Pit Matchup Discussion - King Dedede. (MT linked)

D...D...D

Pretty fun matchup and whats not to like about him? He's a fat Penguin with a big hammer.

Maniaclyrasist said:

King Dedede



Pros and Cons from the King Dedede Boards.

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[B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Pros[/COLOR][/B]

Pros:
- Heavyweight character
- Excellent Recovery
- Great Projectile
- Incredibly Strong
- High Priority Moves
- Great Aerials
- Insane grabbing game
- Great Range
= Chaingrab on more than half the characters

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[B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Cons[/COLOR][/B]

Cons:
- Slow Moving
- Big Target
- Smashes are a bit slow

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How does Pit fair against the self-proclaimed King?

Discuss!!!

For DDD you need to take advantage, of he size spam from a far, and when in close combat use your nair and ^air alot to rack up damage then because of his size a bair shouldn't be to hard to ping. I would say the match is in DDD's favor though, as he can gimp wings better then most, his weight and recovery makes him very hard for Pit to kill, reach is father then Pits or just as far. Pit has alot of trouble with the smaller members of the cast and anyone with multi jumps is a bit hard so take adavantage of his size but you will have trouble killing him.

Stage wise I would say pick anywhere where you wont be chain grabbed alot with small serfaces so he can't keep it up.

edit: lol pix

Personally I wouldn't say Dedede has much of an advantage if any at all in this matchup. Pit has an extremely easy time landing hits on DDD due to his size and DDDs poor horizontal recovery allows Pit to gimp him fairly easily despite his multiple jumps. It's also fairly easy to take out most of his midair jumps with your arrows because of this.

Pit can CG DDD to roughly 40% and follow up with a Nair or Uair for a decent set of damage at the beginning of a stock however, DDDs CG on Pit is fairly annoying and will rack up more damage during the course of the match but counter picking stages like Jungle Japes and Nofair will help put a stop to that.

Here's what we had on the old thread =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagemoon
1. his up b has a lot of landing lag, bair him when he returns to the stage (it sets up nice) if hes far below the stage, set yourself up at the apex of the up b (the top height) and bair him there. Never hit dedede while hes falling down or coming up, you will lose.
2. Weight is a problem. Camp the hell out of him to gain percentage. Nair is good up close (always land behind the shield or you will get grabbed) arrows are good far away. Watch for waddle dees, they eat arrows. Basically you're gonna have to have the percentage advantage. Save at least one kill move (not glide attack, killing dedede up is nearly impossible)
3. His reach isnt the main issue here, it's his priority and knock back. His bair has really good priority, it eats through arrows and is pretty spammable, it doesnt have knockback though. His uptilt comes out insanely fast and has knockback. Much like snakes... Watch out for uptilts out of shield. f-tilt and d-tilt, they have range, priority, but lack speed. These can be punished imo. The fair has slow speed and high knockback. A good dedede player will land this to kill you though. watch out when he approaches you in the air facing towards you.
4. Stage choice: You want to choose stages with either A) Floors that you can jump through (delfino, halberd) B) very little ground space (norfair, hanenbow) Or stages with high ceilings (jungle japes, hanenbow). Hanenbow fits all three in case no one else noticed. Japes is my 2nd fav stage to pick, norfair is my 3rd choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryazan
I never approach at an angle where I'm vulnerable to Inhale. Wingdashing is a good approach for this one, since it seems to make evading his chaingrab easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Bowser
I think it's his reach, and chaingrabbing that gets me.
I dont want to use Angel Ring since I am vulnerable to a Dedede Fsmash, and its hard to take him out because of his weight. He does make a good chaingrabbing target though, and is a big target for arrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanarius
edit: this is all for against dedede didn't realize the topic changed.

smash attacks:

