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"The Best and Fairest" Tournament System - The answer to MK's dominance.

Shaya

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"The different rule set"
Point 1.0 is a general summary, and probably all you need to get a gist of what I'm saying here. Everything else is to explain aspects further and also to begin discussion of it's usefulness. 3.3 should be skimmed too, if your only purpose is to 'skim'.

0.0 Introduction
(You probably don’t need to read this, as it contains *****ing)

The scene consists of great players, within the scope of a game which has a wide array of different characters, both facets sharing the range from bad to absolutely superb.

I believe the scene, especially from an outside view, which is primarily shaped by America is the epitome of competitiveness due to the prospect of large payouts. Great players who wish to do well are forced to only be commended on their efforts for using ’this’ character, but rarely if EVER succeed; the competitive change to better characters or continue to be commended on their efforts while losing.

In a scene which is up in arms over metaknight, a character seemingly making all others unviable in a competitive nature, an argument (such as one from Overswarm) is “he is a disease, ban him”.

I as a tournament organiser came up with a solution that I have implemented within my region to combat this ‘disease’ (that spreads far beyond Metaknight). I had a friend of mine, a member of the Smash Back Room present it to them (the SBR), but from my understanding it was completely ignored indefinitely. My chagrin can be insinuated from human nature and the tone of this post, but I felt public scrutiny and discussion is worth trying harder for.

The smash back room rule set seemingly has done nothing but overpower a character like Metaknight instead of attempting to even the playing field. Umbreon’s most recent rule set goes even further to be completely skewed and bias towards Meta - perhaps the solution is to make it so much better for MK that the tides will turn for wanting to ban him? I say this as the CP list has absolutely no stages MK does not do extremely well on anyway. The meta rule set for the games themselves is not what I wish to change, however. Whatever the appendages, it can’t be seen to make it ‘fairer’, unless you want to add items and force Meta to play on Shadow Moses (lol).

1.0 The New System

Without further ado, my rule set redefines the definition of a tournament. I call it the ‘Best and Fairest System’ or to be less ambiguous the ‘Tier Tournament System’. A tournament system that promotes further the better player winning other than the better character. The tier tournament consists of three ‘normal’ tournaments/events, where each event has only restrictions on character usage. As you can guess, these are called High, Middle and Low.

“High” allows the usage of 100% of characters.
“Middle” restricts the character usage to remove those considered unique to ‘High’.
“Low” similarly disallows the ‘unique’ characters from both high and middle.

In a ‘perfect world‘, this would mean that High has 36 characters usable, Middle 24 and Low 12.
At the point I had this presented to the SBR it was ‘set in stone’ this way. But there have been alterations since. Which will be covered later (2.1).

Each event is played out with the character restrictions in place in a similar fashion to any other tournament. With perhaps required alterations for timing purposes. Each event once finalised gives points based on their placement - first being given one, second being given two, etc. - and the final order of winners for the day are given by a list ordered from lowest score to highest (2.4 for more).

What this system is, is it allows for a higher allowance for the ‘best player’ to win, other than the individual player who is best with a singular character.

1.1 System Reflection

Ever since I came up with this idea, I have created a similar Character Ranking List to that of Ankoku for just my region, to distinguish which characters in our region are our ‘high’ ‘middle’ and ‘low’ tiered.
My love of this and all that is related is apparent to those who converse with me; as in my region particularly individual characters are underrepresented (D3 is mid/low, Diddy low, etc). For every tournament I now run I am excited about using a new character and pushing them up the ‘ladder’. And the same feeling spreads to others in the community as they anticipate the next opportunity to use their favourite characters in a properly competitive environment.

2.0 Implementation

2.1 Definition of High, Mid, Low

As this tournament system relies heavily on what “High” “Middle” and “Low” are, I initially decided to leave it ambiguous, giving just “high unique is 12, mid unique is 12, low unique is 12”. I ran the first iteration of this system using this; and while it worked the new implementation feels to be much ‘more’ everything.

