The captain falcon grab release possibillity thread (under construction)

this thread was wogrim's idea, as making a topic about each individual character would create too much topics and would be unnecissary, so thanks wogrim for the idea

This thread will eventually sum up everything that is possible after a grab release on each character when they escape through the air. For now, not alot is known, but with everyone's help and offcourse my own, we will complete this list

The format will be:
Character name
falcon's arials - if they work/don't work/seem to work(need more testing)/don't seem to work(need more testing)
possible to chaingrab out of grab release - yes/no

here's the list (who is far from finished, please test what you can test and contribute as much as you can)

Mario
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work (needs more testing)
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - seems to work (needs more testing)
CG - seems like a 'no'

DK
Nair - seems to work
Fair - seems to work, but can probably be airdodged
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - seems to work (probably could be outprioritised/outranged by one of dk's arials though)
Uair - seems to work
CG - seems like a yes :D

Link
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a 'no'

Samus
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

ZSS
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work (I got it to connect once, but that was probably just luck or bad DI)
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

Kirby
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - seems to work (only flubbed though, and could maybe be airdodged)
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - seems to work (SH>quickly second jump>Dair)
Uair - seems to work
CG - no

Fox
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

Pikachu
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

Marth
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work (maybe only flubbed, but probably not)
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

G&W
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - seems to work (could maybe be airdodged)
CG - seems like a no

Luigi
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work (needs more testing)
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - seems to work (needs more testing)
CG - seems like a no

Diddy
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

Zelda
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - seems to work
CG - seems like a no

Sheik
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

Pit
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - doesn't seem to work
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - doesn't seem to work
CG - seems like a no

MK
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - works (to regrab from 0-40)
CG - yes
-Dashed U-smash works(the only way to escape is to do a Double jumped air dodge)
-dash attack(Either hit box)- if you hit with the second hit box of the dash attack you can chain them
Dash attack(2nd hit) stops working at 25-30%. once you hit that mark, MK goes into an animation allowing him to air dodge. He has to be quick though because if he doesn't he'll hit the ground allowing a Fast falled

Falco
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

squirtle
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG - yes

Ivysaur
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - seems to work(more testing is needed)
CG -

Charizard
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - seems to work(more testing is needed)
CG -

Ike
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Snake
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Peach
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - seems to work (more testing is needed)
CG -

Yoshi
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Ganondorf
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

IC
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - seems to work (although desyncing would probably never let you grab long enough for a grab release)
CG - no (even if it was possible, desyncing would just let the one not grab hit you)

DDD
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Wolf
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Lucario
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Ness
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Sonic
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Bowser
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Wario
Nair - works
Fair - works
Bair -
Dair - works (possible to CG with Dair>jab out of grab release at certain percents. thread:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208868)
Uair - works
CG -

Toon link
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair - works
CG -

Rob
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Olimar
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Captain falcon
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

Jigglypuff
Nair - doesn't seem to work
Fair - seems to work (but most likely be air dodged so probably not)
Bair - doesn't seem to work
Dair - doesn't seem to work
Uair - seems to work (needs more testing)
CG - no

Lucas
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Dair -
Uair -
CG -

remember: even if it seems to work it could end up beeing easily airdodged or out ranged/prioritised by an attack. just don't believe it until it's thoroughly tested on a human player (so after the 'more' testing is done)

This thread will be uploaded as much as possible (sorry, but I don't feel like bolding all the characters names right now )

Credits:
God-is-my-Rock: info for meta knight
Ville: chain grab on ness (must keep hitting him till he releases>regrab)
Ref: for clearing up that ness cannot be chaingrabbed by falcon

lolwario...

now i know how to finish them off...
GR -> KNEE
:D

MK- the follownig is possible

-U-air to regrab-from 0-40
-dash attack(Either hit box)- if you hit with the second hit box of the dash attack you can chain them
-regrab
-Dashed U-smash works(the only way to escape is to do a Double jumped air dodge)

grab release chaingrab on ness, air release chaingrab on squirtle.

God-is-my-Rock said:

MK- the follownig is possible

-U-air to regrab-from 0-40
-dash attack(Either hit box)- if you hit with the second hit box of the dash attack you can chain them
-regrab
-Dashed U-smash works(the only way to escape is to do a Double jumped air dodge)

Click to expand...

