Chaingrab to spike : 0-to-death list ~ Work In Progress

Blad01 · Nov 12, 2008

So, chaingrab to spike is self-explenatory, you chaingrab, then once arrived on a side of the stage, buffer a dash, and finally SH Dair.

I compiled a list of characters on who this is a 0-to-death.

Characters that can't come back on the stage

Bowser
Link
Mario*

Characters that can't come back on the stage if edgehogged

Ganondorf*
Falco
Wolf
Ice Climbers (Popo or Nana)
Diddy Kong
Marth¤
Ness*
Ike
Zero Suit Samus¤
Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle*, Ivysaur*)
Olimar*

Characters that always can come back if edgehogged

Meta Knight
Snake*
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch*
Wario
Lucario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong*
Ice Climbers
Pit
Toon Link
Fox
Sheik
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer (Charizard)
Yoshi
Sonic
Captain Falcon

*Need more testings / precisions
¤Can escape the chaingrab

This is still in progress

ShadowX718 · Nov 12, 2008

Hmmm... You can't chaingrab all those people.... espically ppl like small people like Olimar and kirby

SwordmasterXXXI · Nov 12, 2008

Marth can escape the chain grab with UpB btw. Just pointing that out............

TechnoMonster · Nov 12, 2008

Falco and Wolf can walljump recover on many stages with good DI as well but it's very tight and % dependant on stages like FD.

8AngeL8 · Nov 12, 2008

I have to ask my DK friend how he DI's, but once he figured it out, I've never been able to 0-to-death him. I've gotten hundreds of full 40% CG -> spikes off and he hasn't died from any of them.

ftl · Nov 12, 2008

You should take off that list people that you can't CG->spike. Like Marth.

Are you testing this on CPUs?

wangston · Nov 12, 2008

Who are you testing this on? DK comes back. Jump cancel the MS then up b and he will come back, his up b last for ever and it's hard to edge guards. Then chain grab to speak isn't as deadly as people think it is, just keep a level head jump cancel and up and you will be fine unless you are wolf or falco.

Marcbri · Nov 12, 2008

DK comes back easily if he meteor cancels right even if you dair him at 40-50%

Also I'm almost sure Ganon can't come back if he has enough %

that's all I can remember now D:

edit:

Hmmm... You can't chaingrab all those people.... espically ppl like small people like Olimar and kirby

You can chaingrab Olimar with perfect timing

LuigiKing · Nov 12, 2008

Luigi can't get chaingrabbed because hes too slippery. So I laugh at all of the characters who get owned by this!

*does a dance*

Blad01 · Nov 12, 2008

To everyone : I'm not testing this on CPU, i began it with what i remembered ^^

DK : I didn't know that DK could come back, meh :/

Ganondorf : Needs more testing (on friends), but i think he can DI to the right, "meteor cancel", and Up B to get back on the ledge. The CPU get caught under the stage but that doesn't mean anything

Marth : Marth can escape by Up B. That doesn't mean this doesn't work on him, you just need some mindgames ^^ I'm gonna add a ¤ for the characters that can actually escape the chaingrab with a move (Marth, ZSS apparently).

Thanks everyone for the input

Anyone knows if we can edgehog tether recoveries rapidly enough ?

Blistering Speed · Nov 12, 2008

Aren't characters in hitsunat all times with the CG if done correctly, so it's just a fallacy that Marth can escape ?

8AngeL8 · Nov 12, 2008

^No, they're out of hitstun for a tiny window, only a few frames. It just so happens that Marth's Up-B comes out ridiculously fast, like 1 frame or something. He can most definitely escape it.

Denzi · Nov 12, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
^No, they're out of hitstun for a tiny window, only a few frames. It just so happens that Marth's Up-B comes out ridiculously fast, like 1 frame or something. He can most definitely escape it.

The other problem is that he has invincibility for the first 5 frames, so yeah, no CG'ing him. The best Falco can do is predict the up B and punish Marth on landing.

ftl · Nov 12, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
^No, they're out of hitstun for a tiny window, only a few frames. It just so happens that Marth's Up-B comes out ridiculously fast, like 1 frame or something. He can most definitely escape it.

Marth's up-b has invincibility for frames 1-5, I think, and then a hitbox on frame 6, so no CG for us

M.J.B · Nov 12, 2008

Blad01 said:
So, chaingrab to spike is self-explenatory, you chaingrab, then once arrived on a side of the stage, buffer a dash, and finally SH Dair.

I compiled a list of characters on who this is a 0-to-death.