Using magic numbers perhaps derived from tournament payouts, coinciding with the Character Rank List I created have decided that “High” would be the characters making up 60% of tournament points, 40% for middle and 10% for low. Below is an example of such a distinct definition of high, mid and low using Ankoku‘s List:

High (100.00%)
Meta Knight 1233.78 [26.89%], Snake 516.03 [11.24%], King Dedede 278.41 [6.06%], Wario 243.99 [5.31%], Mr. Game & Watch 220.69 [4.81%], Marth 205.67 [4.48%]

Middle (41.17%)
Olimar 160.07 [3.48%], Lucario 155.25 [3.38%], R.O.B. 150.54 [3.28%], Falco 148.11 [3.22%], Diddy Kong 132.95 [2.89%], Kirby 129.69 [2.82%], Donkey Kong 112.21 [2.44%], Peach 105.95 [2.30%], Pikachu 93.90 [2.04%], Ice Climbers 92.22 [2.01%], Wolf 89.65 [1.95%], Sonic 81.45 [1.77%]

Low (9.51%)
Zelda/Sheik 61.67 [1.34%], Zero Suit Samus 58.4 [1.27%], Pit 57.73 [1.25%], Toon Link 48.45 [1.05%], Luigi 39.77 [0.86%], Bowser 29.19 [0.63%], Fox 28.44 [0.62%], Ike 26.17 [0.57%], Mario 18.15 [0.39%], Yoshi 14.16 [0.30%], Captain Falcon 13.12 [0.28%], Lucas 11.35 [0.24%], Link 7.96 [0.17%], Ness 7.95 [0.17%], Pokemon Trainer 5.83 [0.12%], Jigglypuff 4.28 [0.09%], Samus 2.62 [0.05%], Ganondorf 1.24 [0.02%]

As can be noted, the High consists of only 6 characters, middle of 12 characters and low consists of 18 characters. Literally (by chance) it’s 1:2:3 ratio. This means that there is quite a large array of character usages available in low, compared to initially being the bracket with a third of a cast only now is 50% of it.

2.2 Character Rank List

I have stated multiple times that I used my own list specifically for my region, I feel that any secluded region should do something similar.

Points allocated for the top 8 of middle and low should not be given the priority of points as that of High. This promotes a person using their ‘low or middle’ in higher brackets if they feel such patriotism. Just like defining high middle and low, the points allocated should be rationed in a similar fashion. As in the top 8 characters from middle would only receive 40% of the points, and the top 8 of low would only receive 10% points when allocating to the ’list’.

2.3 “On the Day”

The way the individual events (high, middle and low) are played are completely dependant on the Tournament Organiser, and would be decided upon by time allowances among other things.

Examples would be that all three events are double elimination, all three single, or perhaps High double and both middle and low as single elimination.

2.4 Determination of the Winner

The over all results of a Tier Tournament are decided by a point system. Points are awarded to each contestant based on each player’s results in the individual event.

The points allocated go in a reversed order (kind of like Golf, and other sports determine rankings this way as well) where in an individual event a player gets points corresponding directly to their placement. For example, the player coming first in an event would gain one point, second would gain two, etcetera .

The over all order of player’s placement in the tournament is determined by an ordered list of lowest to highest points.

E.g.
High Tier
1 Mew2King (Metaknight)
2 Ken (Marth)
3 Vyse (Marth)
4 Shaya (Marth)
5 Aarosmashguy (Totally Marth)
6 Emblem Lord (Marth)
7 Kizzu (Marth)
8 RandomKidKnownAsMetaKnightLover (Metaknight)

Mid Tier
1. Mew2King (Not MK)
2. Aarosmashguy (Who cares)
3. MetaKnightLoverNowLovesOlimar
4. RandomKid1
5. Shaya
6. Steel2nd
7. Vyse
8. Kizzu

Low Tier
1. Aarosmashguy
2. Magikarp
3. Ganon4toptierLover
4. RandomKid1
5. Kizzu
6. Shaya
7. Ken
8. Mew2King

To determine the over all winner for the day, points would be to given to each player relating to the ranking, so Mew2King would be given 10 points (1st, 1st, 8th). While on the other hand Aarosmashguy, our saviour won the tournament with 8 points (5th, 2nd, 1st). Of course many of the other contestants did well too, but I can’t be bothered to count them. I think that Shaya guy probably came 3rd, maybe. If only you had practiced up a low tier character M2K!

