falcon kick>ledge cancel possibilities - NEW, BETTER QUALITY VID ADDED!

here's a pretty good quality vid showing what I mean (one way of using it)
vid: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq8s5P_u40
ledge cancel = canceling the ending lag of the falcon kick by ending the kick right on the edge of the stage
ledge cancel will be LC in this topic (LC not discovered by me)
I've done quite some testing and found out the following:

I'll divide this in three category's:
1 sending the opponent upward with the falcon kick (with the middle of the kick)
2 sending the opponent horizontal (away from you) using the ending part of the kick
3 sending the opponent horizontal (away from you) using the beginning part of the kick
all ways set up for different posibilities of possible real combo's but also just strings that can work

1 With sending the opponent upward
(the opponent must be launched up from the falcon kick for these to happen)
the falcon kick>ledgecancel>jump>alot of things!

all this was done on an enemy falcon at 80 to 95%:

(it happens at the end of all vids, as they start with damage building than positioning and then the 'combo'/combo, so just fast forward to the last few seconds to see what the vid was made for, the Falcon kick>LC>arial/special)

falcon kick>LC>Nair = 3 consecutive hits at around 81%
vid:
falcon kick>LC>Fair = not a real combo as far as I tested but can work too
vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CzzzhlptdU
falcon kick>LC>Bair = 2 consecutive hits
vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqdyynk_HlA
falcon kick>LC>Dair= not a real combo as far as I tested
vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxLmD965XJs
falcon kick>LC>Uair = not a real combo as far as I tested
vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MDbx2Qv5SM
falcon kick>LC>up b = not a real combo as far as I tested (maybe at lower % :D)
vid:
falcon kick>LC>side b = not a real combo as far as I tested
vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRmtLRPoo2I

Credit to Steel_Dragon for recording and uploading the vids :D

(even the ones who are not 'real' combo's do work and look cool though )

it seems FK>LC>Nair/Bair are the only ones with 2 consecutive hits
I know this doesn't guarantee that they are real combo's, but it sure is a possibility

with the positioning of both the attacker and the victim are so precise, it could be that the other airs/specials can be real combo's too, although I only got Nair and Bair to work as 2 consecutive hits until now

I'll keep testing to see if another can be done as 2 consecutive hits

vids will be added as soon as possible

2 With sending the opponent horizontal (using the ending of the kick)

thanks to worgim another use of the ledgecancel is made possible:
it works from 0 to round 40 percent on an opponent falcon:

falcon kick and hit them with the ending part of the kick making them fly horizontally then ledgecancel then Uair without jumping is 2 consecutive hits!!
so: FK>LC>Uair immediatly = two consecutive hits

I tested nair this way too, and nair too is 2 consecutive hits :D (the second hit from the Nair doesn't connect :/)
so: FK>LC>Nair immediatly = 2 consecutive hits

I tested knee this way too, this one is 2 consecutive hits at around 21 % :D
so: FK>LC>Fair immediatly = 2 consecutive hits (but it's really hard to pull off for some reason >.< but I got it to work somehow :D)

raptor boost after the ledcancel this way works wonders, but only if the opponent second jumps immediatly :/ so it is kinda risky, maybe at higher percents though
so: FK>LC>side b immediatly = not a real combo and risky

using this way Bair, Dair and up b don't connect on lower percents unfortunatly. only if you jump but this makes it take too long for it to be two consecutive hits, maybe at higher percents up b can work, but I doubt the hitstun is enough for it to be a real combo

3 with sending the opponent horizontal (using the beginning of the kick)

this is wogrim's idea, so credit to him

the very first hitbox of the kick sends the opponent backwards, this is not the hit you are looking for with these 'combo's'/combo's
I mean the hit just after the 'backwards hit' of the kick, wich sends the opponent horizontal

