Match-Up Week #2 : Snake

Week #2 : Snake​

(Original Discussion : #28 to #53)

• Behaviour : Snake is very tricky. He will try to rack up damages with all his weapons (Grenades, Mortar, Nikita...) and his Mortar Slide, and his grabs (the most used seems to be the down-throw). To finish you, he will genereally use his UTilt or FTilt.
• His scaring moves : A lot...
  - B move : There are a lot of tricks with the grenades : Grenades + Shield, Grenades + Roll, Grenades thrown on you... If Snake throws them on you, use your Reflector.
  - Mortar Slide : The Mortar Slide is simply how the Snakes move on the ground. You can use your reflector to stop it, your lasers, or simply shield.
  - Utilt and FTilt : UTilt is probably the best of the game. It has insane range, amazing KO potential, and is quick... There is no particulary way to avoid it, besides the shield or the spacing. FTilt is also a scaring move when you are on the sides of the stages. Be quicker, or don't stay here ! (He can kill you at ~85% on the side of FD).
• How to win ?
  - Spacing is essential in this match-up. Use your SHL / SHDL. If he crawls towards you, you have several options :
  -> Short Hop multiple times, waiting for him with a Dair. He your opponent is smart, he will stop to crawl, scared by your most powerful aerial.
  -> Shieldgrab his down-tilt. If he tries to grab you, perform a spott dodge.
  -> Phantasm could also work.
  Don't forget that he is also handicaped while he's crawling.
  - Your Down B can stop his Nikita and his Grenades, and send them back.
  - Chaingrab top spike is very effective. The problem is that a smart Snake will pull out a Grenade. You can just get 2 throws, so be close to a side of the stage.
  - Dair, as always, is a great aerial move to approach, and to gimp his recovery.
  - Grab him during his recovery.
  - Your F-Smash is your most effective Smash. Try to get it after a powershield.
• Counterpick :
  - Final Destination : Allows you to use your laser game as you want, and doesn't have major obstacles.
  - Jungles Japes : Prevent you from dying with a UTilt or a C4 if died up. But on the other hand, pay attention to Ftilt, Bair and Dair. You can **** him wih Phantasm, Lasers, chaingrab to spike.
• Video example : SK92 vs Meep R2
• Match-Up (Average) : 45/55.

This is an easy match IF and only if the snake is dumb enough to get chained grab. If you are playing a smart snake he will stay away from you until 40%. He will just sit there and use nades, he will let them hit him self and he will also try to hit you with him. When you try to approach he will just mortar slide away and pull out more nades. If he doesn't feel like mortar sliding he will just shield drop nades and if you hit him you asplode.

I think it's a 60:40 match up in falcos favor if he is dumb enough to get chain grabbed. However if the snake player is smart he isn't going to let that happen and it's a 60:40 in snakes favor.

Yeah...

Snake (me) can blow up himself in order to prevent CGs.
Falco is probably snakes worst match up, if he gets grabbed he's practically dead.

60:40 Falco.

Get snake in the air. Your aerial game far surpasses snake's, so if your on the ground try to punish him with CG.

He will try to STAY ON THE GROUND.

No. Falco doesn't have the advantage. The Snake board has it as 5/5 but I think it's 55/45 Snake's favour.

All he has to do is pull out a grenade and you can't CG him as you like. Once he's over 40% he has too many advantages: Range, Priority, Weight, Power. Falco only wins in camping and speed but that's not enough to make up for all the thinkgs Snake has on him.

Not true, he can't grenade pull unless the falco screws up.

what? He can do it all the time <_<

Nope, only when the falco waits too long to re-grab. We're talking frames here but yeah.

Yeah it's impossible for Snake to break the cg until after 45%, if falco times his walking grab right snake can do nothing. This is why any smart snake camps his grenades until he is over 45% so he can no longer be chain grabbed.

