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Formula and Proofs to King Dededes Chain Grab (Finished 12/21/08)

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
The Formula to King Dedede's Chain Grabs

I've been working with Dedede since day one. I'm also a member of the Mages, who have hosted the famous Cataclysms back in melee, and currently working on one for the East Coast Regional Circuit. I've done pretty well at a number of tourneys in CT and MA, lol when I say well, I mean making a profit(Sorry guys, I needed some ethos to throw in there lol. Why else should you guys listen to me xD. Most people look at the join date and number of posts first to determine whether or not the thread is worth reading). And I'm always up to testing if it magnifies my play style and aids me in the process of winning, which feeds my hunger of competition ultimately.

Now this may seem significant to some, and others it may not, but lets try to keep an open mind on this. Damage means everything in this game...even if it's a little bit. 1% can mean the difference between an Up tilt kill...or nearly a kill...but not quite there.

I've done some testing with numerous characters from standing on one edge of FD (yes all the way to the edge for all you critics out there) by rolling towards the edge. Then I lined up different characters right next to Dedede and CGed(dash grabbed) them all the way to the other side. You can get 5 chain grabs off against Rob for example. Now I repeated the process with the CG however I used the SHIELD GRAB CG, which cancels the run. I was able to get 7 grabs off. The down throw does 8.x% damage and diminishes but EVERY percent counts.

Although it may not seem like a lot, keep in mind you can pummel, more so depending on the percents of your opponent. And you always have a dangerous Back throw, probably fresh, stored in Dededes ROBE of ****. :laugh:

The damage may not seem like a lot but lets calculate. Down throw does 8.x% and eventually diminishes down to 3.x% (which you shouldn't worry about because you can always negate with pummels and you won't be grabbing the entire match), 2 more throws = 15-16% more just by doing the standard shield grab CG. Now granted you won't always be at the maximum distance on every stage but its still more damage in the long run.

The equation:

[(sg)(8.x% - 3.x%) - [dg(8.x% - 3.x% ] = The extra damage you've done by using the shielding CG
. sg equals number of shield grabs pulled off, and dg equals the number of dash grabs, throughout the entire match.

Example:

In a three stock match against R.O.B. -

I was able to get two more grabs off than the dashing grab(which was 5 grabs):
[7(8.x% - 3.x%)] - [5(8.x% - 3.x%)] = 11% gain.
NOTE: I took the average of 3 and 8 which is 5.5% to get the damage of the down throw just for this example though. I plugged in the 5.5 for both throws.

The damage will most likely be more due to the diminishing return which I'm working on adding
The damage very well could be 8% for ever down throw if you pummel and attack after the series of chain grabs, but I'll let you guys know in the near future.


Now if you got
(7(5.5%)) - (5(5.5%)) = 44% gain by shield grabbing

I
t very well can be more just by adding one pummel to every grab.

Here's the formula that can be applied:
[SG(8.x% - 3.x%)] - [DG(8.x% - 3.x%)]=% gain by shield grabbing

When:

SG = # of shield grabs pulled off during the entire match (If you did strictly Shield grabs the whole match, remember the amount and plug in to the FORMULA BELOW IN RED
DG = # of dash grabs pulled off during the entire match(If you did strictly dash grabs the whole match, remember the amount and plug in to the FORMULA BELOW IN RED


IMPORTANT: DG = (SG/7G)(5G) <---if you know the amount of shield grabs you did the whole match just plug in how many shield grabs were executed for SG, and the equation will convert DG for you

IMPORTANT: SG = (DG/5G)(7G) <---if you know the amount of dash grabs you did the whole match just plug in how many dash grabs were executed for SG, and the equation will convert SG for you

"7G and 5 G are constants"
7G represents how many shield grabs you can do across Final Destination
5G represents how many dash grabs you can do across Final Destination

* You can only do 7 chain grabs by using shield grabbing across FD and 5 chain grabs using dash grabbing across FD


Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 (although it may be 10 -- best I can tell it's only 9 though) attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength. ( Credit given to Scotu )

Decay Amount
A move has a base damage and Knockback. It then counts the number of times that move is in the attack queue, and has an exponential decay that it applies to the strength. The current formula I have found seems to be pretty accurate:
damage dealt = [94.424e^(-0.0991x)] * (base damage)
where x is the # of times that move is in the attack queue. ( Credit given to Scotu )

(SG/7G) = GN
(DG/5G) = GN
*EACH OF THE ABOVE CAN BE SOLVED BY SIMPLY PLUGGING IN HOW MANY SG or DG CHAIN GRABS EXECUTED


Now if we add pummeling(grab attack) into the equation. We can have P represent each pummel.

