R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #3: Wario

JCaesar · Nov 24, 2008

WARIO

Sudai asked me to make the matchup thread this week because he's out of contact for the time being. Discuss!

JCaesar · Nov 24, 2008

I'll kick it off by saying, as long as Wario doesn't struggle, ROB can't grab-release him (on flat ground of course). Every good Wario will know this. Bad Warios can be grab-release->usmashed for easy kills ~100% though :laugh:

I personally put the matchup at 65-35 ROB, but I know people will disagree with me.

Edit: My thoughts from the previous ROB vs Wario discussion about a month ago.

JCaesar007 said:
Clearly spamming spotdodge is a bad idea in this matchup, just like in ROB vs Peach. It's not so crucial that ROB can't live without it, it just forces ROB to be a bit more mobile on the ground than usual.

That's exactly how I play vs Wario though: walk back and forth with ftilts/utilts whenever Wario tries to get in close. ROB doesn't really have a blindspot above him, though he's somewhat open from about 45-60 degrees up if he stays stationary. Ftilt can be angled upward and utilt has surprising horizontal range and can do major damage if you get caught in it and try to DI out.

Platforms are a great boost to ROB as long as he's grounded. I admit he can have trouble getting down vs Wario, but if ROB is getting overwhelmed he can fly to the edge where Wario can't do much to him. I would easily take Battlefield over FD in this matchup, just because ROB can make it frustratingly difficult for Wario to approach by just standing under a platform. Dair bombs are Wario's best approach vs ROB and platforms eliminate them entirely and force him to approach low where he gets massively outranged. If Wario SHADes in, follow the ftilt with a dsmash. Simple.

In the air, ROB is vulnerable from below, but from any other angle, ROB wins. Fair and bair are disjointed and high-priority enough to beat any of Wario's aerials. Same with uair, though I think a fastfalled dair might be able to break through, I can't remember.

I've played a lot of this match with Slikvik, one of the best Warios in MD/VA, and he refuses to use Wario against my ROB now because the matches were getting so one-sided.

JCaesar (ROB) vs SlikVik (Wario)
Smashville - some funny wheel combos early on
Yoshi's Story - fair and Wario's ftilt trade hits, be careful with that
Battlefield - ftilts and grab release -> usmashes, poor Wario, nothing he can do

That last match is what put him over the edge.

Maybe if Vik sees this (I know you search your name) he can add his 2 cents.

Oh and yeah, you're right about the grab-releases not working. He didn't know about it at the time. I don't think it makes a huge impact on the matchup though.

The trick is not playing Wario's game. ROB can force Wario to fight on his terms.

Overswarm · Nov 24, 2008

Grab release to d-tilt to dash grab can often put him hanging over the edge... this results in a grab release that lets you jump and nair or u-smash. Win.

JCaesar · Nov 24, 2008

Hmm I didn't know that. That's a guaranteed CG?

Overswarm · Nov 24, 2008

JCaesar007 said:
Hmm I didn't know that. That's a guaranteed CG?

It's the standard grab release to d-tilt. It is guaranteed to piss off your opponent and can't be punished, and if they get hit and trip you can do a dash grab.

DRaGZ · Nov 24, 2008

I like fighting Wario. It was easy enough so that when I fought Futile I actually did okay, Futile's just a way better player than me so I lost, but only by a stock at around 70%.

DMG · Nov 24, 2008

Hmm... Idk about Wario vs ROB. Best ROB I have played so far was Sudai, and I know I had an easier time with the fight since I probably had more ROB experience than he had Wario experience.

I think it is maybe 50-50, probably 55-45 for Wario IMO. ROB has a hard time hitting Wario with a kill move, his projectiles don't really phase Wario much (Even when you try to play with them near the edge), he has some issues landing with Wario below him, and even some of the simpler strategies for ROB are harder than normal to pull off with Wario being so versatile in the air and with Chomp ruining a lot of spotdodging tactics for ROB.

Also OS, I don't think grab release to dtilt will work if we just try to shield immediately. If you go for a regrab, we can spotdodge, if you do an attack, we already have our shield up. It's more like a guessing game, but I'm comfortable with my options even when released that close to ROB.

Of course, this is all IMO, so feel free to discuss this with me. I might not be able to respond fast; I'm in NY currently and typing this all on a Lobby computer.

BMX · Nov 24, 2008

Overswarm said:
It's the standard grab release to d-tilt. It is guaranteed to piss off your opponent and can't be punished, and if they get hit and trip you can do a dash grab.

Now everyone is going to take advantage of wario lol

Well I'm a Wario main and I hope I can contribute enough.

