Blad01
Smash Lord
Week #17 : Kirby
The little pink thing could apparently kill our bird with only one stone...
Discuss !
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Match-Up Week #17 : Kirby
- Thread starter Blad01
- Start date
The little pink thing could apparently kill our bird with only one stone...
Discuss !
8AngeL8
Smash Lord
I find this matchup really hard, to be honest. Kirby is small enough that he can avoid lasers pretty well, which means he'll have an easier time approaching than many characters.
It's difficult to chain-grab kirby, you'll have to chain fast fall dairs into regrabs, but good DI on the kirby's part can get him out early. He, on the other hand, has some good low percent grab combos on you.
Up close, Kirby packs quite a punch. His smashes come out fast, and will be killing you at pretty low percents. Watch out for Fsmash out of shield. Considering how quick Kirby is, it has pretty broken knockback.
Kirby is beastly in the air, as well. Fortunately, so is Falco. Try to take the fight to the air, if you can. Falco is more maneuverable than Kirby when airborne, and Falco's aerials will be winning out.
While on the ground, I've found that Ftilt and jab combo are your most important moves. Kirby doesn't have fantastic range while grounded, so throw these moves out to keep him away.
For the love of god, don't let him get your lasers. His are so much better than yours. SHTL? WTF? His are low to the ground, so no crouching under them like he can do to yours.
My final verdict: 65:35 Kirby's advantage.
It's difficult to chain-grab kirby, you'll have to chain fast fall dairs into regrabs, but good DI on the kirby's part can get him out early. He, on the other hand, has some good low percent grab combos on you.
Up close, Kirby packs quite a punch. His smashes come out fast, and will be killing you at pretty low percents. Watch out for Fsmash out of shield. Considering how quick Kirby is, it has pretty broken knockback.
Kirby is beastly in the air, as well. Fortunately, so is Falco. Try to take the fight to the air, if you can. Falco is more maneuverable than Kirby when airborne, and Falco's aerials will be winning out.
While on the ground, I've found that Ftilt and jab combo are your most important moves. Kirby doesn't have fantastic range while grounded, so throw these moves out to keep him away.
For the love of god, don't let him get your lasers. His are so much better than yours. SHTL? WTF? His are low to the ground, so no crouching under them like he can do to yours.
My final verdict: 65:35 Kirby's advantage.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
I main Kirby. I'd say its pritty even until Kirby takes Falco's lasers. Kirby with Falco lasers is borderline unfair.
Bottom line I'd go with 55-45 advantage Kirby without lasers. If Kirby takes your lasers you're screwed.
Bottom line I'd go with 55-45 advantage Kirby without lasers. If Kirby takes your lasers you're screwed.
wangston
Smash Lord
Kirby f smash is horrible good. It owns you. D tilt can almost always be followed up with a fsmash. To chain grab kirby it's best to get him close to 0%, that way you get two free grabs, then you need to dair, ff, jab, grab and you can do that two more times or until Kirby is around 45%. At first I tried to just plain grab after ff but it doesn't work he can grab you first, so you must jab him to get another grab in.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I agree with that as well 65:35 including the laser stealing. Just going to add that kirby also has a pretty decent edgeguarding against falco. Dair kills attempts to recover if falco gets hit by it.
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
falco can chaingrab kirby if kirby is at 0% and do some pretty good damage....that's really all falco has for an advantage. Kirby can duck to avoid lasers, copy his powers to laser back(helps well) and "chaingrab" falco also when falco is at 0%. UPTILT works very good on falco 
so yea id say 65:35 in Kirbys favor
so yea id say 65:35 in Kirbys favor
§witch
Smash Lord
He can be CG'ed, but only to like 30%, finish it with gatling and there's 50+%. It's about even imo, Kirby can gonzo combo us to like 35%, and has better recovery.
Denzi
Smash Master
Well, although I use falco, I don't have experience against Kirby, but I seccond Kirby and have experience against a good falco with him. So I'll be approaching this from a Kirby point of view. Here's what I have to offer:
It's tough for Falco to CG Kirby.
Grab at 0% by Kirby = about 45% to Falco.
Gonzo combo can be ended with a surprise Inhale making it easier to steal lasers.
