~Lucario Matchup Chart/Discussion: Rotation Twenty-Four: Meta Knight~

FzeroX · Dec 4, 2008

I will agree on 50:50.

Also to note: lucario and Pit are some of the few characters that have at least 2 radically different playstyles, so mastering more than one will help in this match-up for both parties, seeing as switching between 2 or more will keep the opponent guessing as well as being able to adjust the match-up's favor to one side or the other.

Kyuubi9t · Dec 4, 2008

i still say 55:45 Pit because i firmly believe that Pit has the advantage when Lucario is at a low percent.

Granted, a good lucario can rack damage just as quickly as pit using his ridiculous combos (SHFair->Dair, Forward-B chain, Jab->ForwardB, Fair->nair, last part of dash attack->utilt spam, Uair juggle, the list goes on), however Pit can rack damage and could possibly chain his combos into a KO before Lucario takes advantage of his High% strength (lucario isnt particularly heavy). On the other hand, if Lucario were to combo Pit straight up to a % he can be killed at, the kill wont happen unless Lucario is significantly damaged.

I wont talk about lucario's recovery, you guys seem pretty sensitive about it. And for the record, i like lucario's recovery and it is one of the sole reasons i 2nd him.

The match turns into Lucario's favor when he is at high% (mostly because of increased priority with disjointed hitboxes, and dont forget the F-throw gets stronger too), however at this point Pit can become more campy and evasive, somehow keeping the match-up almost even at this point.

Therefore, since pit has a slight advantage when lucario is at low% IMO, and can become evasive and campy to even the playing ground when the tides turn, i want to call this 55-45 Pit's favor

edit: but i could certainly live with 50-50 if thats the general consensus, this match is pretty even.

phi1ny3 · Dec 4, 2008

I'm gonna say 50:50, because they have plenty of strengths, I'd actually say its safe to say that what pit has over lucario (and vice versa) practically get traded in the air, as Pit's aerial game imo, is not as good as lucarios overall (still stellar, tho). Ground game has pit's calling card overall, Lucario's tilts can still be hurtful to a pit. I might say that it's a little in Lucario's favor (only by air), but Pit's stuff is enough to make it insignificant.

Fizzle · Dec 4, 2008

+1 vote for 50/50.

tedward2000 · Dec 4, 2008

I love it how, we're taking votes on a Match up #/#.

Think about it, votes.

Anywho, I'll have that review for ya kita shortly, proly sometime this weekend.
-t2

Omniomega · Dec 4, 2008

I vote 50:50

Coffee™ · Dec 4, 2008

Ok lol, I think people get the idea that the matchup is 50/50. Why don't you guys actually discuss what you should be doing in the matchup instead of numbers lol.

Admiral Pit · Dec 4, 2008

Gonna say 50-50, Lucario is simply quite good at close combat, and has great aerials, and some strong moves.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Dec 4, 2008

What stages are good for either party is a start.

Lucario loves Luigi's Mansion.

Other than that I can't think of any stages that would be good for either party.

Samuelson · Dec 4, 2008

I agree

We should be discussing things like....

Does Pit's Dair beat our Uair?

Whats the best way to SDI out of Nair and Uair?

What are the best kill moves to use vs Pit?

What moves besides Fsmash and Bair should we look out for when we are at killing percent?

Does FPCG even work vs Pit.

Does our Fair beat Pit's main approaching moves? Do you guys even know what Pit's main approaching moves are?

I did some testing and i found that Pit can kill us with Fsmash from the center of FD at 141% with good DI. When Lucario is at 141% he can kill Pit with Fsmash at about 95% and he can kill with FCAS at about 105%.

Pit kills earlier with Bair then Usmash however.

Get some good info guys! Go Go Go! (counter strike ftw)

Red Ryu said:
What stages are good for either party is a start.

Lucario loves Luigi's Mansion.

Other than that I can't think of any stages that would be good for either party.

