The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Mmac]

Welcome to our new Matchup Thread! I felt that the current one was too cluttered and disorganized, so I decided to start from scratch, with the hard part cut out already.

How Sweet is that!


So even though this is "Complete", I am still doing a weekly discussion to finalize the Matchups, as some of them are still heavily debatable.



Characters that are Finalized or near Finalized -

- Snake, Dedede, ROB
- Marth, Lucario, Wario, Diddy, Kirby, Pit, Wolf
- Toon Link, Olimar, ZSS, Ike, Sheik
- Lucas, Mario, Pokemon Trainer (Excluding Charizard), Samus, Sonic, Link

Characters that the Said Character Matchup Thread hasn't Discussed us, but is probably correct -

- Pikachu
- Luigi, Peach
- Ness, Ganondorf

Characters that are under Heavy Discussion, and will probably Change -

- Game & Watch, Falco
- DK
- Zelda

Characters that should probably be discussed again... -

-MetaKnight
-Ice Climbers
-Fox, Bowser
-Charizard, Jigglypuff, C.Falcon



Updates

Oct. 26 - Made the Thread
Oct. 29 - Started Dedede
Oct. 31 - Made the "Known Matchup" Section
Nov. 19 - Remember that I had this Update Section.... Finished Dedede, and Finished Lucario and Snake. Started on Olimar
Nov. 24 - Finished Olimar, and Added Wario to the Well Known's. Started on ROB
Dec. 3 - Pushed back ROB to a later date, Put Lucas and Sonic in the Known Section. Started on Toon Link and Old Link again.


When discussing characters. If you don't know how to start your thesis, you can just use this guidelines which I totally didn't steal from the Kirby Matchup Thread.

Character: (Duh)
Difficulty rating: (Your rating of the match)
Overview: (What general strategies does this character employ against Yoshi? Does he camp? Go all out offensive?)
Pros+Cons: (What does this character have going for him? Weight? Speed? How about things we can take advantage of?)
Watch out for: (This character's favourite moves and when he'll use them)
How to win: (What KirbyYoshi needs to do to beat this character)
What NOT to do: (If you want to lose, go right ahead)
Stages: (Which to counterpick? Which to avoid?)
Synopsis: (TL;DR version)

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Week One - King Dedede

Originally Posted by bwett1

Alright, I actually was deciding not to do another description because I've done this so many times, but then I read some comments about the matchup and it charged me up so yeah, get ready beyotches!

First off, the CG DDD performs on Yoshi has strange timing and most DDD's have problems pulling it off. You cannot escape it if they have the timing proper, however because it is hard for them to do, always try to spot dodge, roll, or something everytime, just in case they screw up. Most of yall do have the right idea. Spam eggs. If you don't use eggs, the matchup moves quickly in DDD's favor.

Now let's discuss all options if both of you are on the ground. The best range you want to be at against DDD is far away. He can try to spam waddles, but as long as you stay out of that range, then you can punish him for it with eggs.

If you happen to approach DDD, there are only a few things you can do that won't be punished. Retreating bairs, or rising aerials, are really the only safe things to do. If you do bairs through the DDD, he can shield the entire thing and grab you on the other side, or possible grab you while trying to go through. It can happen. Usually you want to do interchange bair and ETS back and forth. It causes your strategy to be split between defense and offense and the DDD won't know how to approach it. If they try to approach, they will get caught by the retreating bair into other attacks. If they back up, you can egg spam. This is the absolute best strategy I have found, in fact it's pretty good against most characters (I use it quite a bit).

If he happens to shield grab alot, throw in more grabs and egglay. DJC egglay works wonders on DDD. Pivot grabs should be used quite a bit.

When you are being CG'ed by DDD, you have to keep in mind a few things. If you are at high percentage, the chance of you being CG'ed to the end of the stage is quite rare. Odds are they are going to stop the CG and use dash attack or wait for your spot dodge and utilt (And as a side note, always be wary of his ultilt. It kills at 98% or something when fresh. This is a good DDD's main killing tool besides gimping). Also, I don't know if some of you that have seen my recent vids but I have started implementing something where I will run straight at someone, they spot dodge, and I run past them to pivot grab. It works surprising well, BUT now Fogo stole it from me and is wrecking me with it with his CG's. On FD, he will CG me to the end. I usually try to spot dodge out of the grabs and he will run past and pivot another grab and go across the stage again. I've been CG'ed in one go 3 times around FD...it was the worst experience of my life lol but no other DDD knows about that just yet so ssshhhhh =P. If you do ever get that, might want to try rolling instead, that will break the cycle. He can also dtilt out of CG, which hurts.

Now, no matter what, you do not want to be above him at high percentage. Utilt has deceptive range and will connect. If yall are both in the air, connect uairs together with eggs and maybe a dair or two. This area is really where a certain yoshi's style comes out so mix it up.

The absolute worst position and what I believe makes this match 55:45 DDD is when you are off the stage and DDD is standing right at the edge. If you are ever in this position, probably the safest thing is to recover high and try to get back on without getting punished. However, if your life has become so incredibly unlucky that you must grab that ledge...personally I believe besides playing against MK in this kind of setup, this is the absolute hardest setup yoshi can be in. Now let's go through your options.

