I'm...working on something. Video's included.

Irsic · Oct 27, 2008

This...obviously so far does not work on everyone. I have not tested every character, but it does occur, it is not always escapable, but it is escapable, but it will catch your opponents off-guard and you will probably get a kill if you pull it off.

I've been working on a simple grab-release tech to dtilt, fsmash. So far opponents that it can work on - Zelda, Peach, Charizard.

Does not work on Ness or Rob. Rob doesn't trip, and Ness gets too far away. If the Ness player improperly DIes though it becomes a possibility.

Here's a couple videos of my netting it on Peach twice and Charizard once. This player isn't bad, but he isn't absolutely amazing.

vs. Peach on SV - Happens at 3:16. Yes I know I could have just killed her by throwing her. I didn't want to do that. >_>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUb3IPt6iZg

vs. Peach on Yoshi's Island - Happens at 4:04. It does an assload of damage too, I just noticed as I'm editing this in. I'm pretty sure she went from 84% to 136% as she died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKotebqjBBQ

vs. PT (Didn't work on Squirtle) on FD - 1:08 on Charizard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIScC9VmJKw

Go ahead and debunk this or whatever, but feel free to tinker with it. I haven't ever seen another Lucas player use it, I've never heard it talked about, but I really recommend trying it.

...P.S. Don't try it if your opponent is below like 60%. @_@

Edit: Oh, my opponent also gave imput saying that with Peach and Charizard, he didn't even stand a chance.

This list is a confirmed component to who it can possibly work on. Characters added have been tested, and of course as always, DI may always have an effect on how this GR works out.

List is under development still, and changes are definitely still going to happen. This is still quite a rough draft of a list.

Great - Almost always trips in one or two dtilts
Good - Lands well in your range and generally trips
Medium - These characters land in range of your dtilt
Trouble - These characters don't always seem to land in your dtilt range, and even when they do they escape fast enough
Never - These characters land completely out of dtilt range

Marth
Snake
Charizard
Ivysaur
Mario
Peach
Pikachu
Samus
Bowser
Falco
Fox
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar
Shiek
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Ike
King Dedede
Lucas
Luigi
Ness
Pit
R.O.B.
Sonic
Yoshi

spudzalot · Oct 27, 2008

This looks really interesting. I constantly do the dtilt into forward smash but its nice to know that it can start with a grab release. Especially since Lucas does lots of damage with his grab hits. Nice find.

Also I call the dtilt thing Tornado Lucas!

Marceux · Oct 27, 2008

It'd be nice if you included the times in the links to the videos.

I liked what I saw and maybe, just maybe this may get good, considering his down-tilt comes out ridiculously quick.

Irsic · Oct 27, 2008

3 Frames I believe. I'll go back and add the times for everyone, since it IS the focus of this topic.

DemonicTrilogy · Oct 27, 2008

Isn't tripping with this d-tilt hard to do? (Have to hit at very tip of hitbox)

Irsic · Oct 27, 2008

Yeah but grab release doesn't put them right next to you, the hits come out quickly so the chances aren't that low. Like I said, it isn't foolproof.

DemonicTrilogy · Oct 27, 2008

Irsic said:
Yeah but grab release doesn't put them right next to you, the hits come out quickly so the chances aren't that low. Like I said, it isn't foolproof.

So, how do you make sure that you can give out the continuous D-tilts and not accidentally hit them again when they trip???

Irsic · Oct 27, 2008

By knowing the character. I can't really give more info than that, but it's up to your skill. You have to know the timing, you have to know the placement for where dtilt starts to trip, and react fast. It's not that difficult to land once you get them to trip. The real problem is in lying how many hits before they trip, are they in range of your trip, and does your trip come out faster than your opponent recovers from grab release lag.

DI makes a difference as well, but those are facts that I still know nothing about. This is still something I'm investigating myself.

Unfortunately this is incredibly difficult to practice on CPU's because they just powershield half of your dtilts.

We all know actual people won't get that.

