Match-Up Week #14 : Diddy Kong

Blad01 · Nov 2, 2008

Week #14 : Diddy Kong

This monkey loves his bananas so much O_O More than DK. Seiously, he has a metagame evolving fast, has some pretty sick combos with bananas, has a good aerial comfort and mobility, can gimp us easily... How could we beat this guy ?
Discuss !

Rudra · Nov 2, 2008

From what I've seen in this matchup, the Reflector's going to play a pretty big role since it's more effective in shuting down the banana spam with the additional effect of adding spacing, (possibly) tripping him, and making the Banana yours. In the air, it's been a bit tough for me thanks to his good priority and decent mobility.

I usually just try to avoid aerial combat for the most part and try to parry him with SHDLs. When it comes to recovery, he's got it pretty bad, so a Fair or a Bair offstage would interrupt his charge up and most likely gimp him. If he decides to charge up higher in the air, I'd try to snipe him or follow his flight path. I'm not all too clear on this matchup otherwise, so good luck.

ADHD · Nov 2, 2008

60-40 falco's favor. Diddy can uair through falco's jab combo, don't use it... ever... jab to grab is alot better. The reflector helps but a good diddy won't just blindly throw it at you, he'll find better opportunities. Falco is heavy and somewhat easier to combo than most characters, which is a bonus. Chaingrab is nice, but it shouldn't kill diddy he can just charge his up b and he won't get edgehogged. Learn to deal with the bananas is the main thing, just because falco has the most annoying tool against diddy with range doesn't mean the bananas won't give you a very hard time. I can't say what to watch out for, there's alot of things I do that other diddy kong's don't. just don't get naner locked to dash attack dair combo lol, instant death in most cases but it rarely should ever happen. Oh and I just killed a falco who bair'd my rocket barrels lol, I won the match.

8AngeL8 · Nov 3, 2008

I'd agree with 6/4 Falco's favor. Falco has the superior ranged game, and can slow Diddy's banana assault with the reflector. Skilled Diddy's will work around it, but it's presence will force Diddy to approach in more punishable ways, such as from above.

Falco should do what he can to get a hold of bananas and turn them on Diddy, since throwing a naner into gatling combo is amazing.

Ftilt and Utilt can space Diddy well to keep you from getting caught in his unholy combos.

His recovery is predictable, and can be punished with bair. You can also edgeguard it easier than many Up-B's. A CG to spike followed by edgeguarding bairs and ledgehogging can take a Diddy player out right away, but it's gonna be ridiculously hard to get a grab in with all those bananas and Diddy's brutal close game. Don't try to force the grab, but take it if you get it.

Against Diddy's gimping game, you need to be EXTRA unpredictable with your recovery. If you just use Side-B every time, you'll get owned hard. You want to Side-B to different places every time, mix in some cancels, even throw in Up-B sometimes to throw them off.

Overall, Falco has the tools to space Diddy, and will have the advantage if he can keep Diddy and arm's length and can manage bananas well.

A2ZOMG · Nov 3, 2008

ChromePirate said:
Falco is heavy and somewhat easier to combo than most characters, which is a bonus.

LOLOLOLOLOL.

I mean seriously.

Falco is lighter than Olimar.

The reason he's probably easy to combo is because of his fall speed combined with his low weight meaning he retains fairly high hitstun, but doesn't go too high when you hit him.

But anyhow, this is how light he is. I mean I kill him with Mario or Ganon's B-throw at like 120% or something crazy like that.

TechnoMonster · Nov 3, 2008

Falco is possibly Diddy's worst matchup, at least in terms of limiting his options.

Crazy Hobo · Nov 3, 2008

A lot of characters have trouble with Diddy's bananas. But Falco and others can pick up bananas with dash attack, which helps alot. If Diddy is far away, I usually pick up his bananas to use against him. Also laser spam and use back air.

Blad01 · Nov 9, 2008

I think this match-up is about 50:50 or 55:45.

Diddy's Advantages

Falco's SHDL get owned by bananas. Falco can't really jump when he wants, because if he does, ddk can throw a banana just under him.
Falco's Reflector is pretty punishable. It reflects bananas in front of him, but the second half of the move is punishable. And ddk can easily mindgame falco.
Falco get gimped easily, as usual.
Falco is not hard to kill...

Falco's Advantages

Chaingrab
SHL is annoying, and SHDL at very long-distance too.
Reflector stop glide-toss approaches.
Falco can also gimp DDK, but less easily.
DDK is pretty easy to kill

In the airs, the match is pretty eaven...

DUB · Nov 9, 2008

There is no way this is 50-50 55-45. This is by far Diddy's hardest matchup. Some people will go as far as saying that it is 70-30 in Falco's favor.