Equation with pummeling:

[SG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%)] - (DN)[DG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%] = % gain by shield grabbing

to keep it simple, just have p equal 1. Which means in both CGs you're saying you get 1 pummel per grab.

Now if you know how many DGs and SGs you got off during the entire fight. You can calculate the distance of Final destination you've traveled.

a). 1Dash grab = 7/5 Shield grabs
b). 1 Shield grab = 5/7 Dash grab
*Remember: Because of the slide a dash grab covers more distance than a shield grab

Ex:
You got 9 SGs off and 3 DGs

Step one: convert DGs to SGs (which would be option "a)")

A). DG = (7/5)SG x 3DGs <---- how many dash grabs were executed

divide both sides by DG and they cancel, AND...
you have successfully converted 3DGs to (21/5)SGs or 4.2 SGs, so 4.2 SGs = 3 DGs

now because you have dash grabs in terms of SG just add:
(21/5)SGs + 9SGs = *(21/5)SGs + (45/5)SGs = (66/5)SGs throughout the match!
*{get the common denominator}

Now because we set it in terms of SGs we need to divide by 7, because remember 7 shield grabs will equal the whole length of Final Destination

(66/5)SGs also equals 13.2 SGs

(66/5)SGs/7 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs
13.2 SGs/7 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs

And guess what, we can also do it in terms of dash grabs and we're going to get the same length of Final Destination but it's going to be in terms of DGs. Check it out

You got 9 SGs off and 3 DGs

Step one: convert SGs to DGs (which would be option "b)")

A). SGs = (5/7)DGs x 9SGs <---- how many Shield grabs were executed

divide both sides by SG and they cancel (you don't have to, that just proves how it works)
AND...the RESULT:
you have successfully converted 9SGs to (45/7)DGs or 6.428571429 DGs, so 6.428571429 DGs = 9 SGs

now because you have shield grabs in terms of dash grabs just add:
(45/7)DGs + 3DGs = *(45/7)DGs + (21/7)DGs = (66/7)DGs throughout the match!
*{get the common denominator}

Now because we set it in terms of DGs we need to divide by 5, because remember 5 dash grabs will equal the whole length of Final Destination

(66/7)DGs also equals 9.428571429 DGs We'll use 9.428571429, but it doesn't matter

(66/7)DGs/5 = 1.885714286
9.428571429 DGs/5 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs


So if you know how many DGs and SGs you've done you can use the
Distance Formula:
1DG = (7/5)SGs
1SG = (5/7)DGs

Step one: Pick either SGs or DGs to convert to 'it has to be one or the other'
If you want in terms of SGs it will be DGs = (7/5)SGs x (the number of DGs executed during the match)
DGs = (7/5)SGs x #DGs
DGs/DGs = (7/5)SGs x #
(cancels)
(7/5)SGs(#) + (# of SGs executed during the match) = (#/5)SGs
Finally, take ((#/5)SGs)/(7) = Length of Final Destination in terms of SGs

If you want in terms of DGs it will be SGs = (5/7)DGs x (the number of SGs executed during the match)
SGs = (5/7)DGs x #SGs
SGs/SGs = (5/7)DGs x #
(cancels)
(5/7)DGs(#) + (# of DGs executed during the match) = (#/7)DGs
Finally, take ((#/7)DGs)/(5) = Length of Final Destination in terms of DGs



*Down throw starts at 8.x% and diminishes to 3.x%
[/font]On a side note: it's not wise to pummel until after 50%.

That's just the math behind it all, I hope this helped a bit. If I've made any mistakes, speak up, don't be tentative.

I'm not trying to take credit for discovering his shield grab chain grab. However I am frustratingly, pointing out the obvious and why you Dededes don't use it is beyond me. Laziness isn't an excuse, for the melee veterans out there like me anyway. That game required so much more tech skill and fast finger movements compared to brawl.


Thanks for reading fellas. I hoped the formula and the example helped.

For those who want this thread in a nutshell:
USE SHIELD GRAB INSTEAD OF DASH GRABBING DURING CHAIN GRABS
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
You should get more if your doing it right. You need to make sure you're doing a sheild grab and not a running grab...you can tell the difference after u grab them. you'll slide if you do a dash grab. If u do a sheild grab you won't slide therefore go less distance which yeilds more grabs. And if you mess up, there will be much less lag if u do a running sheild grab.
 

Drecker

Smash Ace
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
526
Location
Culver City
The fact that this requires slightly more skill than rolling your hand across the controller and seeing what happens (Playing Brawl in general) is why people don't do it.
 