So far I've found that if you send an opponent falcon flying with the beginning of the kick (around 38%) and then LC you get a free footstool :D
so:FK>hit with beginning of the kick sending them horizontally off the stage>LC>jump when above opponent = footstool

using this way, FK>LC>Uair immediatly is also 2 consecutive hits :D (At around 40%)

FK>LC>Nair is also 2 consecutive hits this way, the second hit doesn't connect though (At around 40%)

using this third way of the LC, FK>LC>side b immediatly works really well too, but it is not 2 consecutive hits, so it is risky

FK>LC>knee immediatly also works very well this way, but I couldn't get this to work as a 2 consecutive hit combo

Conclusion: more testing has to be done and will be done, but as it stands now. the FC>sending them upward>LC>jump>arial/special is most effective at higher percents

and the FK>sending them horizontal(with the last part of the kick)>LC>arial/special immediatly is most effective at lower percents

the opponent may not get too colse to the edge at lower percents, making it mroe situational but thsi does give us more options depending on the opponents damage percentage

The third way, FK>sending them horizontal (with the beginning of the kick)>LC>arial/special is also good. this may be the most practical one of the three in a real match, but they are all situational so they can all be helpfull :D (credit to wogrim for the idea for the third way of using the LC)

it still has to be tested if these are indeed real combo's, as some beeing 2 consecutive hits does not guarantee that they are real combo's

so I hope to test this on a human opponent as soon as possible

NAir itself has 2 hits; are you sure it's a combo?

Wogrim said:

NAir itself has 2 hits; are you sure it's a combo?

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yes, cause only the first hit of the nair connects because you move backwards
it could be 3 consecutive hits I guess, but that'll be harder :/

the FK>LC>Nair isn't really helpfull as 2 consecutive hits, as the second kick has the knockback, but if we can get the second hit to connect too, it'll be quite good

but as it stands now, only the first hit connects :/
still 2 consecutive hits though

I'll be testing more tommorrow

Edit: I got the second hit of the Nair to hit too it's not as hard as I thought it would be :D
now it is a 3 consecutive hit combo/çombo', 3 hits is alot in brawl XD

Mmm now that you've got vids up, I gotta say it wasn't what I was expecting when this falcon kick ledge cancel thing first came up. I thought it was about hitting with the first hitbox of Falcon Kick, which sends them fairly horizontally. I don't know if the hitstun is long enough, but I think the arc they follow would put them right above you or maybe in front of you at certain percents, allowing for a knee or UAir without jumping or anything, and maybe a DAir spike by jumping. That's what I had in mind when the ledge-cancelled kick thing first came up, but, once again, I don't know if the hitstun is long enough for it. I also thought it put you offstage, but in your vids it's hard to tell, so obviously doing an aerial without jumping wouldn't work if it doesn't.

Wogrim I want to play you, I also live near San Jose.

Havent played a serious Falcon Main.

Hmm. very interesting indeed! I'll try some of these out 2-morrow, if all goes well, this could lead to some serious combo breakthroughs and quick kill set ups!

Wogrim said:

Mmm now that you've got vids up, I gotta say it wasn't what I was expecting when this falcon kick ledge cancel thing first came up. I thought it was about hitting with the first hitbox of Falcon Kick, which sends them fairly horizontally. I don't know if the hitstun is long enough, but I think the arc they follow would put them right above you or maybe in front of you at certain percents, allowing for a knee or UAir without jumping or anything, and maybe a DAir spike by jumping. That's what I had in mind when the ledge-cancelled kick thing first came up, but, once again, I don't know if the hitstun is long enough for it. I also thought it put you offstage, but in your vids it's hard to tell, so obviously doing an aerial without jumping wouldn't work if it doesn't.

