Tips, Tricks, and General Advice for Using ZSS (Updated 03-24-2009)

Down Special
This move has several different parts to it and it is extremely helpful to your game when used correctly. First off, there are 12 frames of invincibility at the beginning of this move. This makes in excellent for escaping all manner of combos and sticky situations. This move always travels in an arc and the direction of the arc can be reversed by hitting diagonally down+backwards. It is an excellent recovery move and comes with a very dangerous spike to discourage gimping. The kick on this move can be edge-canceled, meaning if you space it such that you flipjump off a platform/stage and land on the very edge you will fall off and be able to do any move you want.
There is also the flipstool. At ANY time after you being the move you can hit jump ONCE and if your arc travels above a physical object you will get a very large footstool jump boost. The direction of the footstool can be changed by inputting a direction right as the jump begins. You can even flipstool an edgehogging character while they are invulnerable on the edge.

What can be Flipstooled:

• Character's bodies
• Disjointed attacks
• Physical projectiles
• Items

What cannot:

• Platforms
• Energy Projectiles
• Explosions

Up Special
For recovery, this move has a dual purpose. Firstly, it is your main vertical recovery move, it will tether to an edge from a distance of 2.5 small stage builder blocks, and at least 45 degrees to the vertical on either side of you.
The second purpose is that you can also use this move to increase your jump height significantly. Immediately after you press the jump button, press up-B to receive a 33% boost in jump height. You can get a boost in this method after any jump (first jump, second jump, wall jump, even footstool and flipstool jump). The main time you will use it is to gain extra height after being knocked off the stage at a low angle, or to avoid using your tether and being edgehogged.

Side Special
This is your main horizontal recovery move. Use it after down-B to gain twice the horizontal distance of either alone. It will tether the edge from 3 stage builder blocks away horizontally and will tether at 45 degrees to the horizontal, above and below. It is possible to "wavebounce" this move to add to your horizontal recovery distance, but it is very difficult to do so with the standard control setup and yields very little gain

Recovering Properly
Since your recovery revolves around the use of tethers for the most part, you are very vulnerable to edgehogging if you do not know what you are doing. One important thing to learn before you read the rest of this is proper DI and momentum canceling. (I will not explain Directional Influnece, SmashDI, and momentum canceling here, do a search in the tactical forums for more information.) Once you can DI a hit properly you will be able to survive longer, and approach the edge from higher up. This allows you time to plan how to approach the stage and prepare for whatever your opponent is ready to dish out.
Since Zero Suit's tethers have quite a bit of range to them you can catch an opponent off guard by tethering quickly with side-B and zipping up the tether immediately (press up). This is the most desirable option because once you hit the edge you gain your double jump again. However, you don't always get the chance to tether to the edge like this because of an character on the edge or in the way of your path.
Because your opponent is not going to sit by and let you make it back to the stage, it is highly advisable that you save your jumps, both your second jump and your down-B. These can really come in handy to bypass a character who is jumping out after you or hanging on or around the edge to try and prevent your recovery. If your enemy hangs on the edge too early, you have two great options to deal with them. You can use side-B to hit them, and likely stage-spike them to their doom, or you can use your jumps to avoid them all together and land on the stage. Always use up-B to increase the height of your jump, it doesn't increase your horizontal distance, but you stay in the air longer which can help you stall and wait out your opponents invincibility frames on the edge.
If you can't wait out their invincibility and you can't make the extra distance to the stage you should use the down-B and flipstool. As already explained, the flipstool can still trigger on an opponent on the edge if they are invulnerable.

If you can keep track of all this, and throw out the correct moves at the correct place and time you should have no trouble making it back to the stage or the edge in most circumstances.







Neutral Special
Stun time is based on whether the move was charged. There is no option to half charge this move, it is either not charged or fully charged. The fully charged version travels further than the uncharged version. The amount of time stunned depends solely on whether it was charged or not. The uncharged version will not stun long enough to do anything more than grab or dash attack unless you are right beside the foe.

Down Smash
Stun time is based on the enemy's damage percentage. Doing another down smash will not increase the stun time. Down smash will not combo after an up-B. Down smash is excellent for setting up your kill moves like back air and forward air.

