Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

Majora_younglink · Nov 8, 2008

So who is this fine specimen this discussion revolves around?

It is Captain Falcon considered to be one of the worst if not the worst character in SSBB.

So lets get this out of the way, we all know that Captain Falcon has some pretty bad matchups against the whole cast but how bad are they exactly? Well this is a hard answer to find to be honest because most people who make matchups don't really know a good Captain Falcon player or look at the character and go "lol craptain falcon, our character wins" when writing it up which really doesn't help us understand the true matchup to be honest. In hope of getting informed Captain Falcon matchup discussions going on, this thread is being created.

Two characters will be up for discussion over their matchup with the Captain for 1 weeks time, at the end of the week a final verdict of the matchup shall be given based on what is deemed correct.

Week 16:

Yoshi

Okay, a matchup you might not have faced a lot earlier in Brawl's release but one you should definitely get used to with Yoshi's rise in tiers due to his ratio with MK and some of the other high tier charies. Now, the main thing he's got on most charies is his cg and Captain Falcon is no different in this fact. He has a clear advantage in priority, camping, and he can easily rack up some damage on you if your not careful. A few things that we do have is higher weight and on some level an easier time gimping and recovering.

Sonic

Now this is a matchup you may or may not face lot depending on a lot of factors, particularly the people in your areas. Sonic is by far not the easiest of matches but really it's one of C Falcon's better matches. Sonic is lighter than C Falcon, has a harder time koing, and for the most part relies on gimping to get KOs. He does however rack dmg fairly easy, has a better recovery vertically, and has higher priority tan C Falcon. Not that bad but really not good either, really it's more about player skill and experience in this matchup more than anything.

So discuss.

Current Matchups:

Thanks goes to Mmac for providing it.

I try to keep this as unbiased as possible but if you disagree with a match up or the thread in general feel free to pm me.

Let this be said. I do NOT support everything in what each and every one of the summaries say but I feel they exemplify enough knowledge to be shown.

Previous good summaries of MK:

F5Hazardousdoc said:
Well, I'll kick off the metaknight one k?

C falcon vs MK

Range goes to MK
Speed goes to MK
KO Ability goes to MK
Priority goes to MK
Move chaining goes to MK

Metaknight is the nightmare matchup for EVERY character in the game, and Capt Falcon is not immune. Metaknight's range, usually his only downside against some other characters, is about twice as large as Capt Falcon's embarrassing range. Metaknight can use, abuse, and overuse every trick in his book against Falcon. Just take everything you've heard in horror stories about losing to MK, and multiply it by 2. Thats how painful this matchup is.

Now, for our hope. Falcon kick. Use it. Love it. Marry it *not really*. It cuts through the dreaded mach tornado, making it falcon's only light in this hopeless fight. Metaknight is very light, meaning that Capt Falcon's slightly below average killing power gets a boost, and falcon dive's grabbing properties can let you grab priority your way through that nasty shuttle loop. In this match, you want to jab metaknight as much as you can, and aim for the earliest possible KO. Use Fsmash over Dsmash, and make sure to pivot boost it.

Since MK is in the air alot, knee's aren't out of the question, but beware, Metaknights fair cuts through all CF's moves, meaning chasing throws is out of the question. Instead of chasing throws, try to provoke a fair, then jump in with a knee or uair. You can also dash dance into a grab if you're feeling confident. Metaknight is a fast character, few in the cast are faster, so you can easily use your superior running speed to throw him off and get a free dash attack or throw in on a whiffed dash attack. Should you miss a grab or dash attack, JAB. Don't try to run, you'll only get whacked with the tip of dsmash or fair.

Beware of Fair. There is no answer in falcon's book for fairs, you simply run or get hit. Try timing a falcon kick on an improperly spaced fair, or you could even jump over him and airdodge, then control back towards him for a bair. Make use of the first kick of nair > ground cancelling it into a jab, or grab, or even utilt. Utilt is such a high priority move, it can clank with a few of MK's moves *I've had it clank with the tornado startup before*, in addition to its high knockback and the built in delay that can fake out sidesteppers or powershielders.

Falcon punch. If you see an opening, and can land a fiery fist of justice into Metaknight's evil top tier body, expect a VERY early KO. Mindgame this reversing it off a ledgehop, chasing a tech, or even edgeguarding. Just as with the falcon punch, landing the knee will be a godsend in KOing MK early, and its not as hard to land due to MK's consistant aerial acrobatics. Try predicting a shuttle loop, then striking a knee right at the point where MK comes to and starts gliding.

This matchup is a nightmare, and there isn't much hope. Give it your all, and prove Falcon's worthiness!

Final verdict: Capt Falcon vs. MetaKnight:
Falcon is at a major disadvantage, 10:90

Tidycats29 said:
i'll try to sum up a little from my experience with falcon against a few good metas i've faced

I'll go in basics
DON'T FOR GODS SAKE TRY TO FIGHT META IN AIR
it's almost hopeless
your only good move in air is up-b to get out of tornado
and U-air

stay on ground at all costs
if a meta tries to shuttle loop you
you shield it and use up-b and you'll grab him
it works very well

use Falcon kick wisely
as it seems to be a very effective move against meta in ground
punish meta if he makes a mistake with an EPIC knee
o and the epic knee sweetspot is bigger if you hit meta on his back

if you manage to grab meta
down throw him and try to hit a knee afterwards
timing is key obviously but it does work

How to grab meta up close?
usually a jab and then grab works well
falcons jab is the only thing that's been buffed

ur main weapons on ground is
u-tilt and jab and grab
down smash is probably your best smash
so use it when you believe it will hit

yeah i see this match up 7:3 meta anyway

Previous good summaries of Olimar:

Majora_younglink said:
I'll start off discussion of Olimar though since I've actually had some experience with some awesome Olimar players. For the most part you're approaching is ****ed. Also, his grab game is ridiculously good on C Falcon since all of his moves require him to be in close proximity of his opponent. Also Red Pikmin are immune to most of your B moves. In the air you have a slight advantage over him or about even I'd say and he's not the hardest character in the game to a edgeguard due to the nature of his UpB. I'm fairly sure he has more priority than you but his range of his attacks are less than yours. He's fairly light and easy to KO at higher percents which is good since you'll be taking a lot of dmg from just his pikmin alone. Still you're at a big disadvantage. I'd venture to say a tentative... 80:20?

Ville said:
Olimar:
I actually don't think that this matchup is so awful for falcon, you simply try to approach from the air with either Uair or Bair.
Fighting on the ground is kinda pointless because he can grab you out of every move or hit you with a smash.
The easiest way to kill Olimar is gimping, try to grab or Utilt him near the ledge and **** him with Bair/Uair/Knee. Once you got him of the stage and he's not able to get back with his 2nd jump Olimar is pretty much dead, because he can't sweetspot the ledge with UpB when theres somebody else on the edge.
Ratio 35:65

Roager said:
Olimar:
Falcon is not good at approaching
Oli is very good at killing approaches, between grabs, pikmin toss, and smashes. I call him a walking brick.

If Falcon manages to get through the wall of pikminz, there's a chance he could get some hits in, and maybe even get some gimps in. Oli is weak to gimping, and Falcon is (fairly) good at gimping.

Basically, the more defensive the Olimar plays, the worse off Falcon is. Considering the fact that Olimar mains tend to lean towards defense (in my experience), this is not good.

30/70 Oli's favor. I guess. I don't really know. Ratio could move around a bit, but regardless, Oli's got a serious advantage.

Previous good summaries of Gannondorf:

hyperstation said:
The only Falcon I've ever had a tough time against was a freaking brute. The reason he was so good though was just because he out-spaced me PERFECTLY. The fact that Falcon is way faster and has more lateral aerial movement isn't necessarily a huge advantage inherently. What it allows you, however, is to tune your spacing more quickly and accurately than Ganon. Ganon's and the Captain's success in competitive play relies on out-spacing your opponent and making good on opportunities to attack when they present themselves. What I found against this Falcon was that since he was literally perfectly out-spacing me consistently, he was able to predict with which move I would try to engage him with based on the spacing he allowed me. Rule the spacing game, control the pacing, win the game. This mantra fits likewise for Ganon.

Herein lies a problem I almost always face when interjecting into match-up discussions, however. This guy I faced was, by all accounts, a freak. He was miles ahead of any other Falcon I've ever played, and the rest aren't all scrubs. This isn't to say that some of your CF mains couldn't give my Ganon a good run for his money but rather that I'm always confused as to how to assess an "anomaly" like this in trying to form an objective opinion about a match-up. For reasons listed above, I'd say Ganon has the advantage in this match-up, but only by a slim margin. If the CF player puts a premium on perfectly spacing, that advantage changes drastically in Falcon's favor. I might call it 50:50 or 60:40 either way, really, depending on how we want to account for this high level of play which isn't exactly the status quo.

A2ZOMG said:
Ganon vs Falcon is either even or slightly in Ganon's favor. I use both chars btw.

CF has N-air approach on Ganon which can be pretty hard to punish, and more distance on his recovery, meaning he can chase offstage further away for some edgeguards. Jab also is faster than all of Ganon's attacks, which can be annoying to deal with.

Ganon has a superior out of shield game, a way better combo game, and better range, priority, and KO moves in general.

Make of that what you will.

Ray_Kalm said:
Ganon has a slight disadvantage here. I play a Captain Falcon, everyday, just to put that in there.

Let me start by Cf's b-air. Not only is it faster, it's also less laggier then Ganon's b-air, not punishable by Ganon unless the Cf fails on retreating after, in one scenario, hitting our shield, in another scenario, missing us. Even with that, the power on it is about the same as ours. The Cf I fight found this out and makes a b-air approach freely every so often.

Cf's the second fastest character in the game, while we're the second slowest. Giving Captain Falcon tons of more approach options then Ganondorf. Cf's has more aerial speed, could fall faster (by a bit), and has good defense.

Both of them rely on punishing, Ganon has betters options to though.

Cf's Jab has awesome priority and speed, with possible combo's on us Ganons. Up-tilting while we're recovering from the edge really mess us up, sets us up for off stage edge guarding.

Your recovery has more length then ours and comes out faster, or goes faster whatever you want to call it. It also has a explode effect which could Ko us when we're hugging.