It's all been said before, but snake has some nasty tilts. Personally, the stage is very dependent on the outcome of this matchup. FD for example. Falco has the clear advantage. It's completely flat and open; so much space for falco to CG. Avoiding a grab is harder than you think snake mains.

That said, I've never lost to a snake (no one I know can really play him), but I can see how he'd be annoying for falco if played right.

Still, the reflector ruins grenades, and the grab annihilates him.

Oh especially grab release on the edge out of a cyfar. It's really hard to get C4 yourself like Meep did in that situation.

Difficulty: 5:5 (neutral)

What to expect:

• At the start of the match a smart snake player will crawl to avoid your lasers.
• Watch out for the mortar slide - it will shut down your space and he will proceed to powerful tilts or jabs.
• Grenades. Firstly he can break out of falco's CG if the CG isn't timed correctly. These are also useful for camping and forcing falco to approach. Snake players will also cook their nades so they explode on impact, even against your reflector. Also be cautious of the grenade strip.
• His ftilt and utilt has GODLY range, not to mention their amazing speed-killing-power ratio. Ftilt has the power of a smash with the speed of a tilt, dealing 21% damage when fresh; although this move probably won't be killing you often because it gets so stale. Snake's utilt can kill at 95% without DI on Final Destination (I think), and snake WILL be saving this move for the kill.
• If you don't pay attention to where Snake places the C4 and mine, you have a much lesser chance of winning.
• His techchase game is put to good use with the dthrow, especially against a predictable opponent.

The Strategy:

At the start of the match, most Snakes will expect you to fire away with your SHDL. Which is probably a good idea. So now Snake will either start camping with grenades to force you to approach, or crawl to mortarslide. To counter the grenades just continue SHDL'ing, it will shut them down. As for the crawl, you have no choice but to approach. Now you could try an IAP but he will easily hit you out of it with a dtilt. I suggest either using a SH dair. If he shields then DI back ASAP otherwise you will be grabbed and *****. by DI'ing back hopefully you will achieve the 'sourspot' of the dair which would be enough to push snake out of his grab range. Of course, then is the time of the match to get the grab yourself for the 40% to spike which could potentially kill him. If you do get the CG, make sure you time it right so he doesn't pull out a nade, and expect him to come back with a cypher close to the stage. Then grab him, but don't attack or throw. This way he will be forced to use his C4 for an extra cypher. Even if he uses his cypher away from the edge after the intial CG he will still be forced to use the cypher. Anyway, after he uses his second cypher spike him for the kill - just remember when he has super-armour so that you ensure you get the KO.

Ok if after 40% you don't get a grab then now is the time to be very defensive. Backflip lasers and SHDL's are good, followed by unexpected IAP's. If possible, try to keep snake in the air because that's where his weakness is. Falco's bair is great for approaching and for sending snake off the stage at higher percents. Don't bother using usmash for the kill - snake is too heavy. If you can get a nair autocancel it to either a jab combo or an ftilt. If you choose the jab combo remember to follow up ASAP with a shine. Remember that spacing is super-important, in fact so important I cannot stress how important it is in this match-up to win. If snake chooses to camp, shine all of his projectiles (nades and nikita). However if he perfectly cooks the grenade you have to shield it - same goes for nikita if he aims it above you then drops it. Also note that DLX will still work at around 50-60% I think, so use it if you have the chance because you aren't going to be killing with the usmash unless snake is at like 160%+. Of course watch out for Snake's spacing game too - he has his incredibly powerful jab combo and ftilt to send you off the edge. If he ever puts down a mine, use your shine at the correct distance to detonate it. Even better, if snake is close but not quite within the mine's proximity, shine him into it . At this percentage you should be using well-spaced damage rackers. I also find that dsmash out of spotdodge or shield works wonders on punishing a careless snake.