You can get down smash chains on the following characters: (ranked in order of chain length)

• Fox (0-100%)
• Wolf (0-60%)
• Falco (0-45%)
• Sheik (0-30%)
• Captain Falcon (0-20%)

(These values are rough estimates and depend on DI and how stale your down smash is)

Against every character but Fox (you would chain Fox even if this worked), down smash will lead to an inescapable down-B spike at any percentage. If you ever happen to down smash a character near the edge you can get this kill at 0% on most characters. Some have a good enough recovery to survive.

Now What?
Stunning with neutral-B does not leave you a lot of time and you should just attempt to dash attack, ftilt or grab depending on how far away you are from your foe. Another option is to just do nothing and back up to reset your spacing properly.

Stunning with down smash however opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. These are some of the best variations that you can do at different percentages. AT low and medium percentages you want to put on as much damage as you can, at high percentages you want to set up a killing move. In brackets is how much damage dealt by the particular option.

Reliable from 0% up
Dsmash>Dsmash>Utilt (32%)
Dsmash>Dsmash>Uair (31%) Killing Combo ~150%+
Dsmash>Dsmash>Dtilt (27%)
Dsmash>Dsmash>Grab>Dthrow (28%)
Dsmash>Dsmash>Grab>Fthrow (30%)

Reliable from about 20% to 60% (character dependent)
Dsmash>Dsmash>Dash Attack>Utilt (39%)
Dsmash>Dsmash>Up-B>Utilt (48%)*

Reliable from ~30% up
Dsmash>Dsmash>Bair (34%) - Killing Combo ~120%+
Dsmash>Dsmash>Fair (38%)* - Killing Combo ~130%+

Reliable from ~75% and up
Dsmash>Dsmash>Retreating SH>Side-B (37%) Killing Combo ~130%+

A (*) indicates that part of the combo can be SDIed out of, lessening its reliability.

Moves that are not reliable at 0% can be increased in reliability by only performing a single down smash. This lessens the damage output though and most of the time is not worth it.
However, performing a single down smash followed by a side-B is often a much better choice even if it takes another 10% to get the kill. The best choice for killing out of a stun is bair.




Glide Tossing
A glide toss counts as a strong throw, and biggest benefit that you get out of the throw is that you slide forwards about 1/4 to 1/3 of the length of Final Destination. There are several tricks that you can use with glide tossing and it is best to mix it up to keep your opponent guessing (commonly referred to as armor part mindgames). Here's how it's done:

Glide Tossing: Start a forward roll (ZSS gets no distance out of a backwards glide toss) while holding an item, then throw the item before the roll animation begins. You can use the C-stick to throw the item up, down, left, or right but throwing up/down slightly shortens the distance you get out of the toss.

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Glide Tossing Tricks

• Glide toss forwards and use your forward momentum to do a sliding jab combo/tilt. This will normally connect if the armor part connects, or possibly punish a spot dodge depending on your timing. This is unsafe on block.
• Glide toss forwards/up/down and use your forward momentum to do a sliding grab. This is excellent against people who shield the armor piece, but it will be punished by a spot dodge.
• Face away from your opponent and roll away from them but glide toss the piece backwards so it travels at them. This will not get you punished, and it may catch an opponent off guard, but it may just give the piece to a shielding opponent and you don't want to do that. This is however useful if have already throw a piece at your opponent and you followed after it and retrieved it. Your retreating sliding brings you right back to the other two pieces at your starting pile allowing you to have the upper hand once again even if you lose one piece.
• Another reverse facing glide toss technique is tossing it downwards to cover your retreat. If you are against an opponent like Snake who you do not want to fight in close combat you can glide toss away and smash the piece downwards to create a wall in between the two of you.

Jump-Canceled Throw
Glide tossing is only one component to the tricks you can play with your armor. This is a nice alternative that has some different advantages
From FadedImage:

FadedImage said:

JC throws can be extremely useful to Zero Suit Samus and her suit piece game. It allows ZSS to perform a standing item throw during her dash animation (and subsequently canceling the dash).


