The Competitive Counter Factor Ruleset version 2.0

Mic_128 said:

Since the last topic on this confused a lot of people with the original post seeming too official with the list of "stage bans" and such posted, I feel it's a better idea to remake a new and fresh one so that people won't think that the posted list's are official, because at this point in time, there is no official stage legality lists. Nothing's been banned as yet (though there's a few that are pretty safe to assume, looking at you Hyrule, Poky, Warioware) and as soon as something is decided on, a new topic will be posted with the Smash Back Room's list.

Until then, please discus away here on what you think could be neutral, counterpick or banned. And above all, keep an open mind.

EDIT: Here's the List.

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

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Umbreon said:

The primary objective of this ruleset is to eliminate the bull**** for tournament play that tournament players shouldn't really have to deal with. The goal of this rule set is to test the skill of the players.

Stage List:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counter
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria
Distant Planet
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Pokémon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Main Rules

- Matches are 3 stock, 8 minutes. For teams, life stealing is allowed and Team Attack is ON.

- Items are set to “off” and “none”.

- At the beginning of a set, each player may strike 2 stages from the available 11. Of these, only 1 can be from the 4 Neutrals listed above. You may however choose to strike 2 counterpick stages.

- 1st match, characters are chosen with double blind picks. After that, advanced slob picks- Loser of 1st match pick stages, the winner of the 1st match picks character, then loser of 1st match picks character. Continue this as necessary until the set reaches completion. Standard sets are best of 3, finals or semi-fianls are left to the discretion of the tournament host, although best of 5 is recommended for time constraints.

- All forms of stalling are banned. Stalling- The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. This includes MK infinite cape, excessive edge stalling, or any form of stalling under the stage (DK spin, sonic charge B, snake infinite down B teching, etc).

- Any suicide KOs on the final stock resulting in sudden death will result in a loss for the user of this tactic. If it would be a suicide KO and the match screen shows a decisive winner, go with that instead. A Bowsercide final KO results in a win for the Bowser player.

- If the timer runs out, the victor is determined first by stock and then by percentage. In the event of a sudden death, both players are to suicide IMMEDIATELY. No fighting with bombs @ 300. At the results screen, regardless of what the screen says, the player with the higher DAMAGE TAKEN is the loser. No exceptions. In the result of a tie, the match will be discarded and played over, same characters and stage. For teams, if this should ever happen, add the damage taken instead for both teams.

- Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.

Side Rules

- In the event that there is a dispute for controller ports or character color choice, both players will play Rock Paper Scissors for it.

- DDD's downthrow infinite is banned. However, the chaingrab is still legal. The chaingrab is noticeably different from the infinite, as there is a dash between grabs.

- Dave's Stupid Rule: No player may choose the stage that player last won on (unless agreed upon).

- BYOC. Bring your own controller. Period. Bring 2 if you can.

- You are responsible for your own controller and name tag. Any malfunctions or errors that occur are your responsibility, so bring an extra controller if possible and always check to make sure you're using the correct settings before a match is played.

- Don't be a douche. The tournament host reserves the right at any time to make you leave the tournament. This should never happen.

- No Johns.

Special thanks for input from Marc, Mew2King, Remen, JesiahTEG. Special thanks to Seibrik for help with DDD's infinite.

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Shaya said:

"The different rule set"
Point 1.0 is a general summary, and probably all you need to get a gist of what I'm saying here. Everything else is to explain aspects further and also to begin discussion of it's usefulness. 3.3 should be skimmed too, if your only purpose is to 'skim'.

0.0 Introduction
(You probably don’t need to read this, as it contains *****ing)

The scene consists of great players, within the scope of a game which has a wide array of different characters, both facets sharing the range from bad to absolutely superb.

I believe the scene, especially from an outside view, which is primarily shaped by America is the epitome of competitiveness due to the prospect of large payouts. Great players who wish to do well are forced to only be commended on their efforts for using ’this’ character, but rarely if EVER succeed; the competitive change to better characters or continue to be commended on their efforts while losing.

In a scene which is up in arms over metaknight, a character seemingly making all others unviable in a competitive nature, an argument (such as one from Overswarm) is “he is a disease, ban him”.