Wario is a master of mindgames, hands down. Dealing with one can be a dangourous effort due to the fact that ROBs Fair is the only fast ariel that can keep up with Warios ariel game, which is all Wario is. But thats not his only option. The spammable Laser and gyro keep him in check and racks damage rather quick. A really good ROB will use this to the max and even when he is close, he'll know how to space himself from Wario. Dsmash Uptilt Dtilt Fair keep him in check with such amazing speed and little lag. Nair is a great way to make a shield over an ariel wario so that he can stop the flow of combos. Not only that, the grab release to dtilt adds to kill Wario nice and easy. These are the pros.

There are several cons though. A good Wario will take advantage of mindgames and pressure ROB to make a mistake. Its a wait and punish technique used alot to make up with no projectiles. Wario will make ROB go to the air and rack up damage. Nair Fair Bair and the bite can be dangerous cause it comes out quick. THe finisher will always be these moves: Fsmash, Uair, a half charged fart, and rarely upsmash(weird?). These gurantee a kill to ROB and need to be looked forward to when ROb is at least 130%(especially when they havent been used in the match) The gyro can be stopped by the bite and can be useless for glidetossing purposes because of that bite. Another problem that i like to take advantage of is the fact that ROB cannot dodge during up B. When a ROB is in position, a smart wario would have saved a half charged fart or more and kill him when ROB attempts an ariel attack.IT SHOULD BE AVOIDED BY ROB!

Overall, its an interesting matchup that in my personal opinion, is still in ROBs favor. He will still of to put up a fight because a wario does not go down easy like that.

60-40 ROBs Favor thats my opinion and yall can disagree with me if you like.Personally I dont have much of a problem fighting ROB because its all about playing smart.I would like to face more though!

BMX · Nov 24, 2008

OH YEA JCEASER I dont see u alot dude. CHUS THanksgiving tourney=U and me MM possibly? I know im better than last time! AND I OWE U ONE FROM LAST TIME!

A2ZOMG · Nov 25, 2008

I'd say the matchup on paper looks like it's easily ROB's favor. By how much? I'd need to play a Wario in this matchup to be more confident about this.

But seriously, ROB is a good aerial fighter, and he outranges Wario pretty significantly, and while Wario may have good combos in the air, so does ROB. I agree Wario does better in the juggling from below department, and this is probably ROB's biggest weakness in the matchup, one that Wario can capitalize on with an Up-air when it's time to KO ROB. However, I can't imagine that it will be that easy to rack on damage to ROB considering that ROB has some pretty good answers in the air to some of Wario's most common damage dealers due to outranging them.

The fact that Wario can't afford to struggle out on a grab means that ROB can get in quite a few grab attacks when he gets a grab, and it's not very hard for ROB to get a grab in general when you consider his huge grab range. This should help ROB a lot in scoring KOs against Wario with his KO moves less diminished in this matchup, which he might need considering Wario has good recovery. ROB however I will point out is probably one of the better characters at intercepting Wario's recovery. Well-aimed lasers can punish the Bike, not to mention the usual aerials offstage.

ROB's spotdodge game I can see doesn't work in this matchup very well. I don't consider it that big of a deal, although it means he's just not using as many D-smashes in this matchup.

If ROB is looking for a KO, retreating N-air as Wario is approaching sounds pretty viable to me.

soloSHADOWROB · Nov 25, 2008

Futile says its 50/50
As do I

A2ZOMG · Nov 25, 2008

What reasons does he give, besides being too good? =P

DRaGZ · Nov 25, 2008

I dunno Shadow, I think Futile's just hella good.

JCaesar · Nov 25, 2008

rockguy1234 said:
OH YEA JCEASER I dont see u alot dude. CHUS THanksgiving tourney=U and me MM possibly? I know im better than last time! AND I OWE U ONE FROM LAST TIME!

Yeah BMX I'll MM you this weekend.

Overswarm · Nov 25, 2008

Wario doesn't have as many opportunities in this matchup, but he can capitalize better than ROB can. Keep that in mind.

DMG · Nov 25, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
The fact that Wario can't afford to struggle out on a grab means that ROB can get in quite a few grab attacks when he gets a grab, and it's not very hard for ROB to get a grab in general when you consider his huge grab range.

Actually, we can struggle to get out, just that pressing up or jump is risky. Also, his grab range isn't really that large, and ROB is gonna have a hard time getting a grab. Besides, what good does ROB get from a grab? Really not much if the Wario isn't trying to jump break or attack you immediately once he gets free. ROB's throws also aren't much to cheer about, but that is a different story.

A2ZOMG said:
If ROB is looking for a KO, retreating N-air as Wario is approaching sounds pretty viable to me.