To perform a Jump Canceled Item Throw: during your dash animation press a jump button and a throw button at nearly the same time (most commonly X/Y + Z) while holding the direction you wish to throw the piece (alternatively, you may use the C-stick instead of throw + direction). Normally, ZSS would just throw the piece forward in a manner that leaves her in lag for a significant amount of time. However, by jumping and throwing at the same time, ZSS will perform her item throw as if she were standing neutral (much like Jump Canceled Grabs in Melee). In this way, you can open up many options while dashing with a suit piece. Instead of just throwing forward in a laggy manner, you can now throw in any direction (up, down, left or right) and have just as much lag as when throwing standing (basically none).

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Keeping Them Alive
Armor pieces have a set lifetime that is determined by a timer that only counts down while the pieces are immobile on the ground. To keep your armor for as long as possible you want to keep it in the air. You can just continually keep throwing the pieces around but there are more advanced techniques for keeping the pieces alive out there. A good example is this neat juggling technique developed by Snakeee that is well worth trying out:

Snakeee said:

Armor part juggle - I have done this for a while but I just recently realized just how useful it is. It allows you to spam an attack and infinitely re-grab an armor part. The biggest thing is that with this approach your part will never fly off the stage unless the opponent breaks this. What you do is grab an armor part, short hop, smash throw it into the floor, and up-air as the piece comes back up at you. This is very spammable, as you can do this over and over with ease once you get the hang of it. If you think you'll get hit doing short hops you can also do full jumps, but there is more of a chance of you losing the part that way. With this you can destroy your opponents shield as you're hitting with both an armor part and an an up-air. By doing this you can save an armor part for a long time, sometimes even onto the last stock! Along with this the best things you can do with the armor are forward and backwards glide tosses.

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There is also walling which was hinted to above. This happens when you continually throw one piece upwards and one downwards. This creates a wall that you can hide behind to protect yourself.

Another interesting game to play is to just hold an armor piece in your hand. This creates a situation threatening to your opponent and it will make them go on the defensive, giving you an opportunity to take control of the match. You can also continually use forward and neutral specials to keep them off balance and apply shield pressure. If you happen to hit with the neutral B, throw the piece and then reset the situation. If they have taken to shielding your hits, do a glide toss downwards followed by a grab>forward throw>dash attack>utilt.

Picking up the Pieces
Armor pieces are items and can be picked up in all the same ways. Walking over to it and pressing A will do but this is often the least desirable method because you are standing still and open to attack. A dash attack over the piece is the standard method of picking a piece up off the ground. It's fast and won't interrupt the flow of your play. This can also catch an armor piece that is thrown at you but it is difficult to time precisely and often you miss and get hit. From the air there are varied options.

When the piece is in the air, all aerials will pick an armor part up as well as an air dodge or grab. The grab is special because if you pick up the piece at the very beginning there is no lag and you can immediately do anything else. When a piece is lying on the ground and you are in the air you can pick it up as if it was in the air. If an opponent is standing near the piece it is possible to use an air attack that both hits the opponent and picks up the piece at the same time. Nair, Fair, and Uair work well for this and Bair can work but there is only a 1-2 frame window to do it properly. Dair will also work but the landing lag makes this an undesirable option.

If the opponent is not standing near the piece it is often best to use an air-dodge or Uair to pick it off the ground because they have the least landing lag.
The last method is very useful in certain circumstances: If you are standing next to an armor piece and your opponent is approaching you in the air you can jump and immediately do a rising aerial that will pick up the piece and hit your opponent in the process.





Jab
This move come out in ONE FRAME. It can interrupt all sorts of enemy attacks and combos. It will stop many horizontal moving attacks like Fox/Falco's phantasm and the Ice Climber's Squall Hammer. The problem with this move is the 3-hit jab combo. It doesn't combo on the majority of the cast. It's advisable that you mix it up by crouch canceling after the second jab (hitting down afterward) and using a D-tilt.

