Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

NickRiddle · Mar 30, 2010

rise said:
I want to do Link and Samus because it's going to be fun trying to argue that I think those match-ups are 50:50.

Samus is 55:45, because she cannot kill.
Link, if we gimp him, is 70:30. If we do not gimp him, it's 50:50.

Nefarious B · Mar 30, 2010

I've been doing it just going down the tier list but if people want to do w/e random character I could care less.

And luls at Samus being even, 60-40. Link I can see being closer to even but still not really

Darky-Sama · Mar 30, 2010

Peach, because she's a ***** and gives me problems. e.e

Supermodel From Paris · Mar 30, 2010

Link is sooo even.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 30, 2010

Link not even, you guys are just to greedy for the juggle and get dair'd D:

Darky-Sama · Mar 30, 2010

It's sad, I actually find good Links annoying. It's one of the few match-ups that I actually feel more comfortable with Falcon over ZSS in. e.e

solecalibur · Mar 30, 2010

I'd argue falcon is more even then link and samus....
We aren't like a lot of high tiers that can breeze by the MU and its 60/40 with out them really learning it but once zss learns the MU on some of these characters it is 60/40

Supermodel From Paris · Mar 30, 2010

I don't think there's any chance in hell Link is a winning match-up. I'm not sure what kind of Links you're playing but Link players who can truly control the character are very rare, and in these cases the character becomes very difficult to play against for us sometimes. Link's projectile game is not amazing but it is annoying, especially because Zero Suit doesn't really have a good answer to it (or any projectile game) other than Power Shielding and punishing which doesn't work very well because good Link players pretty much ALWAYS line up projectiles so that two or three hit your shield in quick succession.

Again, you guys need to play Legan or Kirin...

Nefarious B · Mar 30, 2010

How is Link worse than Toon link though. I don't think the improved weight and slightly better kill power is enough to make up for the gimp factor

solecalibur · Mar 30, 2010

I think its the players your vsing not the MU that is taking place when you vs Legan or Kirin , they have more tricks that you were not aware of or prepared for and how fluent their movement is compared to these other link players

noradseven · Mar 30, 2010

rise said:
I don't think there's any chance in hell Link is a winning match-up. I'm not sure what kind of Links you're playing but Link players who can truly control the character are very rare, and in these cases the character becomes very difficult to play against for us sometimes. Link's projectile game is not amazing but it is annoying, especially because Zero Suit doesn't really have a good answer to it (or any projectile game) other than Power Shielding and punishing which doesn't work very well because good Link players pretty much ALWAYS line up projectiles so that two or three hit your shield in quick succession.

Again, you guys need to play Legan or Kirin...

How would you compare yourself to these players in terms of skill and what is the win loss ratio... a falco near me has claimed falco/ZSS is slight falco advantage.

Link is tricky and you gotta know the matchup (lol all matchups with ZSS

) but he is a slight positive. Pay attention to what the link players are doing and your positioning and stop letting them vortex you (caught in an infinite loop of pressure). You should be playing this match likes its melty blood, block and jump around using those air footies, baiting moves, trying to get in that counter hit.

Darky-Sama · Mar 30, 2010

I play Kirin on a regular basis, since he's a part of my {former} brawl crew, and I can honestly say that a good Link isn't something a ZSS should mess around with. Link's projectile game can be a real pain for Zammy.

Also, is Link who we're going to be discussing next?

fkacyan · Mar 30, 2010

Done properly, Link can keep up a stupidly annoying wall of projectiles that ZSS can't really deal with properly because her spacing moves all have startup lag, and the fast moves require you to approach his sword through the projectiles. And swords mean disjoints!

I wouldn't say Link really merits discussion - if anybody ever picks him you just pick D3 and lolCG your way to a gimp, not that you'll ever see him in any serious tourney unless somebody's trolling - but the matchup is even if not his advantage based on my experiences.

inb4cyanide'sexperienceisn'tlegit

Darky-Sama · Mar 30, 2010

Thiocyanide said:
Done properly, Link can keep up a stupidly annoying wall of projectiles that ZSS can't really deal with properly because her spacing moves all have startup lag, and the fast moves require you to approach his sword through the projectiles. And swords mean disjoints!

^
This is my problem with the match-up.

solecalibur · Mar 30, 2010

I treat the link MU just like Toon links im not quite sure how this is different as we have the same advantages yet link is a little more .... bulkier and his projectile game is some what manageable to deal with as we have many moves that can neutralize his projectiles or even have more priority over

Im also going to assume link is our new character

Zero · Mar 31, 2010

Link has fast moves? lol.

fkacyan · Mar 31, 2010

kaleidoRuby said:
Link has fast moves? lol.

No.