Until Wario retreats his approach/airdodges if he isn't using an attack. Or just simply shielding if you are running on the ground works fine usually. ROB's best way to kill IMO isn't from a Nair but an Usmash; less startup time and usually would be less stale (if at all) compared to Nair.

Also, I would say 50:50 probably, neither side is really showing a clear cut advantage, but IDK it might be 55:45 if the Wario is playing really safe. He's just too hard for ROB to kill reliably IMO, but ROB also has some good points that shoouldn't be excluded just because he isn't spectacular at killing, so I would go with 50:50.

JCaesar · Nov 25, 2008

ROB's usmash has great power, but it's near impossible to land on Wario (or any character for that matter) unless the Wario is dumb enough to jump break from a grab. It's too slow and has too little horizontal range.

Despite Wario's great recovery, ROB can gimp him. Laser and gyro both knock him off the bike, and ROB can just hover by the ledge and throw out fairs and bairs, which beat all of Wario's aerials. Once the bike is gone Wario's recovery is very easy to stop.

This isn't the reason why I think the match is in ROB's favor though. It's mostly the way ROB's tilts **** all of Wario's approaches, especially if he's standing under a platform.

A2ZOMG · Nov 25, 2008

dr.mario guy said:
Actually, we can struggle to get out, just that pressing up or jump is risky. Also, his grab range isn't really that large, and ROB is gonna have a hard time getting a grab. Besides, what good does ROB get from a grab? Really not much if the Wario isn't trying to jump break or attack you immediately once he gets free. ROB's throws also aren't much to cheer about, but that is a different story.

Powershield an aerial -> Dashgrab. Works pretty well if you ask me.

ROB's throws get people off stage easily and do 10%, which is a pretty significant positional advantage for him. U-throw KOs at high percents. D-throw has *almost* set knockback.

Until Wario retreats his approach/airdodges if he isn't using an attack. Or just simply shielding if you are running on the ground works fine usually. ROB's best way to kill IMO isn't from a Nair but an Usmash; less startup time and usually would be less stale (if at all) compared to Nair.

Wow, no. U-smash has TOO many positional constraints. He's only landing that from an air break grab release. N-air punishes dodges, has huuuuuuuuge range, and stuff.

F-smash is also better than U-smash for KOs and can be used to intercept aerial approaches.

Now that I think about it, offstage however, ROB does have a pretty significant advantage over Wario due to having ways to counter the bike (lasers), and then following up. Since Wario really can't challenge ROB's aerials, too bad for him if ROB reads an air dodge.

TheTantalus · Nov 25, 2008

For anyone who thinks this matchup is close, try this

Play a top ranked R.O.B. at battlefield and and try to approach him while he is standing in the center

you've got to work so hard to get an approach it is almost not worth it- but wario doesn't have a choice, he's got to approach because he can't camp R.O.B.

I say this matchup is somewhere between 60-65 in the favor of R.O.B. Even though JCaesar's wario beats me sometimes. JCaesar's wins because he is smarter and has more experience, but it is a lot harder because the matchup is tough. Wario can't camp, can't approach very well and doesn't really out prioritize R.O.B. with any of his aerials. One thing I will say for Wario, is if he gets a good approach he will make minced meat of R.O.B. quickly, but that's not enough to balance the matchup.

DMG · Nov 25, 2008

TheTantalus said:
For anyone who thinks this matchup is close, try this

Play a top ranked R.O.B. at battlefield and and try to approach him while he is standing in the center

you've got to work so hard to get an approach it is almost not worth it- but wario doesn't have a choice, he's got to approach because he can't camp R.O.B.

I say this matchup is somewhere between 60-65 in the favor of R.O.B. Even though JCaesar's wario beats me sometimes. JCaesar's wins because he is smarter and has more experience, but it is a lot harder because the matchup is tough. Wario can't camp, can't approach very well and doesn't really out prioritize R.O.B. with any of his aerials. One thing I will say for Wario, is if he gets a good approach he will make minced meat of R.O.B. quickly, but that's not enough to balance the matchup.

BF is not that hard for Wario to approach ROB on, his SH's don't place his entire body above the platforms, and he has an easier time juggling ROB there since he has platforms to help him land faster and lets him go back into the air faster.

I've played some pretty good ROB's so far on BF, Luigi's Mansion, and I wanna say either Smashville or FD, and I've always come out on top even on some of ROB's better stages. IDK if it's because I'm a better player, or that I had more experience in the matchup (I usually know what to do even if I haven't played very many mains of a character), but I just don't see how ROB has the advantage over Wario. I don't have any trouble with his projectiles (even when recovering), I don't have a problem even with some stuff like Edgecamping, and I always live til past 130-150% vs ROB since it takes them forever to land a kill move.