1) Get up attack can be shieldgrabbed.
2) Ledge jump can be grabbed or attacked instantly. Might work once or twice but very dangerous to do since you are so vulnerable doing that.
3) The last option available would be to do drop -> DJ - something. This part all depends on how smart the DDD you're playing is. This is super mind games lol.

3a) If you try bair, he can shieldgrab it and is rather dangerous.
3b) Dair is another option and can be quite good, but only if they don't see it coming. Also can be shield grabbed while you are coming up.
3c) DJAD is probably one of your safest options. In this instance, you have to choose where you will dodge to, either in front of him or behind him. Once again, all depends on how your opponent reacts. If he predicts the dodge through, you get grabbed and CG'ed to the other side. If he predicts in front, you get grabbed and thrown back out in the air.
3d) Egglay can be very useful as well.
3e) Depending how close to the edge they are, ECE can off some good damage, but they can dtilt or ftilt you out of it so watch out for that.

In all these instances with grabs, you have just lost your DJ. He can wait for the release and a quick edgegrab with invincibility will leave you falling to your doom.

In all actuality though, there is no safe option. If your opponent plays smart, you will punished from any of these things. Luckily, though, most DDD's won't have the reactions or timing to perform most of this. However, if you do play a smart DDD, do not put yourself in this position.

Well, it was kinda scattered and stuff but I hope this is what yall wanted. I might sound rather bleak in some situations, but it really is that hard if you are playing someone smart.

55:45 Have fun!

Week Two - Lucario


[quote]

Originally Posted by Furbs

So the point here is to kill lucario asap!!
unfortunately that's quite a bit of a difficult task because of his weight and yoshi's lackluster variety of kill moves

-Fsmash kills at around 115-125%, and at that point lucario can out range fsmash with some of his moves. One thing I've found successful is thowing an egg OVER Lucario so that he instinctively counters (MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HIT AND IT GOES HIS DIRECTION) and punishing his counter with an Fsmash.

-Upsmash kills at around 130%, although if you're underneath lucario most of the time they'll spam dair which out prioritizes the upsmash

-Uair is a blessing in the matchup killing at around 120%, "but dear Furbs" you may ask "you silly person you're coming from the same direction as when you upsmash!!!". That is true, but the two things that make this different is that Uair BARELY out-ranges lucarios dair, also what I usually do (sense the spacing is tough) is double jumping when lucario uses dair, tanking the hit and THEN uairing!!!

Now here's some things you should keep in mind on this matchup:
- If you spam eggs lucario can do two things. He can either counter (he moves forward quite a bit when he does this so he can use it to approach), or He'll start charging an aura sphere and power shield the eggs. How to solve: If lucario uses counter to approach you can actually use this as an advantage by power shielding when he reaches you and punishing with a jab combo, if lucario starts charging an aura sphere that means you're gonna have to start approaching .

- When approaching bairs are very effective, although Ftilt and Fair beat it our. it's best to use it to pressure and then use tilts when you land.

- Lucario's moves stay out for quite a while so it takes a while to get the timing right for spot dodging.

- Also pivot grab is your BEST FRIEND!!!!11!1! it outranges most of lucarios moves and can help setup for a kill.

Originally Posted by burntsocks

Lucario eh? Allow me

Lucario is going to want to zone this match, as stated before. He can approach, which is a good option, but leaves him open to ETSs easily. He can camp a little bit, but yoshi out camps, so camp for a second, then get going again. The matchup is basically a zoning matchup. Lucario is a superior zoner, but he is slow in the air, making him easy bait for eggs. However, lucario can SH fair to neutral b, so if you have a charged aura sphere, we can get punished for an egg if lucario predicts it. Lucario wants to zone with aerials and fsmash mainly. lucario can shield yoshis tilts and punish OOS with an utilt, cuz its so godly and fast, so i prefer to stick to jabs here. Yoshi is gonna be ETSing alot in this matchup to get away from lucarios fsmash, and to add pressure. Yoshi isnt going to be grabbin much here.

On egg roll: Its a terrible move, nobody should get hit by it. JUST GRAB THEM OUT OF IT!!!!! So difficult, it hurts XD

Originally Posted by Timbers

It seems to be the general opinion that Luc is easily gimped by everyone in the cast due to no damage ES. To save ourselves from going into a 10page debate as to why Yoshi can't "gimp Lucario pretty well", I'll just leave these notes and be done with the subject. Whether Yoshi boards believe me or not I really don't care:

-Yoshi cannot gimp Lucario easily. No one on the roster that isn't named Metaknight, MK, or ROB can gimp Lucario in realistic terms.
-If you're gimping Lucarios, they're showing you exactly what "jumping into the rape" looks like. Luc has a plethora of options for returning to the stage. Mostly passive, but it's enough to escape a lot of character's onslaughts. A good example is that, so long as Lucario has saved his midair, he can easily survive a DDD WoP. You have to find a surefire way to take out that Luc's midair while getting around his high priority aerials. A lucario that can't successfully execute every option given to him are the ones that are easily gimped. These claims are about as true as the ones talking about how easy it is to go out there and footstool a Yoshi's midair.
-To gimp a Lucario, it's 10% skill on the player's part, and 90% dumb decision by the Lucario. Play a Lucario that knows how to pull out all the stops to make his recovery a safe one.
-Luc's fair outranges and outprioritizes all of Yoshi's aerials but the fair (and if you're coming at us with an fair that's one of the easiest things in the world to avoid) and aurasphere can wreak havoc on Yoshi's generally low priority aerials (this is in contrast to the likes of Marth, or DDD's bair. Things that are just walled up with priority and range) Luc also has his dair, which cuts his momentum. We can use it to stall if an opponent is attempting to come out to pressure us. A character like Yoshi, it's relatively easy to avoid him with this method as Yoshi's limited offstage game due to the recovery being...limited.
-Combined with Luc's tools to getting back to the stage, as well as the dair stalling, he also has an impressively good midair jump and is one of the floatiest characters in the game; making it no difficult task to make it back to the stage with his midair alone.
-Should Yoshi somehow knock Lucario out of his midair (an egg is the only realistic option here) and the Lucario is forced to ES, it's possible to go for an fair spike or running (offstage) uair. At this height, a fresh uair will kill Lucario at 140-150? I can't remember. This has happened to me once before, and only once, but it is possible. If you were to followup with a nair or something the Lucario can easily DI the hit and be put into an even better position to recover. Luc's aerial movement is good, and he is very floaty. Anything that can't spike or semispike him is only going to help him recover.

I'd put the game in Luc's advantage. Numbers..I guess 6:4 Lucario. Whether you agree with me or not is up to you, but there is definitely an advantage to Lucario here.

On top of bair and fsmash, it's key to watch out for uair and aurasphere. Uair especially, it kills at surprisingly low (well lower than originally anticipated. 100% Lucario will take out someone like Yoshi at 120-130% from fulljumped height) percents when left fresh.

Keep in mind that dair does completely stall Lucario for a small duration, which leaves him relatively safe when the Luc has taken into account the opponents position. Wildly dairing whenever someone gets close to you is being predictable and is player error more than character error.

I think the hardest thing for Yoshi here is how difficult it will be for him to grab kills here. You mentioned that it's a general GG for the Lucario if Yoshi can get a low percent kill on Lucario, but Lucario getting a kill on Yoshi at near any percent is going to wreak havoc on Yoshi's next stock. We can still camp you, except our auraspheres are doing 7-8% instead of 4-5%, and comboing Yoshi is easy due to size, even at those percents. an Fair->dair alone is an easy 30%, and sets up for an additional 10-20% depending on the Yoshi's reactions and how well the Lucario is capable of executing the next attack (example being to aurasphere a read midair). This holds true for a lot of characters, but Yoshi definitely has a harder time setting up killers here than others on the roster. Yoshi's approach options do suffer against a Lucario this high in the percents due to aurasphere's increasing priority and ability to demolish most of his approach options.

Of course if Yoshi gets the kill on first stock then we're stretchin for a kill on you guys, and that might not happen until 180%.

Just know that Luc is never down and out, especially against a character with rather low kill potential.

Week Three - Link

Originally Posted by Swordplay

You guys are doin Link again?

We'll Ive done some testing and here is what I have found.

chaingrab on Link is almost not a factor. Link almost always has a bomb. If you even try to go for the CG, they will recognize and just bomb spam for a bit.

Zair isn't as big of a problem for Yoshi as other characters. Yoshi's should always be moving around in this matchup and take advantage of their air speed and such.

Yoshi's projectile game doesn't beat Links but it does stop Link from spamming. Link will go moble and forced into playing his spacing game again.

A Yoshi Hyphen smash Destroys Links spacing. He gets in there pretty quickly. Only thing Link has on Yoshi is mauling his recovery. It is very easy to Dair Yoshi's recovery and send him flying. -Eh, not really. It depends on how Link uses the Dair, but even still, It's not that hard for Yoshi's to avoid Link's Edgeguarding options if he is smart with his recovery options. -Mmac


Yea we all thought it looked bad on paper for Yoshi but nobody considered how much of an asset air speed was in this matchup. It completely revamps the entire matchup. Yoshi gets in with that airspeed and follows up with quick tilts and stuff. Link has very few options as he doesn't have the moveset to counter this. Link is weak from behind so bairing past him is a great idea. I'll top it off with the fact that Link has laggy moves which yoshi can take a major advantage of once he gets past the fact that they are disjointed. But seriously, airspeed is such a major asset in this matchup. More so than you could ever think.

Its 50:50 against Link.

Week Four - Snake


Finished... I guess... Summary Coming Soon

Week Five - Olimar


There was too much discussion here to put in such small space. Alot of good stuff between Post 341 and Post 368. Too Lazy to write an summery at the moment...

Week Six - ROB


Also needs a Summary!!

Week Seven - Toon Link

Originally Posted by Chaco

I don't see why Yoshi doesn't have the advantage over Toon Link. Let's look at this from all perspectives.

