Frame data for grab breaks and Grab stuff... (Jump breaks added!)

Okay so I decided to do this because I was bored.

0% grabbed = 90 frames

Subtracted with an input

C stick = 16! frames you must flick or it will subtract 0 frames
A = 8
Control stick direction = 8
Z = 8
R = 8
L = 8
B = 8
Y = 8
X = 8

??? - It seems that going diagonal removes 16 frames? HOWEVER IF YOU HAD INPUTED ONE OF THE DIRECTIONS THAT IT REPRESENTS IT WILL DO NOTHING.
Meaning if I go North east but went east(Lost 8 frames) it will not take away another 8 or 16 it will take away 0 plus the 8 you did already. So when rotating, diagonals don't matter.

300% grabbed = 600 frames....

Increase 1.7 every percent... Determined by 600-90 = 510
510/300

And 10% = 107 frames.... 107-90 = 17
17/10= 1.7.

Break Speeds held on ground / ground released...

ALL CHARACTERS EXCEPT NESS, LUCAS and DK will recover after being free from a grab at Frame 30.

DK recover - 20!

Ness recover - 40

Lucas recover - 40

Other stuff...

I decided since bowser can do so much stuff to people:

Bowser holding opponent time to recovery after break: 20 frames... This is why DK is invulnerable to Bowser's grab combos.

For everyone else IT'S 30, the same amount of time that Almost all characters recovery from escaping a characters grab this is why other characters don't have ground break release problems besides Ness and Lucas who recover at 40.

EXCEPT FOR SQUIRTLE who has a jiggly puff problem the producers of the game likely forgot a frame for he has a 29 frame recovery when holding his opponents....


JUMP BREAKS:

Mario - 50
Luigi - 50
Peach - 50
Bowser - 50
Donkey Kong - 50
Diddy Kong - 50
Yoshi - 50
Wario - 50! (Kind of sad he only gets it because he is so close to the opponent)
Link - 50
Zelda - 50
Sheik - 50
Ganondorf - 50
Toon Link - 50
Samus - 50
Zero Suit Samus - 50
Pit - 50
Popo - 50
R.O.B - 50
Kirby - 50
Meta Knight - 50
King Dedede - 50
Olimar - 50
Fox - 50
Falco - 50
Wolf - 50
Captain Falcon - 50
Pikachu - 50
Squirtle - 50
Ivysaur - 50
Charizard - 50
Lucario - 50
Jigglypuff - 49 (Lucky)
Marth - 50
Ike - 50
Ness - 50
Lucas - 50
Mr. Game & Watch - 50
Snake - 50
Sonic- 50

Wow everyone but Jiggly puff has a 50 frame jump break...

Jiggly puff has 49 probably a frame went missing back in the production of the game

Analysis

The only reason there are grab releases on jump breaks is because of the Path of certain character's jump breaks....


I still need to get shield stun for my Ness buddies...

Interesting.

Cool. What is the highest amount of inputs you can press at once (theoretically, not practically)? As in, do some of them not work together? Like if you press the C-stick left and the control stick left, does it do 16 + 8 or 8 + 8 (since you're already pressing the direction)?

A,B,X,Y,Z,L,R,C-stick one direction, control stick another direction.

9 inputs. If diagonals count on the c-stick as well, then theorectically you could tap the c-stick back and forth betwenn one set of opposite diagonals, while tapping the control stick back and forth between the opposite set of diagonals (alternating so that you do not get a NE and SE at the same time) for a 16 frame reduction for each control stick click, an 8 frame reduction for each c-stick click, and another 8 frame reduction for each button press.

That is of course as long as these things to not happen on the same frame. But it's still quite a large reduction regardless (16+8+8+8+8+8+8+8+8=80 frame reduction per rep).

Good stuff right here. So basically, what Dark Sonic said can get you out of a grab borderline instantly?

Since the C-stick is technically pressing A and a direction, would C-stick + A be 24 or 16?

can you do some research on when opponents get out of DK's cargo grab and when he can move? it should not be the same as a normal grab release

also, lucas and ness should not have the same grab break lag from exp. as a dk main

^^I really don't know. But that really wouldn't matter unless you happen to press c-stick and A on consectutive frames (which the game would read as holding A for those frames).

And yes, given 1 frame reaction time you'd be able to break out of a grab in 10 frames (since it only takes 9 frames to input all of that stuff)

Seems like that information would be kind of usefull for grabs that you know are coming (like chaingrabs if they don't throw you immediately).

Dark Sonic said:

A,B,X,Y,Z,L,R,C-stick one direction, control stick another direction.

9 inputs. If diagonals count on the c-stick as well, then theorectically you could tap the c-stick back and forth betwenn one set of opposite diagonals, while tapping the control stick back and forth between the opposite set of diagonals (alternating so that you do not get a NE and SE at the same time) for a 16 frame reduction for each control stick click, an 8 frame reduction for each c-stick click, and another 8 frame reduction for each button press.