Falco's Advantages
-Can chaingrab Diddy to about 40%
-Lasers cripple Diddy's fast ground game
-Reflector makes Diddy's more hesitant to throw bananas, and it also reflects them >.>
-Can kill Diddy early due to his light weight
-If a laser connects with the rocketbarrel while recovering Diddy is probably dead

Diddy's Advantages
-Can gimp Falco's short recovery with naners, popguns
-Falco's side B leaves him open if he does not grab the edge

Basically Diddy has to get Falco off the stage before it turns into an advantageous matchup for him. But doing this means you have to deal with all the other great anti-Diddy tools he has.

I say its 65-35 Falco.

Blistering Speed · Nov 9, 2008

I think you're being abit pro Falco. I've never heard a Diddy main call Falco there worst matchup.

60-40

Also, don't forget about Falco's **** glide toss.

Blad01 · Nov 9, 2008

Well, a lot of DDK mains seem to think that Reflector and "lasers" are what destroy Diddy. Well, they don't know that SHDL is highly punishable by a banana throw, that Reflector is highly punishable by a very simple mindgame (you have a banana, you approach falco. If he throws his reflector, shield, jump, side B... This puts Falco in a disadvantage position).

About "lasers", i can only see a retreating SHL to be annoying for DDK. But here also, if you throw a banana under Falco while he's jumping, you have the advantage.

I played a good DDK here, who knew the Falco's match-up very well (he plays the other good falco in paris very often), and i get 2-stocked.

Falco can also pick up bananas, and this is very annoying for a DDK (i comboed this ddk main with bananas lol XD). But this is true with every character, not only Falco. And good diddy mains will be careful to not throw bananas mindlessly.

So 50:50 or 55:45. But there is no way this match-up to be 65:35 imo.

DUB · Nov 9, 2008

Blistering Speed said:
I think you're being abit pro Falco. I've never heard a Diddy main call Falco there worst matchup.

.........lol.

Count · Nov 9, 2008

Falco is indeed Diddy's worst matchup-Diddy does not really have any HORRIBLE matchups. It is at least 60-40 falco. Falco probably combos better, is tough to approach, and kills much easier than diddy. The peanut gun is our friend in this matchup, but I don't think you guys understand how hard falco is on diddy.

Vyse · Nov 9, 2008

Le_THieN said:
Week #2
Falco

Match-Up Estimate - 4 : 6
[This match-up is slightly in Falco's favor]

Falco's Advantages:

superior projectile pressure

abusable chain-throw

a very big boost grab/pivot grab range

high-priority, auto-canceling aerial attacks with multi-hit properties

a large, ranged, and disjointed reflector

Diddy's Advantages:

superior ground speed

more balanced aerial movement

longer and more versatile recovery

slightly faster smashes overall

Specific Match-Up Points:

First order of business: Falco's F-smash. Please acclimate yourselves to the range and sheer hit-box size on this move ASAP. The hit-box starts from behind him as he draws his arms behind him and lunges forward as he strikes, creating a hit-box arc similar to Marth's F-smash. This makes jumping over it a tricky chore, and rolling through it is akin to pretty much inviting Falco into your village to **** your women and pillage the wheat supply. If you're out of position to counter or retaliate, run or roll away. Also, punish this move carefully, for there are IASA frames that can be canceled directly into Falco's ridiculously ranged and higher-priority-than-normal jab combo.

Falco's lasers are, as far as I know, the only projectile in the game that does not dissipate after traversing a certain distance. They can cover any known length and short-hopped or full-jumped lasers can create irritating walls that hinder and interrupt approaches. Falco's lasers are, along with Pit's Light Arrows, the only projectiles in the game that do not dissipate after traversing a certain distance.

If Diddy is grabbed at any point before roughly 40%, he can and will be chain-thrown. No amount of DI (smash-assisted or not) can stave this off as Diddy's general weight makes this inescapable. Falco's diverse grabbing options combined with short-hopped lasers really makes avoiding being grabbed quite the challenge.

The reflector has an asininely long activation time, starting immediately from the point it his kicked out all the way to when it is retracted.

Since it appears that the Rocket Barrel Blast loses priority over great distances, attempts to get back to the stage will be thwarted by Falco's B-air virtually every single time if he is in position to intercept your trajectory.

With the exception of F-air, all of Falco's aerial attacks can be short-hopped and auto-canceled.

Expect constant shield pressure from Falco's ability to DLX-cancel. Falco can bait the shield-grab with the dash attack, but then interrupt by canceling into an U-smash once you have dropped your shield.

