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Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #17: Sheik
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
urdailywater
Smash Hero
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I don't have to many fights with Shiek.. she's fast.. that's one thing to watch out for..
But doesn't have a too good of a projectile.. I'd just say hit her with projectiles then go for the kill..
Not too familiar with any good Shieks though..
But doesn't have a too good of a projectile.. I'd just say hit her with projectiles then go for the kill..
Not too familiar with any good Shieks though..
Toon Link has a stupidly strong fsmash and a really good bair. His projectiles are kinda not as amazing as usual against Sheik's speed and needles. He's gonna have to cover himself well on recovery though, since the path of recovery for him is relatively predictable.
Toon Link thankfully for you guys can't get tilt-locked (much). If Sheik lands an ftilt she'll probably get two at most and then lead into dsmash, aerial, or utilt. Careful though, if she's still being ftilt-centric in her play, then she's definitely setting it up to combo into usmash at a KO %, which is relatively low against Toon Link.
Zelda could be trouble for you too, but I guess she's not being discussed in this thread...?
Toon Link thankfully for you guys can't get tilt-locked (much). If Sheik lands an ftilt she'll probably get two at most and then lead into dsmash, aerial, or utilt. Careful though, if she's still being ftilt-centric in her play, then she's definitely setting it up to combo into usmash at a KO %, which is relatively low against Toon Link.
Zelda could be trouble for you too, but I guess she's not being discussed in this thread...?
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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I usually just SDI or whatever and try to Dair Sheik during tilt lock. But if it doesn't work even once, I just don't Dair.
Grabbing the edge quickly is important against Sheik. So is tether hogging.
I'm not a big fan of her needles do I try to either shield, or let my auto-shield (...>_> thing...uh...the actual shield that TL holds. Idk what else to call it) try to block them.
I'm pretty sure Sheik can needle TL's Spin attack, so be wary when recovering. Needling TL's tether shouldn't be that hard either. Sheik could to try Bair the tether recovery, so watch out for that.
Sheik's DAC is ridiculously long, but she probably won't use it for much more then killing.
She can't kill very well, so you might want to expect a zelda switch at near high percents? But if she stays Sheik, just DI well and you should be fine.
All I got for now.
Grabbing the edge quickly is important against Sheik. So is tether hogging.
I'm not a big fan of her needles do I try to either shield, or let my auto-shield (...>_> thing...uh...the actual shield that TL holds. Idk what else to call it) try to block them.
I'm pretty sure Sheik can needle TL's Spin attack, so be wary when recovering. Needling TL's tether shouldn't be that hard either. Sheik could to try Bair the tether recovery, so watch out for that.
Sheik's DAC is ridiculously long, but she probably won't use it for much more then killing.
She can't kill very well, so you might want to expect a zelda switch at near high percents? But if she stays Sheik, just DI well and you should be fine.
All I got for now.
Redson
Smash Journeyman
Bomber's Two Cents:
That vanish. That god**** vanish. Comes out of god**** nowhere, and I hate it to death because I never know where it's coming from. Otherwise, the needles are always a problem.
Redson's Two Cents: As a n00bzor Shiek player, all I have to saBomber's Two Cents:
That vanish. That god**** vanish. Comes out of god**** nowhere, and I hate it to death because I never know where it's coming from. Otherwise, the needles are always a problem.
Redson's Two Cents: As a n00bzor Shiek player, all I have to say is when you get into an F-tilt, DI. DI like hell. Get the hell out before we decide to throw in a nice tasty U-Smash. Some Shiek's camp with her good old needles. According to bomber, who is right next to me, being motionless causes the shield to block the needles automatically. But who wants to stay still in an already slow brawl match?
Toon Link has the advantage of range. Sword>Shiek's hands. Problem with Shiek is that all of her attacks are fast.y is when you get into an F-tilt, DI. DI like hell. Get the hell out before we decide to throw in a nice tasty U-Smash. Some Shiek's camp with her good old needles. According to bomber, who is right next to me, being motionless causes the shield to block the needles automatically. But who wants to stay still in an already slow brawl match?
Toon Link has the advantage of range. Sword>Shiek's hands. much longer reach. Problem with Shiek is that all of her attacks are fast, kinda coming out of nowhere. For a good understanding of just how fast her attacks really are, see her frame data, if you REALLY want to do some research. It can be located here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178230
Another thing from Bomber: For all the aggressive Toon Links, abuse the Zair. Love it, marry it, breathe it, sex it. It's that good seeing as Shiek is such an aggressive character, and the Zair could help with the range factor. It also is a nice mindgame.