Kirby + lasers = ****, especially when Falco is stuck offstage.
Tough for Falco to laser Kirby because he's so small.
I'm pretty sure Kirby's Bair clanks with the first half and hits out of the seccond half of Phanasm.
Falco using Firebird = almost gaurenteed stock for Kirby.
Kirby,'s Utilt = awesome.
Kirby is tough to spike.
Falco is easily gimped by Kirby.
Kirby has a better taunt. Hands off my bread!
That's all I could think of for now. The advantage is clearly Kirby's.
It's tough for Falco to CG Kirby.
Grab at 0% by Kirby = about 45% to Falco.
Gonzo combo can be ended with a surprise Inhale making it easier to steal lasers.
Kirby + lasers = ****, especially when Falco is stuck offstage.
Tough for Falco to laser Kirby because he's so small.
I'm pretty sure Kirby's Bair clanks with the first half and hits out of the seccond half of Phanasm.
Falco using Firebird = almost gaurenteed stock for Kirby.
Kirby,'s Utilt = awesome.
Kirby is tough to spike.
Falco is easily gimped by Kirby.
That's all I could think of for now. The advantage is clearly Kirby's.
Ah my, favorite marshmallow.
It's a very even matchup if you throw one move out of the window: neutral B. He's almost as bad as Gaw if he gets the lasers, maybe worse.
Also play the game you force your opponents to.
DON'T GET GRABBED
Gonzo-51% Fresh without inhale/45% with
It's a very even matchup if you throw one move out of the window: neutral B. He's almost as bad as Gaw if he gets the lasers, maybe worse.
Also play the game you force your opponents to.
DON'T GET GRABBED
Gonzo-51% Fresh without inhale/45% with
Mikey7
Smash Lord
Gonzo combo isn't legit - you can smash DI and jump out of the up air and on some characters the up throw.
Still this is Falco's worst matchup...clearly 65:35
Still this is Falco's worst matchup...clearly 65:35
Clai
Smash Lord
I have only been to a very small number of tournaments, but I had the opportunity of playing a Falco main, and once I got a better feel to the matchup (read: got owned the first match), I'd say the matchup is a lot closer than what you guys are saying.
Grabs: Falco does have some nifty grab set-ups on Kirby. I didn't even know how good the dair to pivot-boost grabs really were until I got smacked around by them. Your grab set-ups are just as good as our grab set-ups, except we have more room to improvise and do more things afterwards, so I wouldn't say there's too much of an advantage for Kirbs.
Off-stage: Use your fast falling and recoveries to your advantage. Our drill-spike isn't like Marth who can just insta-spike you as he pleases. We really shouldn't be spiking you unless you have to use your firebird or if you aren't a good ways above the ledge.
Lazers: As good as our tilts and smashes are, our aerials are where we shine. Use the lasers to keep us confined to the ground so that we can't move around and use any aerial mindgames. Even if we can't get hit by them, the possibility of having lasers leading to a smash or a grab really limits us in what we are capable of doing. And yes, Kirby with lasers is hax.
Spiking: If you can get above us, Kirby can't do much. Our vertical moving speed makes it really simple for Falco to spike Kirby, especially since our up-air has start-up time.
Best Stage for Falco- Yoshi's Island. That freaking hurt.
Verdict (Falco-Kirby): 50-50 without lasers/35-65 wth teh lazors.
Grabs: Falco does have some nifty grab set-ups on Kirby. I didn't even know how good the dair to pivot-boost grabs really were until I got smacked around by them. Your grab set-ups are just as good as our grab set-ups, except we have more room to improvise and do more things afterwards, so I wouldn't say there's too much of an advantage for Kirbs.
Off-stage: Use your fast falling and recoveries to your advantage. Our drill-spike isn't like Marth who can just insta-spike you as he pleases. We really shouldn't be spiking you unless you have to use your firebird or if you aren't a good ways above the ledge.
Lazers: As good as our tilts and smashes are, our aerials are where we shine. Use the lasers to keep us confined to the ground so that we can't move around and use any aerial mindgames. Even if we can't get hit by them, the possibility of having lasers leading to a smash or a grab really limits us in what we are capable of doing. And yes, Kirby with lasers is hax.
