R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #2: Marth

Go!

I've played against pierce's Marth just last week, so here's just a few random stuff I picked up.

Don't spot dodge. Unless he's using shield breaker. You can see marth's arm pull back before he uses shield breaker. But if he's just throwing out fairs/tilts and you spot dodge you end up eating a dancing blade combo.

I've heard that if you SDI up and out you can get out of his dancing blade if he's doing the down variation, but I'm fairly certain you never want to DI towards marth during his forward b.

His up-b is a pretty awesome combo breaker, due to its invincibility frames in the beginning, if you can bait it you can get a free smash, but more often than not it's going to just screw up any rushdowns you try.

He's pretty easy to gimp, just learn to hug. I missed out on so many gimps due to my horrible hugging skills. Especially if they're planking with the fair -> upb on the ledge and you're feeling ballsy.

They love battlefield. Also love lylat. Both stages are roughly neutral for ROB. Make of that what you will.

They're nimble enough with enough aerial manueverability to avoid most of ROB's projectiles, doesn't mean you should stop spamming.

Ftilt (angled up) beats everything marth has on the ground but shield breaker. Everything. But Marth's game is all about spacing, and most marth mains are smart and can space extremely well. Not to mention if they block a ftilt/dsmash/dtilt they usually have enough time to dancing blade you.

ROB's fair can beat Math's fair, but I don't know exactly what needs to happen for that to happen.

Watch for their ledge hopped dair spikes, it's rather humiliating. Watch out when they're hanging on the ledge in general.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181823 is the old matchup thread by the Marth boards from September-sh, just reread it now, not sure if anyone feels different since then, but the matchup was 50:50 when player skils were similar in greatness, in ROB's favor when it wasn't two 1337 players.

I don't know a lot about Marth. All I know is if they're walking away they're spacing for Fsmash. Do not fall for the delicious cake.

I'll just say what I've been saying about Marth for a long time.

Low-level play, R.O.B. will mess up Marth something fierce. High-level play, R.O.B. and Marth go even unless it is a platform-heavy level like BF or Lylat. Then R.O.B. is basically ****ed in the ***.

I like Rainbow Cruise for this. My favorite neutral is FD or Smashville (in Smashville, it's too easy to shield an incoming Marth as you sit on the platform at one end of the field and just b-throw him to death)

EDIT: I meant FD, not BF. Lol, BF.

Nintendevil said:

I don't know a lot about Marth. All I know is if they're walking away they're spacing for Fsmash. Do not fall for the delicious cake.

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We will be spacing at around fsmash range. But we will likely be spamming some nairs and baiting your dsmash to catch you with a up b oos. Good Marths wont rely on the fsmash. I still feel the matchup is 50:50 and if theres any questions, ask away.

ROB wins by weight and can damage Marth from a distance.

Marth has better spacing tools and can keep ROB juggled to continue damaging him.

Marth zones better up close, because he's disjointed, but ROB controls more total space via his projectiles. ROB even manages to outrange him on the ground... I think it's a tougher match for Marth than people want to let on. But the ability to beat ROB in the air and juggle him like a ragdoll gives him a solid advantage in racking up damage... which ROB responds to with more weight, free projectile damage and stronger edgeguarding. I'm fine with general consensus. *shrug* We should discuss a matchup we haven't already beaten to death. :/

I don't think Lylat is all that bad, BF is the real culprit because the platforms completely obscure the ground. ROB uses platforms against Marth just fine, so there's nothing wrong with Lylat. The problem with BF is the platforms are bigger... which doesn't help ROB any more than Lylat's little platforms but make Marth stronger because his dumb UTilt and FSmash still cover the whole thing anyway.

Wolydarg said:

I've heard that if you SDI up and out you can get out of his dancing blade if he's doing the down variation, but I'm fairly certain you never want to DI towards marth during his forward b.

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Since Marth continues to take steps forward during his Dancing Blade combos, DI-ing [up and] toward him is actually the most likely way to set yourself up for a free FSmash to the back of his head. He takes such a massive step forward (not to mention it's multihit) you can pretty much always punish the final "down" hit with good DI. It's much tougher if he ends with the "up" or "side" hit but you'll still want to DI toward him anyway, as you'll still get behind him if the startup was not spaced well.

R.O.B. is also disjointed up close (I mean, I think basically all of his attacks are disjointed...) and his f-tilt outspaces everything Marth has on the ground (aside from shield breaker I think), but Marth's spaced attacks are way more punishing than R.O.B.'s, i.e. it's way less risk/profit for Marth up close than it is for R.O.B.