I as a tournament organiser came up with a solution that I have implemented within my region to combat this ‘disease’ (that spreads far beyond Metaknight). I had a friend of mine, a member of the Smash Back Room present it to them (the SBR), but from my understanding it was completely ignored indefinitely. My chagrin can be insinuated from human nature and the tone of this post, but I felt public scrutiny and discussion is worth trying harder for.

The smash back room rule set seemingly has done nothing but overpower a character like Metaknight instead of attempting to even the playing field. Umbreon’s most recent rule set goes even further to be completely skewed and bias towards Meta - perhaps the solution is to make it so much better for MK that the tides will turn for wanting to ban him? I say this as the CP list has absolutely no stages MK does not do extremely well on anyway. The meta rule set for the games themselves is not what I wish to change, however. Whatever the appendages, it can’t be seen to make it ‘fairer’, unless you want to add items and force Meta to play on Shadow Moses (lol).

1.0 The New System

Without further ado, my rule set redefines the definition of a tournament. I call it the ‘Best and Fairest System’ or to be less ambiguous the ‘Tier Tournament System’. A tournament system that promotes further the better player winning other than the better character. The tier tournament consists of three ‘normal’ tournaments/events, where each event has only restrictions on character usage. As you can guess, these are called High, Middle and Low.

“High” allows the usage of 100% of characters.
“Middle” restricts the character usage to remove those considered unique to ‘High’.
“Low” similarly disallows the ‘unique’ characters from both high and middle.

In a ‘perfect world‘, this would mean that High has 36 characters usable, Middle 24 and Low 12.
At the point I had this presented to the SBR it was ‘set in stone’ this way. But there have been alterations since. Which will be covered later (2.1).

Each event is played out with the character restrictions in place in a similar fashion to any other tournament. With perhaps required alterations for timing purposes. Each event once finalised gives points based on their placement - first being given one, second being given two, etc. - and the final order of winners for the day are given by a list ordered from lowest score to highest (2.4 for more).

What this system is, is it allows for a higher allowance for the ‘best player’ to win, other than the individual player who is best with a singular character.

1.1 System Reflection​

Ever since I came up with this idea, I have created a similar Character Ranking List to that of Ankoku for just my region, to distinguish which characters in our region are our ‘high’ ‘middle’ and ‘low’ tiered.
My love of this and all that is related is apparent to those who converse with me; as in my region particularly individual characters are underrepresented (D3 is mid/low, Diddy low, etc). For every tournament I now run I am excited about using a new character and pushing them up the ‘ladder’. And the same feeling spreads to others in the community as they anticipate the next opportunity to use their favourite characters in a properly competitive environment.

2.0 Implementation

2.1 Definition of High, Mid, Low​

As this tournament system relies heavily on what “High” “Middle” and “Low” are, I initially decided to leave it ambiguous, giving just “high unique is 12, mid unique is 12, low unique is 12”. I ran the first iteration of this system using this; and while it worked the new implementation feels to be much ‘more’ everything.

Using magic numbers perhaps derived from tournament payouts, coinciding with the Character Rank List I created have decided that “High” would be the characters making up 60% of tournament points, 40% for middle and 10% for low. Below is an example of such a distinct definition of high, mid and low using Ankoku‘s List:

High (100.00%)
Meta Knight 1233.78 [26.89%], Snake 516.03 [11.24%], King Dedede 278.41 [6.06%], Wario 243.99 [5.31%], Mr. Game & Watch 220.69 [4.81%], Marth 205.67 [4.48%]

Middle (41.17%)
Olimar 160.07 [3.48%], Lucario 155.25 [3.38%], R.O.B. 150.54 [3.28%], Falco 148.11 [3.22%], Diddy Kong 132.95 [2.89%], Kirby 129.69 [2.82%], Donkey Kong 112.21 [2.44%], Peach 105.95 [2.30%], Pikachu 93.90 [2.04%], Ice Climbers 92.22 [2.01%], Wolf 89.65 [1.95%], Sonic 81.45 [1.77%]