Ville said:

grab release chaingrab on ness, air release chaingrab on squirtle.

Click to expand...

thanks for the info I'll edit the OP and edit a credits section (with you guys in it offcourse)

I'll be testing some more later today, but I can only test on cpu's for now, so all I can provide is 'seems to work' and 'seems not to work'

when I find a human opponent, I'll test what is really inescapable

till then, everyone please keep testing as much as you can yourself

BTW, Dash attack(2nd hit) stops working at 25-30%. Wants you hit that mark, MK goes into an animation allowing him to air dodge. He has to be quick though because if he doesn't he'll hit the ground allowing a Fast falled knee.



Oh yeah, BTW, Captain falcon can only forcibly air release about 8 character(I can't remember which ones)


You should only have the 8 up there. It's pointless to have the other characters up there. The chance an aerial grab release will happen to them is slim to none.

I believe we went through the fact that captain falcon can't chain Ness back in the thread it said he could.

I hope you guys succeed with this thread though.

God-is-my-Rock said:

BTW, Dash attack(2nd hit) stops working at 25-30%. Wants you hit that mark, MK goes into an animation allowing him to air dodge. He has to be quick though because if he doesn't he'll hit the ground allowing a Fast falled knee.



Oh yeah, BTW, Captain falcon can only forcibly air release about 8 character(I can't remember which ones)


You should only have the 8 up there. It's pointless to have the other characters up there. The chance an aerial grab release will happen to them is slim to none.

Click to expand...

thanks I'll edit the OP later
and yes you are right, but it's best to test everyone to make sure imo and also a list showing all info is always good

Ref said:

I believe we went through the fact that captain falcon can't chain Ness back in the thread it said he could.

I hope you guys succeed with this thread though.

Click to expand...

oh, that could be true indeed I believe you, but could you please post the link to the topic in wich that is said, or a link to a vid that shows how ness escapes?

and thanks, I hope we succeed too

Here is the thread, towards the end the topic creater states that Ness probably can escape. After I posted that he could.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199786

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5588141&postcount=7

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5619843&postcount=24

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5619358&postcount=23

Just the thread if you want to read it all, and the 2 post saying that Ness can / most likely can escape.

Last one sounds weird basically he meant it only works if your Ness doesn't DI right.

Ref said:

Here is the thread, towards the end the topic creater states that Ness probably can escape. After I posted that he could.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199786

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5588141&postcount=7

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5619843&postcount=24

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5619358&postcount=23

Just the thread if you want to read it all, and the 2 post saying that Ness can / most likely can escape.

Last one sounds weird basically he meant it only works if your Ness doesn't DI right.

Click to expand...

I see..
thanks for the links
and just to make sure, we are talking about the CG involving that one keeps hitting ness till he escapes right? (not that he escapes through the air)
I guess we are talking about the same thing and I'll edit it into the OP
sorry for the misunderstanding

Edited: the CG on wario at certain percents (using grab release>Dair>jab>grab)
thread about this:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208868

possible more possibillities after squirtles grab release (hyphen smash/DA and grab release>run off stage>sweet knee(needs certain positioning)/Uair/first hit of the Nair)
thread about this:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209026

ToKnee I would like to borrow some of your data. I could just add mine in this one. I can't get Dk upwards to get an U-Air. Was Dk on the edge or something?

UzakiuzuG said:

ToKnee I would like to borrow some of your data. I could just add mine in this one. I can't get Dk upwards to get an U-Air. Was Dk on the edge or something?

Click to expand...

we should make an agreement about what we should do (what is best for us to do) I'll send you a profile message.

And yes, DK was probably on the edge (don't know for sure, its been a while. I'll test agan later)

Alright knee thats cool

hey knee, you should make a section for edge grab releases, since yuo can do some things out of it (like the sheik edge guard)
nice list so far

I think we should get this updated with new stuff and we should start testing more. And to my understanding, the CG on MK is with boost grabs, maybe include that.

