Aerial Strings Analysis (ver 0.7 9-Nov - Fireballs!)

LATEST UPDTATE (9-Nov): Well this thing has so much info now that I'll have to figure out another way to organize everything. I added Fireball analysis and the methods I used to come up with the information (except Fireballs for now). If nothing else, read the NEW Conclusion below for good info.

CONCLUSIONS
FIREBALLS!! Luigi's Fireball Aerial Strings with the least lag are his fAir to Fireball, dAir to Fireball, and all others that start with a Fireball. If you're playing against short opponents, you might consider Low or Grounded Fireballs, but if you're playing against Short Hoppers, you might want to start Aerials with Fireballs or use fAir to Fireball.

If you want to make a barage of Aerials with the least amount of lag as possible, Stringing together fAir, dAir, and uAir is the best route as they will Autocancel. Landing with nAir is low in lag too. So use these if you want to stay fast. Strings that are more likely to connect with the opponent (or his Shield) is bbAir AND anything ending with nAir. If you're dealing with a Spot Dodger, use those.

RESULTS
Join me in calling strings of Aerial Attacks by first the directions, and then the "Air". For example FFAir instead of FAir->FAir, and DNAir instead of DAir->NAir. Autocancelable means if the Aerial String will Autocancel upon landing (Green=Yes, Red=No). LUL stands for Lag Upon Landing and displays how many frames of uninterruptable lag you will get when you land (Green=Great, Yellow=Fine, Red=Bad). Hitbox Frames shows the total number of Hitbox frames exist within the 51 frame Short Hop; the more the better.
nAir
nnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 33 (lands on hitbox)
nfAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 22, Hitbox Frames = 29 (fAir hitbox never comes out)
ndAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 29 (dAir hitbox never comes out)
nbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 30 (lands on hitbox)
nuAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 31 (lands on hitbox)
nAir,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 80, Fireball Height: Grounded
fAir
fnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 30 (lands on hitbox)
ffAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 8
fdAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 13
fbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 15
fuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
ffnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 11 (lands on hitbox)
ffuAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 9 (lands on hitbox)
fAir,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Fireball Height: High
dAir
dnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 32 (lands on hitbox)
dfAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 9
ddAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 10
dbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 16
duAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 12
dAir,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 17, Fireball Height: Low
bAir
bnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 24 (lands on hitbox)
bfAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 22, Hitbox Frames = 15
bdAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 16
bbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 21 (lands on hitbox)
buAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 18
bAir,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 25, Fireball Height: Grounded
uAir
unAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 27 (lands on hitbox)
ufAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
udAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 12
ubAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 18
uuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 14
uAir,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 18, Fireball Height: Low
Fireball
Fireball,nAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Fireball Height: High
Fireball,fAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 22, Fireball Height: High
Fireball,dAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Fireball Height: High
Fireball,bAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Fireball Height: High
Fireball,uAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Fireball Height: High
Fireball,Fireball: Autocancels = No, LUL: 29, Fireball Height: High/Grounded

METHOD
Autocancel: To figure out if an Aerial String will Autocancel, I just add the first Aerial's uninterruptable frames and the second Aerial's "autocancelable after" frames; if they add up to 51 or less, the Aerial String will Autocancel. Below are examples.
nnAir: 45 uninterruptable frames + 35 non-autocancelable frames = 80
dfAir: 28 uninterruptable frames + 20 non-autocancelable = 48

Lag Upon Landing (LUL): To figure out the Lag Upon Landing I just used the Landlag for Aerial Strings that don't Autocancel, and the SH Landing Lag for Aerial Strings that do. Both are listed below in in the Initial Data section.

Hitbox Frames: For Aerial Strings who's hitbox isn't interrupted, I just add both Hitbox Frames together.
ffAir: 4 Hitbox + 4 Hitbox = 8
For Aerial Strings who's hitbox is interrupted (lands on hitbox), I just add both hitboxes together again, minus whatever get's cut off from landing.
bbAir: 11 Hitbox + 11 Hitbox - 1 Interrupted = 21

INITIAL DATA
For reference, I used frame data from Magus420's Extensive Frame Data listing for Luigi. That thread should be stickied BTW.