To explain the sequence of events that can happen I quote FadedImage:

First/Second Jab -> Third Jab connects
In this situation, you got lucky and he didn't shield your third jab, you did 3 damage with it, and in no way can you follow it up.
First/Second Jab -> Third Jab shielded
In this scenario, you got your jab perfect shielded, and will now get ***** by a shieldgrab with most characters, and various out-of-shield options with other chars, (marth's up-b, boozer's dsmash, etc.)
First/Second Jab -> D-Tilt connects
Now, to pull off a d-tilt you cancel the third jab with a crouch. They've been hit twice by your jabs, so they're probably trying to shield or spotdodge. By the time their shield is out, you should be crouched ready to d-tilt. That's usually enough time for them to realize you're done, and that they should do something. This is when you d-tilt to try to hit them out of whatever they choose to do out of their shield. Now you've connected with a solid hit that can be stringed into short hopped aerials.
First/Second Jab -> D-Tilt shielded
Same thing as above, except you mistimed the d-tilt or they kept their shield up and waited for you. If they are in range to shieldgrab, you'll still get hit by that, however, most other out of shield options will be less viable. Anything that involves completely dropping your shield to perform a move is out of the question, since you'll be able to d-tilt/jab right away to punish them dropping their shield, (which leads to basically the same chain of events).

So, with the jabs, you don't have nearly as many options or contingencies as you do with the d-tilt. For instance, I often find myself shield pressuring with jab-jab-d-tilt-jab-d-tilt. The two jabs make them think I'll do a third, the d-tilt baits them into counter, the jab is fast enough to interrupt anything after, and the d-tilt to mix it up some more.

I mean, canceling to D-tilt is basically the same as holding back the third jab for a second or so, the difference is that d-tilt is just an overall better option (less lag, more damage, better shieldstab potential, more combo potential, etc.)

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Characters that cannot shield the third hit:
- Jigglypuff
- Squirtle
- Mr. Game and Watch
- ROB??
- Toon Link??

Forward Tilt
This move has some special properties:
- It can be aimed upwards or downwards. When you perform a low ftilt the move actually does 9% instead of the usual 6% and does more knockback as well.
- At low percentages this move will trip the opponent allowing for some good followups.
- When the opponent is on the ground and you hit them ftilt can make them bounce. This allow you to perform a short "jab lock" and it will force the opponent to get up slowly. You will have enough time during the get up animation to stun the character.
(to properly perform a the lock you have to dash attack after every second ftilt)

Dash Attack
This is a versatile move but it is also dangerous to use. If you throw it out as an approach you will get shield-grabbed. However, If you are chasing after a foe then this is excellent. At low percentages it will combo with a Jab. At low-medium percentages it will combo with utilt. At medium-high percentages you can connect dtilt or another dash attack but neither is actually guaranteed.
Along with ftilt, this move can be used to lock a foe in the bouncing animation.

Moves to Avoid Using

Down Air
This move is suicide if used off stage, I have only come across a couple decent uses for it, and they are VERY situational.

Use #1

Snakeee said:

D smash - D air spike (or just D-air): Under certain stages that have a thin floor, such as Delphino, you can D smash someone that is under the stage and then quickly short hop D air them to spike. This works great on characters that like to mindgame and attack from under the stage. Also, this is a lot more obvious but you can just d-air them through the floor.

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Use #2
Scenario: You get hit upwards by a character, they are on the ground and you are coming down (there are no platforms). You come into their range and they will normally do one of the following:
a) start an utilt/usmash etc to hit you.
b) shield against your approach
c) jump up to hit you
d) move out of the way

Heres what you do:
a) jump out of the way of the attack and immediately Dair their sorry ass while they are in the ending lag of the move.
b) bair the shield and roll/run away or jump away
c) airdodge and now you are underneath them and in good position
d) land

Forward Smash
This move is very laggy (starting and ending) and best use out of a stun if at all.
The other problem with this move is that only the part of the whip nearest to ZSS actually gains any benefit from charging the smash attack.
It's only redeeming feature is that it is the only fsmash in the game that hits on both sides.

Up Throw
This has a fair bit of ending lag and doesn't kill. Thoroughly useless.