Edit: Screwing around, it's really easy to consistently do on a level 9 Snake. I know, level 9cpulols. @_@

Marceux · Oct 28, 2008

After seeing the second match against the peach, I'm leaning towards the, "this may only work against n00bs" side of the argument, I dun know. She moved further away, and it could be DI or the stage. She also had the opportunity to jump / shield / whatever. Down Tilt, although coming out on frame three, has practically no hit-stun, so unless you trip on first hit, I wouldn't put myself in that sit to keep doing it. Why not grab-release, one d-tilt, hit if trip, run if not.

prOAPC · Oct 28, 2008

if you have seen my most recent videos, then you know that i like to use dtilt a lot.
dtilt can stop slow attacks, like in the first video where it stops peach's fsmash.
the think is that the opponent can shield between dtilts, so sometimes the fsmash won't always work, but you can always grab again or sh nair to eat his shield
i'll definitely try this the next time i play

Irsic · Oct 28, 2008

Marceux said:
After seeing the second match against the peach, I'm leaning towards the, "this may only work against n00bs" side of the argument, I dun know. She moved further away, and it could be DI or the stage. She also had the opportunity to jump / shield / whatever. Down Tilt, although coming out on frame three, has practically no hit-stun, so unless you trip on first hit, I wouldn't put myself in that sit to keep doing it. Why not grab-release, one d-tilt, hit if trip, run if not.

Yeah, it seems to be based on improper DI and reaction to the grab release. Unless immediately trying to flee you can lock them in, if you get a trip on the first hit, it's golden.

I did get it to work several times on a really good Zelda player.

prOAPC · Oct 28, 2008

this thing is awesome :D
it was the very first time i tried it and it worked :D
it was vs Metaknight :D (a good one)
and i only needed one dtilt to trip him :D
then i test it vs a Ness and a Lucas, but didn't work D:
the problem is to grab D:
now, at low % i can dthrow+utitl, at mid % grab release+dtilt+fsmash and at high % dthrow :D

soccerdude7200 · Oct 28, 2008

This looks great
I'm gonna try it out.

Gates · Oct 28, 2008

This is really cool. You should put up a list of everyone you've tested on for reference.

Right now you only have 3 characters that are relatively unrelated in their properties (weight, fall speed, I guess overall size is a factor but then why isn't ROB affected) so it's hard to predict what characters this can generally work on.

prOAPC · Oct 28, 2008

so far...
works on: MK, Peach, Charizard
doesn't work: ROB, Ness, Lucas

Tyr_03 · Oct 28, 2008

Risky since it'll always depend on which way your opponent DIs the grab release or if they are able to shield between Dtilts. But I'd say it's most likely pretty dependable on players who haven't experienced it before. It'd be good to get a secure list of characters it does and doesn't work on and maybe test with DI in either direction too just to see how escapable it is.

soccerdude7200 · Oct 28, 2008

nice
ill try to test it out for myself on a few other characters

prOAPC · Oct 28, 2008

i don't know how was my friend DIing with MK, but i just needed only one dtilt to make him trip, then, i used a ftilt, missed the fsmash
there's a replay of that fight, i'll tell him to upload that fight before the others

Irsic · Oct 28, 2008

I recommend not trying this at all on Ike unless you want to die.

It's risky but opponents will..most likely not be expecting it.

I'll try to create a list of characters that It works well on, characters it can work on, and characters to not try it ever on.

prOAPC · Oct 29, 2008

i had a crazy thought, what if the dtilt make the opponent trip 100% of the time, then we have an infinite :O
i mean, grab, pummel, release, dtilt, trip, grab...

abit_rusty · Oct 29, 2008

Did you check if this was percentage dependant? As in higher percent = greater chance for dtilt to trip?

prOAPC · Oct 29, 2008

tyr said in his guide that the trip doesn't depend on %, it depend in how you hit with the dtilt, you have to hit with the tip of Lucas' foot

Irsic · Oct 29, 2008

Yeah I'm pretty sure this isn't damage dependent but I find it much easier executed at higher percentage, and is more likely to net you the kill rather than having your opponent catch on before it's too late. You don't want them to survive and then know what to expect. :[

I'm glad you've found some good uses for this apc, hah. I've taken a minor break from Brawl right now to get my bearings. The more and more I play like I have been the worse I get. @_@

Hopefully through further testing we can get a good list going here. Most characters will be orange until proven that you can more than consistently get your hits in.