Unfortunately Falco's recovery is easily gimpable. Snake has two edgeguarding tools - his mortars and the nikita. Try to sweetspot at all costs, from which you can then follow up with the following: ledge-hopped phantasm (from which you can follow up with a bair to send him out), ledge-hopped double lasers (if snake retreats), ledge-hop shine (will help against mortars especially, not to mention good spacing), and get-up attack to laser-lock (sorry slashtalon, I got this off your video. But anyway only use this if he snake is in the middle of using his mortar edgeguarding, otherwise you'll get sheild-grabbed. Oh and DON'T use this over 100%, because you have double the chance of getting shield-grabbed also remember that snake can tech or airdodge the hit if he is tumbling.)
Anyway snake can easily intercept falco's phantasm with a sh nair or dair if we don't sweetspot. But yeh also be cautious of that when you use ledge-hopped phantasms as well.

Overall, this match DEPENDS on your ability to space, your unpredictability, a strong laser game so long as snake doesn't crouch, your awareness of the mine and C4 and your edgeguarding will also play a key role against snake's (IMO) poors recovery. The CG helps significantly if you can pull it off for quick kills to ease off the pressure.

STAGES

Counterpicks:

• Final Destination - Great for your laser game. The lip can also gimp snake's recovery nicely.
• Smashville: For the same reasons as Final Destination (excluding the lip). However, watch out for the floating platform because Snake loves to place his C4 on it.
• Jungle Japes - This stage is incredible for quick kills. If you dair snake into the water he will die as early as 30%. This stage is also awesome because it BOOSTS your laser game, and is perfect for your phantasms.

Ban These Stages!

• Corneria - The low ceiling on this stage is just asking for falco to be killed earlier by Snake's utilt. This stage doesn't help falco's lasers or CG at all either.
• Brinstar - Getting a gimp kill will be tricky with the lava...
• Norfair - Again, the lava doesn't help out with our spike. Not to mention the platforms are way too short to even perform 2 CG's.

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Copied and pasted Oh and blad, I think now would also be a good time to revive the metaknight match-up thread. It needs to be discussed while the falco boards are on a roll.

i don't exactly agree with SV as a good CP against snake. like you said, his C4+platform=****. also, it is smaller than FD and overall favors snake imo. i don't see any reason to prefer SV over FD for this matchup, but hey, it's not one of the best stages either.
also, i disagree with snake's "poor" recovery. he can fly up, c4 himself, and use the cypher again and by then he'll be too high to gimp/edgeguard. your best bet is usually catch him unaware while he is coming down. however, do cg->spike whenever you say because if he C4's himself after the spike, he takes extra damage, making it that much easier to get the KO, which is imo one of the hardest parts. i usually do the silent laser -> boost smash.

Pick halberd or port town against snake.

XxBlackxX said:

EDIT: japes is not a bad stage to CP, but beware his utilt!

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Japes has a high as **** ceiling lol.

§witch said:

Japes has a high as **** ceiling lol.

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disregard this post. i was probably high when i wrote this >_>

oh and you're right it was my bad. >_> probably high when i wrote that too lol

wangston said:

Yeah it's impossible for Snake to break the cg until after 45%, if falco times his walking grab right snake can do nothing. This is why any smart snake camps his grenades until he is over 45% so he can no longer be chain grabbed.

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snake can just pull 2 grenades at the start of the match and take the damage and you cant do **** about it. after that unless snake is an idiot and stays at the ledge then you cant really cg->spike him.

its 55/45 snakes favor

Hey guys ! I FINALLY found a use for Falco U-Throw yesterday (my favourite throw... It looks awesome).

At mid-high percents (70% - 120%), it's soo good against Snake. As you may know, Snake sucks in the airs, and can be juggled all day.

Basically, when you U-Throw a Snake, what are his options ?

- No DI, or little DI on the side to dodge a laser. Then, he jumps usually, and can Airdodge or Attack. Well, read his action, and grab him again. You can also do what you want, like a smash attack. (But if he pulls out a grenade, you're screwed)
- DI Backwards. It's even easier to read his action here, and you can grab him again usually.
- DI away : Same that DI Backwards, but it's a little harder to chase.