Spiking: If you can get above us, Kirby can't do much. Our vertical moving speed makes it really simple for Falco to spike Kirby, especially since our up-air has start-up time.
Best Stage for Falco- Yoshi's Island. That freaking hurt.
Verdict (Falco-Kirby): 50-50 without lasers/35-65 wth teh lazors.
wangston
Smash Lord
You fail to mention the kirbycide. If kirby goes up a stock at all don't try edge games with him he will try to suck you up and take you with him, even if you do break out of it he can foot stool you and you are dead. Also if you are on the same stock but he is at a considerably higher % he will try to kirbycide. Falco has horrible recovery so if you get sucked in off the stage you are history. I would say it's better to stay in his mouth and make him die as opposed to breaking out and him living.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Personally, I've always been of the opinion that Falco's laser game is far better than Kirby's only for the reason that we have a reflector and the pink one does not.
Denzi
Smash Master
Falco can't realy risk a reflector when he's FALLING TO HIS DEATH!!
Offstage lasers (w/Kirby) = more amazing than most here are giving them credit for.
Very true.
The thing here is, we do have a reflector. The problem is, Kirby doesn't NEED lasers. He can use his laser game any time he wants when it's convenient. We need them to win.
Even more so, his laser game is so much better than ours in the air (which is pretty much where we're all at all the time anyways.)
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
But if Kirby steals our laser game, then he loses Kirbycides and Inhale kills. We're free to engage up close without having to worry about being spit five miles from the stage and having firebird gimped.
Denzi
Smash Master
I've got one thing to say to that:
Haaaaaiiiiiii.
just to add my2 cents
Kirby missing with his inhale puts him in a very punishable setting, its not that hard to see it coming anyways. Though if he does streal ur lasers well......... attack like crazy to knock'em out, though this will most likely to ur death.
How i see it is, kirby has the advantage if you are on the offensive, but from my way of playing what makes Falco so good is his defense game, which leads to some pretty uber openings. Some people are acting like Falco's lasers are useless(against kirby) which is a key component to Falco's defense, but Falco can still lay down heavy SHL/SHDL's which will severly limit kirbys means of approaching. So when Kirby moves up close on the ground by ducking etc.... kick out your shine, which he will probaly see coming which will lead to a guard/dodge, then most kirbys F-smash out of it, easy to predict so shield/dodge to CG with dairs linked in. Then repeat, and u can change it up a lil each time. This is not unbeatable or anything but i see it as a good kirby counter.
but if the kirby decides to head to the sky through the SHL/SHDL barrage, even better. Though kirby has some good ariel, IMO Falco has the better, so shred him with ur air game.
Kirby does have the advantage cause neither of those are unbeatable kirby strategies, but i hope it helps
i feel its a 40-60 kirby.
oh and an easy way to win with Falco is not get knocked off the edge
BUHAHAHAHAHAHA
Kirby missing with his inhale puts him in a very punishable setting, its not that hard to see it coming anyways. Though if he does streal ur lasers well......... attack like crazy to knock'em out, though this will most likely to ur death.
How i see it is, kirby has the advantage if you are on the offensive, but from my way of playing what makes Falco so good is his defense game, which leads to some pretty uber openings. Some people are acting like Falco's lasers are useless(against kirby) which is a key component to Falco's defense, but Falco can still lay down heavy SHL/SHDL's which will severly limit kirbys means of approaching. So when Kirby moves up close on the ground by ducking etc.... kick out your shine, which he will probaly see coming which will lead to a guard/dodge, then most kirbys F-smash out of it, easy to predict so shield/dodge to CG with dairs linked in. Then repeat, and u can change it up a lil each time. This is not unbeatable or anything but i see it as a good kirby counter.
but if the kirby decides to head to the sky through the SHL/SHDL barrage, even better. Though kirby has some good ariel, IMO Falco has the better, so shred him with ur air game.