If you're unsure of your ability, stay the hell away from the ledge. Shiek's air game is simply too good to risk on that thing. Don't edge hog unless you know you can get away with it. If you aren't confident with your skill, don't stay on any longer than you have to.
This was four cents from two horrible, horrible newbs. I hoped this helped SOMEHOW. (If not, hey, I tried. >.>)
That vanish. That god**** vanish. Comes out of god**** nowhere, and I hate it to death because I never know where it's coming from. Otherwise, the needles are always a problem.
Redson's Two Cents: As a n00bzor Shiek player, all I have to saBomber's Two Cents:
That vanish. That god**** vanish. Comes out of god**** nowhere, and I hate it to death because I never know where it's coming from. Otherwise, the needles are always a problem.
Redson's Two Cents: As a n00bzor Shiek player, all I have to say is when you get into an F-tilt, DI. DI like hell. Get the hell out before we decide to throw in a nice tasty U-Smash. Some Shiek's camp with her good old needles. According to bomber, who is right next to me, being motionless causes the shield to block the needles automatically. But who wants to stay still in an already slow brawl match?
Toon Link has the advantage of range. Sword>Shiek's hands. Problem with Shiek is that all of her attacks are fast.y is when you get into an F-tilt, DI. DI like hell. Get the hell out before we decide to throw in a nice tasty U-Smash. Some Shiek's camp with her good old needles. According to bomber, who is right next to me, being motionless causes the shield to block the needles automatically. But who wants to stay still in an already slow brawl match?
Toon Link has the advantage of range. Sword>Shiek's hands. much longer reach. Problem with Shiek is that all of her attacks are fast, kinda coming out of nowhere. For a good understanding of just how fast her attacks really are, see her frame data, if you REALLY want to do some research. It can be located here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178230
Another thing from Bomber: For all the aggressive Toon Links, abuse the Zair. Love it, marry it, breathe it, sex it. It's that good seeing as Shiek is such an aggressive character, and the Zair could help with the range factor. It also is a nice mindgame.
If you're unsure of your ability, stay the hell away from the ledge. Shiek's air game is simply too good to risk on that thing. Don't edge hog unless you know you can get away with it. If you aren't confident with your skill, don't stay on any longer than you have to.
This was four cents from two horrible, horrible newbs. I hoped this helped SOMEHOW. (If not, hey, I tried. >.>)
imdavid
Smash Journeyman
sheik is an aggressive character? o_O well maybe against TL since he can outcamp her
a confident sheik who knows this matchup well wouldn't try to change into zelda as she can gimp TL well, so vary your recoveries with TL's ninja like projectiles and try not to get a bair to face.
and don't try to SDI tilt locks
they don't work, just use regular DI. Try to DI up and towards and hope you can jump on sheik's head
TL's DJ hitbox will make it hard for sheik to approach with given bair as ankoku said, so play defensively and as usual play smart. i heard you TL players were really good at that so just frustrate the sheik and force openings
a confident sheik who knows this matchup well wouldn't try to change into zelda as she can gimp TL well, so vary your recoveries with TL's ninja like projectiles and try not to get a bair to face.
and don't try to SDI tilt locks
they don't work, just use regular DI. Try to DI up and towards and hope you can jump on sheik's headTL's DJ hitbox will make it hard for sheik to approach with given bair as ankoku said, so play defensively and as usual play smart. i heard you TL players were really good at that so just frustrate the sheik and force openings
Yeah Sheik is angressive character.... if you are Redson. Only cuz he's onesidded with his style. He doesn't camp he goes head on which makes him easy to punish. I'll admit he doesnt roll as much anymore but he still has a predictable style and ---->pay attention to these important words read my post carefully before getting on my butt<------- if you know how to do an excellent spacing game you will recieve little or no damage from Redson's attacks, all the does is spam F-tilt and try to get you with the tilt lock. he sometimes uses his needed and sometime persues but overall is decent but like I said earlier, his style is easily punishable.