Non-Projectile Users:
Since ZSS out-ranges all non-projectile characters both above and to the side you should always use this to your advantage. Try to keep the opponent at the length of the tip of the side special until they are in a disadvantaged position. Then run in (or jump up) and do what damage you can before retreating.
You can keep the opponent at bay with several moves. The most common is of course side-B. Since it has little ending lag, a short hopped (SHed) side-B is quite safe unless you mis-space it and they land in the dead zone.
Neutral special is another good spacing move. The uncharged version comes out a bit slow, but it travels far enough that even if it is power shielded, you still have time to react afterwards.
Down Smash is also quite good for spacing because there is little ending lag, and it has surprising range (out-ranging ROB's ftilt)
If you get a stun with either of the last 2 moves, don't hesitate to rush in for more damage before resetting the situation.

Projectile Users:
These characters can be more difficult for ZSS to combat effectively because her projectile is slow and easily telegraphed. Maintaining the correct spacing is even more important here because you cannot out-camp the character so you have to stay within the medium range where ZSS is most comfortable. Close enough that you can short hop over a projectile and side-B the character immediately. Falco, and Pit are the worst offenders here because their projectiles are fast and have little lag. Practice power-shielding the projectiles to make an approach and stay within the correct range.





Who to Team With?
There are several characters who are all around good team players, and can be slotted with any other character and do well, but some characters have special tricks and combos with ZSS that make the pair stand out.


Mr. Game and Watch - This is the best team character for ZSS. He is an all around excellent teammate, with strength and excellent recovery options. He stand out particularly however, for his down special: The Bucket.

Snake - This is another character that does well in teams for the same reason he does well in singles. His tilts cover an immense area and he can kill at very low percentages. If you are coordinated with your teammate he can litter the field with explosives that severely restrict movement and create havoc.


Luigi - Luigi is a combo machine, and has high priority. He kills at low percentages but he's kinda slow.


Jigglypuff - Jigglypuff is very light, and may die easily, but she is also hard to hit. She excels at gimping, and can survive anything that doesn't outright kill her.


Ness/Lucas - These two characters can be discussed together because their attacks have similar properties, and you can perform many of the same tricks with both.



Other Characters
Here are some other characters that work well with ZSS in teams, but don't really have anything notable or special (other than maybe a decently powerful move).


2v1 Tricks

• ZSS can d-smash the remaining enemy, then your teammate can footstool them for an infinite lock.
• If the enemy is being pummeled, ZSS can wait for the ground break and do a single jab. This allows your teammate to immediately regrab.
• The regrab infinite can also be accomplished with a down-smash. Especially with a teammate who is a tether-grabbing character.

More Coming Soon!

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Questions:
1. Can someone with a friend test which characters can shield the third hit of ZSS's jab?
2. Am I missing any objects that can/cannot be flipstooled?

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I want this to be an effort of the whole ZSS board. If you have anything to add feel free to post it here and I'll add your info and credit you.

This could also be used as a topic to discuss the testing that we have been doing (talking to you ph00tbag and Faded...) instead of spamming up my other thread.

Turn this into a semi-guide and keep it updated. We need one badly.

Something just occurred to me... I should have used "TheZeroSuit" to post this. That way other people would be able to update it if I can't.

Why are you so good at making useful threads? lol...I wish I had that talent

This is very good for a WIP. It would have been nice to have when I first started using ZSS, keep up the good work!

Nice guide Adept.

Adapt said:

Questions:
Can you tether the edge and attack with side-B at the same time... I have seen something similar happen in BTT4 where it attempted to tether but destroyed a target but I dunno if this is actually possible.

Click to expand...

As far as this goes, I'm pretty sure side-B cannot perform both functions with the same attack. I'll run some tests to double check this when I get home from work.

I've gone through the whole Q&A thread and have compiled the most frequently asked questions/requested advice. Will get the whole thing up some time over the weekend, but here are a couple things I can think of right now (feel free to re-phrase however you think would suit the thread best):

Q: Does the jab combo have any uses?
A: ZSS has the fastest single jab in the game, but unfortunately, the full combo only works on Mr Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, as all other characters are able to perfect shield and punish it. Against the rest of the cast, it is advised to do one or two hits, and then cancel into a D-tilt.