Click to expand...

yes this could work, but I doubt the hitstun is long enough
but you brouht me to another idea:
the last part of the kick also sends them horizontally, so maybe falcon kick>ledgecancel>Uair/Knee without jumping is possible at lower percents
I'll try it later today


but the way I use also seem to work (FC>LC>jump>arial/special) so these two ways together may make it worth looking further into the ledgecancel as it is easier to perform as one might think (imo)

EDIT: IT WORKS! FROM 0 to round 15% ON AN OPPONENT FALCON:
if the opponent stands on the edge (not hanging but standing) and you falcon kick and hit them with the ending part of the kick making them fly horizontally then ledgecancel then Uair without jumping is 2 consecutive hits!!

thanks to wogrim for the idea, I'll be testing upb/sideb/far/nair/dair/bair too

Edit2: I tested nair this way too, and nair too is 2 consecutive hits :D (the second hit from the Nair doesn't connect :/)
hurray for falcon!!

Edit3: I tested knee this way too, but this one is not 2 consecutive hits :/ but it still works and looks cool though

raptor boost after the ledcancel this way works wonders, but only if the opponent second jumps immediatly :/ so it is kinda risky, maybe at higher percents though

using this way Bair, Dair and up b don't connect don't connect on lower percents unfortunatly unfortunatly. only if you jump but this makes it take to long for it to be two consecutive hits, maybe at higher percents up b can work, but I doubt the hitstun is enough for it to be a real combo

I edited the info into the first post

the way wogrim discovered may work too (hitting with one of the first hotboxes making the opponent fly horizontal too) but I'm not sure
I'll test that later

Edit: I got the second hit of the Nair to hit too, making it 3 consecutive hits :D
it's not as hard as I thought it would be

I'll just bump this for more people to see

The thing is, I'd prefer a combo from the first hitbox, since you'll almost never hit someone with the end of a Falcon Kick (usually just if they roll away) and if you have to set up for the ledge cancel on top of that it's pretty much useless.

Very nice stuff mate. I'm gonna check it out and test some stuff later today.

Wogrim said:

The thing is, I'd prefer a combo from the first hitbox, since you'll almost never hit someone with the end of a Falcon Kick (usually just if they roll away) and if you have to set up for the ledge cancel on top of that it's pretty much useless.

Click to expand...

yes I understand
but having more possibilities is always better
I'm going to test the way you sugested now
so I'll edit the first post with the info I get later today

I hope to get better quality vids from all 3 ways this weekend

and @ mizar: thanks :D

Edit: good news, wogrims way also works!
(at least it can get one 2 consecutive hit combo so far)
still testing on a human player is required to see if this is really a real combo though

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

yes I understand
but having more possibilities is always better
I'm going to test the way you sugested now
so I'll edit the first post with the info I get later today

I hope to get better quality vids from all 3 ways this weekend

and @ mizar: thanks :D

Edit: good news, wogrims way also works!
(at least it can get one 2 consecutive hit combo so far)
still testing on a human player is required to see if this is really a real combo though

Click to expand...

The cancel asks for a very precise position to work. You have to calculate where your opponent is, where you are, where he will be after he got kicked and where the falcon kick actually cancels. Its hard to do in a real battle, but it may has its use for edge guarding or something. When your opponent sees you miles away from the ledge, he'll probably recover normally without an attack. Canceling the kick is actually pretty fast and can be used to surprise the opponent and then hopefully killed with a U or B air.

I dont see it much use in it when the opponent is still on the stage since its easily punishable. But im working it out more, so maybe I'll change my mind.

Mizar said:

The cancel asks for a very precise position to work. You have to calculate where your opponent is, where you are, where he will be after he got kicked and where the falcon kick actually cancels. Its hard to do in a real battle, but it may has its use for edge guarding or something. When your opponent sees you miles away from the ledge, he'll probably recover normally without an attack. Canceling the kick is actually pretty fast and can be used to surprise the opponent and then hopefully killed with a U or B air.

I dont see it much use in it when the opponent is still on the stage since its easily punishable. But im working it out more, so maybe I'll change my mind.

