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Lucas Stage Counterpick disscussion: Discusion #9: Toon Link & Zelda/Sheik

ZMan

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Pay attention to my threads, people. :crying:

As a sort of add-on to Balckbelt's Weekly Lucas Matchup discussion thread, we will be discusing what stages to ban and counter pick for each character you might encounter in a tournament. No banned stages, please.

:metaknight:Character 1: Meta-****ing-knight
Ban:
Luigi's Mansion- WHORENADO ALL DAY EVERYDAY *****
Rainbow Cruise-If Weegee's Mansion is banned or you absolutley LOVE being Tornadoed all match, or your name is Marceux, then ban Rainbow Cruise. MK's mobility and priority out do you here so try to avoid this one mmkay?


Counter-pick:
Brinstar, Onett, Corneria, and Old Yoshi Island-MK's effectiveness in gimping and survivabilty here a bit toned down due to close blast-zones. Onett has walk-offs, so try to B-throw camp when you can.
Mario Circuit Though it's usally banned, MK can't get gimps off, at all. So try to camp and Bthrow when he gets near you. Or just move to Italy, NM, or Idaho. You'll avoid the matchup entirely. :psycho:


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Seeing as how Luigi's Mansion and Rainbow Cruise are both banned; it's up too you on how to spend your one ban. I recommend banning Halberd, but that's only off of personal experience with the stage.


Counter-pick:
Uhhhhh, Brinstar, I guess.


:snake:Character 2: Solid Snake
Ban:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi Island- Snake controls the 4 neutrals WAY to good. I personally recomend banning Yoshi Island becuase the Whimsical Support Ghost can gimp your PK Thunder and the design of the main platform can hinder you PK Fire and Thunder.


Counter-pick:
Norfair-Snake has a hard time controling the stage due to the lava forcing him to move. op of that the stage lean towards air combat where Lucas can beat out Snake at Plus your rope snake can help manuver around the stage fairly easy and you can control platforms with your Utilt.
Rainbow Cruise-Snake will have a hard time trying to manuver around this stage while Lucas can move around as easily as can be.
Jungle Japes- Might be a good WTF counterpick in a tournament; Snake gets outcamped here and his utilt can't be used as a realible kill move here. I wouldn't rely on this stage though.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
See above.


Counter-pick:
Uhhh, Delfino Plaza has worked for me in the past, can't be that good for him.


:dedede:Character 3: King Dedede
Ban:
Corneria and Green Greens due to the ***got wall infinite. Ban Final Destination if either Corneria/Green Greens is banned or the wall infinte is banned.


Counterpick:
Norfair- DDD can't CG on this stage and he is severly outmanuverd by Lucas on this stage. Brinstar does the same thing ncely too.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Final Destination because chain grabbing is way to easy here for him.


Counter-pick:
Brinstar for the reasons listed above. If your feelin' frisky, try out Delfino or Halberd out for a spin.

:gw:Character 4: Mr. Game and Watch
Ban:
While Battlefield might be bad, Rainbow Cruise is just unfair. Too much air priority for GW here means Lucas is gonna have a tough time here.


Counterpick:
Pick Brinstar and hope for the best.


Umbreons rule set:
Ban:
Battlefield that's all you need to know.


Counter-pick:
Once again, Brinstar is you're only hope here. Really just pick Marth or DK and have the advantage over him, little *******.


:falco:Character 5: Falco
Ban:
Jungle Japes, it's a prerequiste when facing Falco. If you are fighting a certain NM player, ban Final Destination.


Counter-pick:
Norfair and Brinstar are good choices. Personaly, I like Pictochat.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Final Destination, his chain becomes too good here.


Counter-pick:
Brinstar. We need to find some new counter picks. Let's try out Lylat Cruise for a change!


:rob:Character 6: R.O.B the Robot
Ban:
Halberd, his recovery is stupid here.


Counter-pick
Norfair or Pirate Ship., Maybe Distant Planet; I just really want to see someone counter pick it in a tournament.


Umbreon's rule set:
Counter-pick:
See above.