FadedImage said:

First/Second Jab -> Third Jab connects
In this situation, you got lucky and he didn't shield your third jab, you did 3 damage with it, and in no way can you follow it up.
First/Second Jab -> Third Jab shielded
In this scenario, you got your jab perfect shielded, and will now get ***** by a shieldgrab with most characters, and various out-of-shield options with other chars, (marth's up-b, boozer's dsmash, etc.)
First/Second Jab -> D-Tilt connects
Now, to pull off a d-tilt you cancel the third jab with a crouch. They've been hit twice by your jabs, so they're probably trying to shield or spotdodge. By the time their shield is out, you should be crouched ready to d-tilt. That's usually enough time for them to realize you're done, and that they should do something. This is when you d-tilt to try to hit them out of whatever they choose to do out of their shield. Now you've connected with a solid hit that can be stringed into short hopped aerials.
First/Second Jab -> D-Tilt shielded
Same thing as above, except you mistimed the d-tilt or they kept their shield up and waited for you. If they are in range to shieldgrab, you'll still get hit by that, however, most other out of shield options will be less viable. Anything that involves completely dropping your shield to perform a move is out of the question, since you'll be able to d-tilt/jab right away to punish them dropping their shield, (which leads to basically the same chain of events).

So, with the jabs, you don't have nearly as many options or contingencies as you do with the d-tilt. For instance, I often find myself shield pressuring with jab-jab-d-tilt-jab-d-tilt. The two jabs make them think I'll do a third, the d-tilt baits them into counter, the jab is fast enough to interrupt anything after, and the d-tilt to mix it up some more.

I mean, cancelling to D-tilt is basically the same as holding back the third jab for a second or so, the difference is that d-tilt is just an overall better option (less lag, more damage, better shieldstab potential, more combo potential, etc.)

Click to expand...

(Note: Somebody mentioned the combo works on R.O.B and Toon Link - is anybody able to confirm?)


Q: How do I do the Glide Toss?
A: Start any roll (ZSS gets no distance out of a backwards glide toss though) while holding an item, then throw the item before the roll animation begins. You can use the C-stick to throw the item in any of the four directions, but throwing up/down slightly shortens the distance you get out of the toss.
For more information on glide tossing and other ATs see http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187873

There's gonna be a whole section on how to effectively use the armor pieces when I get a chance to write it

Btw it's amusing that the post you quoted as by me was not in fact by me (ph00tbag I think), and the two quotes that you didn't attribute are both by me

Adapt said:

There's gonna be a whole section on how to effectively use the armor pieces when I get a chance to write it

Btw it's amusing that the post you quoted as by me was not in fact by me (ph00tbag I think)

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Haha, oops!

I mixed up two quotes between you and FadedImage :embarrass

and the two quotes that you didn't attribute are both by me

Click to expand...

I couldn't find your exact post for the 1st bit, so didn't want to wrap the quote tags around it just yet, and the glide toss answer was assembled from 3 different posts =O

Nice guide thingy.

Updated with armor part mindgames. Tell me if you know any others I can add

Well i need a lot of tips against falco and game and watch.

At this time I am not planning to have character specific advice. We already have a couple threads for that. This topic is for general advice and tricks you can use to improve your ZSS play.

If you left your armor piece on a platform (battlefield, smashville, etc.) you can z-pick them up from the air like Diddy does with bananas for no lag from doing an airial or air dodging to pick it up. If you want to do an airial while holding a suit piece, z drop it, then use an airial. You'll be able to use your back-air for example and you'll automatically pick up your suit piece afterwards from the airial move pick up items mechanic. Snake and Diddy use these tricks pretty often, you should add these to the top.

Good post, Taalcon. I feel like I don't see enough ZSSes use the z-pick-up on Battlefield, and I think it's very useful.

Also, I'm pretty sure that once you've picked up a piece, you can't throw it until you've touched the ground. I'd have to test this out to be sure, but I seem to recall having that happen to me before.

For a ZSS beginner, this is a good resource. Looking forward to future updates

Worth mentioning that down B into a wall will cause an automatic wall-jump.*cough*

Also,
Q: Is there a way to not auto wall jump with down B? Sometimes it ends up KILLING me when I don't want it to auto wall jump. For example, sometimes I try to down B, then up B before my opponent has time to edge hog, but then I auto wall jump off the edge which gives him time to hug the edge and edge hog me.

A:

ph00tbag said:

If you hold down while near a wall in the Flip Jump animation, you won't auto wall jump

Click to expand...