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

I'm playing friendlies with my crew tonight so ill try and add a couple of these into my play style and come back with the characters it seemed to work on

prOAPC · Oct 29, 2008

Irsic said:
vs. PT (Didn't work on Squirtle) on FD - 1:08 on Charizard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIScC9VmJKw

i watched the video, and it work vs Squirle at least once, at 0:49

dawgbowl · Oct 29, 2008

wow, I want to give this a shot now! cool find.

EDIT:

Kind of works on ganon and samus.

I think this copy of brawl is messed up...
...Luigi shoots across the stage out of grab release >_>

FlashGamma · Oct 29, 2008

That's an interesting technique; I'll have to try it out when I get the chance.

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

dawgbowl said:
wow, I want to give this a shot now! cool find.

EDIT:

Kind of works on ganon and samus.

I think this copy of brawl is messed up...
...Luigi shoots across the stage out of grab release >_>

nope...thats just luigi =P

dawgbowl · Oct 29, 2008

ChaosTheoryX said:
nope...thats just luigi =P

Ahh ok

I can never tell since my original copy of brawl began to warp and I had to burn a fresh copy because the physics got WAYY messed up on my old disc.

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

dawgbowl said:
Ahh ok I can never tell since my original copy of brawl began to warp and I had to burn a fresh copy because the physics got WAYY messed up on my old disc.

ya luigi goes flying after being released out of a grab...its why he cant be chain grabbed

Edit: I went into group mode and tested the grab release range on all the characters tosee which ones were placed in range of dtilt. Heres a list of characters that are put in range f dtilt (remember this is WITHOUT any sort of DI)

Snake
Link
Donkey kong
Peach
Bowser
Wario
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon link
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Charizard
Ivysaur
Lucario (has a very low chance of tripping)
Jigglypuff
Marth (the first dtilt out of grab seemed to have an extremly high chance to trip him)
Mr Game & Watch

Irsic · Oct 29, 2008

Some good stuff. A lot of those people are going into the orange section until proven better than that, though Marth is going into cyan section if that statement holds water.

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

Irsic said:
Some good stuff. A lot of those people are going into the orange section until proven better than that, though Marth is going into cyan section if that statement holds water.

I usually did the grab realease 3 times per character, but i noticed that marth got tripped all 3 times so I did several more tests and of the total 10 tests i did he tripped 9 times on the first dtilt

Steeler · Oct 29, 2008

the pokemon trainer in the vid is horrible.

Natch · Oct 29, 2008

ChaosTheoryX said:
I usually did the grab realease 3 times per character, but i noticed that marth got tripped all 3 times so I did several more tests and of the total 10 tests i did he tripped 9 times on the first dtilt

HA HA!

HELL YES. Thanks man. I know the Marth matchup to a ridiculous extent, and this is just awesome.

prOAPC · Oct 29, 2008

ChaosTheoryX said:
ya luigi goes flying after being released out of a grab...its why he cant be chain grabbed

Edit: I went into group mode and tested the grab release range on all the characters tosee which ones were placed in range of dtilt. Heres a list of characters that are put in range f dtilt (remember this is WITHOUT any sort of DI)

Snake
Link
Donkey kong
Peach
Bowser
Wario
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon link
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Charizard
Ivysaur
Lucario (has a very low chance of tripping)
Jigglypuff
Marth (the first dtilt out of grab seemed to have an extremly high chance to trip him)
Mr Game & Watch

nice list

but i don't see MK there
and that thing about Marth sound nice

Irsic · Oct 29, 2008

If the Marth bit holds water, that will change the matchup numbers.

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

prOAPC said:
nice list
but i don't see MK there
and that thing about Marth sound nice

well when i tried mk he landed JUST out of range. I could be wrong, but I was going off of what i saw =P

Edit: I just did another test on marth. out of another 10 tests he tripped 9 times

Irsic · Oct 29, 2008

****ing awesome find. Marth is getting greened.

I had the same problem with Meta Knight. Moved him to the sienna section.

soccerdude7200 · Oct 29, 2008

has anyone tested it on diddy?

ChaosTheoryX · Oct 29, 2008

soccerdude7200 said:
has anyone tested it on diddy?

I tested every character...if hes not on the list i gave then he fell past the range of dtilt, and I'm pretty sure diddy does fall past that range

I'm...working on something. Video's included.

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