That is of course as long as these things to not happen on the same frame. But it's still quite a large reduction regardless (16+8+8+8+8+8+8+8+8=80 frame reduction per rep).

Click to expand...

That doesn't actually answer what I was asking.

Another interesting point: how many frames does the C stick take off when it's set to, say, grab? It could be different.

If at exactly the same time A will not count with the c Stick however if you do it at a slightly different time you will be able to C stick + A to get 24 frames. So just press A right after the C stick hits neutral. Don't worry about it to much get as many inputs as you can, as long as you aren't C sticking and A at exactly the same time you will get the A...

I haven't tested with custom controls but seeing that a c stick set to grab or anything else acts like buttons then 8 frames like those buttons.

Dark Sonic knows what he is talking about and

to ripple

No they have exactly the same the reason you say that is because Lucas can get a bit further without Ness doing EIDI, than Ness normally breaking, meaning most attacks will hit him slightly later....

So if i'm reading this correctly, the most effective way to break out of a grab is to mash the face buttons plus L and R while using your other hand to cstick in the 4 diagonal directions?

The most effective way to break is rotating the control stick while flicking the c stick and pressing as many buttons as you can...

ColinJF said:

That doesn't actually answer what I was asking.

Another interesting point: how many frames does the C stick take off when it's set to, say, grab? It could be different.

Click to expand...

I already answered you. You cannot put inputs on the same frame (the game will only read one per frame)

9 inputs in 9 frames is inputting all of the inputs as fast as possible, and you'd just cycle through as much as you could.

This is very interesting, and quite useful. Thanks Ref.

Okay thanks Dark Sonic, I misunderstood what you were saying.

I guess when the C-stick inputs direction+A and such it does that in a way different from actually pressing the two then?

Good job Sakurai give Ness 40 frames to break out of a grab.

I doubt Sakurai was personally involved with making the grab break animations.

Though it is pretty interesting that almost all of them are the same number of frames--is that just a coincidence?

I believe the grab release frames were intentional but I don't understand why they would choose to make Ness/Lucas' so long... Or for the matter DK's so short...

I'm pretty sure it was always 21, 31, 41 frames. Kirk had done this a long time ago for Ike's grab releases.

He was probably counting the frames before the character can shield. Shield comes out in 2 frames therefore frame 42 is the frame where the shield can take hits, while 41 is the frame where you can do any action also the frame of the shield starting up.

40 is the frame where you are done with the whole recovery and 41 is the Next action.

Ah makes sense. Nevermind then. Also interesting with grab breaking. I'll have to remember diagonals

So, wait, is Bowser the only one with a grab break animation (grab release animation is for the grabbed character) that ends at 20? Everyone else's ends at 30? It would be useful to have that data too, I think.

Ref said:

Shield comes out in 2 frames....

Click to expand...

Minor correction: shields (save for yoshi's) come out on frame 1.

Anyways though this is good stuff. Thanks for taking the time to do this .

Ick, rotating the joystick is impractical. I prefer to have good DI when I'm thrown. Hmm I wonder if doing a dance dash with your c-stick might be better than mashing your face buttons tho.

Ok, you say you have to flick c-stick? So if I go back and forth diagnol with the c-stick as it goes through the center that doesn't count? And Im supposing c-stick diagnol doesnt do 24, lol.

Also, why is rotating the joystick more effective then going back and forth diagnolly on the joystick? Will it be canceled out by a c-stick input done at the same time even if they are in different directions say, SE and NW?

PKNintendo said:

Good job Sakurai give Ness 40 frames to break out of a grab.

Click to expand...

hehe i dont think it matters agenst marth players :D
good stuff, ever tryed pressing multiple buttons? are you gona research that too? if so ur amazing lol..

Ussi said:

I'm pretty sure it was always 21, 31, 41 frames. Kirk had done this a long time ago for Ike's grab releases.

Click to expand...

Yeah those were the IASA frames I was getting...because I like IASA frames. :D

Which reminds me, I should probably get back to work on my other thread sometime.

Must...stop...being...lazy... xD

This is useful, thank you for this.

This is an interesting thread.

I like coming to Smashboards and finding actual useful stuff.

Tagxy said:

Ok, you say you have to flick c-stick? So if I go back and forth diagnol with the c-stick as it goes through the center that doesn't count? And Im supposing c-stick diagnol doesnt do 24, lol.

Also, why is rotating the joystick more effective then going back and forth diagnolly on the joystick? Will it be canceled out by a c-stick input done at the same time even if they are in different directions say, SE and NW?

Click to expand...

For the first question, yes, going back and forth with the c-stick would count, as long as it goes through the center.

For the second question, no the input will not be canceled out if they are done in different directions.

Villi said:

Ick, rotating the joystick is impractical. I prefer to have good DI when I'm thrown. Hmm I wonder if doing a dance dash with your c-stick might be better than mashing your face buttons tho.

Click to expand...

The entire point of this is to not get thrown at all, but rather break out of the grab before they throw you. This would be more usefull against characters that like to pummel before throwing.