Tipman isn't useful against Cfs at all. For example, if we try to tip man you off stage and if we manage to do it this you'll obviously try to recover, and so will we. Now, Cf has a faster and better Up B then us, with the same movement as ours. So we'll most likely get caught in it knocked out by the blow effect..

Falcon Punch, is actually usable.

I'd say 60-40 in Captain Falcon's favour.

adumbrodeus] Ganondorf: This match-up seems very even at first said:
Bowser has atleast a 55/45 advantage simply due to his ability to block both our approach vectors. Bowser mains play him like a fortress, they aren't going to leave themselves open to attack blindly. They're going to counter our approach and punish, and the amount of damage an edge guard flamebreath racks up can change a stock entirely.

Bowser is a different beast. I'd personally recommend Nair through the shields and reverse Falcon Dive after you land behind him to get him to play more aggressive, then punish with speed. The reason I give him the advantage is you have to remain dilligent the entire fight, while bowser simply needs a couple opportunities to turn the tide in his favor.

Noodlehead said:
Bowser
You should always stay off the platforms when playing against a Bowser. The knee and dair is easier to pull off on him compared to other characters. His fire breath and fortress makes him harder to fight though.

LinIsKorean said:
Bowser : Being a former Bowser main, I can actually give some decent advice here. Bowser will attempt to get Fire Breath off whenever he can, so you have to be extremely cautious, cause that sucker racks up damage fast. Bowser is another character that tends to play defensively, so watching for UpB OoS is important. Using Falcon's aerials will be important, especially his UAir, because Bowser's FAir will outprioritize most of Falcon's aerials. Using Falcon Dive and Raptor Boost as approaches will help, simply because Bowser is big and slow. Bowser is a beast, his FSmash (GIMPYFISH COMBO!) will have you KOed early on if you're not careful. SH knees can be your saviour. I'd say this one is 50:50, Bowser tends to do poorly against faster characters.

Both characters are large, so use your knee and DAir effectively.

Well, that's about it, hope it was of some use.

Previous good summaries on Snake:

Noodlehead said:
use your counterpicks

snake
snake owns at battefield. his mines,and c4s hit both sides. his range will destroy you ,if your on the platforms. jabs will make his foward b go right above you. also try to sweetspot your knee on his recovery that is all for snake.

Lareit said:
As for snake.

As a former snake main this is 75/25. Snake's tilts destroy falcon hard and shield nading even prevents grabs(Falcon is one of the few chrs that grabing snake sets off the grenade even before he throws him) Camping snake till he either approaches or stops spamming his various explosives are your only option.

After that it's just a matter of keeping him off him reeling and punishing his recovery, snakes two weaknesses.

Wogrim said:
Snake is somewhat similar. You need to powershield his tilts or else you're going to have a lot of trouble punishing him. Grenade counter isn't as much of a problem if you watch for it. You can basically guarantee he's going to roll away from you if you bait a grenade drop, which means you can corner him and he'll have to make a real move, which generally means you can beat him with a shield. If he's still trying to play defensively, a nicely spaced DSmash will give him trouble unless he jumps (short delay in case he spotdodges/rolls), but he usually will avoid jumping because his aerials have huge lag. If he shields it the shield pushback will push him off onto the ledge, from which his options aren't too good. The most important thing is probably to generally keep your spacing out of the first hit of FTilt. He won't airdodge off his up-B until he's high enough to make it to the stage/ledge, so that's a good time to gimp him hard. Otherwise always anticipate the airdodge and punish him after it. About 35-65 at worst as long as you take your time and space. His jab and UTilt will wreck you if you approach carelessly; it's a lot better to punish. Also his DSmash isn't too useful so rolling to avoid moves works pretty well.

F5Hazardousdoc said:
Jab cancel on snake is godlike. Seriously. Ftilt locks are rare, but not unheard of. I'd watch out on ftilt mindgames, high level snakes have a tendency to simply toss out the first hit and go for a grab if shielded. They can punish spot dodgers BIGTIME this way. Nade counters are hardcore against close range only fighters, falcon's no exception.

Watch out for dtilt, snake's goes prone for the move, letting him dodge and attack simultaneously. I don't understand why everyone says DAC is so easy to punish... if missed, the mortar will cover snake's tracks. The snake WON'T BE APPROACHING much, so you won't be seeing it as a long range approach.

Snake's nair > The knee of justice, I'd watch out approaching from the air because of fullhop nair, RAR bair, shield grab to dthrow mindgames, or simply the BOOT OF DOOM *utilt*

Do keep in mind, Uair ***** all but bair, try to juggle snake, since his falling aerial game is weak, barring well spaced nairs and dairs, you'll only be seeing bair. Almost all snake's recover high, using falcon dive as an edgeguard is a good idea, due to its abnormal vertical hitbox. Nipple spike and Knee a low recovery, but watch out for a Fair boost from snake, as fair gives a small boost in height if used right off of dbl jump. I've spiked lots of guys and gotten a free recovery thanks to that little trick.

Edit: So basically, this is a match where you have to watch your feet, and make sure you don't commit to a move that you're unsure of. Be cautious of where you move, and don't fall for nade counters. Falcon kick is a good approach, but you really need to mix it up because falcon kick can get nade countered easily. Raptor boost is a NO move, you'll eat a tilt. Keep snake in the air, and you'll do well.

Previous good summaries on Falco:

Noodlehead said:
use your counterpicks
falco
if you cp at bf, never EVER get grabbed at low percentages, it will cause you a whole stock. i'd say approach him using aerials, SHADing might work effectively for dodging lasers. if you approach on the ground, he/she will probably down B. he could just laser spam you too, if you approah on the ground. the easiest way to kill him is gimping, its fairly easy to gimp his upB, just do a ledge dropped knee. oh yeah and his hyphen smash is rediculous.

Wogrim said:
Falco's not as bad as some of you think. Don't get grabbed early (it might actually be advantageous to eat some lazers at the start to ensure you can't get CG-spiked) and powershield the lazers and you aren't too bad off. He has trouble killing if you watch for it. His side-B recovering is fairly predictable and even beatable if you time a move right, and if he gets below the stage, gimp knee = kill. He's not easy, but he's 30-70 at worst. He doesn't have much for kill moves except BAir (sweetspotted), FSmash (sweetspotted), DSmash, and USmash. DSmash has terrible range and a lot of ending lag so it's not usually a problem.

TofuToph said:
Falco is a really nasty matchup, but if you know how to counter (I think it's really called perfect shielding/what use to be REFLECTING in melee) then Falco's lasers aren't much of a problem because I often find myself slowly approaching the falco while I hear *ting...ting...ting...ting*. However, his chain grab -> ledge grab at low percents = Falcon is dead, no matter how spread his wings may be : ( . Also, Falco's lack of delay from most of his aerials makes it really annoying to try and punish him, which is a lot of what Falcon does from my experience. Not to mention his jabs beat most peoples, including Falcon's. (yes I know that jabs collide and you slide backwards but Falco always just starts slapping the **** out of my jabs and it pisses me off! )
A bonus against Falco is that the knee at the ledge at 40% will kill him if grab the ledge form his fB (at FD I mean).

Previous good summaries of Ike:

Wogrim said:
Ike:
Gimpable sde-B recovery means he often has to up-B. His up-B is horizontally challenged which means you can often get to him before it's in range. You can also get behind him when he's trying to up-B and hit him before he chases after his sword.
Jabbing will just get you jabbed back, so avoid it. His retreating aerials are strong so try to avoid actually "approaching". Shield is your best friend. You'll eventually get him to the edge, at which point you should be able to knock/throw him off and Knee/spike/gimp him. His kill moves hit like a truck, but if you try to rack up damage as safely as possible he'll have trouble killing you as early as he can. Good luck with the mindgames.
Ike is 45:55

A2ZOMG said:
Ike wins against Falcon due to having a Jab and F-air that are not easy to Falcon to deal with.

However, he's not that bad after you realize those are his only two good attacks. Everything else he does is unsafe on block. Up-B, Dash attack, F-tilt, or Jab out of shield as necessary against his attacks once you get close enough. Dash grabs are great against his laggier attacks.

Ike is also easy to combo for even Falcon. He lacks any decent GET OFF ME attacks. Keep him in the air as long as possible and be ready to punish him as he air dodges (which he will learn to do if you aggressively juggle him).

If you feel like really dissing him, Ike is one of those characters who happens to be not that hard to punish with Falcon Punches as long as you read the right attack. If he's dumb enough to be spamming D-smashes, that's one example of an attack that can be punished.

Lareit said:
Ike.

Not a terrible matchup, but a difficult one.
His jab and ours clank untill his pushes us out of range, his has more range and then will connect.
His aerials are difficult to punish and have deceptive range.
He can kill you very early.
Watch out for Aerial Neutral B super armor when he's in the air.

Truthfully, the kill you very early perk is what gives Ike an advantage.
Falcon Kick can punish most of his aerials if spaced.
Our Jab game works very well on him.
We can aerial juggle him well if you remember to use Falcon Dive enough to keep him guessing.

The problem becomes a matter of killing. Ike can F-tilt kill falcon starting at 80-90% While ike's great range and priority make landing a kill move exceptionally difficult. While I used to find Ike to be exceptionally easy to gimp, a couple people i've play'd lately have proven to be nearly impossible to do so.
To sum it up, you have to survive long enough to get ike in the 160% range quite often, which you're in danger of death pretty early due to his smashes and tilt ko power.
65/35.

F5Hazardousdoc said:
35-65 Ike

As for Ike, Ike is the epitomy of range, you'll have to get in his face if you want to stand a chance. If you rely on jab, I'd stay at range though, because Ike's jab is BETTER :|

Try to reverse falcon dive Ike if you can, it rips through that super armor.

I'm not going into detail other than watch your spacing, because thats all this fight is. Falcon has to approach, Ike's midrange game is waay too good on falcon. Jabs are shared alot, and Ike has a faster KO speed than Falcon. He's also very heavy, so falcon will be taking longer than usual. Watch, punish, and outspeed Ike, and TRY TO GIMP HIM, or you'll be stuck taking Ike to 160%ish.