Starting out the match, Toon Link will almost ALWAYS go for a SH to grab a bomb. Almost all TL's I've played almost always start with this. Drop eggs on their ***. It blows the bomb on them, so you get double damage. Toon Link will projectile fire back, but your Bair eats his arrows. It will also cancel the boomerang. Your projecile is harder for them to cancel because of the way it comes in, as it is for everyone. It arcs. So therefore they'd have to time the cancel if your barraging and egg pressuring them. If you alternate long thrown eggs with medium and approach while doing so, you've got him kind pinned. I'd stop about 4 Yoshi lengths away though, and go for a dash attack. It's so under used, but It's great! Because if you buffer it right you can peg them with another as they're getting up. And force them off the edge. You can throw little soft eggs off the edge a little bit back that drop a lot. These really mess with recovery and if they dodge that, after they initiate their B-Up, Dair to Nair them. This is a really good offstage combo that can, and will, kill.

Let's talk about aerials here, Toon Links will abuse Bair like an Asian hooker. No lies they will do it, as much as we use our bair. So, what to do when they start landing them on you? It does have a bit longer start up time than nair. Hmm, how bout nair? Duh! It will knock them back and give you control of the match again. So we got bair covered, nair is a good SH'er and Yoshi does good at avoiding those, so I'll not worry much about it. Fair is not that great since is sword is so short and lack good range. So you retreat a fair back, your disjoint would beat their fair. I'm fairly sure this works. Fair aslo is easily countered by a soft back egg momentum toss. Your momentum takes you back and the soft egg rapes them. I never see any Yoshi think to do this. I mean in the heat of battle I don't either. But it has some great capabilities. I've done something like it before. They're Uair is a pain, especially on stages like BF. It can under platform rape you and stays out for a long time. But luckily for us, it does stay out long, and can give you time to work around into a better position, if they whiff they're uair. Dair is also an annoyance, but it can be equally annoying for them. Since if they miss they're screwed, hardcore. You can easily punish them on this move, but if they do connect, they can double hit on you, and then follow up with Uair. This little string is a real shot to the nads. And can be really annoying at high percents. Oh! Let's move onto the Yosho recovery factor, which every TL always perfectly places Dairs on your DJ. WRONG. It doesn't happen like that, and is really hard to do so. You don't go out after Yoshi, or you will pay. Also, they always won't plummet to their death. They can pull out a bomb, jump out high. Z to drop the bomb and use Dair to recatch it. So if they do miss it explodes saving them before they die. But! If they do this, and they do miss. And you know they're not going to die, go down their and dair them. You get the kill, and they go bye-bye.

But let's focus on what TL can and will do to you now. His Fsmash has great range, and can trip you up. It also kills fairly easy. (Does anyone know if nair is fast enough to come out before the second hit?) So try to shield this, then punish with your tilts. Dsmash at around 20%, can launch you off the stage, and can put you in very bad situations. Usmash is fairly annoying to, and has a great hyphen use. So they will use this, so be prepared to dodge it, or shield punish it. If you see them coming you can also lay out a soft egg to hold them at bay, and follow it closely and then grab them. Then make use of your Dthrow, it works good in this match up. Dthrow to Bair works great. But don't try for Uair a lot, because they have time to recover enough for a dair on you. But if you angle your uair, it could be used to fake them. So if they dair. They will whiff and give you the edge. This match is all about thinking. Yoshi has the skill application advantage. When using them as they are needed it will throw the match in your favor.

TL's grabbing animation is quite mediocre, and comes out fast but stays out for a long time. So, make him miss you, then punish him! you have grabs over him, make him scared to try and grab you. This gets to their heads, fearing grabs because they know they have the chance of screwing up awfully.

Also, make use of your pivot grab and grab him out of his bair and other moves. It works great, and throws the match in your favor.

Week Eight -Mr. Game & Watch

Originally Posted by burntsocks

I say its 40-60 G&Ws favor from a bit of recent tournament G-dubs practice. Yoshis uair beats his dair after the first few frames if we space it right, run away from bairs most of the time and ETS, this will not only put pressure, but he will more than likely DI towards u most of the time to try and stop u from your ETS, which is what you want, because yoshi can SHIELD GRAB bair if he is DIing in. Isnt life sweet =) Be aggressive when he is not, make him second guess his game with eggs, dont be an idiot and get hit by his smashes(at least get killed with his predictable fair rather than smashes), you can dtilt but only if you dont suspect a dtilt of his own, if he does that just ETS. G&W can juggle u with nairs and uairs(god i hate that move), dont down b please, just do your best to combine egg momentum shifts and be tricky and get down while taking minimum damage. He cant dsmash from down throw but he can do numerous things depending on your reaction, so if hes smart, you will likely get hit with a follow up or regrabbed a few times a match. Mix up ur techs.