His smash attacks are generally slow and not your main concern. Watch out for the wadle dee doo w/e thing that shoots lasers as if you get caught in that he can hit a foward smash for a low percent kill. He can chain grab you into it so watch out for that. His best kills are probably utilt and bair (best as in most practical). Watch out for those. He has a good edge game with the bairs but your playing pit so just be smart and you should be fine fighting that.
His grab is the annoying chaingrab which you can't escape until he screws up or gets to an edge (you guys had me thinking I was insane earlier in this thread). They naturally like to grab. To avoid this watch your spacing. Keep track of where you are on the map. For example realize if he lands a grab will he be able to throw you all the way across final d or just one dthrow until you end up on the edge. On the same note be very cautious of walls and walk off maps. The common candidate is delphino which has walls and walk off ledges getting grabbed into either those are basically a kill for him if he knows whats he's doing. Also to avoid his grab game I tend to jab a lot and just be very mindful he really wants to grab you.
gimping.... He's not really that gimpable he's quite fat so it tends to be difficult to kill him. I'd recommend keeping a kill move reasonably refreshed and even baiting him to be over aggressive off the edge is often a worth while risk. His up b is fairly punishable. It has super armor on the way up and spikes on the way down so be mindful of that. It has a lot of landing lag if you spot dodge the landing attack you can punish with pretty much anything you want. He may aim for the edge to beat this landing lag if so your best bet is just to beat him there.
air game. He has a good air game. One thing I've noticed a couple dedede players do is if they get up a bit they'll get o(n the edge and fair to keep you from approaching. You can arrow loop and hit him but the most that will accomplish is showing off how awesome arrow looping is. I've found your best bet is going for a bair stage spike.
Also use a lot of arrows. He's a big target so take advantage of that.



Also I think a good stage while against a DeDeDe would be Norfair. (me)

Now that I got more experience against the penguin...

Spam arrows from long range, yes, spam them. Most Dededes plan on performing the chaingrab on Pit, and you need to space yourself against him. Also, Dedede throwin Waddle Dees make him vulnerable (You can reflect the Gordo).

In close-combat, remember that N-airs are good against large targets, but still, be careful. A good Dedede can still Shieldgrab Pit even with SH N-airs. Using The Rapid jab attack could help against those who roll around a lot.

When you finally get the penguin off the stage, spam more arrows to eat his jumps up. When you see him using Up-B, you can choose either to wait til be lands, or measure the distance and time a B-air on him.

I cant say nothing else I guess.

Bumping this because I can't/won't write a summary if I get no input.

Make sure to test whether DDD is chaingrabbing correctly by Winging like crazy when d-throws you. A lot of average players do it wrong.

And conversely, DDDs make sure to shield cancel grab.

Hayang said:

Make sure to test whether DDD is chaingrabbing correctly by Winging like crazy when d-throws you. A lot of average players do it wrong.

And conversely, DDDs make sure to shield cancel grab.

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This. Although most good Dededes will SCG anyway (especially hizzulm, who is fanatical about it...I hope he doesn't see this lol).

I'm not very familiar with this matchup so all I really have to go off of is what's on paper. Basically the two characters are evenly matched. Pit wins the long range camping game with his arrows while Dedede has the mid-range game with his ftilt and Waddle Dee toss. Pit can combo Dedede very easily whereas Dedede can chaingrab Pit and kill him at least 50% lower than Pit can kill Dedede. Both characters can gimp eachother, so that point is pretty much negated. I guess Pit can gimp better in the classical sense of the word, but Dedede can always camp the ledge and grab Pit out of the upB and into his death as well as the traditional WoP.

I guess I'd have to say 55:45 in Pit's favor. 60:40 if the Dedede doesn't SCG or doesn't know the matchup at all (which I suspect many don't lol).

EDIT: In terms of stages, I'm not sure what I'd counterpick but it definitely wouldn't be FD. I'd probably ban that against Pit, in fact. I guess I might try Battlefield or Halberd.

Nice image btw. It's funny because it's true. You non-Dedede mains just haven't realized yet. Have fun burning in hell after The Rapture

my favorite method against DDD is to spam arrows until he reaches a decent amount (50%+) damage, then force him to play the aerial game. I find Nairs to work well, and I actually managed to (i have no idea how) Uair him from directly underneath on his way back down from his UpB. If I cant get him from underneath, I line myself up for an infinite A attack which gets him high enough to kill with a Fsmash or Bair.

btw if u send out u-air it will always outrange his upB. so you can safely keep spamming it . only problem though is that the upair might send the dedede to the stage. if it sends away theres basically nothing dedede can do but keep trying.