Most throws do have start up time so if you are playing attention you should be able to adjust the DI before you get thrown...

Point is to break out like dark sonic said, you don't want to have to rely on DI to live. Especially since you could be at a percent a throw kills even with DI.

So,

why wasn't this discussed in melee? Didn't that game have chain grabs as well?

Not off of grab releases....


And Yes players (I think Mew2King specifically) did test how many frames there were in a grab and how much frames each input took off in Melee.

Not to be repetitive, but since I didn't get an answer the first time, I figured I'd ask again:

You've given us the frame data for all the grab releases, both ground and air releases. Awesome.

But you mentioned that Bowser's grab break animation is 20 frames long.

So, if the grab break animation is the animation that the GRABBER goes into during a release, how long is THAT animation for all the characters?

You gave us Bowser and said he can chain release grab because his BREAK animation ends sooner than everybody's RELEASE animation (except DK).

I'm wondering if you could test that out?


It seems to be that everyone but Bowser has a grab BREAK animation of 30 frames, explaining:
1) Why no one else really has ground grab release chains like Bowser (none of them end their break soon enough
2) Why Marth can infinite the Mother boys (his break ends sooner than their release and they land extremely close)
3) Why Yoshi has air release chains (if his break is only 30 frames long while everyone else's air release is 50 frames, it speaks for itself)

But, without actual info, those are just assumptions. I'm wondering if you could provide those 3rd set of numbers?

Subscribed, good stuff

for Jump breaks it may be helpful to test whether they're path causes them to hit the ground in the 50 frames or whether they are way above or just a little, etc.
And if you really have some time I think it would be useful to see how far away the characters that gain control after (or slightly before) hitting the ground would land.

The Halloween Captain said:

So,

why wasn't this discussed in melee? Didn't that game have chain grabs as well?

Click to expand...

It was discussed in melee, it just didn't matter.

None of the chaingrabs in melee required you to pummel your opponent...ever. In fact, people rarely did more than even one pummel because they were afraid that the opponent would break out of the grab (I personally never pummeled my opponent, because throwing them immediately to mess with their DI is much more effective).

But in brawl grab pummels are often used to refresh moves, or to force grab releases (particularly racking damage while waiting for an air release), so this information is more usefull now.

it didn't have grab release CG's as far as I know.

J4pu said:

it didn't have grab release CG's as far as I know.

Click to expand...

This really doesn't effect grab release chaingrabs that much. This just makes you get grab released earlier, but does not get you out of the chaingrab.

Alopex said:

Not to be repetitive, but since I didn't get an answer the first time, I figured I'd ask again:

You've given us the frame data for all the grab releases, both ground and air releases. Awesome.

But you mentioned that Bowser's grab break animation is 20 frames long.

So, if the grab break animation is the animation that the GRABBER goes into during a release, how long is THAT animation for all the characters?

You gave us Bowser and said he can chain release grab because his BREAK animation ends sooner than everybody's RELEASE animation (except DK).

I'm wondering if you could test that out?


It seems to be that everyone but Bowser has a grab BREAK animation of 30 frames, explaining:
1) Why no one else really has ground grab release chains like Bowser (none of them end their break soon enough
2) Why Marth can infinite the Mother boys (his break ends sooner than their release and they land extremely close)
3) Why Yoshi has air release chains (if his break is only 30 frames long while everyone else's air release is 50 frames, it speaks for itself)

But, without actual info, those are just assumptions. I'm wondering if you could provide those 3rd set of numbers?

Click to expand...

Marth NO LONGER chain grabs Ness or Lucas. Marth has a normal 30 frame after grabbing. Marth could do this on Ness before because of his grab range. The time it takes to dash then grab for All characters to reach Ness or Lucas gives then enough time to spot dodge. Charizard can regrab Ness because he can perform a standing grab, much like Marth could have.

Bowser after releaseing an opponent out oh HIS grab recovers in 20 frames while everyone else in 30 (40 Ness/Lucas)... Giving him 10 frames to do what he wants. DK is impervious to this because 20-20 = 0....

Characters can Chain release through air because they have those 20 frames to do anything( 30 - 50 = 20) So unless the opponent gets far enough or HIGH enough NOT TO BE REGRABBED, they WILL be re grabbed, so lets say if every character had the flight path of Wario they all get regrabbed.. If everyone had the flight path of Let's say... Jiggly puff they won't be regrabbed. Its more than Yoshi some other characters can Chain release Meta Knight because of their dashing speed, ability to force a JUmp break (Height/Yoshi), and sometimes even grab range...


All those were answered like you said, in the first place if you took the time to think about it.

All characters recover on frame 30 after having someone break out on them.

Can you find out how many frames a character has who has released from the grab?

AKA

Lucas grabs Marth, pummels, doesn't throw. When he releases Marth, how many frames until Lucas can start his first action?

I don't have the reflexes to know when I've just been grabbed, I'm working on this. This really helps too.