I love U-Throw against Snakes.

That's pretty smart, since snake doesn't have very many options at all when he is descending. Don't forget about his C4 though.

snake help.

I need help vs. snake. This is my hardest match up. The only way I seem to own snake is to pick meta Knight but I love falco.. I want to stay with my favorite character but... I don't understand how to play against him.

A super campy snake. It seems like I can only get a KO when he forgets to DI or gives me an easy Fsmash. If I miss, I get punished by super fast Ftilt or jab or god forbid broken Uptilt.

I space with laser, I try to mix up but this match is still frustrating.*It feels like I have to hit snake way more but if I miss i die by utilt. Which he doesn't even have to use until it's time for a KO which means its always undiminished and impossible to DI.

Help me out!!

Camping, first off. Also, the thing about snake is that he uses jabs and tilts to kill. That means they come out quickly. But look at that utilt of his... sure it comes out fast and is deadly, but notice that ending lag. Spotdodging it or perfect shielding it will leave you good punishing options. His recovery is pretty nice and hard to gimp if he knows how to use C4, but you can still get decent damage on him while he's recovering him or at least push him into bad positions.

Your reflector is dangerous against his nades in a way that Fox and Wolf's can only dream of, and it's really funny to shoot a snake while he's trying to do something with a grenade.

The thing is, you need to be well inside his range to do anything to him (other than your camp game), which limits your ground game considerably. Fortunately your grabs > his grabs, and if you can get him into the air you're on the right track. Snake is slow moving in the air and has slow arials that are punished fairly easily, especially by your nair, dair, and bair.

As for killing, usmash doesn't get a kill on a player with good DI until something like 160%, if the SK92 vs Ally matches are any indication (granted those are with horrible lag so... who knows?). Spike can do it, and generally speaking if you get snake off the stage to the point where he has to C4 recover... he can only do that until about 130% iirc before he starts risking killing himself off the top. Utilt won't kill till like 180% to 200% (stupid Snake being heavy), though the Fsmash is fine.

How to land Fsmash: well, personally I like baiting people into it. Sometimes you can jab combo to fsmash and catch them, but emphasis on 'sometimes.' It's not a real combo and often will get you punished if they see it coming, but I've played against some very good players who have been caught in that. Also a trick that works sometimes (if done right) is dthrow->dash->stutter-stepped fsmash. I don't know what percentages it's really viable at off the top of my head, but I do know that the airdodge many people use to avoid the running usmash will generally get them caught in the fsmash.

It's not an easy matchup, but it's pretty even. We can get damage on snake like no one's business (except DeDeDe), and we can keep him at bay to prevent dying.

Blad01 said:

Hey guys ! I FINALLY found a use for Falco U-Throw yesterday (my favourite throw... It looks awesome).

At mid-high percents (70% - 120%), it's soo good against Snake. As you may know, Snake sucks in the airs, and can be juggled all day.

Basically, when you U-Throw a Snake, what are his options ?

- No DI, or little DI on the side to dodge a laser. Then, he jumps usually, and can Airdodge or Attack. Well, read his action, and grab him again. You can also do what you want, like a smash attack. (But if he pulls out a grenade, you're screwed)
- DI Backwards. It's even easier to read his action here, and you can grab him again usually.
- DI away : Same that DI Backwards, but it's a little harder to chase.

I love U-Throw against Snakes.

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Jump, B reverse nade/c4, Bair?

Lawlmahbawls said:

Jump, B reverse nade/c4, Bair?

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Shield, grab.

I honestly think Falco beats snake....as long as you play gay. Be campy, and if the snake messes up at low percents, CG him. CG owns snake. Snake eats worse than most characters. If you do it right you can definitely get 60% off of snake with a CG->followup.

I personally can't believe the Snake match-up is currently listed as our disadvantage, especially considering how easily we can deal with his whole "nade" fetish.