Previous good summaries of Marth:

Wogrim said:
Marth:
Marth's flying horizontal recovery stuff should be intercepted if he tries it. Otherwise his recovery (like Ike's) is pretty limited at the angle at which it will reach the ledge. Like Ike, if you can come in above him before he gets in range to up-B you have a good opportunity to knock him under the stage. He's also not too hard to edgehog because of the shortness of his up-B's duration, although he can somewhat stall.
Marth's jab is poor and his strength comes in his range, so if you can keep him close it's not too hard. Jabs are pretty good, but beware of the speed of his up-B. If you expect it, jab a couple times and then shield for some spectacular punishing. Even if he doesn't up-B he's likely to roll or do something else punishable.
His FAir game is really annoying but I don't know if there's any sure way to get past it. Raptor Boost (grounded) works pretty well against it because it will dodge and come in behind the attack, but if he expects that he can just fastfall and shield/spotdodge instead of attacking, then punish you. Certain stages will help limit his maneuverability, and doing a lot of moving to make yourself difficult to hit will help throw his game off.
Also, in my experience rolling behind him works pretty well if he's poking or on the way down (in the air).
Marth should be around 30:70

F5Hazardousdoc said:
25-75 Marth

Marth's dtilt ***** bigtime, so make sure you have a good aerial approach game in mind, or bait the dtilt and stay out of range for a quick dropped nair or bair.

Marth's smashes are slowish, but powerful and effective. Don't underestimate the speed on fsmash, and make sure to take advantage of the ending lag on his smashes should he fail. Make sure you space just as well as the marth, getting tipped isn't pleasant.

Retreating and Approaching fairs from marth are VERY fast and difficult to punish, so make sure you're going grab happy in this game.

DO NOT TRY TO APPROACH A MIDAIR MARTH WITH KNEE, he'll just fair you. Seriously, its happened about 42414 times to me

Mix it up, and make sure to stay defensive at all times, because he DOES have to get close to deal damage, just like you. If you can learn to avoid his excellent defensive tactics, and get in lots of grabs and aerials, it won't be very hard to get a KO, thanks to marth's subpar recovery. Just don't get KILLED BY IT OK? Make sure to keep that teching reflexes in handy, JUST IN CASE.

All in all, marth does pretty much what everyone does to falcon, which is own him, badly. He's just got better moves for doing it than other guys, but with no projectiles, he has to play a mid-close range game, letting falcon have a few more options in approach and also a possible punish game.

Lareit said:
I have much experiance fighting skilled players for both these characters.

Marth is nasty.
Up B out of Jab, negates our jab game.
Dancing Blade punishes everything we do on the ground.
Counter comes out quickly enough to punish our slow smashes.
Short Hop Fair if spaced right can't be shield grabbed and apply good pressure on our shields, setting us up for shield breaker or a predictable roll.
Solid combo game that works on falcon at low percentages.
Aerial superiority negates one of falcon's only true strengths.
Tipper kills give luck/skill early KO's.

80/20.

adumbrodeus] Marth: At the beginning said:
DDD:multi-hit moves are ******** (Uair and Dair), they eat your shield, but the best thing to do is to walk away then SH Fair, it usually out prioritizes it. DDD's CG is like the best part about DDD cause it's a automatic 30%, unfortunatly all I can say is to not get grabbed............. like I face my bro's IC's everyday, he just got training from Lain...........so i'm pretty good at it but learning to not get grabbed can't be explained in text......

Stay away from him, when he starts the animation for his waddle dee run and SHAD past the waddle dee. You should be in a better position to punish it, it has TERRIBLE lag. don't think that this is melee and Nair him like hell, Nair is nice but not dependable, go for AC Fairs, it has no lag and is likely to sweet-spot due to his fatyness and even if it doesn't you can still multi jab him. His Bair wall of pain really is gay, not much you can do against it................except for the jump hump. Seriously DDD's like to intimidate you by just jumping and Bairing like a billion time before hitting to ground. do the right thing and Up B his ***

Wogrim said:
DDD:
Susceptible on the way up on his up-B (and on the way down) to Falcon Dive, which doesn't give him jumps back so he has to up-B again. On the way down, not susceptible to Falcon Punch because you can do it with good timing before he lands (otherwise the stars will hit you) but he can cancel it to mess up your timing. Full hop airdodge through his up-B and then Knee him during his landing works well, but he will have his jumps back so I recommend using Falcon Dive until the Knee will kill him.

Counterpicking to a stage like Norfair helps a lot with the chaingrabs. The other thing that helps a ton is never get yourself grabbed with your back to the long end of the stage (In other words, if he backs himself to a ledge and then you get grabbed on the inside you'll get chaingrabbed all the way across the stage). To avoid this, if DDD gets his back to the ledge stick with the following approaches:
UAir: low landing lag = good if he spotdodges, shield pushback = unlikely he'll be able to grab you
DAir: hard to punish for slow characters and puts you behind him so you can't get chaingrabbed
DSmash: if he's close enough to the ledge, charge this enough to avoid a spotdodge; shield pushback will push him onto the ledge so he can't grab you; if it doesn't push him off try to spotdodge the expected dash-grab retaliation; also ***** rolls
DashA: if he's at the very edge, this move will push him off if he shields and the hitbox will either hit him as he comes out of a spotdodge or it will end and allow you to jab/grab as he comes out of it (depending on where you start the dash attack)
BAir: jump over him and BAir, not RAR'd

Your general approach if he's in the middle of the stage should depend on which he does more: shield or spot-dodge. These **** spot-dodge:
DashA: space it such that your dash attack ends on top of him so you can jab/grab if he completely dodges it; if you hit shield either go for a spotdodge or a grab
NAir: NAir to jabs ftw; if you hit shield either try to spotdodge, grab, or Raptor Boost right away to avoid his grab
UAir: similar to NAir except less likely to combo if it lands (depends on percent); if you hit shield, shield pushback should keep you safe; sometimes they will try to grab still, which you can punish with a smash/tilt
FAir: autocancelled only; keep the hitbox on top of him so that you hit him with weak knee as he comes out of his dodge
Pivot Grab: run through him, turn around, and grab; this one usually still works on shields, and you can also SH BAir instead of grabbing if he dodges

These are good for shield:
Grab: duh
Falcon Dive: duh, and make sure you DI to safety if he dodges/rolls; since our aerial approaches are generally worse against shield than spotdodge, you can try using this out of an empty SH to get him to shield, otherwise out of a dash (try to keep it spaced at max range)
DTilt: only if you've worn down his shield a little such that it will poke underneath, very bad against spotdodge
DSmash: charge a little for the same reasons as if he's at the edge; also likes to shield poke
DAir: dashing autocanceled DAirs are pretty good at wearing shields down so that you can either poke underneath his shield or make him shield less (spotdodges/rolls, which we're better against)
UAir: already mentioned

UTilt has good shield pushback but still isn't particularly good

Things to watch out for (besides chaingrab):
BAirs: if he's BAiring you off the stage, he can chain BAirs before Falcon Dive comes out (at low percents where you don't get knocked too far away), so you need to try to UAir to get him off you first; if he approaches you on the stage with them (often floating above you and then fastfalling it) he's trying to bait you with his multiple jumps; just wait for him to come down and go for a shield-grab or a Falcon Dive/Knee if you have him in front of you a bit
FTilt: this move is really annoying, but don't try to punish it unless you completely avoid it (too far -> Falcon Kick him, roll -> xxx; aerial approaches will have him doing this a lot less because it's a free Knee), otherwise it will lead to you getting shield-grabbed
UTilt: high priority on this; don't approach in the air at high percents

Most of DDD's moves are very punishable if you can avoid them (roll -> xxx or jump -> Knee), so they'll usually stick to the shield/spotdodge grab routine for the most part. They also like to throw you off the ledge and try to hit you with FAir/BAir as you recover; if coming back above the stage you can try to airdodge through them (which they will punish with grab or UTilt (to kill) if they read it), Falcon Dive way over their head to the other side of the stage since DDD is pretty slow, or recover lower and go for the edge, but that's usually trouble. Empty SHs will get you either easy baits or will keep him from doing much poking/intercepting, which keeps him more predictable.

35-65

Previous good summaries of Mr Game and Watch:

Wogrim said:
G&W:

G&W is pretty much impossible to edgeguard because his up-B is too good. His Smashes are very strong, so around 80% you need to be playing it safe to maximize your life expectancy. You pretty much need to avoid rolling behind him because of DSmash, avoid spot-dodging because of the duration on FSmash, and be wary of shielding because of DThrow (you can avoid the immediate DSmash with a roll but a G&W can mindgame that). Rolling away is pretty much the safest, but to actually punish you should usually shield or jump (either above him or airdodge through him). Also beware of USmash ledgeguard because of its super armor. The best way to get up from the ledge seems to be jumping and airdodging, because if he intercepts with an FAir it hurts a lot.

All the G&Ws I have played like to approach with an aerial:
BAir: shield-poking; best to roll/airdodge through him and hit him in the back
FAir: sweetspot in the first few frames can kill, quite a few sex kick frames, pretty high landing lag
DAir: does not give nearly as much landing lag as Link or TL; don't try to punish one of these unless you start on his way down (if he misses completely)
NAir: annoying hitboxes on this; you basically have to punish in the ending lag or hit it with a higher-priority move

A full hop can punish the BAir/FAir/NAir (hit them from above with DAir or Kick), and you can teleport a Falcon Dive on them if you see one coming. You'll need to be spaced kind of far for that to work because Dive doesn't come out that fast. USmash may also work via its disjointed portion (I'm pretty sure I've had it work on FAir), and FSmash usually will trade hits (or you'll win) but you'll get the better end of the deal. Keeping enough spacing that you can punish his approaches with an attack instead of defense is really helpful. SHing away and looping back in for a BAir is also really effective, and the duration on his aerials is such that a well-planned Falcon Punch works wonders.

When you're high above the stage, watch out for the pushback on his UAir because it can cause you to miss with something laggy and get punished. Also don't use Raptor Boost to recover if he's flinging sausage or bacon or whatever because it will swing at one of those and give you the bounce and landing lag, which makes it easy for him to smash you.

If G&W is not approaching you'll probably have a bunch of trouble with his DSmash. Since his roll is really slow, you can generally expect that he won't use it, which generally means a lot of moves are a bit safer than on other characters. Approaching in the air with autocancelled DAir and FAir can work alright, but avoid NAir, UAir, and BAir as an approach because he's short so you have to be in the air too long for it to work very well. Tilts and Smashes to poke at him (which generally makes him want to approach) are probably the best option. Expect almost all retaliation to be a DSmash, because that's pretty much your worst-case scenario (he'll do FSmash enough that you should avoid spot-dodges though). Shield-pushback and good spacing can generally make this a non-issue on shields, so spotdodges are usually more of a trouble for your pokes. A healthy mix of aerial approaching and partially-charged smashes will help with those.