(Note, this will mean you won't grab the ledge either)

Q: Is there any way to not sweet spot the ledge with b-up? This might sound like a stupid question but it would make spiking with b-up much easier. I know that holding down during a normal b-up makes it not sweet spot, but I can't get that to work with Zamus'.
A:

ph00tbag said:

Press diagonally up and away instead of straight up. *Warning* may cause you to recoil special.

Click to expand...

What does it mean when it says you can flip-stool disjointed attacks? Does that mean you can flipstool the hitboxes?? Or do I have the meaning of disjointed attacks mixed up?

kuenzel said:

What does it mean when it says you can flip-stool disjointed attacks? Does that mean you can flipstool the hitboxes?? Or do I have the meaning of disjointed attacks mixed up?

Click to expand...

You can flipstool the hitboxes.

Mr. Ious, nice Leviathan avatar.

I've been doing some testing, and it looks like Peach/Kirby can't shield the second/third hits of the jab combo either?
Most characters (all the ones I've tested so far) actually get lifted slightly off the ground by the first hit, allowing the second to connect, but by the time the third is coming out, they've already made it back to ground and can powershield. Also, since the first hit of the combo is 0% KGR, it doesn't matter what percentage they're at, it either works all the time or doesn't work at all.

DeliciousCake said:

You can flipstool the hitboxes.

Mr. Ious, nice Leviathan avatar.

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Thanks (Lancaster )
You play much SS back in the day?

Mr.Ious said:

Thanks (Lancaster )
You play much SS back in the day?

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Haha yeah, realized that it was a Lancaster a little while after I posted. Yeah I used to play on Extreme Games and Trench Wars alot. I spent a good chunk of time on Metal Gear CTF when Julius Caesar and Callidus still ran the joint. It's really going downhill now, the map sucks and all of the classes are screwed up.

I completely agree with the jab cancel and d-tilt combos to another jab. Works very well, the jab cancels can also work with tech chasing, since ZSS has a decent dash attack.

I'm wondering why nobody bothered to mention the f-tilt. As far as having unique-ish properties, we all know that when directed downward, its dmg inceases (from 6% to 9%), along with its knockback and chance of tripping.

I just figure it should be included in the ground moves section.

I don't think anyone has confirmed that the CHANCE of tripping actually goes up. We DO know that you can trip opponents at a higher percent with NORMAL f-tilt. The increased knockback of FD-Tilt means you send opponents into tumble faster.


Also, I'm mainly bumping for this little gem of a technique that I don't see anyone use:

RAR'd jump Up-B boosts for edgeguard

It's not really it's own technique, but a very useful combination of other techz. When you send an opponent off the stage and you predict a high recovery (I'm looking at you Snake) dash towards the edge, reverse the analog stick (to begin a RAR), jump and perform an up-b with the analog stick still pointing towards the stage (to prevent accidental pivots). This will put ZSS very high in the air, almost off stage, with her back facing the recovering opponent (perfect for B-Air).

Like I said, I know this is just a combination of other techs, but it's EXTREMELY useful and actually takes practice to not accidentally re-pivot with the up-b.

Once I started using this I can't tell you how many extra KOs I've gotten from b-airs and u-airs at such an extreme height. When your opponent catches on to the b-airs, they'll airdodge straight into your u-air, it's genius!


another one:
ledge flipkick:
After edgehogging someone's up-b with invincibility frames, forcing them to recover onto the stage (characters like Marth, Ganon, GaW, etc.) immediately drop off the ledge and down-b, you should get just barely high enough so that you get the kick out just before you land. If successful, you should hit your laggy opponent (from the up-b land lag) on the ground (down-b's strongest hit) close to the edge and towards the wall. Think of it like a CFalcon ledgehopped knee in melee. It's a great way to punish anyone with an up-b with large landing lag that's difficult to edgehog otherwise.

oh yeah, you should probably add to the ground attack section that the f-tilt and dash attack ground lock at low percents.

After I finish my exams and presentations I will update this. But atm I am a bit too busy

Adapt said:

After I finish my exams and presentations I will update this. But atm I am a bit too busy

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You could repost it as TheZeroSuit

btw, who is part of that account?
I'm assuming Cake, Snakeee, FadedImage, Adapt,

DeliciousCake said:

Wait who the **** posted this? I'm assuming it was Bouse.