Low (9.51%)
Zelda/Sheik 61.67 [1.34%], Zero Suit Samus 58.4 [1.27%], Pit 57.73 [1.25%], Toon Link 48.45 [1.05%], Luigi 39.77 [0.86%], Bowser 29.19 [0.63%], Fox 28.44 [0.62%], Ike 26.17 [0.57%], Mario 18.15 [0.39%], Yoshi 14.16 [0.30%], Captain Falcon 13.12 [0.28%], Lucas 11.35 [0.24%], Link 7.96 [0.17%], Ness 7.95 [0.17%], Pokemon Trainer 5.83 [0.12%], Jigglypuff 4.28 [0.09%], Samus 2.62 [0.05%], Ganondorf 1.24 [0.02%]

As can be noted, the High consists of only 6 characters, middle of 12 characters and low consists of 18 characters. Literally (by chance) it’s 1:2:3 ratio. This means that there is quite a large array of character usages available in low, compared to initially being the bracket with a third of a cast only now is 50% of it.

2.2 Character Rank List​

I have stated multiple times that I used my own list specifically for my region, I feel that any secluded region should do something similar.

Points allocated for the top 8 of middle and low should not be given the priority of points as that of High. This promotes a person using their ‘low or middle’ in higher brackets if they feel such patriotism. Just like defining high middle and low, the points allocated should be rationed in a similar fashion. As in the top 8 characters from middle would only receive 40% of the points, and the top 8 of low would only receive 10% points when allocating to the ’list’.

2.3 “On the Day”​

The way the individual events (high, middle and low) are played are completely dependant on the Tournament Organiser, and would be decided upon by time allowances among other things.

Examples would be that all three events are double elimination, all three single, or perhaps High double and both middle and low as single elimination.

2.4 Determination of the Winner​

The over all results of a Tier Tournament are decided by a point system. Points are awarded to each contestant based on each player’s results in the individual event.

The points allocated go in a reversed order (kind of like Golf, and other sports determine rankings this way as well) where in an individual event a player gets points corresponding directly to their placement. For example, the player coming first in an event would gain one point, second would gain two, etcetera .

The over all order of player’s placement in the tournament is determined by an ordered list of lowest to highest points.

E.g.
High Tier
1 Mew2King (Metaknight)
2 Ken (Marth)
3 Vyse (Marth)
4 Shaya (Marth)
5 Aarosmashguy (Totally Marth)
6 Emblem Lord (Marth)
7 Kizzu (Marth)
8 RandomKidKnownAsMetaKnightLover (Metaknight)

Mid Tier
1. Mew2King (Not MK)
2. Aarosmashguy (Who cares)
3. MetaKnightLoverNowLovesOlimar
4. RandomKid1
5. Shaya
6. Steel2nd
7. Vyse
8. Kizzu

Low Tier
1. Aarosmashguy
2. Magikarp
3. Ganon4toptierLover
4. RandomKid1
5. Kizzu
6. Shaya
7. Ken
8. Mew2King

To determine the over all winner for the day, points would be to given to each player relating to the ranking, so Mew2King would be given 10 points (1st, 1st, 8th). While on the other hand Aarosmashguy, our saviour won the tournament with 8 points (5th, 2nd, 1st). Of course many of the other contestants did well too, but I can’t be bothered to count them. I think that Shaya guy probably came 3rd, maybe. If only you had practiced up a low tier character M2K!

2.5 Example of Use​

The inaugural use of The Tier Tournament system was used at a Sydney tournament in Australia on the 19th of October of 2008. At this time it was using an old definition of High, Middle and Low.

High was played as a Double Elimination Event (12 chars)
Unique: Meta Knight, Snake, Pit, G&W, Kirby, Marth, Olimar, Wolf, R.O.B., Sonic, Fox, Lucario

Middle was played as a Single Elimination Event (14 chars)
Unique: Wario, Zelda, Falco, Peach, Ike, King Dedede, Pikachu, Ness, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, Link, Captain Falcon, Toon Link

Low was played as a Single Elimination event coinciding at the same time as Middle (12 chars)
Unique: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Diddy, Yoshi, Sheik, Ganondorf, Samus, ZSS, Pkmn Trainer, Jigglypuff, Lucas.