Masashi's is very good against DDD and watching him makes me think Pit has the advantage, especially when he 3-stocks pro DDD's who place high.

That's just me though, haha. Pit's chain grab and his speed/arrows just make him seem very dominant in the matchup.

bump?

10 bumps?

Well, when I was versing Mania's DDD, I found it to be fairly easy to get out of the CG if I tried to DI downward, hold sheild, and spot dodge when landing on the ground. Nair to Up-tilt shield pokes DDD farily easily and Pits Up air will usually connect since DDD has fairly slow aerials for his vertical defense and the fact that he has one of the worst air speeds. Grabbing DDD and chain grabbing him with forward throw should work a few times before you can chase with nair. He is a huge target for arrows and is easy to sweetspot bair on since he is so big. I would say DDD would have a big disadvantage in this match up.

We're discussing Pit on the Zelda boards, come give your two cents ^ ^

powuh_of_PIE said:

We're discussing Pit on the Zelda boards, come give your two cents ^ ^

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Lol There's already a thread about the Zelda discussing Pit, I don't see how you missed it o.0

a friend of mine who performs well in tornaments is a good DDD, what stands out the most is that he spams the F-tilt on the ground, abusing its range and making it tough to approach. At first i would approach while turning his F-tilts around with my mirror sheid and getting closee enough for the angel ring. Eventually, I got the hang of gliding in at the right height so that im over the hammer, AND can dodge the SH retreating waddle dee that he tries once i jump over hammer. Once i get this hit in though, i can tap A combo, use angel ring, spam N-air, etc. My problem is just getting close enough to do that, as he spams F-Tilt and B-Airs all day.

Also annoying is that he always blocked my arrows with some attack of his. Again, f-tilt on the ground and Bair in the sky.

DDD is good for pulling ridiculous combos on though. Pit's Chain grab is a good idea from 0%, maybe with a jab or two beforehand. If this is done then the chain grab will more than likely easily lead into an opportunity to land a couple more hits. However, DDD's chain grab is much more deliberate, and can become a real pain. A few people said this already but i think its important so ill say it again: Use WoI repeatedly in an attempt to escape. I really think its your best bet. We have the luxury of using something easier than a spotdodge, its distracting and can lead into a strong counterattack to punish a slipped chain grab (WoI divebomb Bair)

Edgeguarding DDD shouldnt be a problem in this matchup, nor should getting B-airs off. He is one of the few characters who i would often try to catch with the B-air while he is on the ground. Waddle dees can get annoying if you let them, i usually just ignore them though. I tend to use WoI alot in this match. Pit's F-tilt also comes in handy in this match up, so does the angelic step. In fact, most ATs will help the cause in this match up. While using the wings alot, i also found myself being as random and unpredictable as possible (more so than usual). Of course though, keep arrows coming out on the steady 8-)

I think its 55-45 Pit's match

Chaingrabbing Dedede is always risky since he can get you too, and especially when his D-throw has a fixed knockback.
Dont Ignore a Waddle Dee, cant trust them. One moment u might be doing something and the next think u know they randomly do their little jump attack and it does kill at about 160%

DemonicTrilogy said:

Well, when I was versing Mania's DDD, I found it to be fairly easy to get out of the CG if I tried to DI downward, hold sheild, and spot dodge when landing on the ground.

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I don't think I was doing it correctly, possibly due to the online lag, but the DDD boards claim Pit is one of the characters that cannot escape from it if used properly. Although for some reason when we were playing it felt like if you were being put slightly out of range each time which gave you enough time to spot dodge, but again i'm not sure.

Ya pit can't get out his weight is just where D3 wants it, if done inproperly you might be able to escape with WoI, but if you plan on playing in a competitive seen don't count on it.

