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FSMASH IS OP GUYS.

No MK dash attack, Ulevo?

This is really great. Thank you. I am sure this will help both MK and Marth players.

ahem**

help Mk players .

no way

This is good for me Ulevo, considering I was creating a list of this information for a specific Marth v Meta guide. Do you mind me using it?

Steel2nd said:

FSMASH IS OP GUYS.

No MK dash attack, Ulevo?

Click to expand...

Funny thing you guys should keep in mind about the FSmash for Marth is that even though it has longer range than Meta Knights DTilt, it mainly comes down to timing, even assuming perfect spacing. Both characters lean forward quite far when they use both moves, so assuming both attack at the same time, Meta Knight will win because of how fast his DTilt is. But if times properly, you can wait for the hitbox of the DTilt to fade, and throw out an FSmash to tip. Of course, Meta Knight can do the same.

Hm, I totally forgot about the Dash Attacks. I knew I'd miss something. Although that would be very difficult to test, and may be irrelevant because it's a moving hitbox. I'll see what I can do tonight.

Shaya said:

This is good for me Ulevo, considering I was creating a list of this information for a specific Marth v Meta guide. Do you mind me using it?

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Go right ahead. I don't mind. It's at the disposal of the community.

EDIT: I also forgot to add Marths FTilt in comparison to Meta Knights moves. I'm not sure if it is longer than Meta Knights FTilt, so once I find out where to place it, I'll add it to the list. Just keep that in mind if you're going to use the information until I edit it.

Ulevo, I don't see ftilt in the both category for marth?
Very nice!

feardragon64 said:

Ulevo, I don't see ftilt in the both category for marth?
Very nice!

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I already pointed that out when I quoted Shaya. I tested it, I just forgot to add it before I threw out my papers, and I don't remember the results at the moment.

I'm thinking of doing this for Snake vs Meta Knight as well.

MKs grounded sword moves have transcendental priority; meaning they will never clank with other hitboxes.

Fair enough. Sorry, just woke up so I sorta skimmed over the responses.
A few things that would probably just be optional, but eh
MK's nado
MK's down-b
Grab ranges(probably unnecessary)
Both's uair's and usmashes vs dairs
Marth's counter(range-wise)
MK's nair.

But again, those are pretty optional. You've already made the things that can break mk's nado list, and MK's dimentional cape is horrible. Grabs just seem unnecessary. Only thing I'm actually really curious about are the uairs and usmashes vs dairs.

Wow.

MK's fair and bair FAIL against Marth. I did not expect that at all.

BTW -> glide attack?

cutter said:

MKs grounded sword moves have transcendental priority; meaning they will never clank with other hitboxes.

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Hence the point of this thread. Because his attacks don't clank, excluding Glide Attack, in order to out prioritize them, you have to out reach them or out speed them. In this case, we're relying on reach.

feardragon64 said:

Fair enough. Sorry, just woke up so I sorta skimmed over the responses.
A few things that would probably just be optional, but eh
MK's nado
MK's down-b
Grab ranges(probably unnecessary)
Both's uair's and usmashes vs dairs
Marth's counter(range-wise)
MK's nair.

But again, those are pretty optional. You've already made the things that can break mk's nado list, and MK's dimentional cape is horrible. Grabs just seem unnecessary. Only thing I'm actually really curious about are the uairs and usmashes vs dairs.

Click to expand...

Meta Knights Tornado is a completely separate issue. Overriding it all comes down to specific moves in Marths arsenal, it isn't just about reach. I've covered that in another thread of mine in the Tactical Discussion forum if you're interested.

Down Special is kinda of pointless... It is rarely used, and because of the function of the move, out reaching it isn't really a circumstance that comes into question. I don't think it is possible to "out reach" it. It all comes down to timing attacks. It's range isn't that impressive anyway.

Grab Ranges aren't important since all attacks on either end out reach each others grab range. If one of them had a tether, or something like Dededes Grab range, it would be different.

Uairs and USmashes I covered here, although you made me notice that I didn't post anything for Marths upward attacks vs Meta Knights Dair. I'll add that tonight as well when I fix the other things I missed.

Counter would be good to cover. I am unsure if there is any moves Meta Knight could use to out space the hitbox, so that would be good knowledge to have. I'll test.

Meta Knights Nair has very poor range. It's obviously on the bottom of the list.

bludhoundz said:

Wow.

MK's fair and bair FAIL against Marth. I did not expect that at all.

BTW -> glide attack?

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Pfft. Glide Attack > Everything anyone has. It's range is ludicrous. It is the epitome of non-transcended priority. It does however clank with attacks, thankfully. The best remedy against this move is to DSOOS, or Jab and DSmash/Whatever.

But yeah, overall, Meta Knights Fair and Bair aren't very impressive moves. His Uair and Dair despite their range are much better moves in comparison.

So Marth completely outranges MK vertically?

I mean his only downward move has equal distance to MK's most ranged upward one.

And his 2nd most ranged upward move outranges MK's only downward move (meaning that Usmash has to, also).

bludhoundz said:

So Marth completely outranges MK vertically?

I mean his only downward move has equal distance to MK's most ranged upward one.

And his 2nd most ranged upward move outranges MK's only downward move (meaning that Usmash has to, also).

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That's correct. Marth has the upper hand always when he's below Meta Knight. UThrow anyone?

Does Meta's Fair outrange Marth's F-tilt? Can't test this right now......

Really nice. Great job.

Nice, good job on this

Ulevo, what about DB and Shieldbreaker? You did grounded DS you I can guess it's not because you aren't doing specials, but why not those?

SwordmasterXXXI said:

Does Meta's Fair outrange Marth's F-tilt? Can't test this right now......

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. Marths FTilt is much longer.

S.O.L.I.D. said:

Ulevo, what about DB and Shieldbreaker? You did grounded DS you I can guess it's not because you aren't doing specials, but why not those?

Click to expand...

I did add Dancing Blade originally, but now every special is up excluding Drill Rush and Glide Attack.


Ah. Done finally.

Retroking2000 said:

ahem**

help Mk players .

no way

Click to expand...

Yeah I think that this helps marth players a lot more than MK players.

I swear my counter has been outranged by MK fsmash.

Bump.

I think it would be interesting to match up the range with the frame data. I know that MK is ridiculously fast, but Marth has some very quick moves (DB, fair, dtilt, jab).

It would probably be more helpful than it would hinder us.

MK's dtilt is faster, that's pretty much all we need to know.

mm soo can we have a "situational" priority guide for horizontal?

most mk's in a neutral position against marth will...
1) dash grab
2) dash attack -> u-smash
3) glide attack -> d-smash (m2k special)
4) dash into shield -> ground dodge (0-2 times) -> d-smash
6) d-tilt (0-x times until spaced for f-tilt) -> f-tilt
7) tornado

Worst case I'd like to know the moves I shouldn't use (as in don't even waste time trying to space them cause you're going to lose no matter what.

Ex. would be against #3, don't even bother f-air, use DSOoS

good sh*t bro.