Within ‘Low’ Lucas and Diddy dominated the top 8 (With Lucas winning) and myself as Sheik coming second.
Middle again had Lucas win (the same winner as low) with a large array of characters; including Diddy, Wario, DK, Tink and myself as Falco only obtaining fifth. No other ‘low’ chars besides Lucas placed.
High, which allowed usages of all characters had “Middle” characters DK and Toon Link place, whilst the rest were ‘high’.

The over all winner of the day was the Lucas user (who won both low and middle) and came second in High. Whilst myself who placed 5th in High, 5th in Middle and 2nd in Low came third for the entire day - showing my consistency outdid the non-consistent.

As middle and low were single elimination, they were seeded using previous tournament results as a basis.

3.0 Comments/Notes

3.1 Advantages​

There is no longer a reliance on Metaknight, in other words, there is no need to ban a character that isn’t directly required to win the tournament. If Metaknight’s dominance grows so large that he reaches 60% of dominance, than this ‘system’ would allow middle to be the ‘metaknightless’ scene many hoped for.

It promotes the use of underused characters to definitely allow the opportunity for an individual characters metagame to grow.

The fluidity of using a dynamic list (refer 2.2) allows/encompasses such changes in the ‘metagame’. Some may argue that Olimar being Mid would mean there is no counter to Olimar available and he would always win; if this were the case he would hence be able to transcend into High. In other words, if one singular character dominates a tier, then they would theoretically be moved to the tier above them in due course. Or the other, perhaps more favourable result is of course another character being used to counter Olimar within the that was previously unexpected.

3.2 Disadvantages​

The lack or ‘need’ for matchups between the current highs and lows. While yes it would be possible for there to be no improvement metagame wise against Ganon and MK, if a player is so good with such a character they can choose to use him in high or middle as well. There is higher chance of someone eventually wanting to try out Ganon against MK through his use in low and doing well and gaining confidence then what it is now - a presumed 80:20 or worse (ish) match up where you would only be insane to counter pick such a character in a competitive tournament.

Time is of course the biggest issue. To run all three in double elimination is in theory going to take three times longer than a normal tournament. That is of course at minimum efficiency; at ‘maximum’ efficiency it is practical for the running of three double elimination to be only two times the length (due to less use of TVs for tournament matches as the day develops). Also while having all three as single elimination is essentially similar time to just one double elim, the general ‘hatred’ of single elimination within the community is always apparent. That’s why I suggest seeding, or pools.

Irregular ‘tier list’? This point would apply more to my region more than likely to an American region. Most American tournaments have payouts, for people to win they will use the best characters they have available to them. So if somehow Metaknight drops down to middle, it shouldn’t take long for him to be back up to high, no? If an overpowered character is within a ‘tier’ he should be moving himself into a higher one, through natural progression.

3.3 Why?​

So… Why do we need this system? Need is definitely not the right word. It’s usefulness for the current brawl competitive scene however is easy to see.

Many people argue, and I mostly agree - that brawl is a lot less technical than melee. Brawl is so much more about the character abilities than anything else, as it would seem. Hearing it in the “Show me your news” pod cast about MK, discussing all the ‘ideas’ about the counter pick theory, etc. it seems a lot of people realise this; hence another reason why MK is so ‘bad’ - he has no counters.

This system not only doesn’t require everyone to ‘disease themselves’ by picking up Metaknight; it also allows for a competitive environment for so many other characters. It alleviates any reason to ban him, it promotes use of other characters metagames, and the competitive scene revolves around the best player more than the best character.

Why should you as a tournament organiser pick up this system?
I believe this system makes the competitive nature for brawl as a whole more enjoyable to all participants. It may cause stir in your scene as ‘holy moly’ different people start doing better, different people start to ‘rise‘ to fame, everything (well at least 2/3rds of it) is practically going to make the game completely ‘fresh‘ to many people, fresh = people happy. Any tournament organiser who wants ANY HELP what so ever for making a ‘rank list’ for their region or how, or anything like that I am happy to oblige. I constructed a ‘timing’ list of how long tournaments running would take using this system, comparing to a normal double elimination ‘day’. If people are interested in the details I’ll post them.