• nAir = 45 frames
  Hitbox Frames = 2 Startup + 29 Hitbox + 14 Lag
  Interruptable After: None (45th)
  AutoCancelable After: 35th
  Landlag Interruptable After: 10th
• fAir = 35 frames
  Hibox Frames = 6 Startup + 4 Hitbox + 13 Lag
  Interruptable After: 23rd
  AutoCancelable After: 20th
  Landlag Interruptable After: 22nd
• dAir = 32 frames
  Hitbox Frames = 9 Startup + 5 Hitbox + 14 Lag
  Interruptable After: : 28th
  AutoCancelable After: 23rd
  Landlag Interruptable After: 12th
• bAir = 46 frames
  Hitbox Frames = 5 Startup + 11 Hitbox + 20 Lag
  Interruptable After: 36th
  AutoCancelable After: 32nd
  Landlag Interruptable After: 12th
• uAir = 33 frames
  Hitbox Frames = 4 Startup + 7 Hitbox + 18 Lag
  Interruptable After: 29th
  AutoCancelable After: 18th
  Landlag Interruptable After: 13th
• Fireball = 46 frames
  Fireball Created: 17th, Lasts: 48 Frames
  Interruptable After: 40th
  AutoCancelable After: N/A
  Landlag Interruptable After: N/A
• Short Hop = 51 frames
  Landing Lag Interruptable After = 2nd (slow fall)

NEXT UPDATE: Next update will probably have some changes to how the info is organized, to make it easier to read. Plus, I'll add some sort of Award thingy where I award strings with "Most Hitbox Time," "Worst Lag," etc. Again, as always, probably some fixes.

ver 0.1 Nov4: Created
ver 0.2 Nov4: Changed how Autocancelable frames are counted.
ver 0.3 Nov5: Added short Autocancel description. Added both of Luigi's Triple Aerials.
ver 0.4 Nov5: Removed statement that decribed the results as "plausible".
ver 0.5 Nov5: Added "Lag Upon Landing" and new conclusions on them.
ver 0.6 Nov6: Vastly cleaned and organized. Added Hitbox Frame data.
ver 0.7 Nov9: Added Fireball data and analysis in SH strings. Color coded Hitbox Frame data. Added Methods for LUL and Hitbox.

This is a nice list, what do you think about making one for Mario too?

Nice job Elhber put it somewhere in the ToC or something so we can look back as a reference.

I know that Dair->Dair, somehow, can be done w/o landing lag.

Also tangentially relevant the two short hop triple aerials that I know about are Fair->Fair->Nair and Fair->Fair->Uair

had I not tried to quote your post, I would have had trouble telling the red and green.

10colorblinds ;d

The autocancels are read as the number listed and before/after that.

So

Auto Cancel: <5 24>

Would mean landing on the 5th frame or earlier, and 24th frame or later it will AC.

For the d-air->d-air it'd be a duration of 28 for the first and 23 would pass on the 2nd (51 total which is the shorthop duration), and then landing on the 24th frame of the 2nd d-air, which just barely ACs.

Magus420 said:

The autocancels are read as the number listed and before/after that.

So

Auto Cancel: <5 24>

Would mean landing on the 5th frame or earlier, and 24th frame or later it will AC.

For the d-air->d-air it'd be a duration of 28 for the first and 23 would pass on the 2nd (51 total which is the shorthop duration), and then landing on the 24th frame of the 2nd d-air, which just barely ACs.

Click to expand...

I read it like programming code. When I read 24> I read it as "More than 24" not "More than or equal to 24," so I used 25. If you're telling me that it will autocancel on the 24th frame, then I will reduce my "AC" numbers by 1.

By the math I did for dAir to dAir, with the new numbers you told me, 28 IA + 24 AC = 52. You're telling me that dAir to dAir will just barely autocancel. This means I'll have to change the way I count the frames for autocanceling again, as landing on that 24th frame of the second dAir (the 52nd frame of the entire aerial string) will autocancel because it first touched the ground on the 52nd frame (51 was still in the air).

Now I will list the AC as AutoCancelable After (ACA) and number it one frame less. So dAir to dAir will look like: 28 IA + 23 ACA = 51. The 52nd frame will begin a landing animation.

Thank you Magus. I knew I'd be revising something.

EDIT:

Eten said:

...Also tangentially relevant the two short hop triple aerials that I know about are Fair->Fair->Nair and Fair->Fair->Uair

Click to expand...

I think I'll do that. But since there's only 2 triple aerial strings that have a hitbox pop out on the 3rd aerial, and none of them can land without an aerial lag, I thought it wouldn't fit in with the other aerial strings listed.

Still, I'll do it just for the sake of being complete. After I get back.

EDIT2:
Oh one last thing: Fireball, does it have any autocancel frames?

awesome, I loves me some numbers.

Updated. I added the lag you'll feel after doing any of those aerial strings.

elhe, are you up for some 1v1s tonight? i want you to critique my buffering progress so far

Sorry broski, I've got to work in 1 hour. I work at an airport (LAX) and when Daylight Savings ended here, it still stayed the same around the world... so I have to work 1 hour earlier than normal. Otherwise, I'd be playing right now.