Click to expand...

yes I know and you are right
but with practice everything can be perfected and after a while the ledge cancel gets easier to do imo
and also it is good for edge guarding (like you said) if they attack when they hang on the ledge (like pushing a while hanging on the ledge)
I guess it is possible to lure out an attack, quicly position yourself and as they are on the edge of the stage, you can FK>LC>Knee/Uair/Nair immediatly for some nice damage imo
this is just one of the imo many ways we can use these three different ways of using the LC

but I do agree it'll be hard and still situational, as it also depends on where the opponent stands

Mizar said:

The cancel asks for a very precise position to work. You have to calculate where your opponent is, where you are, where he will be after he got kicked and where the falcon kick actually cancels. Its hard to do in a real battle, but it may has its use for edge guarding or something. When your opponent sees you miles away from the ledge, he'll probably recover normally without an attack. Canceling the kick is actually pretty fast and can be used to surprise the opponent and then hopefully killed with a U or B air.

I dont see it much use in it when the opponent is still on the stage since its easily punishable. But im working it out more, so maybe I'll change my mind.

Click to expand...

If you memorize the position on the common stages, you might be able to 'camp' it against certain characters and wait for a good opportunity.

Wogrim said:

If you memorize the position on the common stages, you might be able to 'camp' it against certain characters and wait for a good opportunity.

Click to expand...

yes exactly :D
and if we develop certain mindgames (like luring out rolls towards the edge of the stage for example) we might be able to actually start using this in real battles as there are three ways to use the LC, so it can work in more than one situation :D

thanks for all your input and critique guys

You need a better camera @_@ I can't really tell how this is working.

Mit said:

You need a better camera @_@ I can't really tell how this is working.

Click to expand...

I know, this weekend I hope to get some more vids up, and with better quality

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

I'll just bump this for more people to see

Click to expand...

^
this..

triple post ftl, sorry
but I couldn't get vids this weekend :/
I will get them asap

PS: one CAN see what i mean with this from the vids, and for the methods without vids, it is (imo) explained clear enough to get a visual
again, sorry, but I'm working on it

It's an interesting concept, one I'm toying with atm, but it seems in order to get the LC, your opponent's positioning matters as well as your own. I could be wrong, but it seems where you hit your opponent with the Falcon Kick alters the distance you travel. I'll go into further testing and get back to you on it, though.

Edit : After some testing, I believe I have confirmed that the opponent's position determines where Captain Falcon needs to be in order to obtain a LC with Falcon Kick (assuming you want to hit the opponent.) Again, I will test this more, but as of now it seems valid, thus making these LC comboes EXTREMELY situational because your opponent has to be at a certain point of the map as well.

LinIsKorean said:

It's an interesting concept, one I'm toying with atm, but it seems in order to get the LC, your opponent's positioning matters as well as your own. I could be wrong, but it seems where you hit your opponent with the Falcon Kick alters the distance you travel. I'll go into further testing and get back to you on it, though.

Edit : After some testing, I believe I have confirmed that the opponent's position determines where Captain Falcon needs to be in order to obtain a LC with Falcon Kick (assuming you want to hit the opponent.) Again, I will test this more, but as of now it seems valid, thus making these LC comboes EXTREMELY situational because your opponent has to be at a certain point of the map as well.

Click to expand...

I already know and posted this
but thanks for working on it with me:D
please keep testing it, like on human opponents and such

Oh, I guess I missed it, my bad!

But yes, I will continue to test this, but at best I can only see this being extremely situational. I mean, lets be realistic, most people will just spot-dodge or shield the Falcon Kick from the start. Nonetheless, lets see what we can find.

Great thread, this is so epic if you actually manage to pull it off. I want to see this with lc-->up+B. YES!

DUDE!

I love you, I actually tried this and it worked at the tournament on a MK

Falcon kick to knee FTW

this idea seems decent but I couldn't see it getting much use. You might be able to pull it off once in a match before your opponent starts watching for it.