Why should you as a player want this system?
You get the option to play your favourite characters, ones that you’ve always been too scared to use competitively. You get to play matchups you would have never done before. You get to see tournament winners who use more than just Meta Knight, Snake or D3. You are a freer player who now has opportunity to develop the metagames of other characters. And it will make brawl live a lot longer than its currently set to due to the wider array of possibilities.

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Amazing Ampharos said:

That stage list is pretty silly. Do you really think that Flat Zone 2 is worse than the Temple? Summit's hazard is pretty non-threatening if you don't suck on the stage; the real big problem with Summit is that you can run a loop around the center which makes some matchups (like Fox v Bowser) 100% unwinnable. Flat Zone 2's hazards are mostly manageable too; I played on the stage a lot before I had to conclude that it was way more fair than most people gave it credit for but it had to be banned anyway because a camping Snake is at a really absurd advantage there. Big Blue isn't really that bad at all; the only reason I can see to ban it is because the stage is generally obnoxious, not that it's particularly unfair. On the other hand, you allow stages like New Pork City and the Temple which make the fastest character in whichever section that only playable choice, and then there are the super abuseable stages like Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2, and just so you know you can run forever on 75m and Hanenbow if you're smart about it.

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Metà said:

No one that's any good (or has any common sense) would travel or pay money to play in a tournament with this ruleset. I'm not even going to get started on why it's so bad.....

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Skyflyer said:

No. Just ****ing no. This is a scrub's dream list. Learn to fight without the stage helping you all the time.

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Skyflyer said:

Do you realize one up smash on rumble falls can lead to a 0 death because of the spike? The last time I checked anyone can be up smashed. You must be very stupid.

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The_Bear735 said:

I lol'd, the list is so fake.

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CaliburChamp said:

pathetic excuse and your stupid.


Your a moron, thats not true.

It's not fake, it real. This isn't a joke thread. This smash community is pathetically moronic, unlike the melee days. Stupid little kids like Skyflyer come up with the stupidest excuses. THIS DISCUSSION WILL CONTINUE!

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CaliburChamp said:

The New List:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Bridge of Eldin
Hanenbow
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Hyrule Temple
New Pork City
75m

Banned stages:

Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

The New Rules:
The reason why there aren't any starter stages is because some characters do very well on starter stages which gave them the advantage in the beginning stages of brawl's meta game because a starter stage always had to be picked at least once in a set. All stages are treated as counter stages giving more strategic elements to the game, preventing ledge camping for stages with no way to edgehog (Ex: Mute City), preventing projectile camping (Ex: Rumble Falls), helping characters with bad recoveries (Ex: Pirate Ship), preventing chaingrabs.(Ex: Hanenbow) and so on, for whatever tactic is a strong element in your opponents character and/or playstyle you can limit it or stop it completely from happening.

Players Stage Choice:
This new format of rules can be called "The Counter Factor Ruleset." The players have a choice to play the old fashioned way of rock, paper, scissors, and whoever wins picks their first stage they want to play on, or the players can both agree on a stage. However, the player who loses at rock, paper, scissors gets to ban a stage from use. Player 1 won at Rock/paper/scissors, player 2 bans a stage from use. If player 2 banned the stage that player 1 wanted to play on, P1 has to choose his second choice for a stage. They play that stage.
If P1 wins, P2 picks next stage WITHOUT a ban, so P2 can pick any stage he wants, thats not banned. If P2 wins the first round, P1 gets to pick a stage, the loser always gets to pick the stage he wants EXCEPT for round 3. Stage bans are used for the first round picks and the final round picks, if it goes to round 3. Here is a good example of the rules.

Rules:
1. No one particular stage can be used twice in a set.

2. Your first round ban stage remains banned throughout the whole entire set. (Ex: Battlefield.)

3. When you lose, you get to ban a second stage from the set, which elminates 2 of your opponents best stages. (Ex: Battlefield and now Lylat Cruise)

4. Your opponent selects his third choice of a stage for the final round of round 3. Making it more fair since you eliminated his 2 best stages and he can't choose the stages he has already played you on, limiting his options even more, making it more fair game.