But I suppose that's what re-visits are for.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

I honestly think Falco beats snake....as long as you play gay. Be campy, and if the snake messes up at low percents, CG him. CG owns snake. Snake eats worse than most characters. If you do it right you can definitely get 60% off of snake with a CG->followup.

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How do you camp somebody who can just crawl under your best camping tool? Besides, you assume the Snake player "to mess up at low percent" to get CGd...now this is on obvious flaw in your explanation, since Snake is hard to grab and it's very situational...you assume the Snake player to mess up, having no grenade to interrupt the CG and to do so on low % ... sounds like you just cherry-pick a situation that's favourable for Falco, since there aren't many in this match-up.
Falco has a lot less room for error: one ftilt (which is ten times easier to hit with than Falcos grab) = 21%dmg anytime in the match. Falco can CG only once and everything else he does doesn't even deal nearly as much damage...or is that fast....or has that much range.

Falco can CG Snake exactly once per stock, can't 0-death him anymore and can be interrupted with a Grenade. Even if Falco gets the CG down perfectly he has by no means an advantage. These 60% lead are the massive difference in KO power. Snake KOs Falco with utilt ~@110% ... Falco needs like 150% with usmash and Snake's utilt is a lot easier to land a hit with than Falcos usmash (or fsmash). Snake deals much more damage after he's out of CG percent. A dthrow tech chase or ftilt are much better than anything Falco has and Falco needs to beat Snake to much higher percent. If Snake manages to deal 30% dmg (which is easy to do) before Falco CGs him, Snake has a considerable advantage.

Even if snake crawls, it's possible to hit him with lasers.

Vlade said:

Even if snake crawls, it's possible to hit him with lasers.

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G&W and Kirby can duck under the laser. Snake crouches even lower. How is that supposed to be possible?

Ledgehopped lasers.

I'm surprised nobody has discussed the dynamics of the cg->spike on snake. If done correctly, the snake can't pull out a nade until 40% or so? However, I think you need to dthrow>dair sooner otherwise the nade will come out and he won't be spiked.

Anyway, at this point, snake has a few options. An inexperienced snake will jump and up b or just up b. This is a free kill for falco. Drop down and djdair and dead snake. Or just fast fall a dair into his cypher, it's pretty easy.

A smarter snaker will jump, and use his down b recovery. He'll probably do it twice, and this will give him enough height to return to the stage with some options. This is still good for falco, because now Snake is at 60 or 70% from one grab.

But that's not all! This is where it get's fun. On his second down b recovery, time a laser to hit Snake right after he drops his mine. It's badass and it scores a kill. Too pro.

lol i love how if a character can crawl, some people think SHL are useless and that the crawl is safe and unpunishable....
Also Gheb if Falco doesnt get a chain grab early on its not a very good falco player, more times than not, falco lands the grab if they are good, so its not really some made up situations odds seem to be in falcos favor.

kook_U said:

Also Gheb if Falco doesnt get a chain grab early on its not a very good falco player, more times than not, falco lands the grab if they are good, so its not really some made up situations odds seem to be in falcos favor.

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grenade, grenade, C4, explode
41%, CG > follow-ups is no longer viable and then you still have to do more damage to snake than he has to do to you before kill percents.

Gishnak said:

But that's not all! This is where it get's fun. On his second down b recovery, time a laser to hit Snake right after he drops his mine. It's badass and it scores a kill. Too pro.

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hmmmmmm......... yeah........ Then the snake uses his up B again. That would only catch a snake by surprise and then he would have to forget he has an up B.

Gheb_01 said:

G&W and Kirby can duck under the laser. Snake crouches even lower. How is that supposed to be possible?

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Vlade said:

Ledgehopped lasers.

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Here's what Vlade is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sYxEqXp8AM&feature=channel

Even while camping, Falco is at high risk. If the snake times it right, a cooked grenade is very hard to avoid and does a lot more damage than a few lasers.