As for Usmash vs Nair, IDK I think a surprise Usmash is harder to see coming/avoid, while Nair has better hitboxs and duration. I just usually do not die from Nairs since I can see when they are coming, but it is quite a bit more flexible than Usmash, so I guess it's a matter of preference.

Mr.E · Nov 26, 2008

It's not the short-hopping that a problem for ROB, he can defend/punish those approaches anyway with a tilted FTilt or SH FAir before Wario can even get close enough to shield pressure. The platform removes all of Wario's other options. He can't full-hop to get into that ~45-60 degree angle where ROB's tilts don't reach or double jump to bait ROB into whiffing an attack that Wario can punish, as he'll just land on the platform. It stops Wario from weaving around like a madman, which is basically how Wario needs to operate to get inside everyone's superior range. ROB's game is too good at stopping Wario's pitiful ground approach and he doesn't grab-release Wario to the air, so the platforms really aren't doing him any good in this matchup.

Aside the fact that large platforms make it hard on Wario to approach, I think the (other) big key to this matchup is that ROB can go toe-to-toe with Wario in the air. Wario has an excellent shield pressure game that doesn't phase ROB because he can challenge him in the air and win. Yet, any hesitation to approach will result in getting chipped by projectiles. Wario has a range problem against everyone, so it's not like that's all she wrote, but ROB is rather well-equipped to deal with his crap. (Fast forward aerial, big range, Bike-halting projectiles...) Furthermore, ROB is one of the few characters with effective edgeguarding against him.

rockguy1234 said:
Another problem that i like to take advantage of is the fact that ROB cannot dodge during up B. When a ROB is in position, a smart wario would have saved a half charged fart or more and kill him when ROB attempts an ariel attack.IT SHOULD BE AVOIDED BY ROB!

The issue with this is that Wario telegraphs his intentions very early. He can't even really get under ROB unless he has a half/full Waft ready, since he otherwise needs to use the Bike for vertical recovery (which would prevent him from attacking ROB), making it obvious what he's trying to do.

It's still a perfectly good attack, after all it kills very early, Wario just won't have any easier time landing it than any other match-up.

JCaesar · Nov 26, 2008

ROB doesn't really have trouble getting back to the ground, because at any time he can fly off to the side, drop down, and come in low to the ledge. And his up-B is really not that vulnerable, since he can quickly cancel it with a fair which will outprioritize any of Wario's aerials anyway.

My neutral stage of choice vs Wario is Battlefield. Just hide under those side platforms, it cuts his approaches in half. Not to mention you might get a lucky usmash for a low % kill if he's messing around on the platforms. There's really no other reliable way to land an usmash.

Counterpicks: I dunno, Frigate is always a safe pick, but Wario doesn't rely on edges as much as some other characters, and you have to be careful of the low ceiling which is better for Wario than it is for ROB. The platforms are a big help though. I personally like Delfino vs Wario but I couldn't tell you why

soloSHADOWROB · Nov 26, 2008

DRaGZ said:
I dunno Shadow, I think Futile's just hella good.

Maaaaan you have no idea how good he is lol
Its crazy in this game there have only been 2 people able to just drain me so quickly in a set and that is Teba and Futile.
I have to work so hard to hit him cuz hes always jumping around and ADing its just hard
But I know what your saying
I talked to him and he believes its 50/50
As do I
Im sticking with his descision cuz we hes the best Wario lol

DRaGZ · Nov 26, 2008

soloSHADOWROB said:
Maaaaan you have no idea how good he is lol
Its crazy in this game there have only been 2 people able to just drain me so quickly in a set and that is Teba and Futile.
I have to work so hard to hit him cuz hes always jumping around and ADing its just hard
But I know what your saying
I talked to him and he believes its 50/50
As do I
Im sticking with his descision cuz we hes the best Wario lol

I remember playing you guys at a Triweekly at UCSD a long time ago after Futile won UCLA VI. seigehyland and I played doubles against you and Futile, and we lost, but I was like "man, futile ain't that hard".

And then I got him in singles and got *****.

He's all up in my head!

But yeah, that's why I think it's mainly because it's Futile, because every other Wario I have seen at tourny hasn't even gone close to as good as Futile was that time, and I'm sure he's loads better now, and I'm almost entirely positive that it was because of his ability to just read me like a book. I think he may be biased because you are also a hella good R.O.B. and he plays you all the time and you know each other really well, so that may be the case you feel they're 50/50.

R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #3: Wario

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