2.5 Example of Use

The inaugural use of The Tier Tournament system was used at a Sydney tournament in Australia on the 19th of October of 2008. At this time it was using an old definition of High, Middle and Low.

High was played as a Double Elimination Event (12 chars)
Unique: Meta Knight, Snake, Pit, G&W, Kirby, Marth, Olimar, Wolf, R.O.B., Sonic, Fox, Lucario

Middle was played as a Single Elimination Event (14 chars)
Unique: Wario, Zelda, Falco, Peach, Ike, King Dedede, Pikachu, Ness, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, Link, Captain Falcon, Toon Link

Low was played as a Single Elimination event coinciding at the same time as Middle (12 chars)
Unique: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Diddy, Yoshi, Sheik, Ganondorf, Samus, ZSS, Pkmn Trainer, Jigglypuff, Lucas.

Within ‘Low’ Lucas and Diddy dominated the top 8 (With Lucas winning) and myself as Sheik coming second.
Middle again had Lucas win (the same winner as low) with a large array of characters; including Diddy, Wario, DK, Tink and myself as Falco only obtaining fifth. No other ‘low’ chars besides Lucas placed.
High, which allowed usages of all characters had “Middle” characters DK and Toon Link place, whilst the rest were ‘high’.

The over all winner of the day was the Lucas user (who won both low and middle) and came second in High. Whilst myself who placed 5th in High, 5th in Middle and 2nd in Low came third for the entire day - showing my consistency outdid the non-consistent.

As middle and low were single elimination, they were seeded using previous tournament results as a basis.

3.0 Comments/Notes

3.1 Advantages

There is no longer a reliance on Metaknight, in other words, there is no need to ban a character that isn’t directly required to win the tournament. If Metaknight’s dominance grows so large that he reaches 60% of dominance, than this ‘system’ would allow middle to be the ‘metaknightless’ scene many hoped for.

It promotes the use of underused characters to definitely allow the opportunity for an individual characters metagame to grow.

The fluidity of using a dynamic list (refer 2.2) allows/encompasses such changes in the ‘metagame’. Some may argue that Olimar being Mid would mean there is no counter to Olimar available and he would always win; if this were the case he would hence be able to transcend into High. In other words, if one singular character dominates a tier, then they would theoretically be moved to the tier above them in due course. Or the other, perhaps more favourable result is of course another character being used to counter Olimar within the that was previously unexpected.

3.2 Disadvantages

The lack or ‘need’ for matchups between the current highs and lows. While yes it would be possible for there to be no improvement metagame wise against Ganon and MK, if a player is so good with such a character they can choose to use him in high or middle as well. There is higher chance of someone eventually wanting to try out Ganon against MK through his use in low and doing well and gaining confidence then what it is now - a presumed 80:20 or worse (ish) match up where you would only be insane to counter pick such a character in a competitive tournament.

Time is of course the biggest issue. To run all three in double elimination is in theory going to take three times longer than a normal tournament. That is of course at minimum efficiency; at ‘maximum’ efficiency it is practical for the running of three double elimination to be only two times the length (due to less use of TVs for tournament matches as the day develops). Also while having all three as single elimination is essentially similar time to just one double elim, the general ‘hatred’ of single elimination within the community is always apparent. That’s why I suggest seeding, or pools.

Irregular ‘tier list’? This point would apply more to my region more than likely to an American region. Most American tournaments have payouts, for people to win they will use the best characters they have available to them. So if somehow Metaknight drops down to middle, it shouldn’t take long for him to be back up to high, no? If an overpowered character is within a ‘tier’ he should be moving himself into a higher one, through natural progression.

3.3 Why?

So… Why do we need this system? Need is definitely not the right word. It’s usefulness for the current brawl competitive scene however is easy to see.

Many people argue, and I mostly agree - that brawl is a lot less technical than melee. Brawl is so much more about the character abilities than anything else, as it would seem. Hearing it in the “Show me your news” pod cast about MK, discussing all the ‘ideas’ about the counter pick theory, etc. it seems a lot of people realise this; hence another reason why MK is so ‘bad’ - he has no counters.

This system not only doesn’t require everyone to ‘disease themselves’ by picking up Metaknight; it also allows for a competitive environment for so many other characters. It alleviates any reason to ban him, it promotes use of other characters metagames, and the competitive scene revolves around the best player more than the best character.