Kirby does have the advantage cause neither of those are unbeatable kirby strategies, but i hope it helps
i feel its a 40-60 kirby.
oh and an easy way to win with Falco is not get knocked off the edge
BUHAHAHAHAHAHA
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
I would say this match is 60-40 Kirby. Falco has a nice lil combo he can do from 0% to Kirby but kirby has the nicer one. IMO Falco should never go to the air on kirby, that's where I always beat Falcos. Kirby has wicked priority in the air can only be beaten by Falco when the bird is above him. On the ground Falco has his ftilt, utilt, and reflector. His ftilt and reflector outrange everything but fsmash. Utilt is just as fast as Kirby's so when Kirby get close to try to utilt you, Falco can fight back in the same manner. Approaching isn't that difficult for kirby to do. Even while standing, he only takes one of the SHDL which can be easily powershielded. Silent lasers are a bit tricker to time, but that opens up the air for Kirby. Really this match would be even except that Kirby has an easier time killing Falco. A missed reflector leads into a connected fsmash for Kirby which can kill in double digits when fresh. Bair gimps, and copied lasers force an ^B which is instant death for Falco. Falco's DAC cause's some problems and is usually his best best for killing. Fsmash is strong, but is easier to counter as its easier to predict since he can't slide when he uses it like his DAC. This match isn't that bad but slightly in Kirby's favor.
Vlade
Social Outcast
I don't have much time at the moment to do a full analysis so I'll just add a few things which I think people may have already said about this difficult match-up:
- If kirby gets your lasers, you are doomed. SHTL is an incredible brick wall to get around. It is possible to reflect all 3 lasers with one shine though.
- Kirby's throw combo is devastating. 38% + whatever the kirby players feels like doing afterward. Just make sure you smash DI away from kirby when he does the uair after the fthrow to avoid the anticipated utilt.
- Kirby can literally hammer you out of your phantasm. Otherwise an easier option for him would be the bair which is still a devastating edgeguard.
- If you try and outcamp kirby, he can just crouch to reset the tables to even. If this happens and you're on lower %, stay. But if you're on higher % I'm afraid you're going to have to approach. SH dair is probably the way to go.
reflector!! kirby can duck though
clowsui
Smash Legend
you can sdi out of the throw combo iirc
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Kirby's taunts are all way too obvious/annoying to be any surprise. So the only time he would ditch the lasers is if you're very far away already.
Meaning we can resume our long range game. Kirby can't just switch back and forth quickly between Inhale and Lasers. He's got to pick one, and the switch from one to the other is long and obvious.
If he's got Inhale, hit and move. Be quick to reset spacing if it looks like Kirby is getting the upper hand. Work Lasers and IAP.
If he's got Lasers, get inside and pressure. Your air game and ground game are more than a match for Kirby's, so keep in close.
I mean honestly, what the hell approach options does Kirby have? Bair and Utilt deal with literally all of Kirby's aerial approaches, and Ftilt outranges everything he has on the ground. If those options fail, SHDair autocancels and hits Kirby out of most of his attacks.
Falco's Upsmash kills Kirby at about 115%. Just sayin'.
On a side note, I believe this match-up to be one of the few 50/50s in the game. I'm playing Devil's Advocate because there's just a bit too much Kirby love in this thread.
Blad01
Smash Lord
Well, in my mind this match-up was 30-70. Kirby has just a lot for him, and Falco loses some of his two majors top tier arguments : Chaingrab (Unless we can chainspike Kirby... But even with that, a chainspike is escapable with a roll) and Lasers. He also loses the Spike edgeguard...
So, let's see :
Ground Game : 40-60. Kirby has better Smashs, grab game, speed. His tilts are also pretty good.
Aerial Game : Between 50-50 and 60-40. Falco has a lot of priority in his aerials, and Lasers are still a good choice in the airs.
Off-Stage game : 30-70. Well, no need to explain that
Racking Up Damages : 40-60.
Killing : 50-50.
And if we add Kirbicide, and Inhale... Yeah, i would say 35-65.
So, let's see :
Ground Game : 40-60. Kirby has better Smashs, grab game, speed. His tilts are also pretty good.
Aerial Game : Between 50-50 and 60-40. Falco has a lot of priority in his aerials, and Lasers are still a good choice in the airs.
Off-Stage game : 30-70. Well, no need to explain that
Racking Up Damages : 40-60.
Killing : 50-50.
And if we add Kirbicide, and Inhale... Yeah, i would say 35-65.