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and Bouse?

Or is this supposed to be a big secret???

I don't have access to TheZeroSuit

Otherwise I would have. Cake, Faded, and Bouse seem to be the only people who have the pass, and maybe ph00tbag


If anyone wants to write a detailed explanation of some trick or tip I can easily add it to the OP and credit you

Adapt said:

I don't have access to TheZeroSuit

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Oh.

ph00tbag said:

Also, I'm pretty sure that once you've picked up a piece, you can't throw it until you've touched the ground. I'd have to test this out to be sure, but I seem to recall having that happen to me before.

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Btw, I fooled around, and this is confirmed. You must touch the ground before you can throw a caught item. Otherwise, you can do as many aerails as you want.

Adapt said:

I don't have access to TheZeroSuit

Otherwise I would have. Cake, Faded, and Bouse seem to be the only people who have the pass, and maybe ph00tbag


If anyone wants to write a detailed explanation of some trick or tip I can easily add it to the OP and credit you

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I know I do, and I know Bouse does. I'm fairly sure the other two do, too. I can PM you the pw, if you'd like.

Adapt said:

A glide toss counts as a strong throw

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hummm

never really thought about it but

if you T-stick or do a jump-cancelled throw with a tilted control stick, would it be possible to do a 'weak' glide toss :random:

If that's so, you might come up with some weird crap if you can pull off manual glidetossing (it's technically difficult but possible to pull off lol) or at least have control of a JC weak forward throw.

:3

I don't have a wii to test things out on atm so I'll leave it to you guys.

Weak JC throw/glide toss would be pretty cool.

The difference between strong throw and weak throw is more complicated. It's actually a continuum based on the velocity of the piece. Smash thrown pieces out of a glide toss do the most damage while bouncing pieces do the least.

At least that's what I recall. I'll test it out now.

Edit: I can confirm this pretty easily, actually. A drop from short hop height does 6%, and from full jump height it does 8%.

Well, I never really pay attention to item damage since I don't use characters that spawn them, but I'm going for placement difference more than anything.

ph00tbag said:

I know I do, and I know Bouse does. I'm fairly sure the other two do, too. I can PM you the pw, if you'd like.

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Sure, if I have any other topics to create I'll use the shared account so it can be updated.


@Tenki

I don't think so, because I occasionally roll and hit the A button to do a glide toss and I don't remember there being and difference. Just hitting A is normally a weak throw

ph00tbag said:

I know I do, and I know Bouse does. I'm fairly sure the other two do, too. I can PM you the pw, if you'd like.

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lol @ "The Abuse of Power Thread", that made my day.

Just for the record, I don't remember the password for TheZeroSuit. Adapt should get access to it though.

Adapt said:

@Tenki

I don't think so, because I occasionally roll and hit the A button to do a glide toss and I don't remember there being and difference. Just hitting A is normally a weak throw

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Buuuut- are you holding forward and hit A while holding forward?

;o

I just noticed in the armor section it doesn't mention jump cancelled throws. This is as great alternative to the glide toss, since it can be performed while already on the move. It also reduces the lag of a regular dash thrown piece.

Pretty simple to do too, just like jump cancelling u-smash back in melee. Jump and hit a c-stick direction at practically the same time, voila, JC throw.

I dunno much about the difference between a JC throw and a dash throw. Care to write a little paragraph up about it?

I updated a few sections, I added stuff about ftilt and dash attack. I also began the section how you should be thinking

Another little tidbit that may be useful regarding pieces is that running up to a piece and sliding your finger from jump to attack allows you to jump and quickly pick up the piece. After that you will perform the aerial that corresponds to the direction you are holding without throwing it. Just another way to add options.

Another idea that I recently found is that you can cancel the dash halting animation with the standing item pick-up animation. Basically, stop when you get to the item, then press A. This is only useful during the normal dash halting animation, and not the initial dash animation, which cannot be canceled at any point. This is useful because it is faster than a dash attack if you're already dashing toward a suit piece and haven't just started the initial dash animation.