Our spacing moves, i.e. side B, paralyzer, etc, all have more startup lag than his projectiles, making it hard for us to properly use them if he walls us. Our fast moves, like uptilt, dtilt, jab, etc, require us to approach through the wall and into a disjoint sword range, which is pretty bad for us.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 31, 2010

That could be said about TL too, but we have a 60/40 mu against tl.

Dumbfire · Mar 31, 2010

Link wil contineuly be trying to reset his spacing.
HIs Zair is pretty good, his projectiles aren't too bad, and he has a few good options.
Links jab is good, and his Fsmash can be tricky. Make sure you space uair good or your going to get killed by a Dair.

Its pretty sad to say, but offstage > Link.
Make sure the Link doesn't have a bomb tough.

But Dsmash edgegaurding games wil pretty much screw him..
Thats the big advantage we have over link.

I will note more later, if this is the next matchup.

Supermodel From Paris · Mar 31, 2010

I think TL is actually a lot easier to juggle, and his projectile game isn't really as good vs ZSS IMO because the boomerang isn't a "wall" like Adult Link's is.

Also I think it is markedly easier for ZSS to gimp Toon Link because of Gale Boomerang and because of how heavy Adult Link is. ZSS can't really reliably gimp Link, although yes his recovery is terrible. Link should still kill ZSS first though, whereas TL should have a really hard time landing a kill move.

If you'd like you can feel free to ask Legan about my abilities as a player, although it has been a long time since I played him and they were (very very good, almost like he was in the room) Wifi matches. The games I played against Kirin a while back (offline) were few, but a little easier. Legan will likely vouch for my abilities and will say I'm a pretty good player, but not great, which is true. These players are better than I am, but I can still understand the difficulties both characters will face in this match-up.

I'm a bit surprised at the reaction to my assertion that the match-up is even here, because Link's strengths are all very strongly in opposition to Zero Suit's weaknesses (Link's ground game is ****ing amazing and Zero Suit's is terrible, Link is harder to juggle because dair is nasty, his projectile game is good enough that Zero Suit's weak approach game is noticable, etc). There's a lot of "LINK IS BAD LOL" here, which is a little ignorant and frankly false (Link is THE most underrated character in this game).

Nefarious B · Mar 31, 2010

Really SFP? Because I see a lot of people agreeing with you or slightly differing

solecalibur · Mar 31, 2010

Link is easier to juggle then TL and Link's boomerang is worse then TL's
I'll elaborate later...

and don't give me the crap Link is underrated I've heard that from every other low tier main

Supermodel From Paris · Apr 1, 2010

Uh I don't main LInk, and most Link players think Link is terrible.

solecalibur · Apr 1, 2010

I really dont want to start who is and who isnt under rated but I've heard one to many times character X shouldn't be a low tier for reason Y
I've even seen a number of blogs saying how ganon isn't the worst character and many low tier mains or just people who watch them and say they shouldn't be low tier

Dumbfire · Apr 1, 2010

I completely agree with SFP, Link is underrated. Its not like Ganon underrated, just really underrated. Link is not crap, and If you don't take him seriously you are going to have a really hard time.

Link has a few faster moves, wich wil not get him punished so fast.
Those are his Jabs, Up Tilt, Zair, Nair and Bair.
His projectile wall is really hard to get through. The best thing to do is being more aggresive on him, because I don't think were gonna win the spacing fight. But Links jab is an awesome gtfo move, so we can't really be in front of him either.

If you get him in the air, his Dair will kill you at ridicilus percents..
And he will mostly have a bomb, so Gimping him isn't easily.

Link mains have godly DI, mostly the basic:
Angle knocback Upward, Bair Momentum Cancel, Fastfall, Jump To bomb Pull (fastfall bomb Pull). That if he doesn't have a bomb yet.
If we send him perfectly horizontal, he wil use Zair + DI, wich enables him to live till like 300 percent.

Really, Link is not crap.
Take those things in mind when playing him/writing a MU.
Don't really now this MU for ZSS actually.. Ill just play some Links I know and then maybe I can get my opinion on it.

solecalibur · Apr 1, 2010

Link's projectile wall can be shut down with neutral B as it neutralizes his boomerang and arrows (not bombs) , Of course his projectiles are much faster then ours but we should be able to weave through his wall and find openings

Eatting Link's Dair is also a ridiculous idea with the fact that it is very easy to see coming and that our uair and upB competely destroy it when you see a dair coming (which you should), and space accordingly

I'll admit Link's have good DI when they go flying and the fact that I stale almost everything doesn't quite help me either yet Im still able to finish off links way before they do as it's much easier to shut him down getting him into the air and in the air, Of course this is depending on their skill levels as that is how MU's are played and I've played my fair share of links I still believe he is a 60/40 zss / link

Dumbfire · Apr 2, 2010

I think thats a good numer.
Don't have expierince in this MU, so will fight some Links.