§witch
Smash Lord
Guys really, ducking isn't beating us at all, it leaves a stalemate where we're doing something and they aren't, that puts us at a mental highground at the very least. Besides, we can approach while lasering, and just get into IAP range, and hell, even IAP cancel in front of him.
Now, we can SDI the gonzo combo, plus we can get 50-60% on kirby from CG>gatling combo.
Yes, kirby beats us in killing, and edgeguaring/gimping. Inhale isn't exactly easy to land, so don't be a ******* and get inhaled. It's going to happen, but don't make any stupid mistakes leading to you getting inhaled.
I honestly think this is an even match. Maybe 55-45 kirby.
Now, we can SDI the gonzo combo, plus we can get 50-60% on kirby from CG>gatling combo.
Yes, kirby beats us in killing, and edgeguaring/gimping. Inhale isn't exactly easy to land, so don't be a ******* and get inhaled. It's going to happen, but don't make any stupid mistakes leading to you getting inhaled.
I honestly think this is an even match. Maybe 55-45 kirby.
Denzi
Smash Master
I'm with Blad01 on this one.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
We most assuredly do not lose lasers.
Falco's tilts are much better, with the exception of Kirby's uptilt after the combo. Falco's jab also beats every one of Kirby's moves to the punch and the full jab combo pushes Kirby too far for him to retaliate with anything other than fsmash, which is way too slow to be useful in that situation. I disagree and think that the ground game is very much in Falco's favour.
Bair all day long, baby.
For real. I hate that dair.Off-Stage game : 30-70. Well, no need to explain that
See, this is what I really take exception to. We can DI out of Kirby's big throw combo, so where does he get this damage from? Kirby has literally zero decent approach options when fighting Falco, and no good projectile to fight at a distance unless he steals our Lasers. Falco also has several excellent OoS options against Kirby, meaning the already weak attempts Kirby makes at approaching can be severely punished and make the Kirby even more hesitant.
Nyjin
Smash Ace
It's definitely possible though. Just avoid getting swallowed and camp him and force Kirby to approach. Kirby's approach is horrible.
Still an uphill battle, but not as bad as you all say.
55-45 Kirby's Favor.
Still an uphill battle, but not as bad as you all say.
55-45 Kirby's Favor.
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
lol wtf? camp him? kirby can just duck and avoid them lol. A good kirby will make YOU approach.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
not really. all ducking does is avoiding the lasers. if kirby is at higher percent, he's gonna have to approach. and his approach options are all countered by falco imo.
besides, falco can get close while kirby's ducking the laser. this can set up for IAPs, or if falco's close enough, SH dairs.
i think it's about 55-45 kirby.
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
like i said, making falco approach
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
only if falco is at higher percent. if kirby's at higher percent, i dont see any reason for falco to approach.like i said, making falco approach
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
But how would you get kirby to higher percent if he does not approach you?
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
i assumed you meant in the middle of a match >_>
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
rofl
anyways if it was a middle of a match and kirby was losing he would have to approach you (assuming it's a tourny or there is a timer) but while he is ducking what is stopping him from quickly dtilting you once you are close enough....and if you trip from it....lawl
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
uh...IAP? SH dairs? anyways falco outranges kirby on the ground except for fsmash.rofl
anyways if it was a middle of a match and kirby was losing he would have to approach you (assuming it's a tourny or there is a timer) but while he is ducking what is stopping him from quickly dtilting you once you are close enough....and if you trip from it....lawl
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
Im talking about ducking the lasers. You cant be close to kirby(or anyone) and just stop lasering and then SH dair and expect to hit them unless they stand there like a fool.
Seems like you are basing the matchup of a few lil things. This matchup is like 65-35 in kirby's favor.
See how long it takes for a falco to get out of a uptilt "lock" at 0%
Grab "combos" at low percent
At low percent you can dthrow falco and use inhale and almost always get it, that's a easy way to copy his powers.
Kirby can gimp falco easily off stage with bairs and dairs.
Seems like you are basing the matchup of a few lil things. This matchup is like 65-35 in kirby's favor.
See how long it takes for a falco to get out of a uptilt "lock" at 0%
Grab "combos" at low percent
At low percent you can dthrow falco and use inhale and almost always get it, that's a easy way to copy his powers.
Kirby can gimp falco easily off stage with bairs and dairs.