(Team AT ?) Matrix Thunder

[REVISED 11/6 8:50pm EST]
Dear Pika's:

Many would agree that Pikachu's strongest practical move to hit an opponent with would ge the blue explosion of thunder: having good range, temporary INVINCIBILITY, and lag-reduction makes it one of pikachu's most epic KO'ing moves in the game--limited only by the time it takes the lightning to hit pikachu and the short duration of the blue blast. Even for like 1/10'seconds of duration, Pikachu's of all kinds have battled, gimped, and won with this move.

Imagine having the Explosion last 2 times the duration! How about 3x's. How about 1 full second or more?!

Mostly by accident, this new tech combines long-known physics of Brawl with the unique properties of Pikachu's thunder. What we have is a thunder explosion that lasts almost a full second (actually 0.649 sec--still quite long for a move of this calibur). Yes, the practicallity of this move still requires a teammate, but the requirements of the tech essentially requires only 2 factors: Pikachu's thunder explosion and a constant supply of "targets."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3xzQvawR7E

Yes.... the explosion hitbox lasts for the ENTIRE time that pikachu is "raising his paws to the clouds!" and then the Thunder Rod hitbox continues to take place before and slightly after the explosion. When executed perfectly in the perfect situation, the opponent must dodge THREE hitboxes: thunder rod > blue explosion > residual lightning rod hitbox on pikachu's body as he DI's insanely upwards in a sickle-path after the explosion. the hitbox has been confirmed on a "victim" by Stealth Raptor and other Better-Pika's and I will update this thread with credits whenever I recieve the epic footage.

>>> _ _ _ Placeholder for credit and vid 2.

Breakdown: Pikachu's thunder explosion, as with other moves, lag when hitting a shield. Another property of SUPER MOVES (super-armor, invincibility [pika's T2 falls into this cat.] is the absolute priority when executed perfectly); as any hit attempting to overprioritize either Thunder/DKpunch/Euruption/etc. will NEVER cancel but only lag (similar to shield-hit lag) the move until the super-move comes to completion. Now, the good thing for Pikachu is that his thunder has invinciblility (hehe :D).

If a shield gets hit by aerial thunder explosion, the hitbox will lag for a little bit and that is the most basic form of this tech. Continuous supply of "targets" such as Mario/Squirtle's water streams lag Pikachu's Thunder Explosion for an ABSURDLY long period of time. Not only does pikachu freeze in place like the movies of "Matrix" but the tech requires a big/continuous array or a "matrix" of targets to execute.

Radial hitbox, offstage capability, simple setup, dangerous to punish, and invincibility: we have one of the most sickest thunder applications ever, ready to be used in the hands of masters.

"Pikaa!" 'em all folks!

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu (LDPK), a fledgling Smashboards'er
NC, USA

Very nice find. more reason to <3 thunder more.

Apparently from the looks of it, the brawl engine causes the lag from the martix of targets right?
So because pika is in the thunder but not doing the "blue explosion" pika seems to accumilate power in the explosion until the matrix of targets stop. Oh, and by power I mean verticle jumping distance. The failed attempt in the vid at :30 shows the same amount of verticle distance. Upon comparing the failed attempt and the example immediately afterwards it appears that the location of either pika or the thunder is important. Firstly the failed attempt's verticle thunder continuos downward at about a little more than a pika's height. The example has almost no "unused" thunder. Furthermore, both the failed attempt's and the example's mario was in the same position, but the aiming of the squirt varied in the failed attempt, and the aiming of the squirt was continual in the example.

Upon further viewing, the example in :21 shows that not all of the water targets made it to pika, and that pika was on the floor, sliding backwards before and after he did the blue explosion.

There are two types of this move, when pika touches the floor and when he doesn't. Multiple examples showing him touching the floor are failures, also multiple examples showing him not touching the floor are successes!

Hopefully that should help a little bit for figureing out how to do it.

Also, we need, you know, actual practical use in a team battle. Mario is a lower tier character (I'm not hating). Mario's squirt takes time to load, and aim (But that's probably not a problem for a good Mario, huh?) Also how safe is it to do offstage? Isn't there another way onstage?

Also, your breakdown was really hard to read and understand. sry

That's all I got for now, now I have one hour to write a paper. ^^ hurray for me!!!! (>^^)>

<3
<3
<3
<3
Hawt.

Wow...that's really cool. That would be a SICK edgeguarding tactic. Nice find!

Zylar said:

There are two types of this move, when pika touches the floor and when he doesn't. Multiple examples showing him touching the floor are failures, also multiple examples showing him not touching the floor are successes!.... Isn't there another way onstage?