I don't like Luigi's Mansion at all for Lucario. Most Lucario's that go here just think that this stage is an auto win button which is not true and just stupid. I think that FD is a good stage for Pit since he can ledge camp under that lip. He can also effectively ledge camp us/plank us on that stage. I think it's pretty much known that you should always ban Norfair vs Pit for obvious reasons. I'm not entirely sure what stage i would take Pit to but I'm thinking Jungle Japes. It's even harder for Pit to kill on that stage plus he can't really ledge camp unless he wants to risk getting klaptrapped. Pit doesn't have that hard of a time killing lucario on Luigi's compared to other stages because his main kill moves kill horizontally not vertically.

Omniomega · Dec 4, 2008

Umm I think another one of Pit's more reliable finishers is his Dsmash. So I suppose a Lucario should watch out for that.

I think the FPCG only works for about 2-3 grabs at a low percentage.

tedward2000 · Dec 4, 2008

Samuelson said:
I agree

We should be discussing things like....

Does Pit's Dair beat our Uair?

Whats the best way to SDI out of Nair and Uair?

What are the best kill moves to use vs Pit?

What moves besides Fsmash and Bair should we look out for when we are at killing percent?

Does FPCG even work vs Pit.

Does our Fair beat Pit's main approaching moves? Do you guys even know what Pit's main approaching moves are?

I did some testing and i found that Pit can kill us with Fsmash from the center of FD at 141% with good DI. When Lucario is at 141% he can kill Pit with Fsmash at about 95% and he can kill with FCAS at about 105%.

Pit kills earlier with Bair then Usmash however.

Get some good info guys! Go Go Go! (counter strike ftw)

AKA

Less Match up ratio, more actual USEABLE match-up stuff.

Knowing pit is 50/50 wont help you any, compared to knowing wither or not Dair cancels our up-smash or what not.

Moves, not match-up.
/isdone
-t2

manhunter098 · Dec 4, 2008

Samuelson said:
I don't like Luigi's Mansion at all for Lucario. Most Lucario's that go here just think that this stage is an auto win button which is not true and just stupid. I think that FD is a good stage for Pit since he can ledge camp under that lip. He can also effectively ledge camp us/plank us on that stage. I think it's pretty much known that you should always ban Norfair vs Pit for obvious reasons. I'm not entirely sure what stage i would take Pit to but I'm thinking Jungle Japes. It's even harder for Pit to kill on that stage plus he can't really ledge camp unless he wants to risk getting klaptrapped. Pit doesn't have that hard of a time killing lucario on Luigi's compared to other stages because his main kill moves kill horizontally not vertically.

Well I would think Luigi's Mansion would have some benefits for Lucario, it shuts down Pits ability to ledge camp as well because of the pillars and it also limits his projectile more in general (and more-so than our own IMO), which he does rely on quite a bit. And of course being able to live longer than than most stages with teching does make Lucario and his Aura multiplier much more fearsome. I would agree with Japes as a good counterpick too, since it also does effectively stop Pit from ledge camping.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Dec 4, 2008

Samuelson said:
I don't like Luigi's Mansion at all for Lucario. Most Lucario's that go here just think that this stage is an auto win button which is not true and just stupid. I think that FD is a good stage for Pit since he can ledge camp under that lip. He can also effectively ledge camp us/plank us on that stage. I think it's pretty much known that you should always ban Norfair vs Pit for obvious reasons. I'm not entirely sure what stage i would take Pit to but I'm thinking Jungle Japes. It's even harder for Pit to kill on that stage plus he can't really ledge camp unless he wants to risk getting klaptrapped. Pit doesn't have that hard of a time killing lucario on Luigi's compared to other stages because his main kill moves kill horizontally not vertically.

I never said it was an auto win, I'm saying it's probably better for Lucario than Pit.

Jungle Japes sounds like a good idea.

manhunter098 said:
Well I would think Luigi's Mansion would have some benefits for Lucario, it shuts down Pits ability to ledge camp as well because of the pillars and it also limits his projectile more in general (and more-so than our own IMO), which he does rely on quite a bit. And of course being able to live longer than than most stages with teching does make Lucario and his Aura multiplier much more fearsome. I would agree with Japes as a good counterpick too, since it also does effectively stop Pit from ledge camping.

I'm fully agreeing with this.