30-70

Ayaz18 said:
G&W:Dsmash is a move I have recently been able to handle, and it's pretty simple when you think about when G&W players use it. if you look at Dsmash the thing is that it has START-UP LAG and no after lag, most players become intimidated by the animation of the rising hammers, when in reality this is the prime time to attack. You may be thinking you need super human reflexes to punish it every time, but usually G&W players Dsmash then spot dodge repeatedly until it hits. At this time I suggest if your in you shield to jump out of it and FF Dair. doesn't seem effective on paper but trust me it's easy once you get the hang of it. Dair to Up B also is a killer and unfortunately you can't do much............except for the jump hump :D. If you get what i'm hinting at, you'll understand that if you KNOW you opponent is going to do an arial attack, then jump hump them.

for his turtle run right into it..........and SHAD, once you behing him you can punish his lag with like Ftilt, Fsmash, Hyphen Usmash, etc. his bucket canceling is dumb, I fought NoJ's G&W and he uses this a lot, so watch out! his Nair is where it get's dumber, Falcon can't do much against it, my main strategy is to full hop above his Nair and strike with an aerial Falcon kick. to take care of bucket canceling..............iunno it's gay and I have not found a way around it.

Previous good summaries of ROB:

F5Hazardousdoc said:
ROB is too good.

100:0 R.O.B.s favor. Its just too simple. ROB just ROBS you and you lie there and as he takes your wallet. Then you ask "WHY?!?" And he just beeps and dsmashes you.

Ok but seriously... ROB is a camper. Any good ROB will NEVER approach you barring a glidetoss. And even then they won't approach unless they know it'll catch you off guard or if you're falling from a jump.

Lasers are annoying, and can be angled. Watch out, since they'll use it to disrupt your second jump and have a chance at edgehogging you. Gyro has some pretty high knockback, and a lingering hitbox as it spins, acting like a wall if you don't jump. ROB also has an amazing glidetoss, and many options for faking you out with it.

Nair can and will destroy your aerial game, but its slow. Falcon can stay right under ROB, and pretty much stay safe if you can read the nairs properly. Oh yeah and shorthopped knee = ****. ROB's one tall mofo.

Be careful grabbing, spotdodge to dsmash can and will be used and abused throughout the match.

Its a tough climb, but falcon is fast and has a good way to punish ROBs blindspot. I'd say 40:60 ROB's favor.

Lareit said:
Rob-Gyro spam. Lazer spam. Downsmash Spam. Fair aerial chains. The only things to fear from him honestly.

Sadly it's enough to give him a pretty distinct advantage. Especially since his projectile spam followed by his tilts(which outrange and outprioritize ours) limit approaching from the front. It's almost all going to be Up and over.

Up forward tilts outrange without clanging his downsmash. Which is useful for follow up after a bair approach. Falcon kick should be used the other half of the time when you land outside of downsmash range and try to bait his forward or down tilt.

He has no quick aerial so Jab games all work on him.
He's also tall so nair and knee's are in high supply this fight.
His kill moves should not land easily on Falcon.

60-40 Rob's favor.

Wogrim said:
Rob:

Pretty much ungimpable: generally have to kill him off the side or spike him, although you can rack up some decent damage as he tries to up-B back to the stage (expect him to NAir if you approach)
Spotdodge -> DSmash: Not much you can do here except for long-duration hitboxes (Knee, Dash attack to some extent, although both are bad on shield) or using cancelled aerials. Falcon Dive as an approach gets you out of the way of the DSmash
Weak spots: below him (slow DAir, laggy NAir) and above him if he's in the air (not very good UAir, laggy NAir)
Laser: keep in mind his perspective and you can generally see these coming
FAir WOP: fast but gets beat by strong moves. If you're in the air you need to airdodge or DI away/down so that one misses (and Falcon Dive, Raptor Boost spike, Knee his arms, or UAir him)
NAir: dodge these and you're fine

Ayaz18 said:
ROB- not too much experience with ROB, he can be campy and get away with it so choose a small stage (battlefield?), hile ROB players are recovering they like to Nair, this makes their recovery nearly impossible to gimp. Like I said though......I don't have too much experience with ROB, the only ones I played that beat me were OCC and Holynightmare. I played few others but they wern't as good

Previous good summaries of Luigi:

Wogrim said:
Luigi:
Fast aerials like Mario can "combo" you to hell and back; spacing and getting away if he does hit you are important.
Very good recovery, but basically vulnerable to Falcon Dive during those B-moves.
NAir: beware of this because he can bust this out in the middle of 'combos' and eat you up.
Fireballs: only a problem if you approach carelessly; not good enough to make you approach.
Up-B: nasty as a kill move; try not to stay too near him.

His fast move speed (short duration) generally means you can't really beat him with speed, leaving range, priority, or knockback (when trading hits) your modes to beat him in. Smashes and Utilt help a lot.

Ayaz18 said:
Luigi- I actually play a Luigi in my community who is REALLY good (beat WiGi in a mirror match). At first Luigi seems like a crazy combo character who seems unbeatable, however Falcon and Luigi are surprisingly are very similar............they both don't have priority. So when in this match-up think that your melee Falcon or better yet, imagine your Meta-knight. Abuse all the moves in your move-set because it's likely that they will out-prioritize Luigi's attacks. Moves to look out for are, Dair and Nair, these are luigi's only approach options (along with his fireball), so as long as you watch-out for thouse you should be fine. However, if your playing a good Luigi watch-out for his jabs, he can kind of jab-lock you by canceling his second jab rythmically, in this position start DI'ing away from him because if you get to close he can combo his jab into up-B

Previous good summaries of Kirby:

Ayaz18 said:
now back on topic: Kirby is REALLY gay with his combo's, honestly if you get grabbed one Kirby can Fthrow -> Uair->x2 -> Fsmash for like 50-60%? and Fsmash has ludicrous knockback so Kirby can be in the position to edgeguard you. what I do is that if I get grabbed, I start mashing up on the c-stick and and control stick to SDI out of Kirby's Uair so I can't get grabbed

this match-up is 70:30

fromundaman said:
Not exactly a matchup I've played much, but Kirby vs Falcon will generally end badly for Falcon.

As was previously mentioned, Kirby can crouch under a lot of your attacks, and since Dtilt brings Kirby into a crouch, he can pretty much Dtilt a lot of Falcon's moves. Inhale will also pull Falcon out of a lot of his moves, but it has a long startup, so it really won't be used that often.

Also, I believe Kirby's Bair outranges all of Falcon's aerials except maybe his Uair, and is without a doubt one of our most used aerials.

If Falcon works like Ganon, then we should be able to Dair you out of your recovery, which makes gimping you really quite easy.
Also, does your UpB beat our stone? If not, then stone edgeguarding is also fairly effective.

Also, against Kirby you should expect Gonzo combos, and even after you are out of the percent range for it, be wary of our grabs. Kirby has a grab range that is abnormally large for his tiny arms and comes out quite fast.

We can also combo fairly well with other moves. For example, a FFed Fair, while it can be shieldgrabbed, leads into anything else if not shielded. Utilt combos into a Bair or itself. Dtilt can combo into grabs or Fsmashes, and Dair can combo into just about anything else.

While our hammer is powerful, it is very situational, and our Fsmash is most likely going to be our kill move. A hyphen Usmash seems to work fairly well too, but not too many Kirbies use it due to the ending lag (Dsmash is rarely seen due to a relatively low range and high ending lag.).

Hope that helps.

Edit: Oh, and just so you know, our version of the PAWNCH! makes us rise a little, so don't get caught off guard by a rising PAWNCH!.

Previous good summaries of Lucario:

Ayaz18 said:
Wolfblade has the most LEGENDARY combo with Lucario: jab jab forcepalm CG Taunt. This is Lucario's most devestating combo as it damages Falcon and your soul.

now onto more serious issue's. Lucario's main strengths are his range, his damage/power game, his combo-ability, and Aurasphere.

Range: Lucario's Fsmash's range is about half of FD........ a bit exagerated but totally true. Lucario mains tend to stay a safe distance away and camp with Fsmashes when you dangling on the edge, the best way to get up safely is to drop mid-air jump and airdodge. Their Fsmash has like no after lag AT ALL making the move hard to punish, the start up lag is where he is vunerable, but I wouldn't suggest challenging it. His aerials all have aura-range which is a fancy word for disjointed hitbox -_- so the only thing that is going to beat Lucaio's air game is priority........ too bad were fresh out of that, i think i'm going to test which moves are best to challenge Lucario in the air........a flubbed knee has some good properties. So how do we stop this ridiculous range *****? easy! you stay up in his grill son! if he can't out space you then Falcon has a major advantage.

Damage/Power: Lucario becomes stronger when he becomes closer to death kinda like Goku......wait isn't Lucario voiced BY Goku?......O SNAP! anyways so what you want to do is try and kill Lucario off the top because of his lightness at 100%. DO NOT LET HIM LIVE when he does he can safely camp with AS which can be a ***** at times. Also edgehog Lucario every time, his Up B can't harm you, and if he lands just above you, you can pull out the old Forsaken Recovery..........they'll be crying after. Usmash will kill him easily so try and and find a way to squeeze it in.

Combos: he can combo at low percentages only, his Fair is a good string starter but DI will save you from them with ease.

Aura Sphere:it's strong and annoying....................... but lacks priority

60:40 Lucario if you play your cards right

Previous good summaries of DK:

knuxrouge;6495751 Now then said:
Falcon : DK
20 : 80[/CENTER]

*leaves*

Previous good summaries of Peach:

knuxrouge said:
I have little Peach/Falcon experience, but I main Peach and second Falcon, this section is conjecture, don't flame me if I'm off the ball.

Falcon's best deal is his up air, has great range, but almost fails vs Peach's down air due to low priority, however, Peach enters helpless mode whilst floating and is open to a free knee.