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Yes, my recent experiments show that the best lag applies to the aerial version of the thunder explosion. Exceptions I noted are some Matrix'es on slanted stages such as Yoshi's Island (maybe flies off edge for a bit?) collapseable ledges like Yoshi Pipes. You can technically do it "on stage" if you just short hop or place yourself so that the rod hits pikachu RIGHT BEFORE he touches the ground. He can Matrix REALLY CLOSE to the ground so anywhere 1~2+ pixels above or offstage can be matrixed.

Zylar said:

Also, we need, you know, actual practical use in a team battle. Mario is a lower tier character (I'm not hating). Mario's squirt takes time to load, and aim (But that's probably not a problem for a good Mario, huh?) Also how safe is it to do offstage?

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I will be posting videos shortly. My brother (Arc) and I generally do better on doubles in tourneys, and are toying with team strats and tech. He mains Toon Link with Mario and Lucas as his backups (secondaries), so the chances of him landing me with ANY of those characters' moves are actually pretty high.

Charging is similar to Donkey Kong's punch (and most DK's get used to waiting anyways), and the long duration of the spray can compensate for mistakes--plus, the water can't really kill or damage pikachu anyways, so the mistakes can make room for some mindgames.

My bro can already hit me with bombs, arrows, and boomerang during my explosion because pikachu's explosion hitbox is large anyway, so with some getting used to, water should be no problem. One fun fact is the water parts passing pikachu can still affect recovering opponents. With any tech, practice is needed for practicality.

And as for the safety of the tech, Pikachu is invincible for the whole duration of the explosion hitbox (no damage + no flinch) and the last remaining parts of the move still have hitboxes. As long as you don't position yourself for a stage-spike it seems to be as safe as any other offstage pika-thunder.

I am trying to work with other-tier chars and will update accordingly. Thanks for the input! And sorry for the post being being hard to read--I tuned it up a bit.

Sincerely,
LDPK

hmm, you may want to try squirtle, ness (pk wind!), shiek's up-b, g&w's U-air, TL's d-air, kirby and DDD's swallow... etc.

Thanks for the inputs--I'll get to testing soon! :D

Oh and as for g&W, TL's d-air's wind, kirby, and DDD, they don't have physical hitboxes on those "air" moves to use as targest in "matrix," although one can safely set-up Cross thunder with the push.

>>>See cross thunder thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202530

REgarding the matrix, shiek's up-b (fire exit part) and Ness's pk flash will do quite nicely. NEss's is AMAZING if you get full-charged flash matrix right--one downfall tho.... if Ness or pikachu get the timing wrong, you have a dead pika. Squirtle's water gun works in the same way as mario if you prefer PT, however you can't do a uncharged version because squirtle's has the short spray whereas mario has a shorter duration long spray. Squirtle does have more aerial control to setup his placement for juicin' pikachu's thunder, so if that is a nice trade-off then by all means. Also with PT a short thunder matrix can be done with razor leaf b/c the leaf travels somewhat slow, and I am working on matrixing charizard's rocksmash pebbles without getting charizard killed (that'll be something cool to see).

I am goin to see if all the char across the board can help pikachu matrix. Of course some are better, some (like jigglypuff) don't really work at all without getting the supplier killed.

My experimentation plans:
1. slanted stages (QAC/thunder slope cancel to matrix?),
2. breakable stages (Yoshi pipes, island (shy guys), melee samus stages (cell bridge), and apple/box combo of green greens
3. possible illegal but funny pika black hole matrix glitch (green green Ganon axe kick glitch with matrixed thunder
4. Peach's toad spores > Pika-matrix
5. Lucus' Pk fire and pk thunder > pika-matrix
6. Wario fart sweetspot > pika-matrix O_O *gasps* someone whose actually high tier?
7. Rob top > pika-matrix
8. Staggered snake grenades > pika-matrix
9. Zelda din fire > matrix
10. DDD waddle/spike(risk for more lag?!) and ddd super armor > matrix
11. Olimar pikmin attachment/airborne or whistle > matrix

That's the list thus far of the first things I want to test. If anyone wants to help, it would be much appreciated. And videos would be nice also! :D

Sincerely,
LDPK

Din's Fire isn't going to work. It'll just hit Pikachu.

while this is pretty cool and all it just makes brawl look all the more ridiculous... did they bother bugtesting it at all?

Bugtesting only has it's limits, like time and money. Also do you really think the testers can find all the bugs in the menus, music, animations, graphics, stages, movesets, priority, knockback, percentages, Subspace Emassary, target test, boss fights, items, time limits, stocks, coin battles, correct recovery items, hitbox's, item's time on stage, etc, etc, etc...

LOL, Legendary Pika you are no noob at all (I mean the name under your name )

I seem to be misunderstanding something. In team battles, is friendly fire supposed to be on?

yes team damage is supposed to be on. with tean damage off it can allow some super broken combos.