Oblivinati

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
22
Location
California
The fact that this requires slightly more skill than rolling your hand across the controller and seeing what happens (Playing Brawl in general) is why people don't do it.
Thank God for melee experience right? I would feel uncomfortable knowing that there was something as simple as this that I wasn't doing to improve my game.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
This has been known for awhile <.<

Except no one does it lolol
What has been known for awhile? What that you can run and shield grab instead of dash grab? Well yeah that falls under the basics. I've been doing it since I got the game, but what I didn't understand was why other people weren't doing it. As for the formula/Proof, i just made, it's really to help people in understanding the pros to the shield grab. As a melee veteran, I need perfection and some type of advanced tactic in my style. I may make a thread about B sticking and reverse B sticking eventually for dedede, considering that may be his only other advanced tactic, despite his HORRIBLE air momentum.

Also if any of you remember, I posted way back in the day, the the waddle dees/doos, and gordos can be angled up/down, and throw further or shorter distances by smashing tilting and rolling the control stick. Presently this is probably common knowledge, and some may just do it on instinct.



Made some adjustments to the formula, and fixed the kinks in the original post
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
9,316
I like this. I'm putting it as a reference in my thread.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
Yea I thot this was known.
clearly it's known to you. That's fantastic. Other people don't know. I'm trying to make a point. That is merely all. Your post was pointless, as it offers nothing to the thread. (except that you know u get more grabs by shield grabbing, and technically calling this thread useless)
 

Excellence

Smash Champion
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
2,137
Location
The Legion of Doom Headquarters
The Formula to King Dedede's Chain Grabs


I've been working with Dedede since day one. I'm also a member of the Mages, who have hosted the famous Cataclysms back in melee, and currently working on one for the East Coast Regional Circuit. I've done pretty well at a number of tourneys in CT and MA, lol when I say well, I mean making a profit(Sorry guys, I needed some ethos to throw in there lol. Why else should you guys listen to me xD. Most people look at the join date and number of posts first to determine whether or not the thread is worth reading). And I'm always up to testing if it magnifies my play style and aids me in the process of winning, which feeds my hunger of competition ultimately.

Now this may seem significant to some, and others it may not, but lets try to keep an open mind on this. Damage means everything in this game...even if it's a little bit. 1% can mean the difference between an Up tilt kill...or nearly a kill...but not quite there.

I've done some testing with numerous characters from standing on one edge of FD (yes all the way to the edge for all you critics out there) by rolling towards the edge. Then I lined up different characters right next to Dedede and CGed(dash grabbed) them all the way to the other side. You can get 5 chain grabs off against Rob for example. Now I repeated the process with the CG however I used the RUNNING SHIELD GRAB CG. I was able to get 6-7 grabs off. Yes..the down throw does 6% damage and diminishes you're saying...EVERY percent counts though.

Remember when I said keep an open mind about this? Well although it may not seem like a lot, keep in mind you can pummel, more so depending on the percents of your opponent. And you always have a dangerous Back throw, probably fresh, stored in Dededes ROBE of ****. :laugh:

The damage may not seem like a lot but lets calculate shall we? Down throw does 8% and eventually diminishes down to 3.x% (which you shouldn't worry about because you can always negate with pummels and you won't be grabbing the entire match), 1-2 more throws = 15-16% more just by doing the standard shield grab CG. Now granted you won't always be at the maximum distance on every stage but its still more damage in the long run.

Back to the equation:

[(sg)(3.x-8%) + p(2.x-3%)] - [5(3.x-8%) + p(2.x-3%) ]= The extra damage you've done by using the shielding CG
. P equals number of pummels and G equals number of shield grabs. Now all you need to do is multiply the Percentage total on the right by the number of full chain grabs you have for the long term extra damage. For example:

In a three stock match against rob I got 4 full chain grabs off by using the shielding grab and pummeled him once during each grab (You may be able to get more depending on the percents). On a side note: it's not wise to pummel until after 50%.

We're going to assume that I was able to get two more grabs then the dashing grab(which was 5 grabs): [7(6%)+7(2.5%)] - [5(6%) + 5(2.5%)] = 18.5% gain.

Now if you got 4 full CGs across FD it would be:
(4 x (7(6%)+7(2.5)) -4x(5(6%)+5(2.5%)) = 68% gain by shield grabbing

I
t very well can be more just by adding one extra pummel.

Here's the formula that can be applied:
{(N)[SG(3.x-8%) + P(2.x-3%)]} - {(N)[DG(3.x-8%) +P(2-3%)]}=% gain by shield grabbing

when SG = # of shield grabs
P = # of pummels
DG = # of dash grabs
x = Decimal percent from diminishing effect (still in testing)
Let N = the number of times you CG across the stage



Down throw starts at 8% and diminishes to 3.x%


That's just the math behind it all, I hope this helped a bit. If I've made any mistakes, speak up, don't be tentative.

I'm not trying to take credit for discovering his shield grab chain grab. However I am frustratingly, pointing out the obvious and why you Dededes don't use it is beyond me. Laziness isn't an excuse, for the melee veterans out there anyway. That game required so much more tech skill and fast finger movements than brawl.