Falcon's ground game is on par with Peach, to counteract Peach's fast ground moves, Falcon has a bit more maneuverability on the ground and can make good to knock off Peach's ground action.
Turnips & Glidetossing = Advantage Toadstool
Falcon just sucks vs them, he can't find a good way around them either.
Falcon's best bet is staying in Peach's face, and shoving all his stuff in it.
If Falcon goes off stage, it's pretty much a quitter, due to Peach's awesome edge guarding, but the same almost applies the other way around, as Peach has poor defense while off stage, maybe counteracted by her great recovery options, but makes her easy to Falcon spike.

For Falcon, it's high risk, high return, but for Peach, she has the upper hand until she ****s up, which due to Falcon's speed and move showing, she's bound to.

Falcon : Peach
35 : 65

Previous good summaries of Samus:

F5Hazardousdoc said:
WHOOOOOO Two matchups I have tons of experience with. I'll brb with my post on the fox boards, the falcon vs fox matchup is 40:60.

In the meantime, my samus post:

Samus is a versatile long to mid range fighter, with fast moves on the inside to clear you away. Samus has insane floatiness, totally disrupting combo games, and has tons of true combos. On top of that, samus is a pro at camping, thanks to the number of projectiles she can have out of have ready to punish you should you miss an approach.

However, this matchup isn't all sparkles for samus. Hell no. Falcon's air speed and ground speed let him close the distance insanely fast, and samus does NOT like close quarters against somebody with a pretty great CQC game.

Falcon is pretty heavy, meaning samus already obscenely low killing power is punished to an even HIGHER extent. Samus's spike, usually a KO magnet for her, is foiled by falcon's high reward recovery options, and falcon dive can sometimes ignore the knockback with grab priority and return the favor in a stage spike. While falcon is certainly gimpable, it's not as easy as other characters.

Falcon's ground game is pretty intact here. Watch out for suprise screw attacks, they can screw around with your jab game if you don't cancel fast enough. Samus' grabs are pretty wide range, so she can punish a whiffed aerial more effectively, but she suffers some pretty nasty lag on misses. Punish with fsmash/dsmash.

To fight samus's projectiles, well, abuse their low blast radius, man up, and PUNCH EM. Most of your attacks will blow missiles out of the sky, but you can usually just jab a missile to detonate it safely. If you want to approach quickly, dashing in and doing an airdodge in is a very effective way to slide right past the projectile wall.
Also, sliding shields or sidesteps is a good method as well, but sliding shields can get pressured, and the samus may expect it and grab while the missle is impacting your shield. Sliding sidesteps can punish alot of her projectiles, barring homing missiles about to run out of juice, bombs, and the Charge laser *its just too big, you'll drop out of sidestep and get your rear end smoked*. Mix up the approaches to get past projectile storms.

Now, for the OTHER problem, zair.

FALCON KICK. Seriously, it works. The samus player has to zair either instantly or while hes coming back down to hit you in your nice streamlined KYICK. Another good option is to dash in, but just before he zairs, pull out a raptor boost and watch the move WHIFF and you glide in and deliver a fiery uppercut.

You can always mix it up and jump over, and drop a nair or uair, as samus is abnormally tall. Sliding shields always work, learn the timing and try for powershields to run in without much lag, offering them no chance to recover and space.

Learn the spacing on zair, READ THE SHORTHOP GAME. DON'T ROLL BEHIND SAMUS, you'll eat a shdair or shuair into dtilt or whatever. Samus's will almost always be shorthopping, they can deliver most of their most effective moves from that position. Hop at them with a nair or even a knee if you feel bold. Watch for nair, space your nair to outrange theirs *yes it outranges theirs, like we outrange link's nair vs nair*

This match is still a bit hard, but its nowhere close to a big advantage.. once you learn how to fight samus that is. Samus's tend to win off of sheer shock value, seeing as good samus's are VERY rare. I've had the good fortune to play against amazing samus's like Shadowth7 and Spoon, spoon up close and personal too :D

Matchup: 55:45 Samus. She pulls slightly ahead due to forcing approaches, and spike game, but could fall back should falcon read her projectiles and predict her close range game. Samus's lack of killing power and falcon's abundance of it also plays a factor.

Roager said:
I agree with this.

Samus's advantages:
Projectiles
Zair
Long-ish range moves (tilts)

Samus's disadvantages:
Weak close combat game
Slow, often telegraphed killmoves
Slower than Falcon

I'd say Samus : Falcon is 55:45

knuxrouge said:
Okay, it'd time for my two cents, which is priceless.

Samus!
I say this is a great match up for Falcon.
Samus may have a better air game, but the ground game is all Falcon.
He can make his way around all her projectiles, which don't pack a lethal punch anyway, and once he gets close, which is easier to do than against most others, he can own.
Samus has two primary advantages, excellent recovery options, and her Z air.

This is a highly defensive fight for Samus, pretty much because Falcon is too much man for her to handle.
Samus' grapple recovery can be punished hard by falcon, with either a Back Air Stage Spike, or a Falcon Hyes Stage Spike, the latter is much more effective.

On the flipside, if Falcon is positioned right, Samus can prevent him from recovering all together, thank God for non directional air dodging.
Samus has kill issues, and Falcon has 6+ of them, all of which are effective vs Samus.
For Samus, she just needs to space alot.
For Falcon, it's all about getting in her face and shoving his manliness in it.

50:50
Maybe 52:48 Falcon's favor...

Previous good summaries of Fox:

Roager said:
Fox's advantages
Speed
More speed (it counts as two)
More flexible recovery (Falcon's is quite predictable)
Pistol spam

Fox's disadvantages
Less reach (Falcon's tilts can be pretty useful)
Delay on recovery (opens up a chance for Falcon to get ready, edgeguard, or even interrupt)

Also, Fox : Falcon is 60:40

knuxrouge said:
Fox!
I'm a Fox mainer! ^^
Anyway, Fox definitely has the advantage here, but Falcon can punish well vs Fox.
Fox is kinda short, so he can get under most of Falcon's short hopped aerials. His fast falling however can work against him here, as Falcon can get some good combos (yes, combos) on Fox. A careless Fox can easily illusion back on stage into a Falcon Punch, and due to Fox's poor recovery options, an offstage knee is easy to spot. Falcon has a better air game, and can prevent Fox's down air with an up air, and that's really all he needs to get past most of Fox's aerials. Fox does have a better short hopping game, he can hit easier and more consistently with short hop aerials than Falcon can to Fox. The ground game is pretty equal, well--Fox has a bit of an upper hand, because he has a low percentage up tilt lock, and Falcon only has a makeshift chain grab. Fox has more frame traps, but Falcon's are more effective
Fox runs a high risk of a Falcon Hyes Stage Spike if he chases Falcon off stage.

Falcon can also kill Fox earlier than Fox can kill Falcon.
For Fox, Frame traps, short hop aerials and of course the short hop laser staple.
For Falcon, nothing generally special, just show him your moves.

60:40 Fox's Favor.

*leaves*

F5Hazardousdoc said:
Coming in from the falcon boards :D
Falcon has very few to no approach options, but has fox beat in one area, FOX CAN'T OUTRUN DIS GAI

Falcon can beat laser spam by rushing in with a stutter usmash, a falcon kick, or raptor boost. Space properly to avoid usmash, powershield or jump > dair falcon kick, and shield to LOLOWN raptor boost.

Falcon's grabs are quite good, actually, he has a psuedo chain grab on fthrow if you don't respond fast enough. You can fair right out of the throws though, unless the CF you're fighting is Falcon Dive happy.

Speaking of which, Falcon dive is a grab type move, so it'll cut right through your attacks with grab priority. It has incredible knockback, and stage spikes if you get caught on the ledge with your pants down. CF's also have a true combo from cancelling nair after first hit to falcon dive, or failed knee ground cancelled into falcon dive. Be aware.

Falcon punch shouldn't be seen often, but exercise caution when using illusion to recover, or you may end up flying straight into the fiery fist of justice.

The knee SEEMS to have gotten nerfed, but in actuality any good falcon will know how to land it. Don't underestimate a falcon jumping at you, a bad spotdodge could lead to getting kneed. Falcon's also love to jump over their opponent and bair them, which is a fairly safe approach. Another true combo is dair to knee... it works at higher percentages, but you still need to be careful if the falcon starts autocancel dairing.

You CAN gimp falcon's Falcon dive, but considering your options to do so, its very dangerous, because of the risk of getting WTFSTAGESPIKED AT 17% and dying. Raptor boost is also a common recovery, theres a mock waveland on curved stages, and its spikes should it land in the aerial format.

Oh yeah, Falcon kick loses its lag when it flies over the edge, watch out or you might get edgeguarded off of a falcon kick off the edge.

I don't think Falcon can hold a candle up to projectile users, but fox's has no stun. Fox doesn't seem to have a stunning range advantage, so Falcon has a better time

I'd say Fox 60:40

Previous good summaries of Diddy Kong:

Player-3 said:
Diddy:
Dash attack is going to be your lord and savior in this matchup, since it its generally fast and good at picking up/catching bananas, plus it has good knockback and beats out diddys (im pretty sure) so can give you some breathing room if needed
NEVER
EVER
EVER
grounded falcon kick here
it is suicide, and more than likely a free 20% for the diddy
Use Side-b to punish rolls
the only thing you will have agaisnt diddy is aerial, since his aerial game is GOOD, but not too great of range, so SPAM uair, and if you get diddy offstage, and theres a bannana onstage, pick up the naner, and when he tries to barrel back, zdrop it on his barrels
STAY OFF THE GROUND AT ALL COSTS
diddy will **** you 7 ways to sunday on the ground
Side-b is your friend here, not as good as dash attack, but it gets diddy into the air
also RARed uairs are good here... i dont know why
Use uthrow alot, for you have the advantage (if it is small) in the air over diddy... and this sets up great for people like ROB
so basically:
Spam dash attack, jabs, uthrow, ALWAYS techchase with side-b, use nanners to set off his barrels

easily a 65:35 matchup, ill get Player-1 in here to hear his side of the argument

t3h n00b said:
Diddy is my best character, even though I use Falcon more -_-

His biggest weakness in my opinion is his ground game without bananas. This obviously means getting them from him, though. Instead of throwing them offstage (I die a little bit inside when I see someone doing that) or throwing them at Diddy, unless you know what you're doing, throw them up or down. This leaves them on the stage, and your opponent will have to come through you to get them back, or wait for the bananas to despawn in awhile (15 seconds maybe?). Ftilt is Diddy's longest-ranged ground attack, although most of his smashes and tilts have a range that's similar. Your best bet is to stay right outside that range, provided he's not about to throw a banana at you, so you can outrange(!!!) him with tilts and avoid the peanut gun, which only hits people at point-blank or about 2/3 of the diameter of FD when not charged.