Stealth Raptor said:

yes team damage is supposed to be on. with tean damage off it can allow some super broken combos.

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Adding to this:

Ike/DDD/Snake(big killers, no fear of killing team mate) Falco/Pit (spammers, no fear of hitting team mate) all benefit with team attack off.

team attack on makes team mates actually have to synchronize with each other to not hit each other while comboing the other team.

Does this work with Quick Attack? lol

Pikachu is b-r-o-k-e-n.

Successor of Raphael said:

Din's Fire isn't going to work. It'll just hit Pikachu.

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Thanks for the testing. We have negative on Zelda working. Now just make sure that the hit is during pikachu's invincibility frames while in midair. If that is the case then, yes, Zelda's Din does not work with matrix for some reason. I'll look into this myself. I am having trouble getting a good snake to help me with chain-explosives-matrixing. If anyone has a snake friend please ask them to test with a pikachu if they are interested.

Zylar said:

LOL, Legendary Pika you are no noob at all (I mean the name under your name )

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I was wondering how the ranks go. In terms of posting, tournaments, and smashboards, I am still a newb tho.

*sidenote* Ali.... where are you?

ph00tbag said:

Pikachu is b-r-o-k-e-n.

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lol. next i will hear dsmash is broken

and it goes by post count, something like 0-25 noob, 25-100 child, 100-500 journey man, 500-1000 apprentice, 1000-2500 lord, 2500+ master.

I got an idea for a practical use.
You know how Ike's Aether is extremely difficult to overcome?
How about seeing what happens when you use a matrix thunder during Ike's UpB???

1. Pit's up-B (WoI)
I didn't think this through as well....

Pikachu's forward momentum would have to be so small as to BARELY miss the thunder, and when Pit uses WoI to push Pikachu back into thunder, he'll get it. Overall, Pikachu's momentum has to be perfect and it's not worth the effort or damage on Pit. (took me 40-45 tries)

2. Ness's down-B (ON RELEASE) --- Not enough movement, Pikachu doesn't move fast enough to re-enter his Thunder.

3. Toon Link's dair (while nearby on stage)
Ok, I didn't think this one through.... Probability: near none

1. Pikachu must land PERFECTLY on the EDGE of the stage and Tink mut be PERFECTLY space as to give the MAXIMUM wind distance, without hitting Pikachu.

I did it like once in 30-35 tries.... the chances of doing this -not- in 1/4 speed, and in a real match are near impractical.

4. Squirtle's Watergun (FINALLY A USE!)
LOL easy. Will work easily 100% of the time, Squirtle charges his Watergun faster then Mario charges FLUDD (I believe) and Squirtle quickly shoots Pikachu back into the matrix thunder.

5. Sheik's second part of up-B

Off to test for you <3 (thank god for 1/4 speed + 2 controllers, eh?)

ps: Only testing wind effects that affect _ not | (aka: not testin G&W uair)


Awesome team AT btw <3

Even though it's banned, Pokemon Stadium 2, Thunder Stage

pokestadium 2 isnt banned everywhere.

Thanks for the input! My bro can toon link normal speed from any nearby position and push me in more than 50% of the time. As for the others, VERY nice finds. I have been also adding melee hitboxes into my experiementation. Seems like DDD ftilt can consistently lag thunder at low heights. Hm.... that opens up more options.

Have fun testing peoples.

Sincerely,
LDPK, a fledgling smashboards'er

Havokk, test Link's boomerang

Xoxo:

I main Link D: how could I have -NOT- thought of that?

.... *this reply box has been opened 10 minutes now* and results are in:

It works if you -tip- it against Pikachu (meaning no obstacles in the way + perfect spacing) which isn't -that- hard if you had a team mate... doing it 1/4 speed on a wiimote+nunchuk and GC controller is difficult for me (getting my joysticks messed up)

It also works if you throw it the other way -weakly- and straight, then jump as it comes past you. (so long as Pikachu is high enough)

You can also Gale-Guard to make Matrix Thunder work slightly below the stage, and further then what I would deem as -safe-

Havokk said:

I main Link D: how could I have -NOT- thought of that?

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i dont know if youre being sarcastic or not, but if you are, and you already DID test the boomerang, then whoops

either way... honestly this AT is pretty hard just to set up, IMO i dont think it will be very useful in a match unless you have a pro Mario/Squirtle/Link as a teamate

why not have TWO pika's and have them both set up thunder walls FTW

xoxokev said:

i dont know if youre being sarcastic or not, but if you are, and you already DID test the boomerang, then whoops

either way... honestly this AT is pretty hard just to set up, IMO i dont think it will be very useful in a match unless you have a pro Mario/Squirtle/Link as a teamate

why not have TWO pika's and have them both set up thunder walls FTW

Click to expand...