Strategic Notes:

One of Falco's best options to interrupt Diddy's momentum is to activate the reflector. The benefits to this are twofold: Diddy's momentum is usually tied into his banana approach, and not only will they be reflector, but Diddy will take 5-6% damage each time as well as trip if he's on the ground. One good way to punish this is to bait the reflector and perfect-shield it. Once the hit-box has been shielded, you have more than enough time to attack before the move is over. Make sure you're baiting him without a banana though; even though you will no longer get hit once you're inside the range of the reflector, it can still reflect back at you, regardless of whatever direction you choose to throw.

The other, less exploited solution to the reflector is to bait the reflector with a banana and then crawling underneath it. Once you have crawled past the actual reflector and its hit-box, you have the option to D-tilt with a banana in hand or glide-toss.

Although you can't DI away from the chain-throw, you can occasionally smash-DI toward the ledge if you are about to end up off-stage and avoid Falco's D-air spike setup.

In the event that you do end up being D-air spiked, make note of Falco's positioning and the number of jumps he has left in order to evaluate your recovery options. Sometimes you can use your second jump in order to grab the ledge depending on how far you were spiked; other times you have no choice but to barrel-rocket back to the ledge. If you are forced to use the barrel rockets and you are in danger of being edge-hogged, stall by charging the barrels in order to exhaust Falco's invincibility frames on the ledge, and then recover. Your opponent will have no choice but to either get off or eat 10% damage while you still make it back to the ledge.

Falco's DLX cancel is punishable in two specific ways: you must perfect-shield the initial dash attack in order to have enough time to interrupt the approach with a shield-grab, or you must shield both attacks completely. Split-second spacing adjustments can ruin the attempt, as Falco's dash attack needs to make contact against hurt-boxes or shields immediately within the first few frames of activation so that he can quickly activate an U-smash afterward. The cool-down lag on Falco's whiffed DLX attempt can then be punished accordingly.

The Falco Phantasm is difficult to punish, but peanuts and bananas can interrupt his recovery off-stage and force him to resort to the infinitely more mediocre Firebird (which can be easily edge-hogged). Other, more difficult ways you can interrupt the Phantasm is simply by jabbing once at the edge of the stage and following up with a spike or edge-hog attempt, a Diddy Hump during the Phantasm's activation frames, or – believe it or not – a perfectly-timed F-tilt. Alternatively, the Phantasm can still be punished if he makes it back on-stage in the event that you shield it with a banana in hand so that you can follow up with a glide-toss as soon as the attack is over.

10characters

EDIT: Diddy's hardest matchups are Falco and Olimar.
Oh, and Ice Climbers too I think. I mean, there's two of them o.o

Carbonated · Nov 10, 2008

SHL and SHDL can get a banna thrown under you depending on your distance. If you are in range of his bananas you could end up getting banana locked.

Your reflector is going to help you against the DDK that start throwing their bananas pointlessly at you.

His popgun isn't the best projectile due to charge up. It usually doesn't get used much when I play against my friends.

I find that their vertical recovery is horrible, and they will usually die from a chain grab to a spike. All you have to do is run off stage and fast fall with your b air.

His smashes are relatively faster than yours, but his d smash hits that back area later and his u and d smash are weaker by a good amount. His f smash hits twice so spot dodging too early can get you kill hit.

His arials seem to be stronger and faster other than his d air which has more start up lag than yours.

I'd say it's around 60:40

§witch · Nov 10, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
LOLOLOLOLOL.

I mean seriously.

Falco is lighter than Olimar.

The reason he's probably easy to combo is because of his fall speed combined with his low weight meaning he retains fairly high hitstun, but doesn't go too high when you hit him.

But anyhow, this is how light he is. I mean I kill him with Mario or Ganon's B-throw at like 120% or something crazy like that.

Fast faller then.

JST · Nov 11, 2008

Falco is pretty good at handling bananas with his lasers, reflector, and ease of picking them up, and he can utilize the bananas himself pretty well (Monster glide toss + huge-ranged fsmash/very quick dsmash and usmash = ****). That alone gives Falco a definite advantage.

Vlade · Nov 12, 2008

Difficulty: 6:4 (In Falco's Favour)

What to expect:

What all Diddy mainers love. The bananas. These will usually be glide-tossed so that diddy slides towards you to capitalise on your trip, creating insane combos that rack up insane damage. Diddy's momentum with his bananas will determine on how successfuly he is - as falco mainers we must disrupt his momentum and continue our assault.

Aerial Versatility. Diddy Kong is very fluid in the air, with weak but combo-potential aerials such as uair and bair. His dair is a spike and is deadly if timed right against our phantasm. Fair is one of his aerial kill moves - most diddy's I've faced keep it fresh.