Anyway im not sure if I said it before, but nair and ^air are what you want for this fight, they rack up so much damage againt some1 his size and wont degrade your kill moves and to kill D3 you will want a full recharged fair, bair or Fsmash just to have a chance against his weight and recovery.

Anything else of note? If not then you can expect the match summary in the next 2 or so days

D3 Has A Ridiculous Spot Dodge!

Blah...summary done.

The King is here!

King Dedede has a fair amount of advantages that lend to his aid in most matchups, namely his Dthrow Chain Grab, his inability to be KOed at low percentages and in turn his ability to KO opponents at relatively low percentages as well as his excellent recovery.
First of all let’s deal with his grab game. Dedede has a Chain Grab on most of the cast with his Dthrow, Pit included. It is a bit harder for Dedede to Dthrow Pit in comparison to most of the cast but in the higher echelons of play this factor is almost negligible and if you get grabbed, expect a series of Dthrows to follow in quick succession. After reaching the edge of the stage with the Chain Grab, Dedede has a number of options that will result in him piling on even more damage such as his Bthrow which deals an impressive 16%, his Fthrow which deals 13%, Ftilt and Dtilt which can kill at higher percentages. You’re best option in the immortal words of which ever smasher said it first is simply “Don’t get grabbed”. Obviously preventing a grab against Dedede for an entire game is improbable due to his ridiculous grab range and the fact that you have to get close to him at some time to actually kill him but Pit has a fair amount of options that will lessen his chances of being grabbed while still being able to approach and significantly damage Dedede. It should be of note however that Pit actually has his own Chain Grab against Dedede with repeated Fthrows to about 40%, which makes for a nice way to rack up some damage at the beginning of a stock, but be careful getting close enough to grab Dedede least you switch roles and become the one on the end of a Chain Grab.

As far as approaching is concerned SH Nair is going to be to your most effective one. It can shield poke larger targets such as Dedede and if you DI over Dedede’s head or retreat with it then it becomes almost impossible for him to retaliate with a grab. Another option is FH Dair. When used with a full hop Dair becomes impossible to shield grab, especially since you can retreat with other aerials but take care not to SH Dair as you can and will be grabbed after it. Also make sure you space yourself well to avoid a possible Utilt, which can kill Pit at relatively low percentages.

While on the subject of kill moves it should be noted that Dedede has quite a few ways in which he can dispose of his opponents. His most common and practical way of killing is hit Utilt, which comes out pretty quickly and can be used to punish missed or shielded aerials. His Dsmash and Usmash are also killers but they have considerable start up and cool down lag so shield and punish each accordingly. Dedede’s Bair can also be used as a kill move at higher percentages and he can also WOP with it at lower ones. Through air dodging and your multiple jumps it should be relatively easy for Pit to avoid being killed via a WOP but take care to avoid Dedede’s Fair as well as it is somewhat slow on start up but it has good knockback. There is also the option of his Fsmash, Jet Hammer and his Dash attack, but they are abysmally slow and easily telegraphed, so they shouldn’t pose much of a threat.

As you can see Dedede has a myriad of moves that can take Pit out but Pit on the other hand is at somewhat of a loss when it comes to actually trying to KO Dedede due to his heavy weight. However all is not lost as Pit can rack up damage on Dedede pretty fast so more or less both characters should be KOing each other around the same time provided you don’t let Dedede rack up too much damage. Pit also has the option of gimping Dedede off stage as Dedede has a fairly poor horizontal recovery so its easy to rack up damage and eat his jumps with your arrows when he is trying to recover as well as WOP him with Fairs of your own.
Overall it’s not too hard of a match for Pit and doing well in this matchup is mostly going to be about your spacing, avoiding his grabs whilst retaliating with attacks of your own, attempting to gimp Dedede where possible and just never allowing Dedede to maintain momentum in this matchup.

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I thought I posted this already but I guess not. EDIT: I did post it, but in the wrong thread. Whoops.
The King Dedede boards are discussing the Pit matchup this week and we'd appreciate it if you contributed. Here's a link to the thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600
Any contributions are greatly appreciated.

i bet rogue pit would know a lot since he plays M2K alot