Grounded Falcon Kick is really bad, all of Diddy's ground attacks are fast, and you will probably just get hit by a banana anyway. I almost never land knees on Diddy due to his size and pretty good aerial range, I wouldn't try more than once or twice a match. Also, if you try it offstage, Diddy's dair is very easy to spike with. Diddy can have a ton of trouble killing if you DI well, downsmash to me is the most reliable move for that, but you need to be maybe at 120% or a little higher to die from it. Fsmash takes more damage than that unless it's at the edge, and usmash is terrible for killing, but hyphen smashing after you trip on a banana is pretty common. Fsmash has two hits and usmash has 3, you can DI out of fsmash and save yourself fairly easily if you practice, and usmash almost never hits with all three kicks if you know what you're doing. Fair has decent knockback, and bair is almost as strong as it. Diddy's rocketbarrels will spike you if you're recovering under them as well. In my opinion, the matchup is 65-35.

Falchion- said:
This is how I look at it:

Pros
-Capt. Falcon dominates Diddy Kong in the air
-Diddy Kong('s recovery) is easily gimpable off-stage, whether with U-Airs or flubbed F-Airs
-Grabs work pretty well against Diddy Kong
-Raptor Boost punishes most errors, allowing for a versatile branch of attacks
-N-Air disrupts Diddy Kong pretty nicely
-SHAD helps to position yourself better

Cons
-Diddy Kong dominates the ground; bananas just overall overwhelm Capt. Falcon (huge pro for Diddy Kong)
-Capt. Falcon is heavy, making it easier for Diddy Kong to set up for more attacks
-Diddy Kong spikes rather easily
-Diddy Kong edgehogs fairly well

Disclosure: Overall, just a matchup you REALLY want to avoid. As mentioned before, Diddy Kong's ground game overwhelms Capt. Falcon, making it rather hard to approach with many attacks. Falcon Kick is pretty much futile against a Diddy Kong, simply because you'll most likely run into a banana, which allows Diddy Kong to punish very easily. As far as edgehogging, Diddy Kong does a fairly good job at it. His D-Tilt is pretty spammable, so watch out for it. From there, he can either just grab the edge, or even just B-Air you against the stage at higher percentages, or just spike you. It really depends on the player you're facing. I prefer not to use B-Airs, simply because Diddy Kong is a small character, so the chance of hitting him is pretty iffy.

However, Capt. Falcon does outdo him in some aerials. For one, the air. Out of your aerials, SH N-Airs help a bit in disrupting him. U-Airs and (flubbed) F-Airs help for gimping, even tripping.AC D-Airs help to set up for more aerials. Diddy Kong's bananas can easily backfire on him, but in the hands of a good Diddy Kong player, this is subject to change. Dash Attack and Raptor Boost are good ways to TC him, which easily flow into U-Airs. As for throws, D/U-Throws are good, as they lead into more aerials. F-Throw is tolerable at low percentages, but I still prefer to use D/U-Throw.

Overall, I'd say 35:65, Diddy Kong's favor.

Previous good summaries of Wario:

MorphedChaos said:
Just to let you Capt Falcon mainers know, Wario is just impossible to grab. Bowser has an infinite, so does ZSS on Wario, and the matchups are 50:50 or 60:40 in Wario's Favor for Captain Falcon. Maybe 9:1, but that might be streching it a tiny bit. due to how hard he is to grab. 8:2 in Wario's Favor. he can Gimp you bad, he can kill you early, and your Uair is the only thing that might go through our Nair, but our Dair beats it I THINK. Anyway Uair is your best aerial to use against Wario I believe, that or nair. Don't fight Wario in the air though, trust me you will lose.

If you DO manage to grab him, Grab release and abuse it, its free damage. Good luck though. Also, Chomp can eat your Fair and Falcon Punch , I think if you aim just above wario's head the Fair can hit him.

Don't forget, Haft waft kills at around 60% with good DI if its perfect, if not, your off the stage and you lost a stock due to Wario's great offstage game. And Wario has a tire AT with the large tire that gets us a free Fsmash.

Thanks to everyone that's participated in the discussion too. You all rock.

Ville · Nov 8, 2008

Worst 2 matchups for Falcon, I think there's not much of an explanation needed.

M@v · Nov 8, 2008

The matchup ratio of MK vs Falcon: LOL

Majora_younglink · Nov 8, 2008

^^ Of course they're bad. That's why I started out with them. These matchups need the most input on what C Falcon actually has over them which from my experience is very little. It's not only discussing the good but the bad so other C Falcons know.

I'll start off discussion of Olimar though since I've actually had some experience with some awesome Olimar players. For the most part you're approaching is ****ed. Also, his grab game is ridiculously good on C Falcon since all of his moves require him to be in close proximity of his opponent. Also Red Pikmin are immune to most of your B moves. In the air you have a slight advantage over him or about even I'd say and he's not the hardest character in the game to a edgeguard due to the nature of his UpB. I'm fairly sure he has more priority than you but his range of his attacks are less than yours. He's fairly light and easy to KO at higher percents which is good since you'll be taking a lot of dmg from just his pikmin alone. Still you're at a big disadvantage. I'd venture to say a tentative... 80:20?

Scruffy · Nov 8, 2008

Ville said:
Worst 2 matchups for Falcon, I think there's not much of an explanation needed.

Agreed. Trying to use Falcon against MK is just painful, unless you're really good, or the MK player is really bad.

Lemon Drop · Nov 8, 2008

It is really disappointing that neither Meta Knight nor Captain Falcon have a proper match-up thread. You know that Meta Knight dominates pretty much everyone, and you know Captain Falcon has a bunch of bad match-up but no one seems to be serious when discussing match-ups for these two characters.

Mmac · Nov 8, 2008

You guys could use a Chart. Use my Universal Template I made quite awhile ago

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3887/universalmuyb0.png

And MetaKnight does have a Matchup Thread

Drecker · Nov 8, 2008

Isn't that just a tier list with different colors?

Onomanic · Nov 8, 2008

I think you're supposed to take it and write in "Advantage" "Disadvantage" or "Neutral" in those boxes underneath.

Mmac · Nov 8, 2008

blu link said:
I think you're supposed to take it and write in "Advantage" "Disadvantage" or "Neutral" in those boxes underneath.

This, or Ratios

Lemon Drop · Nov 8, 2008

I have a ratio for you guys already, Captain vs Captain Falcon = 50/50

F5Hazardousdoc · Nov 8, 2008

Lemon Drop said:
I have a ratio for you guys already, Captain vs Captain Falcon = 50/50

LOL.

Well, I'll kick off the metaknight one k?

C falcon vs MK

Range goes to MK
Speed goes to MK
KO Ability goes to MK
Priority goes to MK
Move chaining goes to MK

Metaknight is the nightmare matchup for EVERY character in the game, and Capt Falcon is not immune. Metaknight's range, usually his only downside against some other characters, is about twice as large as Capt Falcon's embarrassing range. Metaknight can use, abuse, and overuse every trick in his book against Falcon. Just take everything you've heard in horror stories about losing to MK, and multiply it by 2. Thats how painful this matchup is.

Now, for our hope. Falcon kick. Use it. Love it. Marry it *not really*. It cuts through the dreaded mach tornado, making it falcon's only light in this hopeless fight. Metaknight is very light, meaning that Capt Falcon's slightly below average killing power gets a boost, and falcon dive's grabbing properties can let you grab priority your way through that nasty shuttle loop. In this match, you want to jab metaknight as much as you can, and aim for the earliest possible KO. Use Fsmash over Dsmash, and make sure to pivot boost it.

Since MK is in the air alot, knee's aren't out of the question, but beware, Metaknights fair cuts through all CF's moves, meaning chasing throws is out of the question. Instead of chasing throws, try to provoke a fair, then jump in with a knee or uair. You can also dash dance into a grab if you're feeling confident. Metaknight is a fast character, few in the cast are faster, so you can easily use your superior running speed to throw him off and get a free dash attack or throw in on a whiffed dash attack. Should you miss a grab or dash attack, JAB. Don't try to run, you'll only get whacked with the tip of dsmash or fair.

Beware of Fair. There is no answer in falcon's book for fairs, you simply run or get hit. Try timing a falcon kick on an improperly spaced fair, or you could even jump over him and airdodge, then control back towards him for a bair. Make use of the first kick of nair > ground cancelling it into a jab, or grab, or even utilt. Utilt is such a high priority move, it can clank with a few of MK's moves *I've had it clank with the tornado startup before*, in addition to its high knockback and the built in delay that can fake out sidesteppers or powershielders.

Falcon punch. If you see an opening, and can land a fiery fist of justice into Metaknight's evil top tier body, expect a VERY early KO. Mindgame this reversing it off a ledgehop, chasing a tech, or even edgeguarding. Just as with the falcon punch, landing the knee will be a godsend in KOing MK early, and its not as hard to land due to MK's consistant aerial acrobatics. Try predicting a shuttle loop, then striking a knee right at the point where MK comes to and starts gliding.

This matchup is a nightmare, and there isn't much hope. Give it your all, and prove Falcon's worthiness!

Final verdict: Capt Falcon vs. MetaKnight:
Falcon is at a major disadvantage, 10:90

Hope this helps... As for olimar, I have little experience fighting olimars other than having alot of fun dthrowing him across FD and faking out his fair for another dthrow.

Wogrim · Nov 8, 2008

I'm not really in the mood to discuss right now, but here's a link to my guide that many people seem not to know about.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4749443

Keep in mind that the info is on the old side and that I don't have much experience against several characters, but that should get you started.

For Olimar, knowing the difference between FSmash, grab, and Pikmin throw helps a lot since he's often spamming one of those. Also his DSmash is fairly weak and gets ***** in range by ours, and since spot dodging seems to simply not work for his grabs, I found rolling to be fairly effective. Try to stay off platforms because his USmash is a pain. I have like 10 vids vs Olimar that you might learn some stuff from.

Mmac · Nov 9, 2008

You know... Falcon both has a CG, and a Free Usmash on Release....