Counter-pick:


:marth:Character 7: Marth
Ban:
Battlefield (and platfromy stages in general) cause he controls them platforms like fat girl on a skinny dude.


Counter-pick:
Norfair,Brinstar, and Rainbow Cruise-are good against this donkey porker. He can't wreck you as hard on these stages due to your high mobility and PK fire gayness.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
See above, I'm too lazy right now.


Counter-pick:
Brinstar, maybe Frigate Orpheon because his recovery isn't the best and he has to rely on ledges to get to the stage.


:wario: Character 8: Wario
Ban:
He does good on a lot of stages (after all, he's the only fat pixie in fighting games) but Frigate Orpheon, Pirate Ship, andBattlefield are his best stage due to his high mobility and amazing recovery.


Counter-pick:
Wario is such a versitle character he does well on pretty much any stage. Just go to Norfair (it's been linked to enough already, just go find it) and have some fun.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
See above. I should stop being a lazy bastage my entire life and actually type something good here, but I won't


Counter-pick:
See above. Like I said, I'm a lazy bastage.


:lucario: Character 9: Lucario
Ban:
Luigi's Mansion- because the techability and Hyrule Temple qualities make him live longer here making Lucario dangerous then again I hate this stage). Yoshi Island for striking because you should.


Counter pick:
Anything with small blast zones. Green Greens, Corneria, and Brinstar jump into mind.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Yoshi Island


Counter pick:
Brinstar


:dk2: Character 10: Donkey Kong
Ban:
Battlefield, Japes, or Luigi's Mansion. The ape seems to like these stages.


Counter pick:
Norfair, duh. For some reason I like Pictochat against him, dun know why.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Battlefield (lazy today).


Counter pick:
Whatever, Brinstar.


:diddy:Character 11: Diddy Kong
Ban:
Final Destination **** bananas.


Counter pick:
Anything with real whacked out terrain to mess his banana game up, Brinstar, Norfair, Pictochat, and Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 come to mind.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Final Destination once again **** bananas.


Counter pick:
Brinstar and Pokemon Staduim 1 to mess his banana game up.


:pikachu2:Character 12: Pikachu
Ban:
Final Destination is a good stage to ban.


Counter pick:
Delfino, he might think it's good for him, but it's better for us. If your feelin' frisky, try Luigi's Mansion out for a spin


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
FD


Counter pick:
Delfino Plaza


:popo: Character 13: Ice Climber
Ban:
Avoid the neutrals and your good to go


Counter pick:
Anything that's moving alot, Port Town, Pokemon Stadium 2, Brinstar, Norfair, ect.


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
Final Destination, Battlefield, and Smashville should be avoided.


Counter pick:
Brinstar


:kirby2:Character 14: Kirby
Ban:
Kirby is such a versitile character that you need to ban and cp what you feel safe on


Counter pick:
Green Greens! He so light so you'll kill him early


Umbreon's rule set:
Ban:
See above


Counter pick:
Delfino, Demised baned this against me back at MAST so it can't be too good for him.


:pit:Character 15: Pit
Admiral Pit summed up everything better than I ever would.

:wolf:Character 16: Wolf
Ban:
FD, i hate that stage.


Counter pick:
nofair is better for us htan it is for him, so he'll cp it against us and get **** on. ps1 cause of the ****ed up ledges


:olimar: Charcter 17: Captain Lolimar
Ban:
Luigi's masnion, his ground game is too good. norfair cause he recovers easirer on there


Counter pick:[/
Frigate, Delfino, Brinstar, anything to **** up his camping and/or recovery. if he's in a bad mood, good to !


:toonlink:Character 18: Toon Link

:zelda::shiek:Characters 19 & 20: Zelda/Sheik
 

prOAPC

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yesterday, i CP brinstar vs MK and i sucked :p. It was my first time in that stage, i choose it because some people say that is a good stage for Lucas. I usually use Halberd as a counterpick. I move smothly in this stage MK can't use the wall for recovery.
vs Snake, i choose Norfair, his dash cancel is not that useful there. Or sometimes Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege, because when the stage change, his mines and C4 disappear.
 