Gimping Potential. Not only can diddy use his dair to severely punish our phantasm, he can also interrupt it with peanuts or bananas. This will force us to resort to the firebird, which is quite easily edge-hogged for an easy stock.

Diddy is a very mobile character and is always on the move to keep momentum. He can also crawl underneath falco's reflector.

The Strategy:

As soon as the match is started and the word 'GO!' is on the screen, Diddy will pull out his infamous bananas. Falco has superior projectile pressure against Diddy, so he will have to approach. Diddy can also be chaingrabbed past 40%, so abuse that. Now of course Diddy will be sliding around glide-tossing his bananas at you. Reflector is your best friend here and can turn his bananas against him. But be careful as not to be 'baited' or 'mindgamed' into throwing out your reflector, only to be punished by a grab. Diddy's grabs set up for follow-ups really well so make sure you ahve good DI to minimise risks of further follow-ups. As I said, once diddy gets started, he's quite difficult to stop.

If you do manage to get the chaingrab, finish it off with a spike. If diddy gets sent pretty far down, edgehog his rocket recovery. Just be observant on whether or not he charges them up. Or you could just do some off-stage edgeguarding with bair.

Your best bet on killing diddy would either be usmash or bair. Create an opening for these attacks with your lasers. Fsmash is still of course a viable option, but very difficult to pull off unless you are techchasing with it. And then there's always the dair if you get the opportunity. Diddy will probably be aiming for a Dsmash, Fsmash, dair or fair kill, particularly his smashes after techchasing one of your trips after he throws a banana.

One thing I see way too often is people be techased by bananas ALONE. Seriously, mix up get-up attacks or just simply get up. You will be tripping heaps in this fight so be observant of diddy and react appropriately, but quickly. If he is shielding right beside you then roll behind him. If he's charging a smash then get-up attack. Just also be wary of where the banana is so you don't trip again.

STAGES

Counterpicks:

Jungle Japes - As usual. CG to spike is just too broken on this stage. I've managed to 3-stock a diddy in literally 30 secs here (thanks to a klaptrap for the last stock). But otherwise if grabbing isn't working (which it shouldn't if your opponent is smart) camp the hell outta him with lasers and use phantasms accordingly.

Rainbow Cruise - Falco doesn't do too badly here, but Diddy's banana game is wrecked. Just remember that Diddy still has very good aerial mobility but it is just too difficult for him to gain momentum here.

Ban These Stages!

Final Destination. I know it's one of falco's stages, but Diddy Kong is a BEAST on this stage. Bananas have full effect here and everything just flows for him.

Sorry to bump this thread, but I thought it was important to add this and keep the match-up discussion going.

wangston · Nov 12, 2008

One thing I do on Diddy is chaingrab, spike, Bair. It knocks him under the stage, at this point he has to over b then up b and by that time he is extremely low and can't really charge up his pack enough. Also depending on how close he is to the stage he can get staged spiked by the bottom of the stage.

Advent Lee · Nov 13, 2008

Blistering Speed said:
I think you're being abit pro Falco. I've never heard a Diddy main call Falco there worst matchup.

I'm gonna assume that was a joke or some kind of sarcasm...

Any ways I have been learning the match up pretty well. Gimping Falco is becoming really easy. Word of advice to you Falco mains, reflector is near useless in this match up. A smart/good Diddy main will **** you for using it. Falco's main advantage in this match up is his priority. Period.

-advent-

Blad01 · Nov 13, 2008

advent102 said:
Word of advice to you Falco mains, reflector is near useless in this match up.

Well, at least i must say

Glad to see a diddy main saying that.

Vyse · Nov 13, 2008

Also, if Diddy decides to crawl/crouch, the reflector goes over him, and he can d-tlit you without throwing the banana.

Luigi player · Nov 13, 2008

vyse said:
Also, if Diddy decides to crawl/crouch, the reflector goes over him, and he can d-tlit you without throwing the banana.

Hm Diddy can still get hit by the reflector if you crouch under it.
Maybe it's a specific spot where you can get hit, or a specific part in Diddys crouching animation, but I got hit sometimes...
It's nothing you should count on though ^^

ADHD · Nov 13, 2008

You guys (diddy ppl) whats the best way to punish the reflector lag?

Luigi player · Nov 13, 2008

ChromePirate said:
You guys (diddy ppl) whats the best way to punish the reflector lag?

If you're in front of him and you have a nana in your hand it's probably best if you crawl under it and dtilt him.

Maybe you could also jump above it and use an aerial on Falco or something. But I don't have much Falco experience so I'm not so sure.

Vyse · Nov 13, 2008

Probably glide toss up -> Grab

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