Nintendevil said:

http://gamebattles.com/wii/smash-bros/team/sf93/

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I don't understand.

DRaGZ said:

I don't understand.

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I dont either....sigh lol.

It's probably 45:55 ROB if you account for mental focus required. ROB's spam game is easier to execute than perfect spacing.

Kinda like Meta's true advantage over most chars is higher than the actual percentage indicated because Meta has a much larger room for error, which actually takes effect over a long day at a tourney/pressure of finals/other johns.

But I've never really liked percentages so I'm not sure why I gave one ><

Marth is a very difficult matchup to get straight because every Marth player uses a different play style during a match.

R.O.B.s advantages: Projectiles, LOOOONG Range, Disjointed hitbox on Nair, Bair, and Dair, Heavy.
R.O.B.s disadvantages: Floaty, Outranged in the air, can have issues returning to stage when the marth is agressive.

Okay. One of the first things you will notice in this matchup is that Marth outranges ROB in the air. Tipper Fair is JUST outside the range of ROB's Fair. However, air dodging can usually get you out of Fair combos. On the ground though, the story is completely different. ROB's projectile game can force Marth to approach. In this case, you can just poke Marth with ftilt to your hearts content.

What you really need to worry about is side B. You are bulky, floaty, and have a small shield. Never hold your shield out against marth. You will get caught in side B, have your shield broken, or when you release you will be pushed back with Dolphin Slash (up B). If you must shield, make it a power shield and cause a dtilt trip to ftilt space.

In the air you DO have options. Bair is GREAT for spacing marth. It keeps him back if he's patient, and gives free damage and stress to those who are agressive. Use thist move. You should also laser marth off stage in hopes of eating his second jump or following him off to start a WoP with forward air. Just be careful about counter.

To kill marth, either poke to WoP gimp, or poke/projectile damage and then go for the kill with either Nair or Bair.

ROB/Marth Matchup
55/44 in ROB's favor

I don't play many marths but the few times I have, I've gotten a couple good kills by using bair directly in the trajectory of his up b. Pretty sure we both got hit both times I did it, but I was able to recover. Anyone else have any luck doing this, or were these just fluke hits?

It seems this would work well because dolphin slash covers such a small horizontal distance, while our bair has a massive horizontal hit box.

The amount of Marth players has gone down a lot. I haven't played a good Marth in a long time.

Rob may have more weight but any tippered attack can easily kill him if he's near the ledge. in the end i think it comes down to off stage control and who's better at edge guarding and gimping

ROB has better edgeguarding but Marth tends to rack up damage better and has superior kill moves in the event they fail to gimp each other.

Azuzu said:

I don't play many marths but the few times I have, I've gotten a couple good kills by using bair directly in the trajectory of his up b.

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It works pretty well if they go low to recover, since they've no choice but to Up-B once they're below the stage and run right into the BAir hitbox. You'll trade hits, he'll get stage spiked or die at an impossibly low angle to recover from, ROB will take his lumps and fly back. It becomes a problem against any Marth player who simply realizes he doesn't need to recover low against ROB. ;/ He can just bat ROB away if he comes anywhere near Marth.

That's when a fully charged Laser or Gyro comes in handy and then you get into a sort of RPS or mindgaming thing... At any rate, ROB edgeguards Marth better than the reverse. Both make it tough for the other to get back on-stage, but Marth just sorta racks up more damage and keeps ROB on the ledge while ROB garners outright kills if he plays his cards right.

Counter is a ****, too.

Nintendevil said:

http://gamebattles.com/wii/smash-bros/team/sf93/

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Maybe it has something to do with Marth's face on Snake's body...

Again?

This match has been analyzed over and over again. Nothing has changed since it was last discussed; you're just saying the same stuff but slapping a different ratio on it.

I really feel this is one of the most even match ups in the game.

Jamnt0ast said:

What you really need to worry about is side B. You are bulky, floaty, and have a small shield. Never hold your shield out against marth. You will get caught in side B, have your shield broken, or when you release you will be pushed back with Dolphin Slash (up B). If you must shield, make it a power shield and cause a dtilt trip to ftilt space.

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Aaaactually, you should shield. Shieldgrab. What you shouldn't do is side-dodge.

DRaGZ said:

Aaaactually, you should shield. Shieldgrab. What you shouldn't do is side-dodge.