I'll look for you tomorrow.

LATEST UPDTATE (5-Nov): The first post has been cleaned up and is now in "Reverse Method Order." I totaly made that up but it means that everything is now in a reverse order where the Conclusion is at the beginning and the Initial Data at the end. Also, I've added hitbox frame data. Interesting stuff. Below is the new info, or you could read the first post instead.

CONCLUSION
Firstly, the new stuff. Performing nfAirs or ndAirs is a huge bad idea since following an the nAir will fAir or dAir will not give you the second Aerial's hitbox before you land. It's not included here yet, but ndAir WILL Autocancel though. Starting AND ending your aerials with fAir, dAir, and uAir will always autocancel, leaving you with relatively lagless landings. Ending your Aerial String with nAir will maximize your hitbox airtime without much Lag Upon Landing... perhaps really good against projectile spammers. The Aerial Strings with the most Hitbox Airtime is nnAir and dnAir (yes, that one!). The least is ffAir.

RESULTS
Join me in calling strings of Aerial Attacks by first the directions, and then the "Air". For example FFAir instead of FAir->FAir, and DNAir instead of DAir->NAir. Autocancelable means if the Aerial String will Autocancel upon landing (Green=Yes, Red=No). LUL stands for Lag Upon Landing and displays how many frames of uninterruptable lag you will get when you land (Green=Great, Yellow=Fine, Red=Bad). Hitbox Frames shows the total number of Hitbox frames exist within the 51 frame Short Hop; the more the better.
nAir
nnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 33 (lands on hitbox)
nfAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 22, Hitbox Frames = 29 (fAir hitbox never comes out)
ndAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 29 (dAir hitbox never comes out)
nbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 30 (lands on hitbox)
nuAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 31 (lands on hitbox)
fAir
fnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 30 (lands on hitbox)
ffAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 8
fdAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 13
fbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 15
fuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
ffnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 11 (lands on hitbox)
ffuAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 9 (lands on hitbox)
dAir
dnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 32 (lands on hitbox)
dfAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 9
ddAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 10
dbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 16
duAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 12
bAir
bnAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 24 (lands on hitbox)
bfAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 22, Hitbox Frames = 15
bdAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 16
bbAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 21 (lands on hitbox)
buAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 13, Hitbox Frames = 18
uAir
unAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 10, Hitbox Frames = 27 (lands on hitbox)
ufAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
udAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 12
ubAir: Autocancels = No, LUL: 12, Hitbox Frames = 18
uuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 14

see.. if i was kickass in math.. i'd understand this sh*t.... lol... but no.... my math teacher gives me a 70 T.T
gotta learn how to autocancel now :/

yeha this all looks pretty but i don;t know what it means or how i can apply it in life...or smahs rather.

hippiedude92 said:

see.. if i was kickass in math.. i'd understand this sh*t.... lol... but no.... my math teacher gives me a 70 T.T
gotta learn how to autocancel now :/

Click to expand...

You're already doing it automatically... that's why it's called autocanceling. Everytime you do a dfAir (dAir -> fAir) you're autocanceling and landing with only 2 frames of lag. Luigi has tons of Autocancelable Aerial Strings.

elheber said:

You're already doing it automatically... that's why it's called autocanceling. Everytime you do a dfAir (dAir -> fAir) you're autocanceling and landing with only 2 frames of lag. Luigi has tons of Autocancelable Aerial Strings.

Click to expand...

Well yeah, but he means timing his aerials so it autocancels...but you already do that hippie o-O

WIGI said:

yeha this all looks pretty but i don;t know what it means or how i can apply it in life...or smahs rather.

Click to expand...

It's all in the Conclusion (in the beginning):

Stringing together fAir/dAir/uAir in any order will autocancel. This means you get less lag when you land, and lets you Jab someone in the face only 3 frames after landing (1/20th of a second) or whatever else you want to do after those 2 frames of Lag Upon Landing.

When you see this:
dfAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 9
The "Yes" means that dAir->fAir will autocancel, and when you land you'll have only 2 frames of lag (Lag Upon Landing), so that you can quickly do anything else.

Well this thread turned out absolutely awesome.

So i'm guessing this some what contributive meta-game proof? If it is, then big awsome job Elh :D And I autocancel my aerials? Lol? I swear I hate f**kin numbers :[

put it in toc or something

hippiedude92 said:

So i'm guessing this some what contributive meta-game proof? If it is, then big awsome job Elh :D And I autocancel my aerials? Lol? I swear I hate f**kin numbers :[

put it in toc or something

Click to expand...