**** the Falcon boards are alive right now

Maybe this should be in the potential thread, but I've been wondering if we can do stuff out of the 'grounded' grab release (the one that happens when they release while you hit them) at ledges where they won't drop immediately and grab the edge, such as on platforms or the right side of Frigate Orpheon (the flipping Metroid level). In one of the Falcon vs Sonic videos Ally 'ground' released Sonic on Delphino straight into the water and then spiked him.

I also think there might be some good IC-specific gimp potential with a grab release.

Edit: I mean like they get dropped over the edge of the platform and we fallthrough/run off and aerial.

Wogrim said:

Maybe this should be in the potential thread, but I've been wondering if we can do stuff out of the 'grounded' grab release (the one that happens when they release while you hit them) at ledges where they won't drop immediately and grab the edge, such as on platforms or the right side of Frigate Orpheon (the flipping Metroid level). In one of the Falcon vs Sonic videos Ally 'ground' released Sonic on Delphino straight into the water and then spiked him.

I also think there might be some good IC-specific gimp potential with a grab release.

Edit: I mean like they get dropped over the edge of the platform and we fallthrough/run off and aerial.

Click to expand...

I think you can do ground release to up-B on Ness, even with EIDI.

Also, I was thinking about up-B, since it's really quick it should crest some new comboes. It works on Wario, and the great thing is it works an BF on Wario.

wogrim brought up a nice topic i was recently thinking of.... this can lead to all sorts of new strategies regarding counterpick stages for falcon against chars he has trouble with..... an example would be picking kongo jungle and ground releasing an opponent into the water which can = instant death if done at the further left edge, or a spike by the klaptrap or whatever that kremling is called lol.... i did it once, worked perfectly... also you guys, to make grab releasing near edge easier, try to use some of these strategies:
* although falcon doesnt have a legit universal chain grab on anybody, his fthrow > fthrow works wonders if not redicted by your opponents.... the running regrab, if connected, will cause falcon to slide a bit and will help you get to the edge fast

*falcon's dthrow also works wonders if you bait grab, what i mean is this: first you land a grab, dthrow, and wait in place for a few secs.... now your opponent will have a reaction to your grab, and although his reaction may vary depending on the char he is using (a fox might shine stall to prevent a regrab, a metaknight might use up b and try to attack you, etc.) the usual common reactions are these:
1) air dodge. Definitely the most common and the best one for us, since you can easily regrab them with a dashed grab after you bait the air dodge and run after them as they are falling
2) attack. Not as common specially for laggy chras such as snake, but some people still do it if they see you trying to grab too often
3) jump. Pretty much the alternate of air dodging...
Now when your opponent does one of these three, you have to observe what they did and play accordingly. Try your best to punish each of those alternatives and force them into getting regrabbed by mindgames. with this in mind, dthrow chaining will get much easier

* now with those two strategies in mind, you should be able to chain a few grabs and get your opponent to the edge and do what you have to do to edge guerd them accordingly, but remember not to be repetitive, mix up the two grabbing styles and mind game your opponents with speed and prediction as you play them.

i hope this helped

DoB04 said:

wogrim brought up a nice topic i was recently thinking of.... this can lead to all sorts of new strategies regarding counterpick stages for falcon against chars he has trouble with..... an example would be picking kongo jungle and ground releasing an opponent into the water which can = instant death if done at the further left edge, or a spike by the klaptrap or whatever that kremling is called lol.... i did it once, worked perfectly... also you guys, to make grab releasing near edge easier, try to use some of these strategies:
* although falcon doesnt have a legit universal chain grab on anybody, his fthrow > fthrow works wonders if not redicted by your opponents.... the running regrab, if connected, will cause falcon to slide a bit and will help you get to the edge fast

*falcon's dthrow also works wonders if you bait grab, what i mean is this: first you land a grab, dthrow, and wait in place for a few secs.... now your opponent will have a reaction to your grab, and although his reaction may vary depending on the char he is using (a fox might shine stall to prevent a regrab, a metaknight might use up b and try to attack you, etc.) the usual common reactions are these:
1) air dodge. Definitely the most common and the best one for us, since you can easily regrab them with a dashed grab after you bait the air dodge and run after them as they are falling
2) attack. Not as common specially for laggy chras such as snake, but some people still do it if they see you trying to grab too often
3) jump. Pretty much the alternate of air dodging...
Now when your opponent does one of these three, you have to observe what they did and play accordingly. Try your best to punish each of those alternatives and force them into getting regrabbed by mindgames. with this in mind, dthrow chaining will get much easier

* now with those two strategies in mind, you should be able to chain a few grabs and get your opponent to the edge and do what you have to do to edge guerd them accordingly, but remember not to be repetitive, mix up the two grabbing styles and mind game your opponents with speed and prediction as you play them.

i hope this helped

Click to expand...