Thanks for reading fellas. I hoped the formula and the example helped.

For those who want this thread in a nutshell?
USE SHIELD GRAB INSTEAD OF DASH GRABBING DURING CHAIN GRABS
*Bursts into flames.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
Me and Omegablackmage are working on move decay right now. It's really difficult to explain, like you do d3s down throw 12 times. Heres the damage done:
8%
7%
6%
5%
5%
4%
4%
4%
and then 3% repeating. But we're trying to get a function with the data we collected. Still in testing but aside from the formula, once we know the move decay proportion I'll post that. It's pain in the *** because of invisible decimals >,>
 

Aeropup

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
93
I'm liking this thread. It leaves me kinda baffled as to why people still use running grabs just because they're easier. I try to do the shieldgrab version, but I don't have the shielding part down as well as I'd like to yet.

Hey Buuman, could you link me to that waddle dee thread you made plz?
 

cutter

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
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Location
Getting drilled by AWPers
It's not very often someone uses math to prove their point.

I don't play as DDD that much but this was an absolutely amazing post to show why exactly shieldgrabbing > dashgrabbing. Then again, I'm a bit of a mathlete XD
 

PinkPwnageFrenzy

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Bowie, MD
NNID
PinkPwnageFrenzy
Yeah you made a mistake. It's well thought out and uses logical thinking. You know we look down on that kind of stuff.

I apologize for not actually reading the math formulas, but you said to actually use shield grabs, so that's all that matters, really. Did you/are you planning to incorporate adding a hit or two during grabs? That adds a whole lot more damage when added all together. As you said, every little bit counts.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
Yeah you made a mistake. It's well thought out and uses logical thinking. You know we look down on that kind of stuff.

I apologize for not actually reading the math formulas, but you said to actually use shield grabs, so that's all that matters, really. Did you/are you planning to incorporate adding a hit or two during grabs? That adds a whole lot more damage when added all together. As you said, every little bit counts.
Pummeling is in the formula champ lol
 

PinkPwnageFrenzy

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PinkPwnageFrenzy
Alright, I'm sorry I didn't actually read it, I'll be sure to read it when I'm well rested, hopefully it'll make more sense. Thanks for putting forth the effort.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
Alright, I'm sorry I didn't actually read it, I'll be sure to read it when I'm well rested, hopefully it'll make more sense. Thanks for putting forth the effort.
no problem, but the pummeling is a difficult variable because depending on the percent you can get a lot of pummels or next to none

"Equation with pummeling:

[SG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%)] - (DN)[DG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%] = % gain by shield grabbing

to keep it simple, just have p equal 1. Which means in both CGs you're saying you get 1 pummel per grab."
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
This really just is to show the extra damage u can build up over time just by shield grabbing. I know of the CG thread lol. I should have rephrased the way I reacted
 

GreenFox

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
663
Would you ever use the shield grab why'll running over the dashing grab even know you get less range is it effective?
 

Commander_Beef

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Messages
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Location
Redondo Beach, California
Wow seriously Green Fox...
You bumped the original Question/Answer thread with a dumb question..assuming that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

You create a new thread with that weird question, ASSUMING that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

And now you bump ANOTHER thread with ANOTHER QUESTION, ASSUMING that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

And on top of that, your question doesn't make any grammatical sense what-so-ever.

You're d*** oblivious or just plain stupid -_-. All of this has just gotten on my nerves, I don't know about the rest of us here.
 

GreenFox

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
663
Wow seriously Green Fox...
You bumped the original Question/Answer thread with a dumb question..assuming that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

New to boards, hadn't read the rules I have now (There is alot of them It's hard complying to your ocd rules of posting

You create a new thread with that weird question, ASSUMING that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

New to boards, hadn't read the rules I have now (There is alot of them)

And now you bump ANOTHER thread with ANOTHER QUESTION, ASSUMING that you know that there's a question/answer thread that was stickied.

Isn't the point of a forum to discuss? why would I go to the Q&A thread if my question is exactly related to what the op posted about

And on top of that, your question doesn't make any grammatical sense what-so-ever.

This isnt english class I'm not trying to be 100% accurate atleast you can read what Im saying I have to squint my eyes to read your small text

You're d*** oblivious or just plain stupid -_-. All of this has just gotten on my nerves, I don't know about the rest of us here.

If a complete stranger that has never said anything to you on the internet is getting on your nerves you might want to get checked out and please don't cuss to me, Its very rude

And now im probally gonna have to hear more from you for posting again if you dont want me to "bump it" then lock it.
 

GreenFox

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
663
Computer is messing up it froze causing it to double post.

Yes I messed up again add that to your list
 
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