But bombs are there most used projectile, and after that the Gale Boomerang for extra walling..
Arrows aren't too commonly used anymore as the other ones.

Dakpo · Apr 11, 2010

honestly the match depends on the link mostly, if the link spams zair and a lot of projectiles then it going to be easier for link. That goes with any character. projectile spam is zamus biggest weakness and link and tink are nooo exception. zair to fast for us to pull side B and it goes through Neutral B. Luckily his recover sucks balls so we can get early kill especially with armor pieces. Perfecting shielding all his attack is key. His little jab combos are escape able. sdi and tdi up and towards and Down B and you go right behind him. Its the best when they grab because its a free hit. All in all i would say the match up is in zss favor simply because she can combo him and gimp him fairly well with a ridukeris downsmash lock

Ill be adding more about all the match ups when i get the chance, im kinda knew here

NickRiddle · Apr 11, 2010

After playing FL's only Link yesterday, I think it's easier than I originally thought.

Do not chase after Link with uairs, you'll eat a dair and die at 80.
F-tilt is amazing to knock Link off the level, at the trajectory he hates.

Pit is still 50:50.
Link is 60:40.

TheZeroSuit · Apr 11, 2010

I put Pit at 50-50 and Link at 60-40 since that seems to be most inline with peoples' general opinions. I wanted to do a matchup that I feel like we have discussed at all really so...
WOLF:

NickRiddle · Apr 11, 2010

Wolf is weird.
Our d-smash chain has to be frame perfect, or we get shined for it... I think we might get shined anyway, since it starts invulnerable.
He obviously gets gimped, and he falls prey to d-smash>footstool>tether.
Smashes are stupid, as is bair.
50:50 again.

Dakpo · Apr 11, 2010

the lazers put a good stop to most spacing methods for us, d-smash ***** on both sides. I HATE this matchup but wolfs can be shut down if you know the match up. i say 55:45 zss favor.

Darky-Sama · Apr 12, 2010

50:50, basically like NR said.

Wolf's Smashes, Bair and Nair are ridiculous, but his recovery options are easy to edgehog or punish via downsmash. I'd say we have more of an advantage on a platform based stage like Battlefield though.

solecalibur · Apr 12, 2010

seems 50/50 if not 55/45 zss but that is only from MU exp from my friend I played and I think we also have a dash attack lock on wolf? also asked wolf boards to help out

Nefarious B · Apr 12, 2010

How is Wolf's nair used? It seems like it leaves him at a frame disadvantage if he land cancels it and isn't particularly safe on shield, i guess it makes his hurtbox really small though so that's useful in some ways.

Dash lock is really effective in this matchup, just like against all the spacies. Other than that I'm not really sure on matchup specifics. Wolf's laser seems not that useful imo, extremely easy to PS and slow startup

Darky-Sama · Apr 12, 2010

Wolf's Nair auto cancels pretty well and stays out for a decent amount of time. It has several hitboxes, both weak and strong. I've actually been hit with a weak Nair -> rising Bair a good number of times.

I dunno though, Wolf's Nair is really weird. It has a strong hitbox if started while overlapping another character, it can have a weak hitbox, and it can be treated like a phantasm (without causing any hitstun or stagger) and still deal damage {IIRC}.

Not a Wolf specialist though, but it's a pretty good move. I've even been gimped off my tether by it before. lol

#HBC | ZoZo · Apr 12, 2010

Nice avy Darky, it's from the shadowvid of Bad Apple isn't it? I love that song ^_^

zApollo · Apr 12, 2010

I only have minimal experience against good Wolf players though I agree with the 50/50 ratio, when playing them I didn't find the MU to be at all that challenging once you learn to shield that annoying d-smash.
We'd easily have the advantage on platform stages. His recovery is very predictable and punishable, and ZSS loves predictable recoveries.

Seagull Joe · Apr 12, 2010

From my experience this match up seems in Wolf's favor slightly. Zss is light, her everything can be reflected, she can be camped, Wolf is heavy, Wolf can bair chain Zss with no difficulty, Wolf can't really gimp Zss easily, but she can't either.

I've only really played 2 Zss's.

Snakeee- Who 2 stocked me.
and
Sassy- Who I regularly beat.

55-45 Wolf's favor or even. The Dsmash lock can also be DI'd out of. And the dash attack lock works on everyone so I don't see how useful it is pertaining to specific matchups since it can be done to every character.

I'm expecting JJ and Dazwa to comment based on their experiences versing each other.

#HBC | ZoZo · Apr 12, 2010

ZSS' everything can be reflected?

I REFLECT DISJOINTED LEGS

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