Redson
Smash Journeyman
We're not talking about me. We're talking about Shiek's in general. Please let it be noted that my style is actually used by other people, and I was just trying to give advice. >.>
David was curious as to seeing why or how Sheik was agressive, but like I told oyu last night TL has edgegame for one win. Range for another, avoidability is close to even but otherwise TL is definatly in the favor for this match up.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
TL outranges sheik. Can put up a really nice proyectile wall. And kills sheik faster than she can kill him. She can gimp him but smart TLs are hard to gimp simply because we can rang and throw bombs to interrupt u. Shek can get gimped pretty easily too since if shes far enough and u edgehog well u know. Sheik can molest us with needles but in the end we will win the camping war so sheik has to approach. Sheiks be careful of our uptilt as it will combo at low percents into another one then into bair. Sheik is faster than us though. Her nair and fair come out at ridiculously early frames. Nair in frame 2 and fair in frame 3. Our nair comes out in frame 6 as does bair. So thats a plus for sheik. Our zair outranges everything sheik has. Toon Links be careful of ftilt at 90 ish percents because if its decayed enough it will lead into an usmash and into death. So in conclusion:
Sheik's pros:
* Faster running speed
* Faster aerials
* CAN gimp us if we dont play smart
* Usmash tipped kills TL very early
* better at close range
TL's pros:
* More range
* Can also gimp sheik
* Zair combos are leet lol
* We can set up a proyectile wall that sheik will have to find a way to get through and thats when we punish her.
* Our usmash kills sheik rather early too as does fsmash
* Fsmash cannot be escaped by sheik even with DI
* Cannot be ftilt locked by more than 2-3 tilts
* we are annoying
* We are toon XD
I use both of them so this is not a biased post.
So in conclusion:Sheik's pros:
* Faster running speed
* Faster aerials
* CAN gimp us if we dont play smart
* Usmash tipped kills TL very early
* better at close range
TL's pros:
* More range
* Can also gimp sheik
* Zair combos are leet lol
* We can set up a proyectile wall that sheik will have to find a way to get through and thats when we punish her.
* Our usmash kills sheik rather early too as does fsmash
* Fsmash cannot be escaped by sheik even with DI
* Cannot be ftilt locked by more than 2-3 tilts
* we are annoying
* We are toon XD
I use both of them so this is not a biased post.
I know right? Like it matters. All of the cast basically can hit him anyway so the whether or not the sword is disjoint is pointless. xD
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Sheik's favor. No bias, seriously the TL matchup is one I deal with A LOT.
The favor is not by much, however. I'd say its a 60:40. In the end it comes down to speed. Althugh TL has a better camp game, his projectiles are slow and predictable for te most part,. Onee you get used to the goomerang, its no longer a problem to approach TL effectively. In close range, Sheik's fast attacks give her the advantage.
Sheik can gimp TL. Sure, 'a smart TL won't let himself get gimped.' How about 'a smart Sheik will see through TL's ninja projectiles, and gimp anyway...'
'Smart' arguments aren't all that valid in my opinion. It's just a very situational thing. A Sheik main learns to specialize in gimping to KO effetively. This is in order to offset her lack of KO power. TL isn't even close to being one of the hardest characters to gimp.
Now the way I'm posting makes it sound like Sheik owns TL, but that is definitely NOT the case. I'm just adding my personal experiences to the discussion. Some Sheik perspective.
It's a pretty even matchup in my opinion, but in the end I think that speed determines the winner in this one.
The favor is not by much, however. I'd say its a 60:40. In the end it comes down to speed. Althugh TL has a better camp game, his projectiles are slow and predictable for te most part,. Onee you get used to the goomerang, its no longer a problem to approach TL effectively. In close range, Sheik's fast attacks give her the advantage.
Sheik can gimp TL. Sure, 'a smart TL won't let himself get gimped.' How about 'a smart Sheik will see through TL's ninja projectiles, and gimp anyway...'
'Smart' arguments aren't all that valid in my opinion. It's just a very situational thing. A Sheik main learns to specialize in gimping to KO effetively. This is in order to offset her lack of KO power. TL isn't even close to being one of the hardest characters to gimp.
Now the way I'm posting makes it sound like Sheik owns TL, but that is definitely NOT the case. I'm just adding my personal experiences to the discussion. Some Sheik perspective.
It's a pretty even matchup in my opinion, but in the end I think that speed determines the winner in this one.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Its not that big a disadvantage if any its close to neutral maybe shieks favor because of speed.
Is it just me or are ppl forgeting projectiles more or less skrew up shiek...