The thing about G&W is he has really lackluster options when you are near him, compared to yoshi who has a magnificent jab and ftilt. Make him play your game, take as little damage as you can from his bairs and try to punish if possible, ALWAYS GO FOR THE UAIR! This is really what i would suggest, he cant dair to safety, so he has to just fall, and at that point, its fine cuz hes falling and you can do whatever you do to any other character(people do different things). Dash attack is a no no here(not like i use it anyways), and G&W still wins because of his survivability(bucket cancel can pretty much make him last long than snake on FD against horizontal kills), and because hes a really good character with amazing hitboxes. Thats it.

Burnt is going to be mad at me

Week Nine - Jigglypuff


Coming back to this one

Week Ten - Zelda

[Mmac]

Well Known Matchups

These are Matchups we have gone over a Thousand times to the point were a Weekly Matchup isn't really necessary, or has been already previously discussed with the repersenting community. All these matchups are located in this Post.

Falco


Falco is downright mean. Lasers = Pain. Priority = Pain. Aerials = Pain. Smashes = Pain. Reflector = Pain. Chaingrab = Pain.

Everything about this **** Bird is a pain for us!

However, with the development of a Zero Death we have on him, This has changed into one of our, or if not, THE Hardest Matchup, into something that isn't not as hard. Mastering Chaingrab Buffering is vital in this matchup, because it's really the only thing we have on him, and makes this matchup winnable. The overall strategy is to get close to him while avoiding the lasers to the best of your ability. Once you get Close, Falco is either going to defend himself in his current position, or escape with Side B. Your job is to snag him whenever you see a moment to do so. Pivot Grab him out of the air, Snag him out of a bad Reflector Kick or Side B Escape. Something like that. Once he's grabbed, he should be dead. It's as simple as that.

There still some natural aspects you have on him which doesn't make this Matchup completely naturally one sided like your Jab, Bair, Nair, and even Ledge Cancelled Eggs. This Matchup can be a Nightmare for EITHER Character! This Matchup is so over the place, that neither community don't know what to put the Ratio as!


Marth


Marth is a Rather annoying matchup, and a good one used by someone who knows how to use him is one of the harder matchups for us. He's got a pretty long sword and good speed and hitboxes to back it up, which instantly spells trouble for Yoshi. Pivot Grabs are not as useful as the other matchups, but it can still work against careless aggressive Marths quite well. Don't try to match him in the air though because you will probably wont win in a direct fight. Also don't stay on the ledge for very long as he has lots of Anti-Ledge attacks when he gets close.

Ftilt and Fsmash are two of the Key Moves you should use in this fight, but you need to use them well. Ftilt Works well against his Tilt and Fair game, due to it's pivoting nature (Perfect Dtilt Counter), Fast Speed, and Range. Fsmash works well due to it's pullback nature, and can really disrupt Marth's spacing game. Eggs should get alot of work here too, and Dash Grabbing can be good to catch Overly Defencive Marth's. Overall, A Marth with not much in the Spacing Game won't be as hard, but someone who does will probably take alot of effort for the win.


Wario


Wario can be a Simple, or Diffucult matchup depending on how you do against him overwell, and the ability to combo and infinite him on Release. Besides Jigglypuff, Wario is the only character that matches our aerial mobility, which can make countering aerials and Recovering somewhat a pain. He can easily pull away at the last second and fake you out easily. His Aerial game is great, and his Ground Game, while somewhat sluggish, can also be difficult to deal with.

Pivot Grabs work well here, if you know how to use them right (Remember, Wario can pull out of an aerial approach at any time). Once he gets grabbed, he is completely in your mercy! Infinite, Uair, Usmash, Fair, Dair, Hell, ANY Aerial you can do from release. Once he is grabbed, At BEST he takes 20% or more. If you know how to time the infinite, He is pretty much screwed.

Note: Wario Needs to be at least 50% before you can start the infinite, or else he will most likely break out.

Diddy Kong


If there was one thing about Diddy Kong, it's this. ANNOYING! His game pretty much revolves around Banana use. Whoever controls the Banana's, controls the fight. Lucky, We aren't as effected from the Banana's compared to every other character, but they still do effect us, and Diddy can still combo us out of them. Other than those, he doesn't really have much, but his Aerials are still pretty mean. Taking control of the Banana's practically shuts down his entire game into our favour.

We still have some aspects here. Chaingrab is the obvious one, but look out for Stray Banana's! Another thing is that Nair is excellent at picking up Banana's, and is very great at snagging thrown ones! Even though we don't have a Guide Toss, we can still make do without one. One last thing is Never, EVER, Edgeguard a Diddy from the side. It's just plain death. Only edgeguard him if he's below the stage.


Kirby


Overall, this matchup is pretty even. We have some aspects and Kirby has some others. Mainly though, Kirby has better throws while we have a better Counter Approach game and a Proper Projectile.

The number one thing to look out for is to not get grabbed! Getting Grabbed by Kirby leads to some pretty mean Combo's that are very hard to escape. It doesn't effect us as much due to our Armour, but it still is something to look out for. His primary moves to look out for though is his Fair and Bair. They are very mean, and hard to counter if you are in the air as well. Aerial Hammers are another thing to look for, as they hurt alot! When you are at a High Percent, the things you need to look out for is his Bair, Aerial Hammers, and his Smashes. His Fsmash kills at stupidly low percents.