You're giving MetaKnight too much credit. I'm sure he's bad, but I don't think it's ZOMGWTFBBQ Impossible...

F5Hazardousdoc · Nov 9, 2008

Gah, the CG isn't very hardcore. Consider me a rusty Falcon, but needless, in every experience I've had with pro MKs, I've never done better than getting 2 stocked. I'm sure, in my prime with CF, I could take em to the last stock, but... it's just terrible. Simply terrible.

I vote CF for highest learning curve, though I hear yoshi's got a high learning curve too.

Tidycats29 · Nov 9, 2008

I actually entered my first brawl tourney with falcon
i mained him in melee
i still use him on brawl

in that tourney i lost to a meta in 2nd round *sigh*

anyway
i'll try to sum up a little from my experience with falcon against a few good metas i've faced

I'll go in basics
DON'T FOR GODS SAKE TRY TO FIGHT META IN AIR
it's almost hopeless
your only good move in air is up-b to get out of tornado
and U-air

stay on ground at all costs
if a meta tries to shuttle loop you
you shield it and use up-b and you'll grab him
it works very well

use Falcon kick wisely
as it seems to be a very effective move against meta in ground
punish meta if he makes a mistake with an EPIC knee
o and the epic knee sweetspot is bigger if you hit meta on his back

if you manage to grab meta
down throw him and try to hit a knee afterwards
timing is key obviously but it does work

How to grab meta up close?
usually a jab and then grab works well
falcons jab is the only thing that's been buffed

ur main weapons on ground is
u-tilt and jab and grab
down smash is probably your best smash
so use it when you believe it will hit

yeah i see this match up 7:3 meta anyway

i believe falcons worst match up is snake

Majora_younglink · Nov 9, 2008

Mmac said:
You guys could use a Chart. Use my Universal Template I made quite awhile

Thanks for the chart. I was pondering over using chary faces followed by ratios to represent matchups but this helps a lot.

Mmac said:
You know... Falcon both has a CG, and a Free Usmash on Release....

You're giving MetaKnight too much credit. I'm sure he's bad, but I don't think it's ZOMGWTFBBQ Impossible...

We do have those on him but people tend to forget about them for some reason. People do give MK too much credit at times in this matchup but me personally I find this his worst matchup.

Zeallyx · Nov 9, 2008

Mmac said:
You know... Falcon both has a CG, and a Free Usmash on Release....

You're giving MetaKnight too much credit. I'm sure he's bad, but I don't think it's ZOMGWTFBBQ Impossible...

ZOMGWTFBBQ Impossible may be an understatement..
for a grab release, one must actually grab a meta knight..and this is easier said than done

meta knight is simply horrible to play against :/
With falcon's slow(er) smashes and lack of reliable kill moves, meta knight seriously owns falcon too much, this is where one can see that the characters 'abillities' were not really tested lol
or at least not this matchup

meta knight can punish alot of falcon's moves/approaches with a simple Dsmash and a whorenado if they feel like it..not to mention meta's airials

This matchup is the reason alot of falcon mainers quit maining falcon

Olimar is another example of why falcon is worse

Olimar is really hard to beat, and if it wasn't for a few cases of lag after some of olimars moves, he would be meta knight 2.0 for falcon

His shieldgrab destroys falcon..it's that simple unfortunatly

Utilt is also rapetastic against falcon, and Fair will keep you from approaching with an arial, well actually alot of olimars move will make you doubt that your next move will actually work

and when one tries to approach with a non-arial, you'll discover that pikmin actually slow down your falcon kick and STOP your raptor boost >.<

Olimar destroys falcon..unfortunatly

Majora_younglink · Nov 10, 2008

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
ZOMGWTFBBQ Impossible may be an understatement..
for a grab release, one must actually grab a meta knight..and this is easier said than done

meta knight is simply horrible to play against :/
With falcon's slow(er) smashes and lack of reliable kill moves, meta knight seriously owns falcon too much, this is where one can see that the characters 'abillities' were not really tested lol
or at least not this matchup

meta knight can punish alot of falcon's moves/approaches with a simple Dsmash and a whorenado if they feel like it..not to mention meta's airials

This matchup is the reason alot of falcon mainers quit maining falcon

Olimar is another example of why falcon is worse

Olimar is really hard to beat, and if it wasn't for a few cases of lag after some of olimars moves, he would be meta knight 2.0 for falcon

His shieldgrab destroys falcon..it's that simple unfortunatly

Utilt is also rapetastic against falcon, and Fair will keep you from approaching with an arial, well actually alot of olimars move will make you doubt that your next move will actually work

and when one tries to approach with a non-arial, you'll discover that pikmin actually slow down your falcon kick and STOP your raptor boost >.<

Olimar destroys falcon..unfortunatly

I don't think with or without the lag on Oli's moves would his matchup be nearly as bad as MK's. He has actual priority and range issues with some of his moves like downsmash where Falcon can actually get his move in before Oli does. Also other than FAir and UPB his air game compared to Falcon is kinda bad. Falcon can juggle him with a few UAirs so the key to beating him in the air is to out range him with your legs and such.

Really Oli's priority isn't that astounding. You can actually cling with quite a few of his moves. And if you can kill a few of his pikmin you can make him go on the defensive for a little while.

Zeallyx · Nov 11, 2008

Majora_younglink said:
I don't think with or without the lag on Oli's moves would his matchup be nearly as bad as MK's. He has actual priority and range issues with some of his moves like downsmash where Falcon can actually get his move in before Oli does. Also other than FAir and UPB his air game compared to Falcon is kinda bad. Falcon can juggle him with a few UAirs so the key to beating him in the air is to out range him with your legs and such.

Really Oli's priority isn't that astounding. You can actually cling with quite a few of his moves. And if you can kill a few of his pikmin you can make him go on the defensive for a little while.

yes I agree that olimar is easier to beat than meta knight (with falcon)
but still olimar is one heck of a difficult match up >.<

Ville · Nov 11, 2008

I wonder why nobody mentioned the Bair in here.
Metaknight and Olimar are really light weight and it can kill them (sweetspotted and fresh of course) at ~100-120%. It's easy to land, fast and has an ok priority.

About Metaknight:
As stated before, you don't stand just the slightest chance against him in the air, so try to stay grounded. You can try to shieldgrab him if he's not approaching with whorenado or dashgrab.
Another point is that it's nearly impossible to gimp MK in any way, and gimping is one of the areas falcon is actually good at.
Trying to hit a knee is kinda idiotic because metaknight has like no punishable move ;/
Moves you should use: Falcon kick, Utilt, Falcon Dive, grab, Jab, Uair, Bair
Ratio 15:85
Olimar:
I actually don't think that this matchup is so awful for falcon, you simply try to approach from the air with either Uair or Bair.
Fighting on the ground is kinda pointless because he can grab you out of every move or hit you with a smash.
The easiest way to kill Olimar is gimping, try to grab or Utilt him near the ledge and **** him with Bair/Uair/Knee. Once you got him of the stage and he's not able to get back with his 2nd jump Olimar is pretty much dead, because he can't sweetspot the ledge with UpB when theres somebody else on the edge.
Ratio 35:65

Majora_younglink · Nov 11, 2008

Ville said:
Olimar:
I actually don't think that this matchup is so awful for falcon, you simply try to approach from the air with either Uair or Bair.
Fighting on the ground is kinda pointless because he can grab you out of every move or hit you with a smash.
The easiest way to kill Olimar is gimping, try to grab or Utilt him near the ledge and **** him with Bair/Uair/Knee. Once you got him of the stage and he's not able to get back with his 2nd jump Olimar is pretty much dead, because he can't sweetspot the ledge with UpB when theres somebody else on the edge.
Ratio 35:65

Uh, I disagree with the final ratio. At most its like 25:75 for Falcon. His FAir kind of makes approaching him in the air hard to to do. Also his Pikmin Throws stops any idea of out camping him. Also, I'm pretty sure he can throw pikmin during his jumps to block attacks and such.

Also, you'll rarely UTilt Olimar due to his grab game. The only time you'll really be using that is if you already have him thrown off the stage and you're edge guarding or something. Also in my opinion trying to grab him isn't really worth the effort since C Falc gets really little out of it on Oli, if given the choice I'd rather Boost more than not.

Roager · Nov 11, 2008

Okay, MK... doesn't even need to be said. Falcon's largely screwed in that match.
Olimar:
Falcon is not good at approaching
Oli is very good at killing approaches, between grabs, pikmin toss, and smashes. I call him a walking brick.

If Falcon manages to get through the wall of pikminz, there's a chance he could get some hits in, and maybe even get some gimps in. Oli is weak to gimping, and Falcon is (fairly) good at gimping.

Basically, the more defensive the Olimar plays, the worse off Falcon is. Considering the fact that Olimar mains tend to lean towards defense (in my experience), this is not good.

30/70 Oli's favor. I guess. I don't really know. Ratio could move around a bit, but regardless, Oli's got a serious advantage.

Majora_younglink · Nov 12, 2008

Roager said:
Okay, MK... doesn't even need to be said. Falcon's largely screwed in that match.
Olimar:
Falcon is not good at approaching
Oli is very good at killing approaches, between grabs, pikmin toss, and smashes. I call him a walking brick.

If Falcon manages to get through the wall of pikminz, there's a chance he could get some hits in, and maybe even get some gimps in. Oli is weak to gimping, and Falcon is (fairly) good at gimping.

Basically, the more defensive the Olimar plays, the worse off Falcon is. Considering the fact that Olimar mains tend to lean towards defense (in my experience), this is not good.

30/70 Oli's favor. I guess. I don't really know. Ratio could move around a bit, but regardless, Oli's got a serious advantage.

I would say that Oli has just about zero offensive game and if he does have one, I've never encountered it. Grabbing is about the best offense of his I've really found along with Throwing Pikmin. Also his smashes really aren't that good. Most of em you can outprioritize with some good timing.

Overall I agree with the assessment. Maybe you should actually try with an MK analysis though. ;D

Zeallyx · Nov 12, 2008

Majora_younglink said:
I would say that Oli has just about zero offensive game and if he does have one, I've never encountered it. Grabbing is about the best offense of his I've really found along with Throwing Pikmin. Also his smashes really aren't that good. Most of em you can outprioritize with some good timing.