Is it just me or are ppl forgeting projectiles more or less skrew up shiek...
Since when did projectiles ever "skrew up shiek?"
They give her even less trouble than they give Marth trouble.
They give her even less trouble than they give Marth trouble.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
really?
Always thought they skrew up her flow like nearly everyone else in the cast w/o a reflector...
EDIT: forgot dont think they screw MK up either...
Always thought they skrew up her flow like nearly everyone else in the cast w/o a reflector...
EDIT: forgot dont think they screw MK up either...
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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It creates less of a hassle for characters opposing approaching a charecter with projectiles IF they have aerials that come out fast. It makes them easier to set up.
And "clank" to cancel projectiles, leaving you exposed if your near (Maaarthhhhh).
And catch bombs and stuff.
And "clank" to cancel projectiles, leaving you exposed if your near (Maaarthhhhh).
And catch bombs and stuff.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
I forgot Marth >_> I hate his lack of care about projectiles...
But point remains I dont see this match up through my cloudy 2am eyes as 40:60...
more like 45:55 but it really matters not cause 5% is nothing to be so serious about so meh...
Where TLMarth's pro's and con's of this match up correct?
Shiek needles do out proritize our bombs when they are fully charged right?
But point remains I dont see this match up through my cloudy 2am eyes as 40:60...
more like 45:55 but it really matters not cause 5% is nothing to be so serious about so meh...
Where TLMarth's pro's and con's of this match up correct?
Shiek needles do out proritize our bombs when they are fully charged right?
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Why outprioritize bombs. That's such a waste. I just catch em. Annoys the TL and gives me a free explosive distraction to use.
Honestly the boomerang and arrows annoy me more. That boomerang... ugh. I've been hit by enough 'returning rang > usmash' comboes to hate the boomerang. Now I see them coming all the time though :D
Most of the kills I get on TL are gimps though, and believe you me, this TL knows how to use his projectiles while returning. He can even consistently mess up my vanish glide >_> yes..with the boomerang. I have to thank him for giving me the experience to gimp KO a projectile smart recovering TL.
Honestly the boomerang and arrows annoy me more. That boomerang... ugh. I've been hit by enough 'returning rang > usmash' comboes to hate the boomerang. Now I see them coming all the time though :D
Most of the kills I get on TL are gimps though, and believe you me, this TL knows how to use his projectiles while returning. He can even consistently mess up my vanish glide >_> yes..with the boomerang. I have to thank him for giving me the experience to gimp KO a projectile smart recovering TL.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
hmmm i never said to do just wonderin if it does...
but thats a nice view upon it boomerange is a nice projectile...
Does shiek worri about arrows, SHDA?
but thats a nice view upon it boomerange is a nice projectile...
Does shiek worri about arrows, SHDA?
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Arrows only work to somewhat constrict her approach, or slow it down rather. Arrows are TL's method of 'controlling' Sheik's approach speed if you will.They move slow, but on the counter they don't need any charge to go a good distance.
It'll constrict the Sheik in the sense that Sheik will either approach through the air (or using platforms on a platform stage) or shield dash in.
In the end, I've never really bee ressured much by arrows to be honest. It isn't that the TLs I play don;t use them, believe me they do... a lot. It's just always that random boomerang for me.
As for SHDA...what is that? short hop dair? Sorry for my lack of TL lingo >_>
It'll constrict the Sheik in the sense that Sheik will either approach through the air (or using platforms on a platform stage) or shield dash in.
In the end, I've never really bee ressured much by arrows to be honest. It isn't that the TLs I play don;t use them, believe me they do... a lot. It's just always that random boomerang for me.
As for SHDA...what is that? short hop dair? Sorry for my lack of TL lingo >_>
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
SHDA is the bread and butter of my TL spam. It basically is a Short hopped arrow into a cancelled one n the ground. And u can also reverse it so that when u shoot the cancelled arrow u give ur back to ur opponent. Thats really useful against approaches since bair is our ultimate punishing move. Hope that helped in any way.
It basically is a Short hopped arrow into a cancelled one n the ground. And u can also reverse it so that when u shoot the cancelled arrow u give ur back to ur opponent. Thats really useful against approaches since bair is our ultimate punishing move. Hope that helped in any way.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
ooo riiight the double arrow... sorry for some reason I couldn't see that in the abbreviation..
