kills or something, I heard Yoshi's Island in Melee actually isn't that bad a stage for Metaknight.

rehab said:

I thought Skyworld was like hardbanned, why is it listed as Marth and DK's worst stage?

Also, due to ridiculous shuttle loop kills or something, I heard Yoshi's Island in Melee actually isn't that bad a stage for Metaknight.

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It's in the counter/banned category, so it's truly up to the TO whether or not it is available.

Personally, I'd replace Yoshi's with Jungle Japes for Lucario.

Not too sure what his third worst stage would be. Rainbow Cruise mebbe.

Also, this is a good thread and ought to be linked in the character boards.

As far as Lucas is concerned, Brinstar is better than Luigi's Mansion for him

MK's only bad legal stage is Green Greens at this point.

Also, put down Brinstar for Snake as Best.

MysticKenji said:

MK's only bad legal stage is Green Greens at this point.

Also, put down Brinstar for Snake as Best.

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Why? It's pretty easy to gimp snake there.

Brinstar is definately Link's worst, not frigate orpheon. Brinstar is small, uneven, and stresses close combat, which are all of Link's weaknesses. I vote changing Frigate Orpheon to Brinstar.

You can add Jungle Japes to ZSS's bad stages

I'm keeping this list as impersonal as possible - but every once in awhile I'll add in my two cents.

MysticKenji said:

MK's only bad legal stage is Green Greens at this point.

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I'll disagree. Yoshi's Island Melee is one of my favorite picks against MK.

The slopes prevent dsmash KOs via teching. Shuttle Loop gets stuck in the platforms. And there's only one side for for edgeguarding - both for limiting edgeguard kills and nullifying his recovery. Plus the place is TINY giving you a better chance of killing him.

TLink_King said:

Why? It's pretty easy to gimp snake there.

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I can't really see how considering you should be recovering high and out of the way 80%+ of all characters edgeguards.

Peach's worst stage is not Lylat. I don't get why anyone would ever think that. It is honestly matchup dependant. Hell, Lylat can definitely put you in advantage in certain matchups.

Brinstar is a good CP for Ike but I think Pirat Ship is better. He would recover better since there's water, can platform abuse and it's more fun to spike people in water IMO.

I don't understand how Luigi's Mansion is Kirby's worst stage. Its actually one of his better ones if I remember correctly. Not sure on his worst one though...

Gea said:

Peach's worst stage is not Lylat. I don't get why anyone would ever think that. It is honestly matchup dependant. Hell, Lylat can definitely put you in advantage in certain matchups.

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I agree, Corneria Melee, for instance, is worse than Lylat...the OMG SUPER CLOSE blast zones work way worse against her than to her advantage (vs. specific chars).

R.O.B.'s best level is Lylat Cruise? o_O

DRaGZ said:

R.O.B.'s best level is Lylat Cruise? o_O

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I think I got that from a ROB guide when I first started investigating for this thread. It was one of those that nobody refuted.

Suggestion?

Overswarm has the answer here.

I would think Luigi's Mansion is great for Falco.

R.O.B.
Best: Lylat Cruise


...No?

Grunt said:

I would think Luigi's Mansion is great for Falco.

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yes you can DAC into the pillars so people can't spot dodge you dash attack, but the pillars stop lasers and the roof messes with the timing of SHDL.

Nintendevil said:

R.O.B.
Best: Lylat Cruise


...No?

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Fine, I guess I'll do the digging myself then.

Alrighty, taking from Overswarm's guide - Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon, and Lylat Cruise as his best. Distant Planet, Green Greens, and Norfair as his worst.

For Yoshi, I'd replace Delfino Plaza with Halberd and Port Town Aero Dive with Rainbow Cruise. For his worst stages, I'll say Jungle Japes, Green Greens, and Frigate Orpheon.

Halberd is basically Delfino Plaza but with hazards. Yoshi can easily take advantage of those hazards. Delfino Plaza is still good for him, though. I just find Halberd to be better.

Port Town Aero Dive is really not a good place for Yoshi because of how difficult it is to survive there (Isn't this stage normally banned, anyways?). Now, with Rainbow Cruise Yoshi has a myriad of options to approach with because of his great aerial game. It's basically the best stage to choose when fighting some of Yoshi's harder match-ups (Falco, Zelda, King Dedede...).

Yoshi does bad on Jungle Japes because it is easy for him to get gimped there. Also, while it may just be me, I always fall into those stupid Klap-Traps. >_>

Green Greens should be obvious. Those star blocks gimp Yoshi REALLY badly. He has to spend his time in the middle platform, where he is succeptable to being camped.

Frigate Orpheon is bad because Yoshi can't regularly chain-grab there and has a bad layout for him.

I'll go into more detail about these if you want me to.

MenoUnderwater said:

Fine, I guess I'll do the digging myself then.

Alrighty, taking from Overswarm's guide - Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon, and Lylat Cruise as his best. Distant Planet, Green Greens, and Norfair as his worst.

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Choose Orpheon. It doesn't have great advantages for any other character, but it's got great advantages for R.O.B.

On the other hand, Mansion is great for some other characters and Lylat is simply because R.O.B.'s recovery isn't messed up by the tilting stage.

=]

Great work Meno! You must have gotten the opinions of many smashers beforehand, amirite?

BTW- This needs a sticky.

Care to explain why Luigi's Mansion is a good Falco stage? I would enjoy the feedback.

can you explain to me why mk has a disadvantage on Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Green Greens?

Norfair for Olimar? He'd much prefers Luigi's mansion and Corneria now.

Joxer said:

can you explain to me why mk has a disadvantage on Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Green Greens?

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MenoUnderwater said:

Yoshi's Island Melee is one of my favorite picks against MK.

The slopes prevent dsmash KOs via teching. Shuttle Loop gets stuck in the platforms. And there's only one side for for edgeguarding - both for limiting edgeguard kills and nullifying his recovery. Plus the place is TINY giving you a better chance of killing him.

Click to expand...

Green Greens offers some of the same aspects. Blocks prevent dsmash kills, close blastzones allow for actual deaths, stupid MKs will set off the blocks with their ultra-ranged attacks, Praxis wrote some stuff up about it...

I also read somewhere Norfair is good against him, due to the many ledges irritating his edgeguarding.

those sonic choices are sooooooooooo wrong

MenoUnderwater said:

Green Greens offers some of the same aspects. Blocks prevent dsmash kills, close blastzones allow for actual deaths, stupid MKs will set off the blocks with their ultra-ranged attacks, Praxis wrote some stuff up about it...

I also read somewhere Norfair is good against him, due to the many ledges irritating his edgeguarding.

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I wish this knowledge was more generally known. People still whine all the time about how MK has no bad stages.

memphischains said:

those sonic choices are sooooooooooo wrong

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Please help contribute to the empty spaces or correct existing ones.
Thank you.

nice sig Blackbelt

why are you posting stages that barely see competitive play?

Battlefield and Luigi's Mansion are also very good Zelda stages ;3

Rainbow Cruise is not a bad stage for Dedede

The boat right at the start has a wall for a chaingrab infinite, multiple jumps make him very mobile, can chaingrab to kill with walk offs, can kill pretty well on it

For sure doesn't do bad on it