Blackbelt

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Norfair and Rainbow Cruise are both awesome against Snake, as they make camping difficult, and they constatly force him into the air, where he is vulnerable.


Don't know which stages rock against MK.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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norfair and rainbow cruise as blackbelt stated

norfair- mortarslide is pretty much useless. rising lava will force him into the air. extremely hard for him to control the entire stage. only problem here is when he gets close, which i advise you shouldn't let happen.

Rainbow cruise - snakes worst stage lol.

not exactly sure what to ban though.
Brinstar is a pretty good stage for the both of us.
 

Blackbelt

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Oh yeah, stages to ban:


Snake: Final Destination and Smashville. Both of them are nice and flat, allowing for optimum Snake camping, and Smashville even has the moving platform which Snake can C4 or mine, allwing for a mobile explosive. Fun.
 

Saki Zatoichi

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Honestly, most of the neutrals are win for Snake. You could try Battlefield, but a smart Snake will always take care of those platforms. Rainbow Cruise limis Snake so much, it doesn't who you are. You still have the better chance against that Snake.

But I don't know how Lucas is on Rainbow Cruise. I'm sure his lightweight and odd-jumping makes it easy to get around the place.

So Rainbow Cruise is definitely a place a Lucas should consider taking a Snake to in a set.

Norfair is another good option because Lucas has a tether recovery, which makes it easier to get around. (This also applies to Sheik and Olimar) and it forces the Snake to move around a bit. (And we all know camping is Snake's best advantage).

Jungle Japes is an okay choice for Lucas. It limits Snake again because of the extremely small, divided platforms. But really, this stage sucks for everyone IMO.

Pokemon Stadium(s) are two other CPs for Snake because there are too many obstacles in the way that make it hard for Snake to get around.


 

Blackbelt

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Honestly, most of the neutrals are win for Snake. You could try Battlefield, but a smart Snake will always take care of those platforms. Rainbow Cruise limis Snake so much, it doesn't who you are. You still have the better chance against that Snake.

But I don't know how Lucas is on Rainbow Cruise. I'm sure his lightweight and odd-jumping makes it easy to get around the place.

So Rainbow Cruise is definitely a place a Lucas should consider taking a Snake to in a set.

Norfair is another good option because Lucas has a tether recovery, which makes it easier to get around. (This also applies to Sheik and Olimar) and it forces the Snake to move around a bit. (And we all know camping is Snake's best advantage).

Jungle Japes is an okay choice for Lucas. It limits Snake again because of the extremely small, divided platforms. But really, this stage sucks for everyone IMO.

Pokemon Stadium(s) are two other CPs for Snake because there are too many obstacles in the way that make it hard for Snake to get around.


Lucas has enough tools to comfortably travel Rainbow Cruise, but he doesn't have anything that can allow him to abuse it.

Norfair is awesome, as already stated.

Actually, Japes would also shut down Snake's UTilt as a kill move, due to the ridiculous ceiling. That should also be considered.

Don't have any PS experience against Snake.
 

Veril

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Oh yeah, stages to ban:


Snake: Final Destination and Smashville. Both of them are nice and flat, allowing for optimum Snake camping, and Smashville even has the moving platform which Snake can C4 or mine, allwing for a mobile explosive. Fun.
That... I lost to a Snake player yesterday largely because they made good use of the platform on Smashville.
 

ZMan

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So for Snake ban one of the neutrals. I recommend banning Yoshi Island cause of that cockblocking whimsical support ghost. :mad: I kind of recommend banning Halberd after what happend to me at the supercon (3 stocked on Halberd FTL)

Counterpick, go for either Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, or Japes.

Now what about MK? I can't give too much input due to MK being banned in NM.
 

Blackbelt

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MK: The majority of MK kills come from efefctive recovery gimping, and his lastability comes from superior recovery. Thus, it is stages with painfully close blastzones (Brinstar, Corneria, Yoshi's Island Melee) or a general lack of an offstage area (Mario Circuit, Onett) that are preferable.

Stage to avoid: Rainbow Cruise. I mean, alot of stages are bad against MK, but Rainbow Cruise is especially bad.
 