Done.

What I posted is stuff we already know instinctively... such as why dnAir and bbAir is so awesome. But I posted the WHY they're so awesome. The most surprising thing to me is all the autocancelable strings we have. For someone that wants to be a lighting fast Luigi, all they have to do is use Autocancelable Strings and FFADs. BAM! Inta-fast Luigi!

Ish updated Elheber :]. Though I find many new people don't read the TOC xD.

ALiAsVee said:

Ish updated Elheber :]. Though I find many new people don't read the TOC xD.

Click to expand...

I use the ToC just to find threads and I'm hardly new. It's way useful.

I agree on the conclusion/analysis that elheber came to find from the frame data and how you put it all together to make a lightning-fast Luigi. There is no doubt that Luigi's constant barrage of lagless attacks is one of his best attributes.

Next update will have include the Fireball (fAir->Fireball and whatnot), and color coded Hitbox Frame data... so that I may begin ranking Luigi's Aerial Strings.

Good stuff elheber, I could use the info on fireball stuff. Fireball + dair = ownage FYI.

Eten said:

I use the ToC just to find threads and I'm hardly new. It's way useful.

I agree on the conclusion/analysis that elheber came to find from the frame data and how you put it all together to make a lightning-fast Luigi. There is no doubt that Luigi's constant barrage of lagless attacks is one of his best attributes.

Click to expand...

So like, with this list, I can add the listed aerials to my game and make it a lagless aerial string game yes?

hippiedude92 said:

So like, with this list, I can add the listed aerials to my game and make it a lagless aerial string game yes?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it "lagless" but you would be minimizing your lag to the lowest possible by using only FFADs and the following Aerial Strings (that Autocancel):
ffAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 8
fdAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 13
fuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
dfAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 9
ddAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 10
duAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 12
ufAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
uuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 14

ffAir, fdAir, dfAir, and ddAir would perhaps be the best out of those. I also wouldn't play without bbAir and dnAir, but they would have to be used where you need something else other than speed. Like for example if you need to space, bbAir is still a beast. But yes, to answer your question -adding these to your game will make you faster.

EDIT: ALiAs, I love how you called it "Aerial String Analysis" in the version area at the end of the post in your ToC...

ALiAsVee said:

November 7, 2008: Version 1.7: Added Aerial String Analysis

Click to expand...

That's way better than just plain ol' "Aerial Strings." The next update will also include a Thread Title change with the new name. I'll keep you posted.

elheber said:

I wouldn't call it "lagless" but you would be minimizing your lag to the lowest possible by using only FFADs and the following Aerial Strings (that Autocancel):
ffAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 8
fdAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 13
fuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
dfAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 9
ddAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 10
duAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 12
ufAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 11
uuAir: Autocancels = Yes, LUL: 2, Hitbox Frames = 14

ffAir, fdAir, dfAir, and ddAir would perhaps be the best out of those. I also wouldn't play without bbAir and dnAir, but they would have to be used where you need something else other than speed. Like for example if you need to space, bbAir is still a beast. But yes, to answer your question -adding these to your game will make you faster.

EDIT: ALiAs, I love how you called it "Aerial String Analysis" in the version area at the end of the post in your ToC... That's way better than just plain ol' "Aerial Strings." The next update will also include a Thread Title change with the new name. I'll keep you posted.

Click to expand...

I had to give it some description; and FAQ, walkthrough, or guide didn't quite fit, so I thought analysis would fit better.

New update. Read below or read above. I also changed the title, so I have to remind ALiAs in his ToC thread to change it. Don't let me forget.

LATEST UPDTATE (9-Nov): Well this thing has so much info now that I'll have to figure out another way to organize everything. I added Fireball analysis and the methods I used to come up with the information (except Fireballs for now). If nothing else, read the NEW Conclusion below for good info.

CONCLUSIONS
FIREBALLS!! Luigi's Fireball Aerial Strings with the least lag are his fAir to Fireball, dAir to Fireball, and all others that start with a Fireball. If you're playing against short opponents, you might consider Low or Grounded Fireballs, but if you're playing against Short Hoppers, you might want to start Aerials with Fireballs or use fAir to Fireball.

If you want to make a barage of Aerials with the least amount of lag as possible, Stringing together fAir, dAir, and uAir is the best route as they will Autocancel. Landing with nAir is low in lag too. So use these if you want to stay fast. Strings that are more likely to connect with the opponent (or his Shield) is bbAir AND anything ending with nAir. If you're dealing with a Spot Dodger, use those.