Why should you as a tournament organiser pick up this system?
I believe this system makes the competitive nature for brawl as a whole more enjoyable to all participants. It may cause stir in your scene as ‘holy moly’ different people start doing better, different people start to ‘rise‘ to fame, everything (well at least 2/3rds of it) is practically going to make the game completely ‘fresh‘ to many people, fresh = people happy. Any tournament organiser who wants ANY HELP what so ever for making a ‘rank list’ for their region or how, or anything like that I am happy to oblige. I constructed a ‘timing’ list of how long tournaments running would take using this system, comparing to a normal double elimination ‘day’. If people are interested in the details I’ll post them.

Why should you as a player want this system?
You get the option to play your favourite characters, ones that you’ve always been too scared to use competitively. You get to play matchups you would have never done before. You get to see tournament winners who use more than just Meta Knight, Snake or D3. You are a freer player who now has opportunity to develop the metagames of other characters. And it will make brawl live a lot longer than its currently set to due to the wider array of possibilities.
 

OmegaXXII

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Interesting read, I can't believe Mew2king is over Ken, but then again it's Brawl, also you say it's enjoyable? hmm... not sure but maybe HOBO should get in on this.
 

Asdioh

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This sounds insanely complicated.

You can compete in 3 separate tournaments? Wouldn't that take forever?

I don't know...it sounded good at first, but when you started talking about dividing it into tiers, I thought "what?"

It just seems messed up to me.

Banning MK sounds like a much easier solution, if indeed it is necessary.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I like it Shaya, although I am angry that I was not in the example. Jk, lol. It was an interesting read, I think it should be thought about for by the SBR, it is really a nice new idea.
 

Shaya

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This sounds insanely complicated.

You can compete in 3 separate tournaments? Wouldn't that take forever?

I don't know...it sounded good at first, but when you started talking about dividing it into tiers, I thought "what?"

It just seems messed up to me.

Banning MK sounds like a much easier solution, if indeed it is necessary.
Perhaps my tagline was, while actually being an appropriate answer, is not exactly 'everything' here.
While it alleviates an issue with Metaknight, this goes further beyond in helping many things.

If I was to redescribe the system it would be as follows:
Three tournaments with specific rulings.
The over all best player out of the three tournaments is declared the winner.
High would be your 'normal' tournament, while Middle Tier and Low Tier have character restrictions.


It's more complicated beyond this. Just like any rules or structure there are the building blocks/meta behind it.

Time is the biggest factor, that I did address. There are a humongous amounts of different solutions. But of course the biggest factor of running three tournaments is the ability to run them coinciding eachother. As much as a 32 man tournament has 62 sets, by the third round, televisions are starting to not be required within the round specifically for the tournament; and that's when an extra layer of starting the other 'tournament' comes in.

AltF4Warrior's topic describes this well. It does not distinctively cover the overlap idea, but it talks in the notion of time management; and how "75% of matches are played yet it's only half way time wise".

Another point to add is that, with the adding of two extra tournaments, all televisions will be running at maximum capability and many of the players will always have 'something' to do.

But yeah, any more questions are appreciated. If it still sounds complicated please tell me how/where so I can simplify it (I know that I am often confusing in my writing).

Also, sorry SOLID, I was throwing at straws for names, do you want to be RandomKid1? :)
 

Amazing Ampharos

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This system is really quite bad, especially for an immature game. Let's say I use Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, and Luigi for top, mid, and low respectively. Now, what do I do if, over time, Olimar breaks into top? Okay, I now main two top characters and a low character, and I have no real hope at all in the mid tournament unless I really want to throw my Luigi against the mid field. So, at a great personal disadvantage for quite a while, I pick up Diddy Kong for mid, but then look, Luigi broke into mid. Now I don't have anyone for low... Okay, I pick up Fox for low now... and Zero Suit Samus drops to low. Great, now I suddenly have a hard counter. The whole metagame would be super unstable, and it would be unreasonable to actually select characters to focus on. This sort of thing could be fun for a gimmick tournament, but as a standard it would be a nightmare.
 

Shaya

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Not every foreign idea is automaticly a gimmick tournament Ampharos.