-@LinIsKorean: it's ok :D and yeah it is situational, but as said before, one can 'camp' for this top happen (like position yourself properly and edgeguard with it when they land back on the stage) one can also lure out a ledge attack and quickly position yourself and punish with falcon kick>LC>knee :D

-Thanks marTh- and ayaz :D

-and @ Orfn: yes even if they catch on to it it can be helpfull, think about it:
the opponent will watch out for falcon kicks near the ledge. this makes other moves less predictable, or at least they have to watch out for more now :D if the falcon kick>LC>Knee immediatly connects (sweetspotted) they get some serious percents :D so they (think) they know that when you position yourself you will use falcon kick, so this contributes to falcon's mindgame game (wich is really important for falcon)

shame this is so situational :[

but options are always good.

yeah it is a shame it is so situational, but its still usable imo

anyway, I may have found a little new way of using the LC
like this: ( when the opponent stands on the edge of the stage and you hit them with the ending part of the kick, sending them horizontally away from you)
FK>LC>(this puts you offstage)FF>up b
or:
FK>LC>(this puts you offstage)FF>second jump>arial/special

at higher percents, the opponents hitstun may be enough for this to work, but it's not very likely..

I'll be testing this more soon

I also hope to get some vids up soon

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq8s5P_u40
heres another video, hope its clearer than the one you'v got.

i didn't bother to look at the other videos since it was bad quality, however that first video gave me some clues on my research for zapping the knee (sweetspot if you may recall). Also, thank you TKONTK for uploading that. The Falcon kick LC to Knee was very epic in my opinion, it looks like The knee will zap everytime ( I haven't tried this yet though).

Man, TKONTK, can I steal everything you've done for Captain Falcon? If I find my own stuff, I'd be happy to share, but for now I'm leeching...

Mr.Fakeman said:

i didn't bother to look at the other videos since it was bad quality, however that first video gave me some clues on my research for zapping the knee (sweetspot if you may recall). Also, thank you TKONTK for uploading that. The Falcon kick LC to Knee was very epic in my opinion, it looks like The knee will zap everytime ( I haven't tried this yet though).

Click to expand...

ok man glad I helped
and yeah, at the right percents, the knee will 'zap' :D
The positioning for both you and your opponent are really precise though

eRonin said:

Man, TKONTK, can I steal everything you've done for Captain Falcon? If I find my own stuff, I'd be happy to share, but for now I'm leeching...

Click to expand...

lol sure XD
I hope I can help you become one of the best
implement everything in your falcon game what you think is effective :D

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

ok man glad I helped
and yeah, at the right percents, the knee will 'zap' :D
The positioning for both you and your opponent are really precise though

Click to expand...

I've tried this a couple of times yesterday at my mate's house, I noticed it works precise and almost never misses on opponents with damages between 10 to 20. I recommend the maximum you do the FK to LC knee is 20, just so it's more promising to zap.

Mr.Fakeman said:

I've tried this a couple of times yesterday at my mate's house, I noticed it works precise and almost never misses on opponents with damages between 10 to 20. I recommend the maximum you do the FK to LC knee is 20, just so it's more promising to zap.

Click to expand...

yes, thanks for testing it

Probably has more combos/bigger combo range on fat characters.

Wogrim said:

Probably has more combos/bigger combo range on fat characters.

Click to expand...

yes:D

also:
It could be that there are more combo's possible at different percents with sending the opponent up with the middle of the falcon kick>ledge cancel>second jump>arial/special on yoshi's island, as the opponent stands higher than you when you LC.
This may lead to different combo's on different percents

I'll test this somewhere this week
(if someone wants to help me test, please do :D)

Edit: I tested the FK (hitting with the middle of the kick, sending the opponent upward)>LC>SJ>knee on yoshi's island and it works on an opponent falcon at 75%

and FK>LC>SJ>Uair works at 70% this way, on yoshi's island (it shows as 2 consecutive hits in training mode)

I'll test it more later :D

vids of alot of uses for the FK>LC will soon be up