Cutter is also pretty annoying to deal with, but it's pretty easy to get around. You also want to be careful underneath him, as Stone can completely catch you off guard if you aren't careful. You can easily punish it though if it doesn't connect. Finally, his Inhale isn't really that bothersome as we can Grab him right out of it exactly like Dedede's! If you can manage to dodge his key moves often, then this match should be pretty easy, though there really isn't alot of room for error if you are careless...

Pit


Pit is another character that is annoying at first, but not so hard once you learn the matchup. Pit is kinda like Falco with the Arrows in the sense that he can spam them just as fast and can control the Arrow! However, unlike the Lasers, Bair can actually help get you through the spam. He's got a bunch of really annoying ground attacks such as his Jab, Fsmash, and his Side B. Fsmash is probably our greatest enemy due to how much range it has and how fast it comes out. Spotdodges or even Good Shielding can counter it. Our Eggs should be used with care due to how quickly he can put up his reflectors, especially an Arrow Shield Arrow Shield combo.

His aerials are also pretty annoying. Nair and Uair come out quick and they just come out quick. Fair, Bair, and Dair are pretty slow, but can still hit you with ease if you aren't careful. Learning how to dodge his Bair is very important, as it's his Primary kill move. Learning how to dodge it should keep you alive for significantly longer. His Recovery can be somewhat troublesome to intercept at times, but Dair is a great Anti UpB if he is ever put into such a position. Gliding can be stopped with an well aimed Egg, but be very careful of the Glide Attack.

Wolf


GAH!!! I hate Wolf so much! It's not the fact that he's hard (Well... actually he is pretty hard...) but because his moves are so annoying. Laser is annoying as hell, as I can seem to never find a way to get around it. His Bair is very annoying to deal with, and his Fsmash is very annoying! Lucky though, Laser can be counterspammed, Bair can be beaten out, and Fsmash is easily countered by a Pivot Grab. Other than the occasional Jab, Dsmash, Fair, and Reflector, These are pretty much the only things you have to deal with.

Lucky, he's very wide and very vulnerable to grabbing and Dair. We also have a Zero Death if we Grab Release him off the ledge, but we can't Chaingrab him. We can also pretty easily intercepted by Dair (Which as an added benefit, protects you from Side B!). This Matchup can get very frustrating, but very winnable if you stay calm and remain in control.


Zero Suit Samus


Zero Suit Samus (Or ZSS) Is much harder to contend with than her Suited Counterpart. First thing you going to have to deal with his her Armour Parts, which do tons of damage, and can even kill you very quickly if you aren't careful. Move as soon as the match starts. Odds are that immediately there's going to be a part heading to your face! If you can get your hands on one, then it should help alot. Nair works very well to Snag Thrown Parts.

ZSS is a Very Quick fighter, so like Fox or Sheik, you are going to have to keep up with her, or else you are going to have troubles with her. Her Jab is unmatched, and her tilts and Aerials are very quick as well. They also have a quite a bit of range on them. You need to learn how to avoid her Stuns (Dsmash and Charged Shots). Getting hit by either can lead into heavily punishing combos! Learning how to avoid the Dsmash and the Shots are very important in this matchup. Another thing is her Side B, which can be very annoying and painful. It comes out slow, so it can be easy to avoid at most times, but it can still easily catch you off guard.

Pivot Grabs can help in this matchup. You can CG Her, but he can DownB out of it. However I see this as an Double Edge Tactic as you can easily Regrab her out of it, or even follow it up with a Smash! Her Recovery isn't that bad, but it can still be easily intercepted. Dair works wonders here, But sometimes she can just be plainly edgehoged in some positions.

Ike


Ike might not look like it, but he can actually put up a rather nasty fight. He's got obvious long range, but his speed holds him back. One thing he has over us is that Our Pivot Grab is near useless in this fight, no joke! You are going to have to go offencive with your grabs, which thankfully shouldn't be that hard to do. His Jab is very annoying, and can be troublesome to get around. You shouldn't get hit much if you are careful, but he can kill you easily with every hit! He's also nearly impossible to gimp, so he should live surprisingly long. It's pretty straightforward fight, just don't get hit, and be careful!

Sheik


Sheik is speedy, no surprises there. He has some pretty mean and quick tilts and aerials, the usual stuff, except Ftilt can Lock. Just like the other speedies, you need to stay with them, or you'll be overruned. Needles can be very annoying, Sheik can Chainlock us, and vanish can be very surprising effective as an attack. He's quick, but thats pretty much it, you should be able to match her on even ground. He's also pretty easy to edgehog, and will have troubles Killing Yoshi often.

Yes, I think Sheik is a guy, so cut me some slack!

Lucas


Lucas is a tricky one if you don't know what he is capable of doing. The 3 Main moves you need to look out for is his Nair, Dair, and PK Fire. SH Nair is probably the easiest to deal with, as it is simply stopped by a Pivot Grab. Usmash, Uair, Bair, and even your tilts can get the job done too. Dair is alot more tricker to deal with, as you don't have much options to deal with it. A well aimed Egg or a Timed Usmash is your best bet, though a Retreating Pivot Grab on the landing can work too if he follows it through. PK Fire is just simply one you need to Spotdodge/Shield it. There really isn't much you can do to counter it directly, just close in the distance.