It's pretty easy to set up, and I wasn't being sarcastic.... I main Link yet forgot about his Boomerang wind qualities D:

Okay: Got a quick supply of vids coming up in the next 2-3 days depending on my processing speed (converting, trimming, slowing down, touching up).

1. All tethers will overcome the explosion but pikachu (b/c he's invinicble during it) does not get damaged or flinched. Result is no lag and no matrix.

2. DDD's f-tilt deconfirmed to lag thunder. Overcomes thunder, does not lag, pikachu not hurt. SAme applies to most/all melee moves. Exceptions are still being searched for.

3. IC's blizzard has same concept as all melee moves. However, pikachu is hurt because explosion is not lagged and invincibility frames of thunder run out before blizzard's hitbox dissappears.

4. Ness's PK flash deconfirmed to lag thunder. Overcomes thunder, does not lag, pikachu not hurt. Ness's pk fire will lag slightly and the fire column will be out of range unless done at point-blank (what ness is daring enough to do that against thunder?). Pk thunder will also slightly lag thunder.

5. Shiek's projectiles treated same as melee moves.

6. Bowser's/charizard's flames lag thunder quite a lot (less than water tho).

7. All of link's projectiles will briefly lag thunder.

8. All of samus's projectiles will lag thunder. Homing missiles can be staggered for even more lag; super causes more lag than 1 homing missile but less than 2 staggered (it seems). Charge shot shortly lags thunder.

9. Lucus's pk fire will lag pikachu longer than ness's b/c of 2 part hit of pk fire. PK thunder will lag pikachu slightly (only the head counted as a "target").

10. Wario's bike will lag pikachu's every move including low and high aerial thunder and downsmash slightly.

11. Charizard's rock smash will lag but charizard will get hit and knocked away. Squirtle can do water lag. Ivysaur's razor leaf will lag

12. Olimar can "tag" pikachu with 1 pikmin for a short and "definite" thunder matrix lag, and can throw other pikmin with f-b or any non-neut-tilt move that throws pikmin. More lag can be achieved through staggered pikmin: one on pikachu, another thrown at pikachu, and a third is back to Olimar and getting hit by thunder. Olimar can lag aerial thunder by whistling also and getting hit himself.

13. DDD's f-b can lag pikachu and his super armor frames can.

14. Ike's euruption can lag thunder. And both IKE sprite-box and IKE's sword during aether can lag pikachu. But the sword lags thunder too little and pikachu ends up getting hit by the sword a split second later anyway.

15. Deconfirmed Din's fire's ineffectivity--Zelda's Din's fire WILL lag pikachu (with pikachu not getting hurt) with correct timing.

THings to remember:
1. Character sprites, shield, nonexplosive projectiles, destructable stage parts lag thunder for a little bit.
2. Explosive projectiles lag thunder slightly more (I think, need millisecond by millisecond testing)
3. Multihits / staggered projectiles and items lag thunder more depending on how long the chain is.
4. Thunder explosion will outlast the thunder rod if chain is long enough. Maximum length is determined more by how long the chain of targets are rather than the ending of the lightning rod.

At the very least, it is an option in teams battle that can be used by accident resulting in an EPIC fail or victory. The effectiveness of the move being used on purpose depends on skill of Pikachu and the "Assist." Hope that helps with some who are still interested with the move.

More to come:
1. More exceptions (to be discovered...)
2. Character testings (snake's staggered explosions, Rob's top, Wario's fart, etc.)
3. Real combat example footage (me [LDPK] and my bro [Arc]) for singles and doubles using matrix thunder.

Thanks for the help, comments, and feedback!

NOTE* "Matrix" Thunder is the lagging of thunder; NOT the mere "pushing" pikachu back into thunder (Cross Thunder). Gale boomerang does do both.

Sincerely,
LDPK, a fledgling smashboards'er

Judge Judy said:

Additionally, FIHL is short for FLUDD Induced Hit Lag which cause opponent's atks to lag upon hitting the FLUDD.

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this is why flud does it lol

Yea... i posted some stuff on teh mario threads telling them about it too. Its more of a mario tech, but pikachu does have noticable lag when you set up other projectiles and targets. We're working with samus or snake in getting the most hits to lag thunder. But, regardless, out of all the things that FlUDD could lag, i'd say pikachu's thunder is one of the best choices... (^v^)

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, a fledgeling smashboards'er

Try GW's upB, the trampoline sould probably work.

And nice job with all of your new thunder techs Legendary Pikachu, you know way too much about this move >.>

Would Ganon's Up-Tilt do anything? It does have a sort of vacuum effect.

No... it was with the many support of other pikachu's and friends that spawned the creativity of the new moves.