And while you claim it to be unstable, I claim it to be the fastest way available to actually find the 'correct' metagame. And the point you brought up is completely dependant on how the tournament organiser runs their 'character rank list'.

If it were to use Ankokus, I'd doubt there would be much movement in the list from a singular attraction, unless it is sustained. If a character sustains doing well then it ultimately pushes the tier list to being more accurate, no?

Continuing on, the system supports the best player. Do you wish to be the known as the best player? You doing well with one character makes it assume that within its competition it is superior, hence it should move up.

What's the real reason behind your argument?
 

1048576

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I think a better idea would be to use some kind of double elimination to flesh out a top 8, then have everyone play round robin using whichever character they want. The caveat is that if you win with a low, you get 3 points, a mid gets you 2, and a high gets you 1. At the end, whoever has the most points wins. Thus, a low tier user could beat M2K's meta with only 3 wins even if M2K goes undefeated.
 

Vyse

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2.4 Determination of the Winner

The over all results of a Tier Tournament are decided by a point system. Points are awarded to each contestant based on each player’s results in the individual event.

The points allocated go in a reversed order (kind of like Golf, and other sports determine rankings this way as well) where in an individual event a player gets points corresponding directly to their placement. For example, the player coming first in an event would gain one point, second would gain two, etcetera .

The over all order of player’s placement in the tournament is determined by an ordered list of lowest to highest points.

E.g.
High Tier
1 Mew2King (Metaknight)
2 Ken (Marth)
3 Vyse (Marth)
4 Shaya (Marth)

5 Aarosmashguy (Totally Marth)
6 Emblem Lord (Marth)
7 Kizzu (Marth)
8 RandomKidKnownAsMetaKnightLover (Metaknight)

Mid Tier
1. Mew2King (Not MK)
2. Aarosmashguy (Who cares)
3. MetaKnightLoverNowLovesOlimar
4. RandomKid1
5. Shaya
6. Steel2nd
7. Vyse
8. Kizzu

Low Tier
1. Aarosmashguy
2. Magikarp
3. Ganon4toptierLover
4. RandomKid1
5. Kizzu
6. Shaya
7. Ken
8. Mew2King
He said it. Not me.
*Raises hands*

Anyway, I do support the idea and think that promoting the use of lower tiered characters is a great thing. I don't think this would however (And like many great ideas), replace the current tournament scene structure.

But it is a great alternative. Tourney hosts should trial this out at least once to see how it fares. For sure. I'll definitely look at giving it a go at some point.
 

CaliburChamp

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I'd like to mention Snake and starter stages. Practically all the starter stages there are Snake is good at which is why we need to get rid of starter stages and treat the allowed stages as counterpick stages. Since this strategy balances the game out more, we won't see MK and Snake dominating tournaments so much, although they still will, just not as much.
 

clowsui

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I'd like to mention Snake and starter stages. Practically all the starter stages there are Snake is good at which is why we need to get rid of starter stages and treat the allowed stages as counterpick stages. Since this strategy balances the game out more, we won't see MK and Snake dominating tournaments so much, although they still will, just not as much.
...so you're saying that what we should have done in Melee is abolish all the Neutral stages from the Neutral list because Fox dominates on all those stages? LOL

Also if Snake is that good at all those stages then that's because he's a good character >_>; The difference between his domination and MK domination is that MK looks to be a permanent and much more viable threat than Snake, who is countered by Falco (HEAVILY), D3 and one or two others I may be forgetting.
 

CaliburChamp

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...so you're saying that what we should have done in Melee is abolish all the Neutral stages from the Neutral list because Fox dominates on all those stages? LOL

Also if Snake is that good at all those stages then that's because he's a good character >_>; The difference between his domination and MK domination is that MK looks to be a permanent and much more viable threat than Snake, who is countered by Falco (HEAVILY), D3 and one or two others I may be forgetting.
Brawl is a different game than Melee. And most of the stages in melee were mostly platform stages, or flat areas, with the exception of being Mute City since you cant edgehog there. But in brawl, there is water stages, stages with huge walls, and stages with runs offs, and slanted stages. Also I can say MK gets countered by Falco, Yoshi, Lucario, DK, and Snake. And MK can't camp like Snake could, and Snake has the best stage control in the game with his C4 and mines, and there are some stages where MK can't stage spike you, which makes a big difference especially since thats one of the useful ways to get an early % kill with MK that way.
 