ZMan

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The problem with Onett and Mario Circuit is that they're usally banned due to DDD and some other characters being very gay. Same wit Corneria.

If there is nothing to add to MK and Snake I'll move on to DDD and Gay and Watch,
 

Blackbelt

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The problem with Onett and Mario Circuit is that they're usally banned due to DDD and some other characters being very gay. Same wit Corneria.

If there is nothing to add to MK and Snake I'll move on to DDD and Gay and Watch,
One last thing: Apparently, MK owns on Luigi's Mansion, so avoid that like the plague.
 

Levitas

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nairs string much better than normal, range games work well, although it's much more of a novelty because nobody knows what lucas can do there.

however, he doesn't compete with the mach tornado.
 

ZMan

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I don't have to deal with the Whorenado cause NM banned MK :p

Also, I'm thinking of putting Halberd and Brinstar under ban for Snake. Those blastzones on Halberd are WAY to small, and it's cramped overall. Same with Brinstar. And we all know how much reach Snake has. Mother ****er.
 

Levitas

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note that close blastzones usually actually help lucas's recovery. They quicken the PKT recovery and lower its angle slightly (natural angle - the fastest/most direct angle.)
 

ZMan

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Levitas- That might be true but I don't like dieing even earlier from a Snake Utilt on Halberd.

S.D- Any respectible tournament host will have Shadow Moses Island under ban. Sorry but I'm only including stages allowed in tournament play.

Also, word on the streets is that Snake doesn't do so hot on Jungle Japes.

EDIT: If there's nothing new by Friday/late tomorrow I will move on to DDD and GAW.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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japes isn't that good for snake, because alot of characters can camp him instead of him camping them. along with the ridiculously high ceiling for making utilt kils much harder. He can't really mortar slide approach except the middle platform. if the character has a good enough projectile they can work off the side platforms. the one thing snake can do well is control the stage well enough to force you to be on a certain platform.
 

ZMan

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On top of that Japes is good against a certain NM player.

So ummmmm, I'm going to move on to GAW and DDD unless someone wants to throw something out there.

Vs. DDD:
Ban: Corneria- Wall= infinite

CP: Brinstar

Vs. GAW

ummmm,........
 

~Pink Fresh~

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D3- i usually CP brinstar or norfair
if corneria is allowed in the tournament ban it
i ban... FD lol
either that or halberd
i think japes may make a good CP, but i'm not too sure how lucas does on that stage.
lylat messes up his CG so that's a plus.

G&W - BAN RAINBOW CRUISE
CP...
wtf do you counterpick against him?
 

Blackbelt

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Ban Greens Greens against D3. Wall infinites, plus he can really abuse his range here.




I have no idea what stage to CP against G&W
 

~Pink Fresh~

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just got back from the G&W boards. lol
you should also ban corneria.
CP brinstar.


EDIT: you have to start over. The SBR just released new rules. alot of stages have been taken away.
 

Blackbelt

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my rule list is a challenge to the original, on the basis that people will choose my better list to make that the official list.

The new smashboards owner from MLG went into the SBR and told us that our rule list sucked, and most people didn't want to fix it. So I did.

I had help from some SBR members too, just not the majority as it usually goes down.
Pardon the doublepost, but it's an explanation for Umbreon's rule set.


I disagree with Umbreon's
 

Blackbelt

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It seems pretty good other than the stage list is WHACK. Norfair, Picto, and Japes are banned. Those are my CPs ._.

:cry: :cry: :crying:
Yeah, that's the main problem I have.


The stage list, I believe, needs work.



Pinkfresh: The official one, of course.
 

Marceux

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I don't think Luigi's is a bad stage to fight meta against. #1, you can outcamp the guy by tossing PK Fire's onto the pillars and that'll keep him from using the tornado. His U+B is a vulnerability with some of the cieling walls, and you can also use the pillars to your benefit by using your Up-Smash on the very fringes of the bottom pillar when ledge camping, or using the Down-Smash to stop him from chasing you, even with the tornado. Meta Knights actually ban Luigi's against me. @_@
 
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