Admiral Pit · Dec 4, 2008

Pit hates the mansion but he's good at Norfair for stalling and attackin from under the bridges. His ledgecamp game increases here.

Kyuubi9t · Dec 5, 2008

yes Admiral Pit, we love norfair, but i doubt it would help against lucario, he can use the ledges just as well as we can, and has an arguably better Uair to spam there as well. he doesnt particularly need large flat surfaces to be a lethal threat, thats why we save this counterpick for folks like DDD. I could see Lucario's Fairs and Uairs owning on Norfair.

I feel that i would rather fight Lucario in a level like castle siege. The first portion of the level may even be in lucario's favor, since he could readily grip to the castle walls for recovery. In the second portion, some skilled mind games could result in a nice KO from the sides, and this portion also encourages air combat with platforms where pit can use wing refresh as he pleases.

In the third portion well what can i say, pit should ledgecamp, spam arrows, then fly to the other side and try it again

edit: oh i almost forgot i am supposed to by helping the lucario guys figure out pit, well i would suggest Battlefield maybe? Oh and definately Pokemon Stadium 1... im writing a huge term paper right now but i will continue to add more as i have time

Admiral Pit · Dec 5, 2008

I hate Castle siege anyways. It wont do my any good. And im still sayin 50-50 even for matchup so every1 can be happy.

FzeroX · Dec 5, 2008

I always enjoy when ppl want to CP mansion against me, Pit has some amazing tech chase frame traps on mansion. Also saying it limits pits camp game is absolutely ******** because it just reenforces it more. Hell I camp ROBs on that stage all the time, and mansion does little to stop their camping. Once pit has the percent advantage he can basically win the game. you have two main approach options on mansion, come from the bottom, or come from the top. when coming from the bottom pit can use his ftilt and dtilt to keep you at bay as well as just sit on the ledge anyways. from the top pit can just jump up and go and uair through the platform with no fear of punishment.

he can also camp the inside of the stage, but not as well as lucairo.

iRJi · Dec 5, 2008

Matchup is in lucario's favor. Not giving a number but everyone else can decide.

Pit is a campy fcker. We all know this. the pits players know this. Even the children who aren't born know this. He will camp you, but the camping isn't that much of an issue. Pits attacks are close/semi mid range from up close, and also have a little bit of start up time. You have more range in close range combat then he does overall. AS camping isn't really going to work all that much because he has 2 reflectors -_-. Perfect shielding is your best friend for this match up, the arrows aren't scary so just PS through them and approach. Pit does have multible jumps but do not fear to CHASE HIM OFF MAP -_-. His jumps and limited so you can hit him enough to where he is forced to use his Up-B, if you hit him out of his up-B then hes gone for good (Unless he wing refreshes) but even then its a slim chance he will come back.

Edit: Sorry for vanishing for so long. Been doing School work for a while, but i am back =D

Samuelson · Dec 5, 2008

I believe that Lucario's Fair goes through arrows also. So you don't have to PS, i guess you can constantly SHFair to approach or something. I have not had the chance to test this out against a real opponent though. :/

MysticKenji · Dec 5, 2008

Lucario's fair clanks with arrows.

Coffee™ · Dec 5, 2008

The problem with that is that Pit can just hold the arrow and wait until your Fair ends. Pit can also shoot arrows faster than you Lucario can Fair for what its worth.

iRJi · Dec 5, 2008

Which is why i suggested PSing them. And since Most of pits attacks are multi- hit boxes they can be DIed out of. The match isn't all that hard if you play it calm and space him. His Fair is slow despite the fact it hits hard. His f-smash doesn't have that much range and the 2nd part of his f-smash can be DIed out of if you DI up and away (lol). Just harass him when you get close, pit won't be able to do much.

Edit: Still, just because a lot of this stuff can happen, on the short time I have i wish i can go into detail on how pit can harass lucario back ( and its pretty bad how he can) so I will save that convo for another time. Match up is about 55:45. can be pushed to 60:40 in lucario's favor.

tedward2000 · Dec 5, 2008

iRJi said:
Which is why i suggested PSing them. And since Most of pits attacks are multi- hit boxes they can be DIed out of. The match isn't all that hard if you play it calm and space him. His Fair is slow despite the fact it hits hard. His f-smash doesn't have that much range and the 2nd part of his f-smash can be DIed out of if you DI up and away (lol). Just harrass him when you get close, pit won't be able to do much.