Characters that can't come back on the stage

Bowser
Link
Mario*

Characters that can't come back on the stage if edgehogged

Ganondorf*
Falco
Wolf
Ice Climbers (Popo or Nana)
Diddy Kong
Marth¤
Ness*
Ike
Zero Suit Samus¤
Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle*, Ivysaur*)
Olimar*

Characters that always can come back if edgehogged

Meta Knight
Snake*
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch*
Wario
Lucario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong*
Ice Climbers
Pit
Toon Link
Fox
Sheik
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer (Charizard)
Yoshi
Sonic
Captain Falcon

*Need more testings / precisions

This is still in progress

Where's Kirby?

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

kirby cant be cg'ed, so not point putting him on the list.

Carbonated · Nov 12, 2008

Blad01 said:
So, chaingrab to spike is self-explenatory, you chaingrab, then once arrived on a side of the stage, buffer a dash, and finally SH Dair.

I compiled a list of characters on who this is a 0-to-death.

Characters that can't come back on the stage

Bowser
Link
Mario*

Characters that can't come back on the stage if edgehogged

Ganondorf*
Falco
Wolf
Ice Climbers (Popo or Nana)
Diddy Kong
Marth¤
Ness*
Ike
Zero Suit Samus¤
Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle*, Ivysaur*)
Olimar*

Characters that always can come back if edgehogged

Meta Knight
Snake*
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch*
Wario
Lucario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong*
Ice Climbers
Pit
Toon Link
Fox
Sheik
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer (Charizard)
Yoshi
Sonic
Captain Falcon

*Need more testings / precisions

This is still in progress

Thing is, most of them can be stage spiked after if you b air fast fall. But it can be kind of risky.

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

Carbonated said:
Thing is, most of them can be stage spiked after if you b air fast fall. But it can be kind of risky.

no...i need to test it but i think by the time your in range for a bair they regain control, so they can airdodge/ hit you with a faster or higher priority attack. it will probably work only on inexperienced opponents.

M.J.B · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
kirby cant be cg'ed, so not point putting him on the list.

Oh, I wouldn't know, i don't play against any good kirbys or falcos

Carbonated · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
no...i need to test it but i think by the time your in range for a bair they regain control, so they can airdodge/ hit you with a faster or higher priority attack. it will probably work only on inexperienced opponents.

Guess I've been playing my friends to long ._. But it does work depending on their revoery. Take snake for example, his 2nd jump doesn't give him that much height so once he Up b's he is open for an attack.

But yeah, some of them just won't work, mainly flyers and recoveries where they move really quick or disappear.

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

Carbonated said:
Guess I've been playing my friends to long ._. But it does work depending on their revoery. Take snake for example, his 2nd jump doesn't give him that much height so once he Up b's he is open for an attack.

But yeah, some of them just won't work, mainly flyers and recoveries where they move really quick or disappear.

well...youre right, but most GOOD snakes will use up b and quickly fly up and out of range. plus, a stage spike is less reliable than a regular spike, why count on it?

Carbonated · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
well...youre right, but most GOOD snakes will use up b and quickly fly up and out of range. plus, a stage spike is less reliable than a regular spike, why count on it?

Meh true. I don't like trying to spike near the bottom. I have a bad habit of suiciding around that point. But that's just me.

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

Carbonated said:
Meh true. I don't like trying to spike near the bottom. I have a bad habit of suiciding around that point. But that's just me.

lol i use to have that problem. the easy solution (at least it worked perfectly for me) was only using 1 jump to spike, then use the 2nd jump to edgeguard or recover.

8AngeL8 · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
kirby cant be cg'ed, so not point putting him on the list.

You can chain him if you do the Dthrow -> FFDair chain instead of the regular grab chain. You get two throws and dairs for sure, sometimes a third. That's enough to build damage and potentially spike on the third one. It won't actually kill, but it's a fallacy to say that you can't chain-grab kirby.

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
You can chain him if you do the Dthrow -> FFDair chain instead of the regular grab chain. You get two throws and dairs for sure, sometimes a third. That's enough to build damage and potentially spike on the third one. It won't actually kill, but it's a fallacy to say that you can't chain-grab kirby.

interesting. i dont play too many kirbys so i wouldnt know too much. lol.

Carbonated · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
lol i use to have that problem. the easy solution (at least it worked perfectly for me) was only using 1 jump to spike, then use the 2nd jump to edgeguard or recover.

When I try to spike off stage, I usually come from below and use my second jump to get above or around the same height then spike. Once they are below the stage I just give up with trying to spike at that point and just b air. Easier for me.