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Why'd nobody think of that >.>

It's been beat to death, true. I think the frustration comes from peoples matches just getting closer and closer...sometimes Marths jump in levels and when one night you're not doing badly, the next you're getting wrecked and wondering why. Then it feels like so many of your options get limited by a good and smart Marth.

Small bit of important information. Marth can upB in between the two hits of the jab combo..............not cool.

Also, the Melee Reverse-upB hitbox doesn't seem present, but it is..it does not extend as far in front of Marth as it did in Melee [hardly at all, really] and it's practically BELOW Marth...not directly in front of him. So..................beware >_>

walking off stage with a nair works surprisingly well. More efficient and guaranteed than bair.

Don't rely on projectiles unless the Marth you play sucks.

zelda_master_timmy said:

I dont either....sigh lol.

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lol he's just a really good Marth main that knows how to sapce his **** f smashes.

Steel2nd said:

Again?

This match has been analyzed over and over again. Nothing has changed since it was last discussed; you're just saying the same stuff but slapping a different ratio on it.

I really feel this is one of the most even match ups in the game.

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This.

I was just catering to the ROB masses that requested it. :/

no you shouldn't stand in front of marth and shield. If he starts side b.... DI OUT/ run away AND PUNISH WITH PROJECTILESSSSS

A ROB straight up loses to a Marth with perfect spacing. This is 60-40. The higher to high levels of play you get, the better marth does. So unless you've played a Marth people actually know about, you don't know this matchup like you think

I play NEO regularly (ie, best Marth main in the world, no meatriding).

It's 50/50, trust me. Not that I beat him 50% of the time (or hardly at all for that matter), and yes, Marth can destroy ROB straight up face to face, but ROB has certain advantages too, like being hard to approach, winning on the ground, living forever with good DI, and gimping Marth like a fiend.

ROB isn't hard to approach if the Marth knows how to shield...really. Shield destroys the easy-to-see Gyros, and blocks the easy-to-see Lasers. And Ftilt outranges Marth on the ground, but I don't think it hits a Marth who goes for a SH-Fair. Even if it does, you'd fail against RoyR who loves his full hop double fairs

And really, gimping doesn't happen that much in ROB v. Marth. Any good Marth main knows how to not get gimped.

If you mix up your laser angles, gyro speeds and angles, and throw in well-spaced ftilts, yes, ROB is a ***** to approach. That is a cornerstone of ROB's game in most matchups, and Marth is no different (especially since he has no projectile or reflector and isn't particularly small or fast a la MK). ROB plays keep away very well.

I personally think Marth is one of the easier characters in the game to gimp. He doesn't have a whole lot of options when he's recovering. You can jump out with fairs and bairs and even gyros and mess him up pretty well. If he goes too low he's easily edgehogged, or you can throw out a bair to catch his up-B which trades hits and is an almost certain kill. Gimps do happen, even to good Marths.

Jamnt0ast said:

no you shouldn't stand in front of marth and shield. If he starts side b.... DI OUT/ run away AND PUNISH WITH PROJECTILESSSSS

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If you need to DI, you're already being hit. And running away does nothing to discourage from just doing it again later. Shieldgrab it a few times, **** with his mind, he won't do that **** again, trust me.

If you're shieldgrabbing it consistently, then they need to space better. Then you should pop them in the face with FTilt for their insolence. Clearly, the only recourse is for Marth to just spam FAir like a little ***** as he does in every other matchup.

If we follow JCz's suggestion, we should just start a new match-up topic since this one isn't telling us anything we don't already know.

you can shieldgrab, usually, the third hit. By that time, no matter how good their spacing [and if you consider perfect spacing to mean that the first hit of dancing blade is perfectly spaced to hit you], by the third hit, they will be in your ****. I never thought of doing that til it was mentioned in the last day or so on here...so thanks to whoever said that

Mario boards are discussing Mario vs Rob.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5892405&posted=1#post5892405

Understanding that this is last weeks discussion, I feel that this is one of the few match-ups that I understand very well, so I offer up what I can.

For starters, F-Smash. F-Smash hard, and angle it up, Always. This ruins Marth's aerial approach and keeps you relatively safe with your OP disjointed hit-box. ASIDE; I can recall, during a warm-up, hitting my friend with 7 consecutive F-smashes on FD, walking away unscathed.

That being said, like most other character match-ups, don't play in his face for to long, you can't spam Ftilt and F-smash all day. Once you feel like you have him on the defensive, back away and start up with the gyro/laser-game, otherwise you'll get hit with a tipper near the edge, and that's never enjoyable.