His Fsmash, Tilts, and Jab is also something to look out for. His Fsmash to note is his only reliable kill move. He can also easily reflect eggs with it, so be careful.

The best way to gather up damage quickly is to grab him when possible. We have several Combo's and CG's on release that we can do with him, and it also gives us a setup for a Kill. Dair works very well for interception if you can put him in a position to counter Zap Jumping (Ie. Grab Release off the ledge). He also has troubles dealing with Yoshi's approaches, as both of his tilts are quite stiff.


Mario


Mario is really not that hard, and I don't see why so many people have so much trouble against him. Fireball spam can be easily countered with Bair, His regular attacks and aerials aren't that special (Except Utilt, but we can escape it, and Bair can be pretty mean), and are either beaten out or matched by our Attacks/Aerials. The cape is a rather annoying counter approach and anti spam though. His edgeguarding game is completely overrated, you should be rarely by Mario if you stick to basic recovery tactics, even if he does have a giant Yellow Cape. We can however gimp him just fine with Dair.

Squirtle


Squirtle in a sense is kinda like a smaller Sheik with Nasty Throws and more annoying attacks. We beat him directly all over, but his Air's can catch you off guard, and Hydroplaning can be a major Pain. However he suffers from the "If we Grab him, he dies" Virus. In a direct fight starting from fresh 0%, Squirtle will rarely win. However he can still be scary after your hardened battle against Charizard.....


Ivysaur


Ivysaur is actually rather annoying and is probably the hardest of the 3. Razor Leaf is a very annoying projectile to get in through, Bair is almost impossible to get in, and his Ftilt is pretty mean. Her OoS Bullet Seed can be very dangerous, and will make you think twice when approaching. However, Thats all she basically has in this matchup, except maybe an Nair here, and a risky Grab, Smash, and her other Aerials. If you can get around those four key moves, this shouldn't be a hassle. Oh, and she's very easy to intercept

Samus


Samus shouldn't really provide much problems for Yoshi. Her Aerial and Ground game is completely beaten out by Yoshi's Moveset, and her Projectiles should be no problem. You can swat cleanly past them with Bair most of the time. Overall, what you mostly have to look out for is her Zair, which you can actually Crawl under, and her OoS Screw Attack. Bair to Spotdodge work very well at avoiding it, and Dair shouldn't allow her to do such a thing, and will destroy her shield in the process. Swatting Projectiles is very important in this matchup, so you should learn how to do so.

Sonic


Sonic is very fast, this is a fact (Duh!). Most of Sonic's games pretty much rely on his Spin Dashes. They're quite tricky to deal with actually, as he can cancel them, and Side B has invincibility at the start. Pivot Grabs can work if you are quick enough, but Bair might be the best way to deal with them here. If you can deal with Sonic's Dash game often, it shuts down an important part of his gameplay style. It can also be a game of patience. His Spring is also pretty tricky.

Another important part is learning how to deal with his Kill Moves, which consists of Bair, Dsmash, Fsmash, and Spring Chased Uair's. They all have quite a bit of startup time, so if you can see it coming, it shouldn't be that difficult to avoid. Though beware that he can Bair combo out of Spin Dash. Because of his extreme speed, Sonic will live for quite awhile due to it being difficult to land your effective kill moves on him, but the same can be said to Sonic. This is a match where patience is required.

[Chaco]

Sexy...chart...*gasms*

[yoshididdy]

I like how it goes from low numbers to high numbers as you go farther down the tier list. No wonder people think Yoshi sucks in brawl. He should be higher though, since he has a workable matchup against the two best characters in brawl. And he can "counter" other low tiers.

[psike]

Just curious, why does Yoshi have such a greater advantage against Lucas, but not Ness? Is it Ness's Fair and Nair? Also, nice chart ; )

[jehonaker]

Excellent chart. Great job, Mmac.

I can honestly say that most of the match-ups look good. I need to think about which ones merit attention, though...none come to mind at the present.

[Mmac]

Originally Posted by psike

Just curious, why does Yoshi have such a greater advantage against Lucas, but not Ness? Is it Ness's Fair and Nair? Also, nice chart ; )

It's mainly because Ness has a much superior Airgame compared to Lucas, that actually beats out Yoshi's Airgame. He does do good on the ground though, but his ground game is stiff and hard to counter his airs. He also has many Grab Release options on him that are much easier to pull off than Ness, and are much more punishable.

Just s simple Thesis, there's alot more...

Originally Posted by yoshididdy

I like how it goes from low numbers to high numbers as you go farther down the tier list. No wonder people think Yoshi sucks in brawl. He should be higher though, since he has a workable matchup against the two best characters in brawl. And he can "counter" other low tiers.

I don't see why people would see why he sucks from this chart though. Who doesn't have a pattern like that where Top Tiers are Low and Low Tiers are High? Plue I think most of the lower tier characters would beg for a Matchup chart like this. Only 3 Major's and 4 Soft Countered Matchups (Where 2 of the Soft Counters are questionable) shows that he really doesn't have much in weaknesses... then again, he doesn't really have any strengths either..... yet.