Why is this Necessary?:
It adds more strategic elements to the game, and forces players to adapt. Also, the stages that were banned before were good counter stages against the top tier characters, giving other characters a chance who don't have a good recovery or whatsoever. Starter stages were used once in every set or even more, making certain characters perform better than other characters who do not do so well on starter stages, thus giving them the advantage.
The difference is, let each player play on the stage they want according to the Counter Factor ruleset. With this ruleset added to brawl, you can really step up your game by making smart stage decisions preventing so called cheap tactics. This is merely embracing the diversity of the stages in brawl to help improve the strategic elements of brawl.

The Banned Stages:
These stages are banned because of a huge luck factor, or easy accidental suicides that can drastically change the tide of battle, or one hit stage assisted KO's which merits a ban.

Attention tournament hosts:
I ask for tournament hosts to please try out the Counter Factor ruleset and you'll see a positive change in the meta game for brawl or just try it out at least and see how you and all the local smashers like it. Give it some time and you'll see the benefits from these new rules. I can see why people are being negative about this, because they are not used to this, but that's like anything in life that is new, you have to test it out and work with it, then you will see the advantages and start to adapt with the new situation improving your mind because now you learned how to adapt to something new, thus making you a better player at this game and thus improving the players skills in your local smash community and the metagame.

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Skyflyer said:

Lol, how old are you?

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shaSLAM said:

I think, this stage list provides a way for you to get knocked the **** out by a **** mario kart in mario circuit, or get DDD chaingrabed into oblivion in bridge of eldin. plus much...much more. enough said.

EDIT- Oh and... if i ever had to play at pokemon stadium 2 i would forfeit. and then go kill myself.

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CaliburChamp said:

I'm 24.



Wow... learn to read and understand things. If you don't want your opponent to choose pokemon stadium 2, you can stage strike it, if he chooses mario circuit you can stage strike that... you have two available stage strikes whenever your opponent chooses stages and you can't choose the same stage twice. But your opponent's gets to use his third choice for a stage, and you have to accept the third choice.
Also learn how to counter stage somebody, you sound like a person who chooses starter stages all the time, which is actually hurting you rather than helping you.

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1 w1nged @ngel said:

This ruleset is ********. And that's a nice way of putting it.
Incredibly flawed logic, especially the MK stuff. MK ***** on ALL stages. Why do you have temple legal?
You have it so luck decides who gets to choose the first stage, therefore, it is uncompetitive. It doesn't make the game more competitive.

There are REASONS that we ban stages such as rumble falls and temple. Such as stalling and turning it from a fighting game to a running away game.

This would not make characters balanced. Especially since a max of 1 stages can be banned. It would just be D3 only, choosing whatever stages have walls or walk offs. Lets take the three best:
Mario Circut
Bridge of elden
Shadow Moses.
Non dedede can choose to ban only one of these stages. Therefore, at some point, Dedede would get outo win from one of these stages (there are more than three good ones, BTW).

We chose those starter stages because they are the MOST fair. No fighting game is balanced, especially a scrub game like brawl, where Sakurai **** on the competitive players. Having no starting stages means by luck, one person is going to get a huge advantage over the other player, basically an auto win.

Basically, to sum it all up, you are a scrub. A horribly pathetic scrub who can't handle authority and wants to lash out at the SBR, probably because of a psychological problem you developed as a child. You are acting like a child.

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petrie911 said:

OK, so our Dedede player picks Mario Circuit, I strike it, then he picks Bridge of Eldin. I can't do anything about it, and now I'm wholly screwed. There are limits to which stages should be used in the first match.

Oh, and I like how you have Spear Pillar banned despite it being a far better stage than 75m, Temple, New Pork City, etc. If it weren't for the loop, you could make a pretty good case for it being CP.

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Rules:
1. No one particular stage can be used twice in a set.

2. Your first round ban stage remains banned throughout the whole entire set. (Ex: Battlefield.)

3. When you lose, you get to ban a second stage from the set, which elminates 2 of your opponents best stages. (Ex: Battlefield and now Lylat Cruise)

4. Your opponent selects his third choice of a stage for the final round of round 3. Making it more fair since you eliminated his 2 best stages and he can't choose the stages he has already played you on, limiting his options even more, making it more fair game.

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1 w1nged @ngel said:

I love how you're calling us ******** and you had to make up new rules to address my points.

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