...On the subject of gyros, good Marth's will see gyro-glides coming and will punish with down-B accordingly; use the backwards gyro-glide to space instead.

In Marth's favor, his Fair comes out quick, ruling out aggro-ROBs' Fair spam...

...and Marth has strong game while underneath ROB, making for difficult approaches for ROB and harsh counterpicks in Marths favor.

Overall, I believe this is a heavy stage dependent match-up. Stages like Battlefield and Smashvile play heavily into Marth's strengths, while Frigate and Mansion play comfortably into ROB's

I vote 50-50.

50/50 is my say.
and thx BO!
=]

So, this discussion was beat to death forever ago, hence me not posting for a while, but I feel like doing it now. Rawr.

50-50 Match-up.

ROB Advantages vs Marth:
-Has Projectiles
-Better Recovery
-Heavier
-Good Gimping Options

Marth Advantages vs ROB:
-Better Spacing Options
-Near Guaranteed Punishes When We Hit His Shield
-Forces ROB to Recover High
-Great Juggling Options

Obviously there's other advantages in there, but these are the ones I feel are most important.

As for general things vs Marth. I find that I switch up my play-style the -most- against a Marth. Marth works much the same as he did in Melee in the fact that he is a punishing character. It's not as bad as it was in Melee, but if you mess up, you're almost guaranteed 20% damage. That combined with excellent spacing options means you're going to be put into bad positions a lot. Best way to remedy this is to keep changing how you play. Camp for a bit. Poke for a bit. Gyro Play for a bit. Aggro for a bit(Aggro is probably going to be the least used style.). Just keep mixing it up as much as possible. Mix it up within the different "styles" too. I don't think there's any character in the game (bar-MK) that you absolutely need to mix it up as much against.

Off Stage, whoever has the ledge essentially *****. Marth's BAir out ranges all of ROB's aerials and is disjointed. If you're caught in your Up-B low, you're screwed. Dolphin Slash can and will Stage-spike. Recover High. Launch a Gyro onto the stage and land behind it or go under the stage if possible. It's really not that hard to recover as ROB, you just can't go to the ledge closest to you.

As for edge guarding Marth, pretty simple. Go after him, hard. The option I've found to work best is something OverSwarm suggested forever ago. Fall with him while charging a gyro out of his range. Shoot your gyro at him once he's low enough and he either has to airdodge, catch it, or get hit. If he does either of the first two, free FAir. BAir will usually trade with his Up-B when timed right, beat it in certain situations, and is rather nice for close to the stage edge-guarding. Don't bother trying for a headbutt.

Approaches in this match are weird. ROB doesn't want to or have to approach Marth, but Marth doesn't really have to approach ROB either. Once he gets mildly close at all, ROB can't use his projectiles anymore but he doesn't quite have the range to pressure Marth. Marth's superior maneuverability gives him an advantage here unless you have a Gyro close by. Glide-toss approaches (thrown down, forward, or back until they start expecting that, then throw in the random forward throw for mindgames) to get in quickly or glide-toss retreats if you have the room for more camping. Having one on the ground at just around your FTilt range is a great idea as well. This messes up some of his spacing options unless he swats it away or grabs it. The only safe option he has to knock it away is a well spaced DTilt which means a free laser and that usually puts the gyro on ROB anyway which means glide tossing beauty.


All in all. Keep a gyro about FTilt's distance away. Don't be too aggressive off stage but don't be afraid to go out (what ROB is, anyway?). When recovering, rarely will going straight for the ledge work. There's a lot more that's been said already, so I'm just gonna leave it at that for now.

Weekish (depending on how I feel and input from other ROBs) from today I'll put up the Match-up numbers. I'm saying 50-50 for now.

Go for the ROB Ken Combo!!!!!!!!
About 3 FAirs off the ledge will leave them too far to recover.
Ez kill.

^sarcasm?

its been a while since i've been able to WOP somebody and gimp their recovery that way

Anyone opposed to calling this match-up 50-50? Same deal as the DK thread, got till tomorrow night to say something then it's going down as 50-50 and I'm writing my match-up synopsis.

I've said it was 50/50 all along, so yeah, I totally agrees with it. It's been beaten to death so much that when I fight a Marth I'm just like "gawd, this again".

60-40 Marth IMO

But I'm used to getting my *** ***** by Dr. Peepee so maybe my view is flawed

I always believed it was 55:45 Rob. But 50:50 sounds good to me.