[MrEh]

That chart...it's too sexy. O_O

From the looks of this chart, Yoshi doesn't have any major problems dealing with the cast on whole. Sure, he has some bad matchups, but who doesn't? Yoshi at least has a solid amount of neutral and advantageous matchups. I wish I could say the same for some other characters, like Bowser.

[Shiri]

Very nice chart.

As for Lucas and Ness, I think it's Ness' overall focus on power more than Lucas' focus on speed that gives him the advantage. Ness' forward air is very hard to stop, his grab game at high percents can get very aggressive and be quite frightening, and he has one thing that Lucas doesn't--actual gimping power in the matchup.

[Poltergust]

A few things that I'm unsure about:

-Link: I really haven't played anyone good with Link, but does his range truly make him that hard to fight? If that was the case, wouldn't he have better match-ups overall? He's ridiculously easy to gimp, too.

-Zelda: I didn't exactly understand why Zelda moved from 4 to 4.5. Why is that?

-Marth and Lucario: Honestly, I don't think that they are a bad as everyone is making them out to be, at least in my experience. Can someone go into detail about them?

-Pikachu: I'm unsure myself, but I believe this to be a neutral match-up. Getting past Thunder Jolt isn't too hard, and Yoshi does better against him when they are close to each other.

-R.O.B.: I'm willing to move R.O.B. to 5, actually. I just don't see why he's a problem for Yoshi. I rarely have a tough time with them...

-Mr. Game & Watch: No problems here, but I'd like to take the time to say that Mr. Game & Watch can burn. >_>

[Mmac]

Originally Posted by Poltergust

A few things that I'm unsure about:

-Link: I really haven't played anyone good with Link, but does his range truly make him that hard to fight? If that was the case, wouldn't he have better match-ups overall? He's ridiculously easy to gimp, too.

My basis of putting in Link though where he is is that he's harder than Toon Link, due to his superior Zair, Range, and Long Range Projectiles. However I'm still wrapping my head about if our Chaingrab and his crappy recovery is enough is enough to push it into our favour...

-Zelda: I didn't exactly understand why Zelda moved from 4 to 4.5. Why is that?

To be honest, I have no idea what to put her or what I think of her.... Everyone is telling me she's hard, everyone else is telling me that she isn't that hard (And even some Zelda's think so). I just have no Idea

-Marth and Lucario: Honestly, I don't think that they are a bad as everyone is making them out to be, at least in my experience. Can someone go into detail about them?

Some of us thought the same thing with Marth, and when their matchup chart came to our turn, we tried to convince them.... and failed badly. Apparently majority of the Marth's suck, or don't know how to use him at all, and they had nothing but good arguements to counter us.

Hell, we had to work our *** off just to convince them it was 3.5!

For Lucario, he's pretty much the same Boat as Zelda, but worse. I rather just wait for them to discuss us, because we are heavily divided.

-Pikachu: I'm unsure myself, but I believe this to be a neutral match-up. Getting past Thunder Jolt isn't too hard, and Yoshi does better against him when they are close to each other.

Pikachu might be dead neutral perhaps. My experience is limited, but it seems like even the QAC ones doesn't give me much trouble. Dsmash is annoying as hell though

-R.O.B.: I'm willing to move R.O.B. to 5, actually. I just don't see why he's a problem for Yoshi. I rarely have a tough time with them...

Maybe, some people have told me it was neutral, but I usually have trouble and struggle against him. Then again I can't dodge his lasers if my life depended on it! We'll probably get a better discussion on his ratio once we discuss him.

-Mr. Game & Watch: No problems here, but I'd like to take the time to say that Mr. Game & Watch can burn. >_>

How I hate him! If his Turtle wasn't so **** powerful, Game & Watch would be so freaken easy to deal with!

If we can find an Anti-Turtle, prehaps this matchup won't be as bad.

Too bad we can't Chaingrab it to Spike it like the other one

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by Mmac

Pikachu might be dead neutral perhaps. My experience is limited, but it seems like even the QAC ones doesn't give me much trouble. Dsmash is annoying as hell though

Lately I've been finding that I do rather well against pikapunk. Other than QAC, there isn't really a reliable approach that Yoshi can't punish. *prepares to be bashed for saying that*

Originally Posted by Mmac

Maybe, some people have told me it was neutral, but I usually have trouble and struggle against him. Then again I can't dodge his lasers if my life depended on it! We'll probably get a better discussion on his ratio once we discuss him.

The key is getting inside to close range, and reading his spot dodges and d-smashes. Once you get inside and get a few hits on him, you can effectively control the pace of the match.

edit: Also, your eggs come out faster than his gyro, and close to even with the laser, which he can only use once every five seconds. If you get him off balance, you can make him approach. XD

[CluelessBTD]

It would also be a great idea if you provided links in the first post to where discussion of each character begins.

[burntsocks]

Change lucario!!!!

<3 chart

[Kiwikomix]

Looks like I've been replaced. It's been real, peeps.