Shadow13

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I think it is better than banning MK, because if MK is banned, chances are the same problem will happen with another character (like Snake or Wario)
I think if people get more time in tournaments to use characters who are not normally used, they would get better with those characters and characters taht get no attention would go somewhere, but Amazing Ampharos has a point, if it was done, tiers still change so you could have to change mains if you had 2/3 of them in high
 

Skyshroud

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There is a major problem with this that nobody has really talked about yet (Amazing Ampharos was in the right region though). The way the current tiers work is largely based on the character's placement in the overall game. Things have the potential to change drastically once you remove some of the characters. For example, if you put Luigi in low tier, his big problem matchups are now gone, and he might dominate much in the same way as Metaknight now does because he no longer has bad matchups (don't shoot me on the specifics, just a quick example). In theory, he would be kicked up into a higher tier until he gets into the problem matchups again, where he now becomes mostly useless. Because of the drastic changes in possible matchups, this system doesn't make unviable characters particularly useful, it just gives us a different list of (un)viable characters than we had before. The tops of each individual tier would still be overplayed, and the lower parts of each tier would be underplayed. It's the nature of the beast.
 

rehab

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More empty whining about diversity, and some complex and ludicrous nonsense to fix a problem that does not exist whooooo

find the 'correct' metagame

the system supports the best player.
1)There is no such **** thing as the "correct" metagame, you take what is shoved onto your plate in a given game and its established rules and you just deal with it.

2) fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuukcccccccc no

Nobody should ever give a thought to calling you the best just because you can use nobody characters better than anybody else. The idea of M2K losing that hypothetical tournament because of a bad placing in low tier, which has always been a borderline joke tournament, after beating everybody else with their most competitive characters while using his most competitive character, doesn't make any sense at all. It's some arbitrary bull**** something like making getting a gold medal in hurdles dependant on a surprise 100 meter sack race. There is no logic in this.
 

gROYn

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Rehab I love your PM. I don't play GG though ;( Just heard it from somewhere. Several times.
 

DMG

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This does not address MK's, or any other character's, dominance.

If M2K or someone else wins the "high" event with MK, and loses the tournament overall, it doesn't change the fact that he/she won the "high" event with MK. The only thing that changes would be the characters allowed to use in the particular event.

This is almost like trying to make Brawl a form of competitive pokemon with Uber, OU/Standard, UU, NU, and the occasional BL and NE events. It would make things very complicated, and most tournaments, if nearly everyone competed in all 3 events, would not be run very quickly.

Let's say Apex used this format. Instead of most likely ending on the second day, it would last easily more than 3 days if everyone entered in all 3 events, since you would have to do pools first as well. If people dropped out of 1-2 events, you could run the tournament but now the guy who won the High event and placed well in the Mid event might lose the tournament just because he didn't have the time to also compete in Low. That's kind of stupid.

Also if you did 3 events, would you charge an entrance fee on all 3 events, or make it so that everyone has to pay a one time $30/increased entrance fee amount regardless of whether they enter all 3 events or not, or what? Cause that would be a bit unfair to people to force them to have to possibly pay another fee just to make sure they can defend their shot at winning the overall tournament.
 

JesiahTEG

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This is almost like trying to make Brawl a form of competitive pokemon with Uber, OU/Standard, UU, NU, and the occasional BL and NE events. It would make things very complicated, and most tournaments, if nearly everyone competed in all 3 events, would not be run very quickly.
What do you know about Pokemon BIATCH?
 

DMG

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DMG#931
What do you know about Pokemon BIATCH?
Well I have played it somewhat competitively since the GSC days (nothing SUPER competitive though). I know the general EV spreads you usually want for most pokemon, the trade offs of running different natures on pokemon with two or more extremely good stats (like the difference in strategy between Modest and Timid Alakazam), and I have most of the basic and even some of the more complex battle strategies down.

Biggest problem I have is forgetting what moves a pokemon can carry, especially when it comes to egg moves.
 

Jun.

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,797
Location
UC San Diego
tl;dr

seems complicated

OP most likely won't take initiative

even if he did, people won't follow

/thread
 
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