XxBlackxX · Nov 12, 2008

Carbonated said:
When I try to spike off stage, I usually come from below and use my second jump to get above or around the same height then spike. Once they are below the stage I just give up with trying to spike at that point and just b air. Easier for me.

uh...you ARE talking about the follow-up to cg's right? if so, then dash->sh should put you above an opponent, in position to spike.

Carbonated · Nov 12, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
uh...you ARE talking about the follow-up to cg's right? if so, then dash->sh should put you above an opponent, in position to spike.

No there I was just talking about spiking in general. But I can't really cg -> spike on people like fox who don't have a knock back that is somewhat upwards.

XxBlackxX · Nov 13, 2008

Carbonated said:
No there I was just talking about spiking in general. But I can't really cg -> spike on people like fox who don't have a knock back that is somewhat upwards.

spiking in general? ok so if youre having trouble recovering, make it a rule not to use up both jumps. after all, a spike isnt worth your stock, even if they die because then it would be 1 stock lost on each side.
and to get better, practice practice, practice

Pearl Floatzel · Nov 13, 2008

Ness can easily second jump back to the stage and if needed PKT2 back onto it. At the percentages that you can chainspike him, he should be able to jump back.

ShadowX718 · Nov 13, 2008

LuigiKing said:
Luigi can't get chaingrabbed because hes too slippery. So I laugh at all of the characters who get owned by this!

*does a dance*

You fail.
Of course he can be chain grabbed. Unfortunately....
This kid named Thee chain grabbed my Luigi plenty of times...

Gmoney_ · Nov 13, 2008

ShadowX718 said:
You fail.
Of course he can be chain grabbed. Unfortunately....
This kid named Thee chain grabbed my Luigi plenty of times...

Well u're kinda wrong there. it might work on you, but not a smart luigi player. luigi can get out of the CG at around 10-15% if im correct. He just have to use his nair. But if the falco is expecting this, he can shieldgrab him to continue the CG. Conclusion: Luigi can get out of a CG.

ShadowX718 · Nov 13, 2008

Gmoney_ said:
Well u're kinda wrong there. it might work on you, but not a smart luigi player. luigi can get out of the CG at around 10-15% if im correct. He just have to use his nair. But if the falco is expecting this, he can shieldgrab him to continue the CG. Conclusion: Luigi can get out of a CG.

Smart Luigi user? O Rly? I'm insulted. I main Luigi and have a dam good one too.
I know a lot about Luigi and I was just proving that kid's comment "Luigi CAN'T get CG" wrong.

Also, not from a pro DDD user, for Falco... you may escape at a certain percent, but from a pro DDD chaingrabber you will see its VERY HARD-almost impossible to get out of.
We can do a match and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

Zephramrill · Nov 13, 2008

ShadowX718 said:
Smart Luigi user? O Rly? I'm insulted. I main Luigi and have a dam good one too.
I know a lot about Luigi and I was just proving that kid's comment "Luigi CAN'T get CG" wrong.

Also, not from a pro DDD user, for Falco... you may escape at a certain percent, but from a pro DDD chaingrabber you will see its VERY HARD-almost impossible to get out of.
We can do a match and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

we are talking about falco, and falco cannot chaingrab luigi past 20% if the luigi player is competent at escaping.

Also Ivysaur cannot be spiked, up+b spamming will grab the ledge every time. Once hes over 100 then maybe. (But at that point it isnt a CG setup)

J4pu · Nov 13, 2008

If the player is smart it is impossible to edge-hog characters with an UpB and a tether.
If you edge-hog early you get hit by UpB after invincibility wears off, if you edge-hog late they already tethered the edge.

Gaussis · Nov 13, 2008

Pearl Floatzel said:
Ness can easily second jump back to the stage and if needed PKT2 back onto it. At the percentages that you can chainspike him, he should be able to jump back.

^This.

And to add to this, Ness is pretty hard to edgehog. Ness players expecting this always angle themselves to land on the stage if you are edgehogging, and the ledge if you aren't.

ShadowX718 · Nov 14, 2008

Lol, I find it easy to edgehog Ness cuz of his poor DI after the PK thunder boost.

gunterrsmash01 · Nov 16, 2008

i THINK mario can come back on the stage if u dont edgehog

XxBlackxX · Nov 16, 2008

ozz3000 said:
i THINK mario can come back on the stage if u dont edgehog

i think almost everyone can. that's why we always follow-up a spike with edgehog unless the spiked character beats you in edge games or has an insane recovery (MK, ROB, etc.)

Teran · Nov 16, 2008

Just a quick mention, ZSS can escape the chaingrab at ~30% with her down B.

Chaingrab to spike : 0-to-death list ~ Work In Progress

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