My question is though, how are you going to space him?

If his arrows cover most of the stage, then the little air space they dont, your going to have to be in pits face.

And Pit should never have to come to you. They just do the little edge hog, jump shoot thing. your going to have to come to them.

Personally I like jumping over the arrows, or be classy and duck.
Cause everybody likes a ninja.
-t2

iRJi · Dec 5, 2008

PSing (Still) your best friend. The arrows aren't hard to stop if you just relax and press the shield button lol. off map though ya... that is one of the things i didn't want to get into. He can set up so much gimps its like a MK Prodigy in the making. The match up is really on the fact that lucario's move are faster and have slight more range then pits. On the map lucario actually dominates pit. This is the one match up where playing aggressive is loads of fun, and pit is too slow to do anything =D

Edit: When you PS, Walk up to him also -_-. Don't just stand there lol.

tedward2000 · Dec 5, 2008

iRJi said:
Edit: When you PS, Walk up to him also -_-. Don't just stand there lol.

And if you do just stand there, taunt then duck. Classy points +5.
-t2

iRJi · Dec 5, 2008

Lawl =D. But seriously though, the match up is on lucario's favor.

CaliburChamp · Dec 6, 2008

I'd call it an even match up.

Coffee™ · Dec 6, 2008

iRJi said:
PSing (Still) your best friend. The arrows aren't hard to stop if you just relax and press the shield button lol. off map though ya... that is one of the things i didn't want to get into. He can set up so much gimps its like a MK Prodigy in the making. The match up is really on the fact that lucario's move are faster and have slight more range then pits. On the map lucario actually dominates pit. This is the one match up where playing aggressive is loads of fun, and pit is too slow to do anything =D

Edit: When you PS, Walk up to him also -_-. Don't just stand there lol.

I honestly think you are simply theorizing this match up and haven't played a good Pit nor know much about Pit in general aside from the general misconceptions that most people seem to have about him.

If PSing projectiles were as simple as you make it sound then I could understand but it is not. People say PSing all of Pit's arrows are pretty easy but is not. It is just about the fastest moving projectile and easily the most manipulative and using them is not only about damaging an opponent but also forcing opponents into a more favourable positions for follow ups.

Also Pit's moves are generally faster than Lucario's moves -_-

iRJi · Dec 6, 2008

Lol? O.k. Would it help if I posted a vid? I have a few from me playing Pit in tournament and in friendlies against my crew members. Ill get one up asap. =], maybe then you wouldn't just say that I'm all theory xD.

Works on both sides, I been getting PMs for me to post videos since I'm one of the few Lucario mains in jersey =[
that and people wanna see how I play =D

DuskMarthWater · Dec 6, 2008

Just thought I'd let you know Kita, that every time you click on the Olimar link...it sends you to some random website about HTTP.com. I didn't even know that such a place existed! I think the link is incorrect or something. Anyways, on with the Pit discussion!

tedward2000 · Dec 6, 2008

And if you click on the IC link, it just takes you to the main page....

Why don't you do what Jeepy did, and where the Pit Picture is now show all the collected info, review and picture of IC.
You dont need to post a Pit pic, until we move on to the next rotation, and have all the collected info of pit, review, and pic below where the IC final stuff was.
Just like what Jeepy did.

Cause with the current method, none of the info is shone and collected. So all of our work is just forgotten.
-t2

phi1ny3 · Dec 6, 2008

Maniaclyrasist said:
I honestly think you are simply theorizing this match up and haven't played a good Pit nor know much about Pit in general aside from the general misconceptions that most people seem to have about him.

If PSing projectiles were as simple as you make it sound then I could understand but it is not. People say PSing all of Pit's arrows are pretty easy but is not. It is just about the fastest moving projectile and easily the most manipulative and using them is not only about damaging an opponent but also forcing opponents into a more favourable positions for follow ups.