Yea an SHDA is definitely annoying, but I was including that when speaking of the mathcup. I should've mentioned it I suppose, but I kind of assumed all TLs do the shda when shooting arrows at this point, like Fox's shdl in melee.
Overall Sheik has a lot of favoring matchups, and a good amount of highly unfavorablke matchups. Even matchups are rare for her... in this case TL is in that area.
The introduction of Zelda changes things quite a lot though, as it shifts mathcups towards the Zelda/Sheik a lot... as expected since it's essencially an in-game switch, problem is most people maining either Sheik or Zelda cannot effectively dual main.
buuuut this is a Sheik discussion, so assuming the other player being 100% Sheik like the melee days, the matchup is fairly even with a slight favor to Sheik, simply because when she gets the flow going, she has the speed to follow through. Especially a Sheik smart enough to utilize empty short hops, vanish, and nairs. The day I intoduced more of those 3 things into my game was the day my Sheik levelled up quite a lot :D
Yea an SHDA is definitely annoying, but I was including that when speaking of the mathcup. I should've mentioned it I suppose, but I kind of assumed all TLs do the shda when shooting arrows at this point, like Fox's shdl in melee.
Overall Sheik has a lot of favoring matchups, and a good amount of highly unfavorablke matchups. Even matchups are rare for her... in this case TL is in that area.
The introduction of Zelda changes things quite a lot though, as it shifts mathcups towards the Zelda/Sheik a lot... as expected since it's essencially an in-game switch, problem is most people maining either Sheik or Zelda cannot effectively dual main.
buuuut this is a Sheik discussion, so assuming the other player being 100% Sheik like the melee days, the matchup is fairly even with a slight favor to Sheik, simply because when she gets the flow going, she has the speed to follow through. Especially a Sheik smart enough to utilize empty short hops, vanish, and nairs. The day I intoduced more of those 3 things into my game was the day my Sheik levelled up quite a lot :D
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Quoted cause this is what I thought...
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Exactly. That nair and bair is what TL needs against Sheik, because Sheik won't have much trouble getting past the projectiles.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Ujum nair and bair and zair are what we need against sheik but even then an occasional SHDA isnt bad.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Well thats another thing about Sheik. She doesn't really have any bad stages. She does well on all of them really, so for counterpicking I think you'd want to pick a stage where you do well. I'd avoid platform stages though. Sheik can utilize them them fairly well...
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^ sasukes is right. Rainbow cruise is good for us while severely gimping sheik.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
severely gimping?.... I wouldn't go that far. Sure it calls for Sheik to act more smart with her movement on that stage, but severely gimping? Not really...
Severely gimping is Ike on Frigate. That's severely gimping.
Severely gimping is Ike on Frigate. That's severely gimping.
How often do you have to recover a far distance on Rainbow Cruise? The only characters that stage gimps are the ones who can't move around much.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Sheik has good aerial movement and speed. There are also plenty of platforms. She won't get gimped nearly as much as you think sasuke. When i think raindbow cruise, I see Link and Ganondorf getting gimped....then again..that's any stage
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Could a counter pick be Castle Siege?
I'll say one thing......Toon Link can get into mid-range and then zone Sheik fairly easy. Arrow cancels mixed with bombs and his piece of s*** zair, can be really hard to get through.
Like it was mentioned earlier..........Sheik has little trouble killing Toon Link whether it be by Zelda, decaying her ftilt, or offstage. Even vanish is going to kill far earlier than normal, so Toon Link really has to maintain his proper spacing. Once you get me in that zair range, it really starts to become a guessing game for me. Do I shield and risk getting grabbed? Do I spotdodge and risk a bomb to the face or a delayed arrow/aerial?
The good thing for Sheik is that she has the speed to actually deal with Toon Links spacing game and she has better killing power. I think this matchup is slightly in Sheiks favor..............I really believe that.
Like it was mentioned earlier..........Sheik has little trouble killing Toon Link whether it be by Zelda, decaying her ftilt, or offstage. Even vanish is going to kill far earlier than normal, so Toon Link really has to maintain his proper spacing. Once you get me in that zair range, it really starts to become a guessing game for me. Do I shield and risk getting grabbed? Do I spotdodge and risk a bomb to the face or a delayed arrow/aerial?
The good thing for Sheik is that she has the speed to actually deal with Toon Links spacing game and she has better killing power. I think this matchup is slightly in Sheiks favor..............I really believe that.