There is an area in my guide which has almost this exactly in it, I'll copy paste it here:

If the opponent does this > you do this

Everything on D-throw
D-throw is an important attack. It can be followed up no-matter what the opponent does. Almost. Here is the guide. This will work up until about 60%, but that's good, considering this attack is for damage building.

D-Throw >
Nothing > U-air or N-air > Jab.
AD > Running SH FF AC N-air > Jab.
Aerial (or attack that doesn't change momentum) > Falcon Kick
Jump > Running FH U-air

jabs would the be cancelled to regrab.

yeah but that part only talks about dthrow, mixing up dthrow and fthrow is crucial to getting your opponent more confused and succeed to get them to the edge quicker....

can you grab release -> dtilt -> upb ness?

Player-3 said:

can you grab release -> dtilt -> upb ness?

Click to expand...

no, Dtilt doesn't combo into an up b

if they airdodge then cant you just delay it for mindgaming? :D

Out of any throw besides UThrow for me they most often jump. They can airdodge if you try to chase so I let them come back down near the ground and try to knock them offstage (so they have to recover without 2nd jump, which increases chances of gimping).

For my grounded grab release thoughts I forgot that if you do it at the very edge (which can be done with dashing grab because you slide a bit as you grab/hold them) they don't autograb the ledge, which means it can be pretty useful. Opponents usually seem to jump right away (in my experience). Airdodge or attack is extremely risky for them, although some might wait a bit before jumping. You can go for a walkoff knee right away (which works if they don't react ASAP) or wait and see what they do, then try to gimp it. A walkoff other aerial could be better depending on what they do.

yeah wogrim, if you apply that strategy to a good counterpick stage such as jungle japes (lol i said kongo jungle in my other post xD) you can get easy kills by throwing them into hazardous places such as that stream, and there may be other places where doing this is useful.... but you also keep in mind that other chars can do this as well, so you have to be cautious... this can prove to be a lifesaver in tournies when you have to face a hard opponent, it can get you a few easy kills if they arent careful
also, i like ground releasing them on the edge and go for a falling bair aiming towards the stage, gets you an easy stage spike most of the time if they aren't careful.... sometimes, they just fall to their death since they are constantly trying to break free and smash all sorts of buttons lol....

what i like to do agaisnt people i dont play often is just do d throws, and just stand there and see what they do, then it becomes easy to punish also works for other throws but i really only use dthrows xD
(if they jump out, airdodge etc.)

wow I didnt know falcon was that tall he can jump release alot of characters

A bit of a necrobump, I know, but I have some questions:

Are these air releases or ground releases? Because the only possible ground release combos you could have would be on the earthbound boys and in which case, if the frame data I saw is correct, you could use Jab, Dash attack, and Dtilt (Dtilt said 11 frames. EB Boys have an extra 10 frames from a ground break, but it takes 2 frames to dodge or pull up a shield).

EDIT: Realized that was a bit of a stupid question above as it states air attacks, but w/e. Still points out that it isn't fully clear.

Also, are you testing ledge releases? Some characters have different ledge releases then their normal air release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKafg2n5Wc&fmt=18
Release at 1:50; probably pretty reliable on at least some characters.

Obviously not Falcon, but this is the kind of ground release stuff I was talking about. I know we can't CG people to the edge like DDD, but it would be nice to know what our options are if we find ourselves there (dashing grab can put us at the very edge). I'm envisioning walkoff knees or walkoff BAir stagespikes, depending on where the opponent second jumps to and what their up-B is. For certain opponents maybe an instant edgeguard would be better than either of those.