Also Pit's moves are generally faster than Lucario's moves -_-

It isn't too hard, actually. Besides, if you SHAD/ jump a bit, it will get a bit tricky to make an arrow land. RDT, while extremely situational, can be used from a far range to close distance on a mid or large stage, but only one, because he can wait the arrow and then ur screwed. Like I said though, PS is actually pretty good for just about every projectile, but it's certainly not the only way.

LA180 · Dec 7, 2008

I never really had trouble with Lucario before. When I use other characters, Lucario can be a big problem. With Pit, Lucario is fighting a losing battle. I mainly focus on dodging and counterattacks mixed in with a few throws (mostly down-throws). I dodge really well in mid-air so thats not a problem and I always use Angel Ring when the A-Spheres come out to kill. The ONLY problem I have with him is that acursed Double Team counter.

I use D-Smash alot and I have been trying to test out if that can 'counter' Lucario's counter(yes I am a mad man...).

Col. Stauffenberg · Dec 7, 2008

If double team is your biggest problem, you're not playing good Lucarios lol.

LA180 · Dec 7, 2008

Col. Stauffenberg said:
If double team is your biggest problem, you're not playing good Lucarios lol.

Maybe. The only time that its actually a problem is in sudden deaths, which apparently Lucario has (and always will have)a big advantage over me. Other than that, there is nothing to it.

Well, are you playing good Pits???????

tedward2000 · Dec 7, 2008

-Friendly reminder-

At least a few people in here have played good pits, or good lucario's.
Lets not play the have-you-played-a-good-(insert Character here)-game.

Simon says- Move on.
-t2

LA180 · Dec 7, 2008

tedward2000 said:
-Friendly reminder-

At least a few people in here have played good pits, or good lucario's.
Lets not play the have-you-played-a-good-(insert Character here)-game.

Simon says- Move on.
-t2

lol ok. Sorry bout that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that it all depends on who the PLAYER is, not the character. Some people just have different stratigies on how to use their character againest certain people in certain situations (espeacially stages and self-destructs). But don't get me wrong, Lucario was my main before I switched to Pit, so I can kinda see both sides of the argument here. If nobody can agree on something, well, you can always get their freind code and settle it the old fashoin way.

Col. Stauffenberg · Dec 7, 2008

LA180 said:
Maybe. The only time that its actually a problem is in sudden deaths, which apparently Lucario has (and always will have)a big advantage over me. Other than that, there is nothing to it.

Sudden death?

We're talking about playing an actual match here.

LA180 said:
Well, are you playing good Pits???????

I've played a grand total of one tournament set against a Pit player. And also wifi against F0x, but that was a while ago... and it was wifi.

That would be why I haven't made any actual assertions about the matchup and am only correcting things that are outright wrong.

LA180 said:
lol ok. Sorry bout that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that it all depends on who the PLAYER is, not the character. Some people just have different stratigies on how to use their character againest certain people in certain situations (espeacially stages and self-destructs). But don't get me wrong, Lucario was my main before I switched to Pit, so I can kinda see both sides of the argument here. If nobody can agree on something, well, you can always get their freind code and settle it the old fashoin way.

This isn't a PLAYER discussion. This is a CHARACTER discussion. If you have problems with Double Team, a move largely considered by Lucario players to be one of his worst, that's your problem as a player. I'm pretty sure no good Pit is going to have that much trouble with it.

LA180 · Dec 7, 2008

Feel free to correct me...my Wii, for some reason, stopped working 1 month ago while I was playing Brawl so their are some things I say that make absolutly no sense.

*sigh* I don't have trouble with it...I'm really good at Pit, at least understand that. (Despite that I don't have a Wii to prove it........) And I'm not bragging either. When I mean I never had trouble with him, I'm not saying Lucario never owned me before.

Problem(s)

1: spammers...

2: Like I said, I used to play Lucario. The problem is that the move is bad...

Now do you understand what I mean?????? T_T

~Lucario Matchup Chart/Discussion: Rotation Twenty-Four: Meta Knight~

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Not the Mama

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

I need it....

Smash Hero

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Master

I need it....

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Master

I need it....

Smash Champion

Dude.

Smash Champion

Not the Mama

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Champion

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

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