Overall I agree with the assessment. Maybe you should actually try with an MK analysis though. ;D

imo you are underrating olimar
olimar is a beast >.<

his fair is a good approach imo just like his Bair
and as he destroys all falcon's approaches, an olimar player can just wait for victory

and when you finally approach, the defensive olimaster will punish hard

imo it's 75-25 olimaster's favor
maybe even 80-20

Majora_younglink · Nov 12, 2008

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
imo you are underrating olimar
olimar is a beast >.<

his fair is a good approach imo just like his Bair
and as he destroys all falcon's approaches, an olimar player can just wait for victory

and when you finally approach, the defensive olimaster will punish hard

imo it's 75-25 olimaster's favor
maybe even 80-20

I'm not. I've had plenty experience with Oli but he really lacks offense and priority to be honest. He even has trouble killing at times. And of course he destroys C Falcon's approaches, he is one of the best at ground games. But that brings me back to point. Oli's game is mainly defensive. he barely approaches which may or may not mean something.

And if you read my analysis on the matchup on the front page you'll see that I never even came close to saying the match is even so I really am not underestimating him. :/

Zeallyx · Nov 12, 2008

Majora_younglink said:
I'm not. I've had plenty experience with Oli but he really lacks offense and priority to be honest. He even has trouble killing at times. And of course he destroys C Falcon's approaches, he is one of the best at ground games. But that brings me back to point. Oli's game is mainly defensive. he barely approaches which may or may not mean something.

And if you read my analysis on the matchup on the front page you'll see that I never even came close to saying the match is even so I really am not underestimating him. :/

well yeah, I said that you where underestimating oli imo looking at your post before mine

but I trust you know what you are talkinga bout as you seem to have had more experience against olimar
but from the experience I had, you don't give olimar the credit he imo deserves for his offensive game
and how can olimar have trouble ko'ing :/
yeah some of his moves don't have that much knockback, but his Usmash and Fsmash are pretty decent imo

but like I said, I think you have had more experience, so I believe you

good topic btw

Majora_younglink · Nov 13, 2008

Well alright for the most part I'm ready to say a tentative 85:15 on MK and a 75:25 on Olimar.

These matchups are still subject to discussion for the next day or so, so if you have objections to these ratios feel free to post your reasoning in a logical post.

I'm also still looking for a good summaries on the matchup with MK if anyone wants to volunteer who feels that they have good enough experience to share.

Ayaz18 · Nov 13, 2008

if you can keep MK from becoming agressive, this match becomes tremendously easier.

for olimar SHADing and Dair are your best approach options

Majora_younglink · Nov 14, 2008

Ayaz18 said:
if you can keep MK from becoming agressive, this match becomes tremendously easier.

for olimar SHADing and Dair are your best approach options

I agree with both thoughts. Course DAir isn't always effective due to USmash. I like NAir personally along with a dashdanced Raptor Boost.

F5Hazardousdoc · Nov 14, 2008

Yeah, olimar's offensive game is bad. If he tries to approach falcon, falcon can easily put up a good fight, but seeing as most of olimar's kill moves are defensive in nature *usmash, throws, fsmash* Olimar's tend to just sit still. Perhaps outlasting his pikmin spam, then attacking when he's plucking more?

Majora_younglink · Nov 14, 2008

F5Hazardousdoc said:
Yeah, olimar's offensive game is bad. If he tries to approach falcon, falcon can easily put up a good fight, but seeing as most of olimar's kill moves are defensive in nature *usmash, throws, fsmash* Olimar's tend to just sit still. Perhaps outlasting his pikmin spam, then attacking when he's plucking more?

Basically yes. Most of the match in my opinion is just breaking through his defense, and from there keeping him from putting back his defense.

The more you get Olimar moving, the less of an advantage he has due to his defensive nature.

Also matchups get put up tomorrow.
STILL looking for a good summary on MK's matchup.

Majora_younglink · Nov 15, 2008

So yeh. The first week has officially ended. Final ratios have been set based on what has been said. For the most part end discussion on last weeks and move on to this week's matchup. If you do have any more input on the previous matchups or have comments on the final ratio, feel free to pm me.

Gannondorf and Boozer.

I would start it off but it's a bit early so I'd feel like I couldn't explain my points concisely enough, so someone else feel free.

Noodlehead · Nov 15, 2008

Bowser
You should always stay off the platforms when playing against a Bowser. The knee and dair is easier to pull off on him compared to other characters. His fire breath and fortress makes him harder to fight though.

Ganondorf
i think ganondorf is all about mindgames. ganon has slight advantage, but you should use falcon's speed against him. when he is recovering,if you have more damage than him, go in and make him ganoncide.its also easy to pull knees on him obviously

Majora_younglink · Nov 16, 2008

Gah, did no one reply the whole day other than Noodle?

Guess I have to say something or risk the thread dying. To be honest I have little Gannondorf experience so I'll just list some of the knowns.

Okay I'll start with Gannondorf. For the most part he plays a lot like Falcon but slower so take that to your advantage. He is open for punishment after most of his moves due to how slow he is and C Falcon's game is a lot about punishing . A lot of his moves can become kill moves so he can KO C Falc easier than a lot of the cast so be careful at higher percentages. I've also heard his F Smash has as much lag as C Falcon's so be aware of that. He's a pretty big target so he can be knee'd and such pretty easily. Also he can tech chase you with Shadow Choke so be aware of that as well. He's pretty heavy so he can be juggled and such but watch out for his Dair as it can spike you at pretty much any percent so in my opinion if you get in the air with Gannondorf always try to stay away from his Dair range or be at risk from getting spiked. The match is basically even but since C Falc flourishes in punishing I'd give the match a tentative... 55:45 in Captain Falcon's favor.

Noodlehead · Nov 16, 2008

falcon boards are dying, so i guess its pointless to have a discussion if only 1 person is participating. im going to just let stage discussion die out too

edit:ganon-i find it pretty hard to punish ganon, he either shield-grabs,ftilt,or jabs
you should watch out for his spike, it's too rediculous. usually ganons edgeguards with u-tilt, ehich is very laggy but the range is outrageous

__V · Nov 16, 2008

If I say that Falcon has an advantage over Bowser, and a slight advantage/even matchup with Ganon, I'll get flamed. Why post?

Falcon has combos against really large/heavy characters. Uair/Bair are moves that Bowser really can't punish if executed correctly, you can gimp him with a flubbed knee, or Falcon Kick straight off the stage. The only thing he really has over Falcon is his fire breath, that's REALLY a pain.

Ganondorf is tall, and Falcon is fast. Unless you're extremely readable, you should be able to feint and then attack him during his cooldown. Ganon is incredibly easy to gimp/stagespike. However, since Ganon's Dair and Sparta Kick **** CF, I'm tempted to call this even.

Quit frankly, Falcon has an even/advantage matchup against every heavyweight/large character except for Snake and Dedede.

Ville · Nov 16, 2008

'Bout Ganondorf:
You guys seem to forget that good ol' ganny also relies on punishing and stuff, so this is pretty much not a + for falcon.
He indeed is slower and not very resitant to juggling.
Try to stay very, very defensive cuz' he can kill at ridicolous %, mainly his Dair.
Use Uair and Jab a lot.

'Bout Boozer:
Bowser is easy, he is fat and large, one of the matchups I'd consider Ok for Falcon.

Majora_younglink · Nov 16, 2008

__V said:
If I say that Falcon has an advantage over Bowser, and a slight advantage/even matchup with Ganon, I'll get flamed. Why post?

The point of these threads is to discuss the matchups and see how others view the matchups and hopefully learn from each other and make a good final judgement on it. No one should be afraid to put in their two cents. :/

If someone does flame in a matchup thread and the person they're flaming at least tried to make an intelligent and informed post, they have no place in the discussion in my opinion.

Ville said:
'Bout Ganondorf:
You guys seem to forget that good ol' ganny also relies on punishing and stuff, so this is pretty much not a + for falcon.

He may, but C Falcon should do it to Gannondorf a lot more than the reverse due to their huge difference in speed.

Zeallyx · Nov 16, 2008

Noodlehead said:
falcon boards are dying, so i guess its pointless to have a discussion if only 1 person is participating. im going to just let stage discussion die out too

edit:ganon-i find it pretty hard to punish ganon, he either shield-grabs,ftilt,or jabs
you should watch out for his spike, it's too rediculous. usually ganons edgeguards with u-tilt, ehich is very laggy but the range is outrageous

the boards aren't dying
we have alot of regualr posters, like ayaz, face124, wogrim, you noodle, me and alot of newer users

so keep bumping your own topics, there will be responses (the 'online' time of the posters seems to vary alot, so it might take awhile, but there will be posts)

for the matchups:
Ganondorf - Imo falcon is better than ganondorf. Ganondorf may more AT's and whatnot, but still I think falcon has the upper hand pure because falcon's faster.
With these characters beeing so much alike, moveset wise, I think falcon's speed makes him just a little better. (like 55-45, falcon's favor)
Still thunderstorms can hurt alot just like ganny's techchased side b, but when you just lure out attacks, I think falcon wins. (because when both players do, falcon can punish better in theory, because of his speed) Also, as ganondorf is one of the taller characters, he's easier to knee than most others. And the knee is something falcon has and ganny lacks :D
So in short:
As Falcon and ganny both seem to focus on punishing, I think falcon has the upper hand because of his speed (and his knee lol)

Bowser - Bowser can be quite a pain, because of his fire breath and overall priority, but because of bowsers slower moves, he is very punishable. When you (the falcon player) keep your distance and try to lure out attacks to punish, you'll be good. But when the bowser does the same, it gets harder

In that situation, the SH knee (lagless landing) approach is your friend, as bowser is a big target (So sweetspotting the knee is easier on him)
Falcon kick can also work as an aproach, and raptor boost from time to time (like when bowser lands from an arial)
Another thing I like to say:
When stuck in fire breath: up b for your life XD

I don't know everything about these characters yet, but I hope I can contribute to this topic with the knowledge I do posses

Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

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Subarashii!

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Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Heaven Piercer

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Cadet

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Fox mains get all the girlz

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Fox mains get all the girlz

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Smash Ace

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Fox mains get all the girlz

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Fox mains get all the girlz

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Smash Champion

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Smash Ace

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Smash Lord

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Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

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Fox mains get all the girlz

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